Possible Change to Blanket Sneak Attack Immunities

[Timjc86]

So I posted this in the rogue forums a week or so ago and got a little bit of feedback. Those who replied seemed to like the idea. I figured I'd throw it up here in Development and try to get a broader range of responses, maybe even from a dev?

I would definitely like to give some serious thought to sneak attack changes, and specifically how fortification and immunities affect sneak attack. I'd be very interested in hearing what other players think about this and would love to see some dev input as well.


*** Back story - feel free to skip ***

I think my first three or so DDO characters were rogues. I loved it. The sneaking, the damage, I was convinced I had found my class. That all changed with Delera's.
Fast-forward a few years later and I'm back from a long hiatus to give DDO another shot. I start up another rogue and run into the same issues. I asked here on the forums for some suggestions and one of the replies was a 1 rogue / rest ranger build. I got my 1750 favor, rolled up the character, and never looked back until Assassin II.

On my rogue, I hated being useless against undead and constructs - not just less useful, but useless. On my ranger, I hated being able to find all the traps but not being able to do anything else about them. A 15/1 split was perfect. He's a beast in combat regardless of what he is fighting and he can take care of most of the traps and locks as well.

I have had a lot of fun with my assassin (rogue 15 / fighter 1 - 19/1 @ 20 cap). But I still cannot stand fighting things like undead, elementals and such. So...



*** Real Discussion - Back story's over ***

I honestly don't think it would be overpowering to grant a line of feats or enhancements - or heck, even innately grant some way for rogues to bypass fortification and sneak attack immunities. It certainly doesn't have to be 100%; I would be very happy even with a reduction in fortification (ie a % chance to get sneak attacks, kind of like Harry/Sally now).

Even going with a strength-based rogue isn't enough to offset the bonuses that other melee classes get. Sneak attack is something that is currently inherently necessary for a rogue to be combat-effective. I don't think that's necessarily bad but when combined with blanket sneak attack immunities it can get disheartening.

Something like this currently exists for constructs with the Wrack Construct enhancement line, but there are some issues I have:

• These could get very expensive very quickly if there were separate enhancement lines for constructs, undead, elementals, fortification, etc. It needs to be one line for everything or not enhancement based.
  
  
• A clicky for every type of mob would require a fair bit of hotbar and button-mashing management. Again, it needs to be one line for everything.
  
  
• WC isn't terribly effective at end game. My assassin has a decent intelligence for a rogue. Even so, in 4-5 Shroud runs, I have seen WC land against the portals an average of one-two times (0 in two runs, 3 in one run). Now he's not wearing a 6 intelligence item and he's not using a cursespewer, but there are a lot of portals and he is spamming WC as soon as it's off cooldown - such a low frequency is just not acceptable. Who knew stationary portals were so nimbly-bimbly?
  
  
  • Edit: I got a +6 int item and Cursespewer... and haven't noticed even a slight difference. Maybe 1-2 successful wracks in an entire part 1. It's only been a week though.

So what are some solutions?

A single enhancement line for all types of sneak attack immunities and fortification. There could be a few ways to implement this:

• Mirror the current implementation of Wrack Construct: have a single clicky with a ~6 second cooldown that deals some extra damage and has a DC that when failed provides a chance to get sneak attacks for the duration of the effect.
  
  
  • Get rid of the bonus damage in favor of a higher DC save.
    
    
  • Get rid of the clicky and have the save inherently apply to all rogue attacks.
    
    
  • Get rid of the save altogether. Just make it an inherent chance for all rogue attacks to be sneak attacks against things that are normally immune and increase the chance of getting sneak attacks against stuff with some degree of fortification.
  
  
  
• Tie this to feats instead of enhancements - this could be implemented any of the three ways above.
  
  
• Grant this inherently with rogue levels, or even make it one of the special rogue feats (akin to improved evasion, slippery mind, etc).

I think linking this to feats is a bad idea, unless it was available through the special rogue feats, and rogues got at least one more extra rogue feat; but then you run into balance issues of characters getting improved evasion at level 7 or whatever.

I think enhancements are a good mechanism for adding this, but I really don't like the idea of even more clickies. It needs to be inherent.

My favorite idea is just automatically giving it to rogues and increasing the chance with more rogue levels - very similarly to monk benefits such as run speed, slow fall, unarmed damage die, etc. Make it a 10% chance to get sneak attacks against SA immune mobs and a 10% reduction in fortification at level 3 and increase it 10% every three levels. That is just an example, I have no idea how realistic those #s are.

What do you all think?

