Sword and Board Fixes

[HumanJHawkins]

I'm not going to talk about nerfing other classes here, though I'll admit I am starting to agree that some sort of nerf might be needed in some cases. But regardless of that, here is what is needed to make Sword and Board more viable.

1) The AC ritual needs to be changed to be relatively better for more effective armor types. I suggest:

- Cloth armors: No benefit
- Anything whose non-mithril form is light, i.e. chain shirt: +1 AC
- Anything whose non-mithril form is medium, i.e. breastplate: +2
- Anything whose non-mithril form is heavy, i.e. full plate: +3

- Same for shields... Light+1, Heavy +2, Tower +3

2) Add an enhancement line that raises AC while using a Tower Shield. Call it "Tower Shield Defense" or something.

3) Add a Sword and Board feat that affects number of attacks. There should be an "Improved Sword and Board" that gives one extra attack, and a "Greater Sword and Board" that gives another, for a total of 2.

NOTE: This would still leave the maxed out S&B build with 7 attacks vs. 10 for TWF. So, there would still be a lot of reason to go TWF (30% more damage capability). But this would allow S&B to at least be viable.

4) Add a feat to make the shield bash act like a second weapon. I.e. you could attack with the weapon as main hand, and shield as second hand. The shield would not be as good as almost any available weapon, so again this would not be a replacement for TWF. But it would help keep S&B viable. (And the existing TWF feats could apply as an extension of the "shield as off-hand weapon feat.) Basically, for the cost of an extra feat, you could have the equivalent of a crappy off hand weapon while maintaining the S&B AC.

Many of the above should probably be Fighter class feats, to help balance the value of the Fighter class.

5) Add a S&B defense feat that gives you a chance to avoid getting hit even on a 20. Perhaps, when hit with a natural 20, the opponent has to roll to confirm the hit at +10 or something. (The S&B equivalent of evasion)

6) Add a feat that gives heavy fort when wearing Full plate and a tower shield.

Anything else?

[Borror0]

Why do you need to create another thread when there is this already going on?

Go post it there instead of starting a second thread...

[Angelus_dead]

3) Add a Sword and Board feat that affects number of attacks. There should be an "Improved Sword and Board" that gives one extra attack, and a "Greater Sword and Board" that gives another, for a total of 2.

In the olden days that feat was included in the DDO compendium as "Melee Alacrity". It's a bad idea, because spending feats for a higher attack rate isn't supposed to be what S&B is all about. S&B is supposed to be about superior defense, and spending feats to boost its raw attack rate is moving it in the wrong direction.

It's OK if feats are added which S&B guys can take to increase their pure offensive abilities, but they should generally work with other combat styles as well, except that TWF guys won't necessarily be able to afford the feat slots to get them.

[Angelus_dead]

Why do you need to create another thread when there is this already going on?

There can be a lot of reasons not to use an existing thread. A primary one is that the other thread already has at least three completely distinct topics going on. This forum software does not really allow nested replies within a thread, so adding further digressions would just make that one messier.

[Borror0]

Hawkins, let me put it this way to you: inflation is bad.

[Angelus_dead]

1) The AC ritual needs to be changed to be relatively more better for more effective armor types. I suggest:

That has the strong negative consequence of making ritual AC overpowered. A tower-build would gain +6 AC by using your rituals, which means for such a character to fight with a non-bound shield or armor is barely even a viable option.

It would create too-large a gap between attuned and non-attuned tower+fp sets. If you wanted to raise the AC of tower+fp characters, then you could do it in other ways like just allowing those items to have more raw AC of their own, like unlocking +6 and +7 enhancement bonuses for them.

5) Add a S&B defense feat that gives you a chance to avoid getting hit even on a 20. Perhaps, when hit with a natural 20, the opponent has to roll to confirm the hit at +10 or something. (The S&B equivalent of evasion)

Something on that idea could be OK, but it probably shouldn't be a feat (AP maybe).

Anything else?

A very popular suggestion is to create a feat which gives shield-wearers some amount of passive DR. I have suggested

Shield Vigilance, req BAB 10 + Shield prof
You gain a bonus to DR/- equal to half your Shield AC bonus (round up). This stacks with all forms of passive DR, but not with the active DR from shield-blocking.

[Vizzini]

/signed and SAGE! ¬.¬

Why do you need to create another thread when there is this already going on?

Go post it there instead of starting a second thread...

[Borror0]

Add an enhancement line that raises AC while using a Tower Shield. Call it "Tower Shield Defense" or something.

Great! More weakening S&B to making them waste their APs on useless AC abilities!

Bad idea.

Add a Sword and Board feat that affects number of attacks. There should be an "Improved Sword and Board" that gives one extra attack, and a "Greater Sword and Board" that gives another, for a total of 2.

A better way to do it is simply make of it inherent to S&B fighting and increase the damage rather than number of swing/round.

