Armor House Rule Needed IMO + others

[joker965]

So the way i see it DDO has broken the AC balance that somewhat exists in the PNP D&D game. (with a good DM and house rules) Creating a situation that allows crazy AC builds in no armor and it really isn't that hard to do.

Things to possibly change IMO.

1. Greatly increase the DR possible from armor and allow it to stack with innate DR from a Barb or whatever. Example: Add the enhancement plus to the DR of ADM armors or other armors like that. So Adm FP+5 would be 8/- or a adm BP+5 is 7/-. Come up with some special armors that are super-reinforced that have like DR 10+enh/Adm or something like that but -2 dex bonus AC. Warforged would need something else here like +1 dr level/3?

2. Because it seems impossible to implement flat-footed and suprise correctly. The dodge and dex and monk AC bonuses are sometimes overpowered. How would any of that work if you don't see that arrow coming from 100 yards at your back? How many attacks can you use this against in one round? Armor is always on your back. Keeping the scale for high-end armors is just not ok. Why is FP 8AC+Enhancements? The dragon armor is already 10+enh right? Why not 14? 16? Shields too.

3. Please stop with the "special" item properties that can only be on those two or three special raid loot items. Make the really powerful ones like +3 dodge ring min level 15 if you want or whatever seems ok. (natural armor, dodge, whatever.) The raid items get the distinction of having way more stuff on one item than would normaly be ok.

4. Don't nerf anything. Just make it a balance. Wearing armor should not be only for those tunes that can't or don't take advantage of the current system. AC should always be a choice that every character makes. I.E. do i want to wear the 4 items that make my AC higher or the four that make me do much more damage?

Last: The current highest no armor AC builds will still have the highest possible AC. It shouldn't ever get past about +15 possible advantage though. In a D20 system this is not ok.

I know that in PNP there are possible issues like this too. With a good DM and house rules it just isn't allowed.

P.S. The best items in the game should never be something you can make IMO. It takes away part of the essence of D&D right there. I.E. get ubber sword after incredible battle=good(raid)

[joker965]

So does everyone think "That guy is an idiot." or

"He isn't *****ing enough so I don't care to comment"? (The stars are a word that means complain.)

That is all

[Slink]

Neither, because after toying around on Lamannia, balance has been fixed in may ways.
Including the subject of your thread.

Now we just wait for it to be implemented on the live servers.
I expect to see level 20's within a week.
Followed by bickering about the cost of respecs(dragonshards).
Followed by solid builds arriving at level 20 a week or so later.

[Ranmaru2]

Why so serious?

Anyways....most toons can get a good AC if the player actually tries. I don't agree that raid loot effects should be on other items we can find, otherwise, what's the point of raids?

I don't know about increasing Base Armor amounts unless they allowed us to craft armor out of different pelts/skins/materials.

[joker965]

Why so serious?

Anyways....most toons can get a good AC if the player actually tries. I don't agree that raid loot effects should be on other items we can find, otherwise, what's the point of raids?

I don't know about increasing Base Armor amounts unless they allowed us to craft armor out of different pelts/skins/materials.

Sorry I was just trying to discuss the game directly and ignore the complaining that is off the hook right now.

The point of having any effect available to treasure items is that every chest will be fun again. Raid loot will still be worth it because you might get a robe that is like Armor 7 and Protection 5 or even more. Not possible in one item slot without a special or raid item.

P.S. I guess was a little irritated that all of the crying posts are getting like 600 comments and i post some ideas about the game and 50 look but go back to complaining and such. Lol I'm over it.

[Ranmaru2]

Ummm....the Why So Serious was addressing your Signature

[joker965]

Ummm....the Why So Serious was addressing your Signature

Ha! Missed my reading check there. It was a running joke in college sorta picking on that silly Nietzsche quote that was "Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

[Ranmaru2]

Ha! Missed my reading check there. It was a running joke in college sorta picking on that silly Nietzsche quote that was "Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

On a more serious note, I've had a discussion of this nature with a friend in game and unless they let us craft armor piece by piece, there's really no way to logically justify deviating far from the rules for armor and keeping it within reasonable boundaries as to what we'll create.

[Junts]

Sorry I was just trying to discuss the game directly and ignore the complaining that is off the hook right now.

The point of having any effect available to treasure items is that every chest will be fun again. Raid loot will still be worth it because you might get a robe that is like Armor 7 and Protection 5 or even more. Not possible in one item slot without a special or raid item.

P.S. I guess was a little irritated that all of the crying posts are getting like 600 comments and i post some ideas about the game and 50 look but go back to complaining and such. Lol I'm over it.

Honestly, I think this is less of a problem in mod9 becuase heavy plate wearing classes (pal/fighter) are getting enhancement lines worth 7-9 armor class, whereas the robe wearers are not; instead of having roughly identical acs, the plate wearers are about to shoot way ahead of them.

[Angelus_dead]

Honestly, I think this is less of a problem in mod9 becuase heavy plate wearing classes (pal/fighter) are getting enhancement lines worth 7-9 armor class

How do you figure +7 AC above robed characters?

[Ranmaru2]

Undispellable ACs, yes, as far as buffable ACs I'm not so sure about that one Jaer.

[Junts]

How do you figure +7 AC above robed characters?

Ok, I'll bite.