I also really liked Noctus' suggested implementation:

There should be an enhancement-line called "Find the weak spot" and it gives you a 10/20/30/40 % reduction in the opponents fortification.

A rogue would still be much weaker against fortified enemys, but not border on total uselessness any more.

[Impaqt]

Adapt and overcome.

this is PnP 3.5 core stuff here.... undead and Constructs are simply immune to sneak attack/Critical hits. where you are less effective against those mobs, your are significantly more effective than most other classes against fleshy mobs.

Break out the Curspwer, Shattermantle, Crippler, str sapper, or any other debuffer you can get your hands on....

Against elementals? Weakening works great..... Crippling strike? Yes please.....

Even the toughest end game raid bosses on elite dont have 100% Fortification.

[Borror0]

Adapt and overcome.

this is PnP 3.5 core stuff here

But, in 3.5 D&D, there are multiple ways to overcome those immunities.

[SableShadow]

Adapt and overcome.

this is PnP 3.5 core stuff here.... undead and Constructs are simply immune to sneak attack/Critical hits. where you are less effective against those mobs, your are significantly more effective than most other classes against fleshy mobs.

Break out the Curspwer, Shattermantle, Crippler, str sapper, or any other debuffer you can get your hands on....

Against elementals? Weakening works great..... Crippling strike? Yes please.....

Even the toughest end game raid bosses on elite dont have 100% Fortification.

I agree with Impaqt in general, disagree in the specifics. Yes, the OP has overstated his point re: "not just less useful, but useless." If you're "useless", you're just plain doing it wrong. Sorry man.

Specifically, I disagree that 'support' and 'debuff' are the roles a rogue should resign herself to on mobs that can't be sneak attacked. We end up being more gear dependent than other classes, sure, particularly dex/int rogues (biggest advantage of str rogues isn't the peak damage, it's the freedom to pick higher base damage weapons and reduced need to gear up on non-SA targets).

Yes, it's annoying to need to hunt up <something> of greater undead bane blunts for the majority of the undead out there, but it's doable....and it was doubly annoying the first time in Deleres to try to find a holy or good weapon as a newbie. Ditto addy greater construct banes; ditto <something> of greater ele bane; ditto all the speciality smiting/banishing/disrupting/wounding/weakening gear.

A plus for Min IIs is they're almost as good as the perfect greater bane, and you'd only need a set of those instead of the 3 to 6 sets of speciality stuff I carry around with me.

All that said, I could see giving Mechanics an enhancement that gave them 1d6/3d6/4d6 to damage undead and constructs at Mech I/II/III respectively....I could also see pumping the Damage Boost (which I never use right now) to have it override some % of a targets Fortification. I don't know if I'd want to go further than that; wouldn't we start to unbalance our place with respect to Barbarians, who I think of as our mirror class?

And all *that* said, all this hinges on what's coming in Mod 9+. A couple ideas have been floated around to grant more and more mobs fortification; if so, then Noctus' idea of a passive fort reducer makes really good sense. Heck, I would accept an argument that it makes sense just from what's come in the Vale onward.

[Draccus]

Let me start off by saying that I'm probably one of the biggest rogue fans in DDO. The only reason I ever play another class is because it in some way benefits my rogue (plat, items, ingredients, etc.).

That being said, I'm not a fan of changing the classic sneak attack immunities that have existed in D&D since the d20 system started. I hope no other rogue fans are going to see my type this but I kinda like the logic around undead and construct SA immunity and like the fact that my rogue basically says "This one's all you guys!" when we're faced with a SA immune mob.

What I'd like to see instead is an enhancment line or feat to bypass the SA immunity/reduction afforded by fortification.

I'd also like to see FAR fewer undead in the game. They seem to be the filler mob of choice any time a dungeon has an empty area. I can accept not being a huge contributor in a couple of fights in a couple of dungeons but it's way more often than that.

[Borror0]

you are less effective against those mobs, your are significantly more effective than most other classes against fleshy mobs.

I also have something to say about this.

It's bad for the game for rogues to loose so much effectiveness against undeads and constructs. In tabletop, it is somewhat more acceptable because the DM balances the encounters for the group. In other words, he will make sure (or try at his best) that the rogue still feels useful. Furthermore, skills matter much more in tabletop which favors rogues as well.

However, in an MMO, the quest designers are faced with the possible options:

• Ignore the problem and risk having rogues being bored/frustrated/rejected from PuGs.
• Acknowledge the problem and avoid story lines with heavy concentration of those mobs.
• Add diversity, for the sake of diversity. (This will give odd results, most likely.)