Changing the factor of Str from +1 damage/Str modifier to 1.25/Str modifier would help a bit. As it can be easily observed, S&B is really powerful at lower levels but as characters gain more Str and more feats, S&B slowly falls way behind in damage. Then, when you hit Gianthold where AC suddenly matters even less, it's the last hit S&B needed.

Add a feat to make the shield bash act like a second weapon. I.e. you could attack with the weapon as main hand, and shield as second hand. The shield would not be as good as almost any available weapon, so again this would not be a replacement for TWF. But it would help keep S&B viable. (And the existing TWF feats could apply as an extension of the "shield as off-hand weapon feat.) Basically, for the cost of an extra feat, you could have the equivalent of a crappy off hand weapon while maintaining the S&B AC.

Aesop suggested that already. Still thinking about it, don't know why I'm so hesitant one that one.

Probably seems a waste of feat to me. (If it were to be implemented, making that part of ISB would be the best idea, as that feat is nearly worthless on its on.)

(The S&B equivalent of evasion)

I guess you mean S&B equivalent of Improved Evasion?

Add a feat that gives heavy fort when wearing Full plate and a tower shield.

You mean that the FP of Defenders is not enough? Neither is a Mineral II accessory, I guess?

[HumanJHawkins]

Why do you need to create another thread when there is this already going on?

Go post it there instead of starting a second thread...

Well, the main reason is that I didn't see that thread. It was at the bottom of the page when I came over today.

But as Angelus pointed out, it does look like that thread is getting muddy. Sometimes it is best to let the best ideas from a muddy thread get pulled out into a new one for clarity. I see people are already doing that here. (The DR suggestion for one)

[Turial]

....
1) The AC ritual needs to be changed to be relatively better for more effective armor types. I suggest:

- Cloth armors: No benefit
- Anything whose non-mithril form is light, i.e. chain shirt: +1 AC
- Anything whose non-mithril form is medium, i.e. breastplate: +2
- Anything whose non-mithril form is heavy, i.e. full plate: +3

- Same for shields... Light+1, Heavy +2, Tower +3

....

Why are you using "non-mithral is" designations for these armors? Mithral armor is not the same as the normal version of that armor.

[Angelus_dead]

Why are you using "non-mithral is" designations for these armors? Mithral armor is not the same as the normal version of that armor.

He specified non-mithral so that +5 mith fp could get +3 ritual AC like heavy armor, instead of +2 like medium armor.

[Borror0]

He specified non-mithral so that +5 mith fp could get +3 ritual AC like heavy armor, instead of +2 like medium armor.

Kinda pointless to do so for light armors though.

[HumanJHawkins]

In the olden days that feat was included in the DDO compendium as "Melee Alacrity". It's a bad idea, because spending feats for a higher attack rate isn't supposed to be what S&B is all about. S&B is supposed to be about superior defense, and spending feats to boost its raw attack rate is moving it in the wrong direction.

I agree in principle, except that DDO is different in two ways that are relevant here:
1) The existing game environment (for better or worse) really requires DPS to be effective. A high DPS toon with low AC can find a cleric to boost him long enough to kill stuff. However, a SnB build will not be able to overcome the regen of several important mobs (i.e. Shroud 2), no matter how long they try. The require higher DPS to succeed.
2) The community is a critical part of the gaming experience. And 90% of the players in the game are not happy playing alongside low DPS builds. No matter how effective a person is, they will have to endure pressure and derision from other players if it takes too long to kill stuff.

Because of the above, it is important to get defensive builds up to about 70 or 80% of the DPS of DPS builds. Most calculations I have seen currently show them at about 40 or 50%.

That has the strong negative consequence of making ritual AC overpowered. A tower-build would gain +6 AC by using your rituals, which means for such a character to fight with a non-bound shield or armor is barely even a viable option.

It would create too-large a gap between attuned and non-attuned tower+fp sets. If you wanted to raise the AC of tower+fp characters, then you could do it in other ways like just allowing those items to have more raw AC of their own, like unlocking +6 and +7 enhancement bonuses for them.

Well, +6 may be too high. Perhaps make the ritual not work on chain or cloth, but make it +1 for breastplates or heavy shields, and +2 for full plate or tower shield. The point is that it needs to scale. I don't think +4 would be too unbalancing. We already have monks and rangers running around with that, and they aren't even wearing armor.

The problem with enabling +6 or +7 on full plate is (again) the community. Everyone would start complaining that they never see +7 chain shirts. Just like when Dwarven Axes and Rapiers could not be crafted... Not having them available was a good game balance decision, but it angered the players who wanted their favorite type of weapon.

Shield Vigilance, req BAB 10 + Shield prof
You gain a bonus to DR/- equal to half your Shield AC bonus (round up). This stacks with all forms of passive DR, but not with the active DR from shield-blocking.

This would be good, as long as they don't make the mistake they often make... I.e. They should take the idea into the game, but redesign it to make sense in DDO. It should be DR at least equal to the shield AC bonus (not half). DR of 9 or 10 for a feat in this game is about right. DR of 5 would be a waste.

