Thinking about my first bard, advice please...

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

Im thinking about making a bard, a class Ive never played, and Im debating splashing him with 2 levels of rogue, going dex/finesse with maybe a 12-14 int for extra skill points so he can do the rogue thing as well as the bard thing(if its possible), was wondering if anyone had any experience trying this, advice etc.
I dont really care about endgame as I play mainly in permadeath, genearlly either a pure sorc or a ranger/rogue (st based, rogue skills maxed, dps focus twf) and Id like to TRY to do somthing simlar to the ranger rogue but with a bard and dex based (Ive also never played a dex based character) as I dont thnk Ill have the stat points to go st and have dex decent high but Im at work pondering all this, havent actually fiddled with trying to make a build yet.
Im not committed to splashing rogue but... its a thought. I like having the trapsmithing skills/extra utility. Im not really looking for perfect, but decent. I am a firm believer that how you play matters more than what you play.
Off to read about this warchanter/spellsinger etc stuff, dont really get those either or what I should be thinking about in regards to them, but Im still reading/researching!
But if anyone has any thoughts about all this Id appreciate it.
Thanks!
Oh yeah, drow or elf for race.

[Demoyn]

A bard/rogue can work well. They've both got high dex saves, both have good skill points, and both like the same types of weapons.

If you're sure you want an elf or drow then don't bother with a warchanter. It's hard to fit the right feats on a warchanter as it is (unless you plan to sword and board; yuck). I could see where a drow bard 14/rogue 2 spellsinger with 16 starting int and 18 starting charisma could be very nice for a permadeath player (make sure to take toughness, though).

[Geonis]

Bard/Rogue is a great combo, especially with Drow (bonuses to Int and Cha have great synergy).

Go with TWF/ITWF, Weapon Finesse, and Toughness, other 2 are open.

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 18

1st level Rogue to maximize skill points.

2nd level of Rogue around 7 or 8 to balance out skill points.

You can use your Drow racial enahncements to tighten up any Spot/Search shortcomings.



Level 1 and 2 are going to suck, because you don't have Finesse yet.

[WeaselKing]

It'll work great, go drow. Stats in Geonis's post look pretty good, though I might take points out of dex and put them in con.

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

Thanks for the quick replies!
I notice almost nobody talks about the 'virtuoso of the sword', all warchanters and spellsingers eh?
So you think I should wait til 7ish to add a second level of rogue? I was thinking start w 2 levels of rogue and go bard from there (for evasion mainly) but willing to try pretty much anything.
SOunds like a fun build tho, looking forward to running it or dying trying!

[Zenako]

Those stats are not a bad place to start.

The problem with Virtuoso is that it REALLY requires the party to work with the Bard to be effective (possibly not as much of a problem in PD thou), while Chanter and Singer specialities work regardless of the tactical behavoir of the party.

[Thrudh]

One of my oldest characters is a bard/rogue... Drow... 13/3 at the moment...

I would suggest taking a rogue level at 1 and 7... Waiting until 7 lets you catch up on any rogue skills that fall behind...

Train in UMD, Disable, Search, Spot, Open Lock, Haggle

Open Lock does not need to be maxed out...

Drow is a very good choice because you get bonuses to Dex, Int, and Cha... all good for both rogues and bards...

Use charm a lot... It's an incredible spell...

[Accelerando]

Did you see the capstone? Go pure. Nobody cares if your bard can disarm traps or open locks. Most people run through traps, and many 1 rog splash builds can disarm them. As for locks there is always knock.

Too bad you are not on Ghallanda I you could tail Abi and watch her for a spell. Show you what a bard can really accomplish.

edit: sorry i only read you were splashing not about the permadeath stuff. Well I would seriously suggest checking out warchanter as their ironskin chant provides 5dr to your whole party. That is something that is super helpful in a permadeath situation. Once you get that far then think about splashing rogue, although if you really doubt your capability to make it to 20 w/o party wiping splash rogue at 1. Why not?

[Hobble_Gobble]

...re-roll!


















(j/k because he likes permadeath)

Happy Hunting

[WeaselKing]

Those stats are not a bad place to start.