Obviously, none of these are really enjoyable scenarios.

What is best to do make rogues more useful in those quests. Two solutions can be taken, once that decision has been made: either you defocus rogues' power from Sneak Attack or you allow Sneak Attack to affect those mobs, if only a percentage (there are multiple ways to achieve that through enhancements, feats and items). The final solution can also be a mix of the two, and maybe that is the best.

Perhaps you truly believe there is no problem, but that only means you have made peace with it. It is still there.

[SableShadow]

But, in 3.5 D&D, there are multiple ways to overcome those immunities.

You are correct, but I think we're not really debating "how can rogues do damage" here; the real debate is "how gear dependent should DDO be?"

Perhaps you truly believe there is no problem, but that only means you have made peace with it. It is still there.

True enough. No other class goes from 100 to 0 as fast; I take the tact that "rogue is not a class for casual play; if can't put in the effort, don't play them". That's true enough in the current incarnation of DDO.

You can see the devs understand (or are starting to understand) this as well, given the rogue templates they put out with Mod 8. Yes, I know I said I hated them, but I think I understand what they're trying to do now.

As for changes, even converting "crit immune" on undead/constructs to heavy fort, then providing fighters/rogues with fort reducing enhancements might make things a little more user friendly and provide better class balance.

[Timjc86]

Adapt and overcome.

this is PnP 3.5 core stuff here.... undead and Constructs are simply immune to sneak attack/Critical hits. where you are less effective against those mobs, your are significantly more effective than most other classes against fleshy mobs.

I have little to no PnP experience. I have a vague understanding of it. I realize that the game is based off of the 3.5 rule set but at the same time, this is not PnP. I do not find something to the effect of "because it's that way in PnP" a compelling argument. (And are blanket sneak attack immunities not gone in 4.0?)

As far as rogues being more effective against fleshies, that comes at a fairly steep cost: low hp (combined with fortification, this makes rogues a bit of a liability in fights like Shroud 5 and VoD); average AC (+ low hp = ouch); no aggro for sneak attacks; abysmal will save. Every other melee class can WoP/Vorpal trash just as well, if not better than a rogue. Additionally raids seem to be following the trend of perma-cleaving, fortified bosses.

Break out the Curspwer, Shattermantle, Crippler, str sapper, or any other debuffer you can get your hands on....

Half of those have low saves and are a poor substitute for damage. Casters can debuff better. I don't see rogues getting into groups because they're good debuffers.

Against elementals? Weakening works great..... Crippling strike? Yes please.....

Any other melee class can also use weakening/wounding weapons against elementals. They'll also be doing a respectable amount of damage while swinging; rogues usually aren't. These also don't work on red names (although they're rare). Are you completely sure Crippling Strike works on elementals?

Even the toughest end game raid bosses on elite dont have 100% Fortification.

Regardless, fortification disproportionately hurts rogue DPS over that of other classes.

I agree with Impaqt in general, disagree in the specifics. Yes, the OP has overstated his point re: "not just less useful, but useless." If you're "useless", you're just plain doing it wrong. Sorry man.

I may have been exaggerating slightly to prove my point; it's not the first time and it won't be the last. Useless is maybe too far, but less useful to a disheartening degree is not.

Specifically, I disagree that 'support' and 'debuff' are the roles a rogue should resign herself to on mobs that can't be sneak attacked. We end up being more gear dependent than other classes, sure, particularly dex/int rogues (biggest advantage of str rogues isn't the peak damage, it's the freedom to pick higher base damage weapons and reduced need to gear up on non-SA targets).

Yes, it's annoying to need to hunt up <something> of greater undead bane blunts for the majority of the undead out there, but it's doable....and it was doubly annoying the first time in Deleres to try to find a holy or good weapon as a newbie. Ditto addy greater construct banes; ditto <something> of greater ele bane; ditto all the speciality smiting/banishing/disrupting/wounding/weakening gear.

A plus for Min IIs is they're almost as good as the perfect greater bane, and you'd only need a set of those instead of the 3 to 6 sets of speciality stuff I carry around with me.

I finish my radiance tonight. A mineral II will be next after a cha skills item. But should a rogue have to have a mineral II or a "perfect" (and extremely lucky or expensive) greater bane to still be significantly less effective than other melee classes?

All that said, I could see giving Mechanics an enhancement that gave them 1d6/3d6/4d6 to damage undead and constructs at Mech I/II/III respectively....I could also see pumping the Damage Boost (which I never use right now) to have it override some % of a targets Fortification. I don't know if I'd want to go further than that; wouldn't we start to unbalance our place with respect to Barbarians, who I think of as our mirror class?