Better would be a damage mitigation based on percent. Perhaps 10% for the feat, with a line of enhancements that takes it up to 50%. When you are getting hit for 150 at a time, the existing DR in the game is just silly.

[Turial]

He specified non-mithral so that +5 mith fp could get +3 ritual AC like heavy armor, instead of +2 like medium armor.

Thats my point though. Mithral full plate isnt heavy armor and shouldnt get the +3 boost of heavy armor but rather the +2 of medium armor which it is for all the benafits and drawbacks of that weight class for armor.

[Angelus_dead]

The problem with enabling +6 or +7 on full plate is (again) the community. Everyone would start complaining that they never see +7 chain shirts.

Wrong. If +6 or +7 was allowed for fp and shield, there's be no reason at all not to let chain shirts have it too. High-AC dex builds do not wear chainshirts. They use robes for infinite max dex bonus.

This would be good, as long as they don't make the mistake they often make... I.e. They should take the idea into the game, but redesign it to make sense in DDO. It should be DR at least equal to the shield AC bonus (not half). DR of 9 or 10 for a feat in this game is about right. DR of 5 would be a waste.

Wrong. DR 9 for a feat is laughably overpowered. DR 5 for a feat would have been overpowered in D&D, which is good, because the suggested feat doesn't exist in that game.

Better would be a damage mitigation based on percent. Perhaps 10% for the feat, with a line of enhancements that takes it up to 50%. When you are getting hit for 150 at a time, the existing DR in the game is just silly.

No, that would be bad. Furthermore, you don't get hit for 150 in DDO, unless you have no fortification, in which case the silliness is all user-error.

[Borror0]

The community is a critical part of the gaming experience. And 90% of the players in the game are not happy playing alongside low DPS builds. No matter how effective a person is, they will have to endure pressure and derision from other players if it takes too long to kill stuff.

This is wrong. It's not their DPS that gets laughed at, it's their effectiveness.

Go back to Module 2 and you'll see what I mean.

Because of the above, it is important to get defensive builds [DPS] up [...] Most calculations I have seen currently show them at about 40 or 50% [which is too low].

That a pretty accurate statement. (As you can see, I'm not willing to put a percentage of where S&B should be at. totally arbitrary without testing,)

[Turial]

Wrong. If +6 or +7 was allowed for fp and shield, there's be no reason at all not to let chain shirts have it too. High-AC dex builds do not wear chainshirts. They use robes for infinite max dex bonus.
.

Because the robes we have are nice and there is no cloth version of mithral that one can get randomly.

[HumanJHawkins]

Thats my point though. Mithral full plate isnt heavy armor and shouldnt get the +3 boost of heavy armor but rather the +2 of medium armor which it is for all the benafits and drawbacks of that weight class for armor.

It's not a weight class distinction. IMO, if you cover yourself in metal plates, you have a better potential to be protected. Otherwise I would have just said "heavy armor +x". Mithril should get the same benefit as steel from the ritual.

Plus, it's a game balancing thing that is supposed to help S&B. Your suggestion would defeat the purpose.

[Turial]

It's not a weight class distinction. IMO, if you cover yourself in metal plates, you have a better potential to be protected. Otherwise I would have just said "heavy armor +x". Mithril should get the same benefit as steel from the ritual.

Plus, it's a game balancing thing that is supposed to help S&B. Your suggestion would defeat the purpose.

My suggestion would make mithral and non-mithral full plate equal, which would defeat something but I won't comment on what it is. +2 dex +2 ritual vs +3 ritual and +1 dex = +4 AC.

Its not a weight class distinction as you said but it is a matter of how that armor functions. Mithral armors don't require the same dedication in feats to use so you are opening the higher AC boosts to players who normally wouldnt be able to wear the higher class armors. And the boosting of non-mithral armor helps S&B more then the boosting of mithral armor due to stats. IE. if it takes 2 less dex to reach the max S&B AC that means you can have 2 more str which is DPS, which S&B lacks at times.

[HumanJHawkins]

My suggestion would make mithral and non-mithral full plate equal, which would defeat something but I won't comment on what it is. +2 dex +2 ritual vs +3 ritual and +1 dex = +4 AC.

Sword and board is all about AC. All AC sword and board builds have +4 or +5 mithril full plate at end game. (Because even a casual player can get +4 and it is better than +5 regular FP for AC). So, while your intentions are good, you are nerfing the exact set of people this is supposed to be helping.

The only (important) difference between Mithril FP and regular is that mithril allows dex builds +2 to their max dex bonus. Why would you want to nerf S&B builds who have enough dex to take advantage of this bonus? I.e. Why negate the only benefit those builds are getting for their choice to put a few points into Dex instead of STR?

(Side question: You say your proposal will make Mithril and non-mithril full plate equal. Ok... It would. But what possible reason could there be for doing this? Why not just take mithril out of the game?)

I probably won't reply since I will already have to work late to make up all this time on the forums, but suffice to say: Ugh!