Premise #1:

a majority of high-ac robe wearers have the majority of their levels in ranger
those that do not have the majority of their levels in rogue or monk.
most all have at least one monk level (15/1 ran/monk, 14/1/1, 15/1 rog/monk, 12 ran/3 pal/1 monk and pure monk being the most common robed ac builds)

The 'maximum' armor classes for these builds top out somewhere like so (please note, I am including 'normal raid buffs', which is a +5 barkskin, a bardsong and a recitation/haste .. pocket paladinhood not assumed beyond the paladin levels possessed by the builds themselves, if they have them):

pure monk: 82+
15/1 rog/monk: sustainable 80
ranger variants: 72-75

Some dex-based versions of the ranger variants may go slightly higher than that, especially halfling versions, however, these are not particularly common and most are dps/str builds using human or dwarf as the platform (some, also, use wf).

I would be glad to do some breakdowns of their acs if you needed; however, I suspect you are willing to accept those ac ranges as in my experience those are roughly what's achieved by powergamers playing said builds (the 14/1/1s in my guild top out at 75, the iron monks around 74, the primary rogue level halflings at 80).

Plate wearers in similar circumstances presently top out in the 73-76 ac range: 15/1f paladins can reach 76 and 77 as dwarves; fighters also sit around this threshold. Should a breakdown of these be necessary, I will again present them for you.

I have never met a robe-based ac build built on the paladin or fighter platforms; they are, however, possible, though unlikely for a variety of reasons, and I am unsure what the maximum ac would be for, say, a dex based 14 pal/2 monk). If you like, we can address these later.

Premise 3: Module 9 prestige class lines will not change from what we saw on lamannia/previews.

Therefore, the following will happen:

cap ac's for primary-ranger builds will go down by 2 (the shield-typing of the tempest ac bonus will cost them 2 ac that stacked with wands, but also free them from using said wands).

Dex-based versions of all 3 robed builds (primarily monks and rogues) will probably gain one armor class via a new dexterity bracket (assuming al evel up point and either a +1 better available tome or enhancement swap): net ac change here is -1 to +1 depending on build

Fighter builds gain the following bonuses:

+3 ac, passive prc bonus
+2 ac, heavy armor/tower shield max dex improvement (tower is +3, but irrelevant to this exercise)
+4 ac, superior defensive stance
(situational: +3 more blocking ac, for a total of +5 in block mode)

Fighter ac gain: +9 (12 situationally), assuming a starting 75 (non-dwarf, add dwarven armor mastery bonuses for dwarves), now at 84 with a situational 89 (blocking)

Paladin builds gain the following bonuses:

+2 ac, max dex improvements
+4 ac, superior defensive stance
+1 ac, 'your defensive auras are stronger', which appears to increase the ac of bulwark of good by an additional +1
(situational: paladins also gain the blocking bonuses)

Paladin ac gain; +7, situationally 10)

Paladin ac max now: 76 (dwarf 79, situational 78/81)
paladin ac max then: 83 (dwarf 86, situational 88/91)

While it is possible that we will see a profusion of new, dex-based fighter and paladin builds with monk splash, there are significant deterrants to this as well (less synergy, feat problems for paladin builds in having to qualify for defender, worse dps relative to ranger/rogue platforms, etc)

With said changes, fighter/paladin builds are significantly ahead of ranger-based monk splash templates (unless pure halfling/dex builds, which sacrifice most of the benefit of using ranger), and are roughly competitive with rogue and monk based platforms, possibly slightly exceeded by the best of rogues, and lacking the situational clicky, of course.

So, yes, while might be possible (via pure dex investment and a 18/2 fighter or paladin/monk build) to exceed the ac of a plate wearer, I would have to point out it is not that likely such builds will be persued (like ac monks, they would suffer from pretty terrible dps and some other problems), and the commonly existing (and already created) robed ac builds will be competitive or behind.

[Borror0]

Ok, I'll bite.

Do you have the TL;DR version?

[Junts]

Do you have the TL;DR version?

the what? :P

[Borror0]

the what? :P

Short version.

[Junts]

sure
now
plate average ac: 75
ranger+robe average ac: 75
rogue//monk+robe average ac: 80

issue? clearly

mod9
plate average ac: 83
ranger+robe average ac: 73
rogue//monk+robe average ac: 81

issue? much less
:P

[Borror0]

sure

Do you have the breakdown for those?

[Angelus_dead]

Premise #1:

a majority of high-ac robe wearers have the majority of their levels in ranger

Wow. Invalid from the very first line.

[Junts]

Wow. Invalid from the very first line.

not really, no; ac ranger builds outnumber rogue builds 3:1, and monk builds 8:1 or better, at least on my server

Further, anything that needs to be addressed is generally related to the rangerness; no one was being angsty about 19/1 rogue/monk acrobats inflated acs and dps relative to other people.

[Angelus_dead]

not really, no; ac ranger builds outnumber rogue builds 3:1, and monk builds 8:1 or better, at least on my server

Whatever builds are popular on your server is irrelevant to your contention that mod 9 will give armored characters 7+ more AC that robed characters can't get. If few existing characters are in position to train a certain new feature, that only delays the impact on game balance, not eliminates it.

The only parts of Stalwart Defender and Defender of Syberis that don't benefit a robe-wearer are the increases to max dex, which are +3 or +2 respectively. One can't claim that fig18/monk2 and pal18/monk2 are irrelevant builds, because they're competing with the plate-wearers on the AC front while still using the offhand for an extra weapon, instead of a tower shield.

PS. As a side note, you skipped that monks get higher dex from wind 4 and +1 AC from level 20, and that rangers get a supposedly huge AC increase against their favored enemies.

Further, anything that needs to be addressed is generally related to the rangerness; no one was being angsty about 19/1 rogue/monk acrobats inflated acs and dps relative to other people.

False. The most common basis for a complaint is the impact of monk1.