Similarly to ranged combat, Mechanics need help, but not in the form of a benefit that all rogues should receive anyway. Barbarians also have ~30 more strength than the average rogue; they're getting something like 6d6 vicious damage with frenzied berzerker. I am not terribly worried about them.

And all *that* said, all this hinges on what's coming in Mod 9+. A couple ideas have been floated around to grant more and more mobs fortification; if so, then Noctus' idea of a passive fort reducer makes really good sense. Heck, I would accept an argument that it makes sense just from what's come in the Vale onward.

Let me start off by saying that I'm probably one of the biggest rogue fans in DDO. The only reason I ever play another class is because it in some way benefits my rogue (plat, items, ingredients, etc.).

That being said, I'm not a fan of changing the classic sneak attack immunities that have existed in D&D since the d20 system started. I hope no other rogue fans are going to see my type this but I kinda like the logic around undead and construct SA immunity and like the fact that my rogue basically says "This one's all you guys!" when we're faced with a SA immune mob.

Again, I don't find that a compelling reason without some analysis to support it. It's also no longer the case in 4.0. I have no issues with rogues being less effective against things like undead and constructs. I am merely concerned that the degree of lesser effectiveness is approaching ineffectiveness.

What I'd like to see instead is an enhancment line or feat to bypass the SA immunity/reduction afforded by fortification.

What logic are you following that makes that seem acceptable while a %20-%40 chance for a high level rogue to get sneak attacks against undead, constructs, etc isn't? I don't mean for that to sound sarcastic, I'm legitimately curious. Again, I never PnPed, so that may be it.

I'd also like to see FAR fewer undead in the game. They seem to be the filler mob of choice any time a dungeon has an empty area. I can accept not being a huge contributor in a couple of fights in a couple of dungeons but it's way more often than that.

Trying out a new color. I'd love to say more but it's time for class. Back in a few hours.

[bobbryan2]

Adapt and overcome.

this is PnP 3.5 core stuff here.... undead and Constructs are simply immune to sneak attack/Critical hits. where you are less effective against those mobs, your are significantly more effective than most other classes against fleshy mobs.

Break out the Curspwer, Shattermantle, Crippler, str sapper, or any other debuffer you can get your hands on....

Against elementals? Weakening works great..... Crippling strike? Yes please.....

Even the toughest end game raid bosses on elite dont have 100% Fortification.

Really? So the Abbot, Titan, and Sor'jek don't have 100% fort?

The Hound and DQ are barely meleeable except under certain conditions.

So you're left with the Dragon, Stormreaver, and two pit fiends that Rogues excel at, and they're at 50% ability on the last two.

It's bad design for an MMO to have a DPS class that can't DPS the majority of raid bosses. Period.

[Uska]

read 3.5 please

[bobbryan2]

read 3.5 please

Please read up on subjects like MMOs, Raids, DPS characters... and then come to your own conclusion on why it would be bad for DPS characters to do shoddy DPS on raids.

3.5 rules are gravy and all... except I don't remember getting together for a raid in 3.5 to have a 3% chance to pull that epic raid loot.

[SableShadow]

Trying out a new color. I'd love to say more but it's time for class. Back in a few hours.

Using hyperbole to "prove" a point is kinda dangerous...been bitten by that myself recently, since it, well, doesn't prove anything and someone is always going to end up calling you on it.

It sounds like the dialogue you want to have isn't "rogues suck at damage; let's help them" but "the gear rogues need to be effective is too rare and hard to get compared to other classes". Two different discussions completely.

The problem here is, DDO is a gear game; all classes are impacted by their gear very, very heavily. Rogues are *the* most gear impacted of the classes; a lot of folks go str based for that reason, to reduce some of the gear dependency....and you can see that reasoning mirrored in Turbine's Mod 8 path designs for the class.

The challenge isn't an overall upping of the class, but in proposing a modification that brings the gear dependency a little more in line with the rest of the classes without amping the output of rogues who can and have done all that gearing up. I love the class, and would like to see it be a little more user friendly, but I can't honestly say that I don't hold my own or better with the people in other classes that I run with.

Bit of a quandary.

Perhaps something along the lines of making Damage Boost damage untyped, so it bypasses everything, extending the DC of Wrack Construct to make it more effective (and add undead to "Magical Constructs"), and maybe tuck a some bonus damage into WotM? That way you kinda spread things around a bit, to reduce the inevitable min/maxing.