The problem with Virtuoso is that it REALLY requires the party to work with the Bard to be effective (possibly not as much of a problem in PD thou), while Changer and Singer specialities work regardless of the tactical behavoir of the party.

Did you see the capstone? Go pure. Nobody cares if your bard can disarm traps or open locks. Most people run through traps, and many 1 rog splash builds can disarm them. As for locks there is always knock.

Too bad you are not on Ghallanda I you could tail Abi and watch her for a spell. Show you what a bard can really accomplish.

Remember the OP is rolling a permadeath toon, so Virtuoso might just work well, depending on his PD group and the capstone is unlikely to matter as unfortunately this toon will likely die long before level 20.

[Zenako]

Back to other points. You can also think about taking more than just the 2 rogue levels as well. Look over the higher level effects of a Bard and see how many you really think you want? The 6th level spells are not overwhelming in my opinion and will not really change your playstyle or options very much. You only get them at 16th level. On the 5th level spells you get the first at 13th, IIRC and looking at the table in the compendium (I have a pure 16th drow spellsinger and a 7th human in the works).

What you are trading off in potential bard songs and Spell DC, etc you are gaining in Sneak Attack and some rogue enhancements. The point being, once you have decided that going some sort of Bard/Rogue split, that the dividing line is not as clear as it would be with some splashes (since both are 3/4 BAB). You get 4th level spells at 10th and 5th level at 13th. For most bards, there are one or two must have spells at each level and the rest tend to be somewhat situational, and could be ignored without much loss.

For example Rogue 3 adds another d6 to sneak attack damage, and as a dex based fighter you will probably often find yourself as the "helper" and get flanking on the target and thus trigger your bonus damage. Level 4 rogue opens up the Uncanny Dodge option, which can be very useful when you REALLY need to make those Reflex saves. You also gain access to Rogue Skill Boost at level 4 for another +3 to rolls, while Non-human Bards don't have any skill boost available to them.

[Accelerando]

Remember the OP is rolling a permadeath toon, so Virtuoso might just work well, depending on his PD group and the capstone is unlikely to matter as unfortunately this toon will likely die long before level 20.

Ya sorry I had a premature eja... post on that one. Fixed in the edit don't ya know.

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

Thanks for the help, and good point Zenako, seems I may indeed do more than 2 rogue levels.
I have so many things to keep up with having the rogue added that Im not sure trying for the spellsinger etc is going to be viable, but IM having a lot of fun with this toon so far (4Bard/1Rogue atm) and I can see so many ways to tinker it appears Ive found a new favorite build to fiddle with, so thanks!

[maddmatt70]

Thanks for the help, and good point Zenako, seems I may indeed do more than 2 rogue levels.
I have so many things to keep up with having the rogue added that Im not sure trying for the spellsinger etc is going to be viable, but IM having a lot of fun with this toon so far (4Bard/1Rogue atm) and I can see so many ways to tinker it appears Ive found a new favorite build to fiddle with, so thanks!

Go 14 bard 2 rogue at this cap and then evaluate what it looks like next mod if you want to take more rogue levels. For instance how much would your song lose if you splashed more rogue levels.. Edit: whoops permadeath character my bad.. Never mind post..

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

Aw cmon man! I have a 14th level Sorc in permadeath still going strong! Gotta have faith!

[spifflove]

I would choose rogue abilities and evasion over the rather underwhelming capstone [it doesnt make my greatax crit any more often =p] , even in nonpermadeath play.

But you have to decide if you want to be a warchanter or a Spellslinger.

[lOprahl]

Did you see the capstone? Go pure. Nobody cares if your bard can disarm traps or open locks. Most people run through traps, and many 1 rog splash builds can disarm them. As for locks there is always knock.

Permadeath or Not, this is terrible advice.

...re-roll!

Also terrible advice

I am a firm believer that how you play matters more than what you play.

Agreed...especially with bards.

~~~
Evasion is key. I would go Chanter for buffs, or Singer for versatility. Geonis has some good starting stats. Leave Virtuoso alone...its broke at the moment.

Good luck...