[sephiroth1084]

A few things to note in favor of the OP:

Apparently, somewhere along the line WotC realized that the interaction between sneak attack and crit-immune creatures is a problem (my own assumption that they realized) and presented several solutions to that problem . Among these are:

-alternate class features in Complete Champion or Dungeonscape (cannot recall which) that grant a rogue half his/her SA vs. undead
-a feat that allows multiclassed ranger/rogues to apply their sneak attack against favored enemies even if those creatures would otherwise be immune
-several spells that permit SA and critical hits to be applied against undead (a creature type that seems far more prevalent in WotC material than any other sort of creature with similar immunities)

I'd love to see some of these introduced to the game. If an enhancement, perhaps something either along the line of the WF's Healer's Friend, where each tier grants 20% of the rogues SA damage against immune targets, or perhaps a clickable ability, similar to the monk's Unbalancing Strike, that renders a target susceptible to SA for a short time.

Alternatively, the devs could create a new weapon enhancement that follows the lesser--> greater breakdown (similar to bane), which grants an increasing degree of SA against otherwise immune creatures (maybe make it monster-specific, though I think a universal property would not be overpowered).

Or, it could be a feat that rogues may take that would allow them to apply half or 3/4 of their SA against undead, plants, constructs and elementals.

[sephiroth1084]

The problem here is, DDO is a gear game; all classes are impacted by their gear very, very heavily. Rogues are *the* most gear impacted of the classes; a lot of folks go str based for that reason, to reduce some of the gear dependency....and you can see that reasoning mirrored in Turbine's Mod 8 path designs for the class.

How are rogues the most gear dependent (other than needing items to assist in trapsmithing)?

Oh, and on a separate point, I think Turbine's attempt at DMing this issue has been to ensure that any quest with a lot of undead also has a ton of traps, so that, while the rogue may be somewhat ineffective in combat, he will still be prized for his ability to help the party through the quest. Not a very good balance, but an observation.

[ViolentEnd]

Just to clarify, here is what the DnD Players Handbook states.

"A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible
anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal
creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to
critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be
able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be
able to reach such a spot."
-From Players Handbook

Later additions to the game that allowed alternative class features allowed ways around this. One is called Penetrating Strike. It allows, as an alternative class feature, a rogue to gain one-half of normal sneak damage against flanked opponents that are normally not subject to critical hits and sneak damage. In exchange for this feature, rogues lose Trap Sense, I believe.

[transtemporal]

What I'd like to see instead is an enhancment line or feat to bypass the SA immunity/reduction afforded by fortification.

I'd probably rather see it the other way round - that some portion (or perhaps all) of SA damage affected undead and constructs.

The ability to bypass fortification completely would affect both your SA and crit dmg. I think this would pretty much catapult rogues into the new boss-killers wouldn't it?

[bobbryan2]

I'd probably rather see it the other way round - that some portion (or perhaps all) of SA damage affected undead and constructs.

The ability to bypass fortification completely affects both your SA and crit dmg which would pretty much catapult rogues into the new boss-killer wouldn't it?

Rogues 'are' the boss-killer. Well, except for the ones with 100% fort. They've always been the boss-killer... though the somewhat recent sneak attack enhancement changes helped.

[Borror0]

And are blanket sneak attack immunities not gone in 4.0?

They are, but rogue's Sneak Attack was nerfed to less d6's as well.

Mechanics need help, but not in the form of a benefit that all rogues should receive anyway

Agreed. Mechanics can be better against constructs than other rogues, but that's a different topic.

[SableShadow]

How are rogues the most gear dependent (other than needing items to assist in trapsmithing)?

Eh? You already know why:

the interaction between sneak attack and crit-immune creatures is a problem

If a rogue wants to compete in that arena, he'll need to get better (i.e. rarer) equipment than his non-rogue counterparts to keep up....and it's usually critter dependent equipment, so more gear and of a rarer variety.

Oh, and on a separate point, I think Turbine's attempt at DMing this issue has been to ensure that any quest with a lot of undead also has a ton of traps, so that, while the rogue may be somewhat ineffective in combat, he will still be prized for his ability to help the party through the quest. Not a very good balance, but an observation.

Yep. Orchard was the least sucky of these, but it was still pretty yicky.

[transtemporal]

Rogues 'are' the boss-killer. Well, except for the ones with 100% fort. They've always been the boss-killer... though the somewhat recent sneak attack enhancement changes helped.

At the moment rogues are one of the classes considered 'boss-killers'.

I kinda meant with the ability to bypass fort, they would become 'the' boss-killer bar none.