Bow Rate of Fire vs. Melee attack rate

[EightyFour]

Well I just got my 25 black scales, and got some Blackhide armor for my Ranger, he's a bow user and I'm trying every thing to make him better than he is now. I would like him to be a good range attacker and it seems that I'm dreaming here that it could happen, minus finding a Heavy Repeating WoP crossbow or WoP Long/short bow maybe, repeater would be better though.

So this is what I started to look at, Rate of Fire vs. Melee attack rate, so I ren the numbers,
47 shots / minute (Basic RoF with bow, level 16, BAB +15).
53 shots / minute (Ranger with Rapid shot, Level 16, BAB +15) 12.76% increase.
56 shots / minute ((Same Ranger)Ranger with Rapid shot + Black Hide Dragon Armor) 5.66% increase if Rapid shot stacks/19.14% if it dose not.
59 shots / minute ((Same Ranger)Ranger with Rapid shot + Haste(No Dragon Armor)11.32% increase if Rapid shot stacks/ 25.53% if not.
61 shots / minute (Rapid shot + Black Dragon Armor + Haste) 29.78% increase if it doesn't stack with rapid shot, 15.09% if it dose. (I was a little shocked by this one, my mind still dose not want to except it yet I'm so used to the rules of stacking being Items + Feats + Enhancements)

Now the armor says 10% increase to range attacks, if a feat stacks with an item, which it normally does, than I should be showing
58 to 59 shot's per minute with the 10% increase, with haste I should be showing 66 to 67 shots per minute.

Also even with fixing these rates to what they should be, a hasted bow user is still going to dps more slowly than a tank without haste.

88 Swings / minute for a basic attack rate, Level 16, BAB +15, one handed weapon and shield.
98 Swings / minute when he is wearing Jorjundal's Collar, which is like the Black Hide Armor (10% increase in rate of swing) 11.36% increase.Much closer to the target.
115 Swings / minute when Hasted, this is a 30.68% increase. Also closer to the target.

I know this can't be an animation problem, you got 30 frames in a second to mess around with, more if you want to set them also.
So I'm guessing this is a programming problem?
1.) The reason I bring this up is I want my ranged ranger to do more damage, that's the first reason.
2.) I bring this up because not once have I seen this explained, maybe I missed it and someone can point this out to me where this question was answered, I looked but I found nothing, going to take someone with more patience then myself for looking through the forums. (I must admit I just did a search of Rate of Fire looking under posts and Threads, didn't turn up on the first page, it's prob. a lot further back, but also I'm pretty active in that Dev Tracker so I'm thinking I would have saw it at one point.)
3.) Huge difference between ranged and melee damage as a result of this.

Even if you gave the ranger manyshot for 20 seconds and it had a 40 second cool down, the melee is still getting more swings in, and getting more critical hit's, and doing more damage over time.

So I would suggest that you could either have double damage for every arrow, have two arrows fire every shot, or even make every other shot shoot two arrows. That would be my I don't know how the program works suggestions.

What I ask is if someone could take some time here and there and explain to me what is going on? Is this a balance issue? Maybe the overall feel is that ranged attacks could be to powerful if the rate of fire is increased? That everyone well pick up bows and kill everything from range? That ranger well become the most popular class? Just couldn't get the program to work right and it keeps getting bumped for the past two years down to the bottom of the list? Some information would go a long way in my book.

If anyone can show me a Dev post or something that show's why this has been a problem in DDO for so long and has not been put up for a revamp or fix, I thank you in advance for your time, I well check in on this post from time to time, so if you find anything out or find a sample of information on this, it would be very helpful in understanding what is going on.

Light Crossbow
Basic = 42 shots / minute
Rapid Reload = 52 shots / minute
Rapid Reload + Black Dragon Armor = 53 attacks / minute

Heavy Crossbow
Basic = 42 shots / minute
Rapid Reload = 52 shots / minute
Rapid Reload + Black Dragon Armor = 53 attacks / minute

Great Crossbow
Rapid Reload = 51 shots / minute
Rapid Reload + Black Dragon Armor = 53 attacks / minute

Heavy Repeater
Rapid Reload = 117 attacks / minute
Rapid Reload + Black Dragon Armor = 120 attacks / minute

These are rough numbers, they could be a shot off. So the great crossbow could be 52 shots / minute or 50 shots per minute, used the in game timers for these tests. It's likely that the Black Dragon armor does not work at all on crossbows.

[issiana]

i'm a bit rusty as to where i got this from, but i was always lead to believe it was a balancing issue.
Lets face it, you stand back and shoot things to death for next to no risk, where as the melee has massive risks in there attempt to kill things. So melee is balanced to do more damage vs ranged.

Is it right to be this way? i dont think so but i can see the balancing reasons to a certain extent if it was a pvp game.. but its not.

[MageLL]

With Improved Precise shot you can hit multiple targets for full damage. Compared to melee's grazing bonuses IPS is much better.

Ranging gives you the ability to avoid close combat damage. Dodging spells and arrows is fairly easy, while melees can do this from a distance, they do their most damage up close.

Arrows give bows the ability to deal multipe types of damage. An acid bow with fire arrows deal both acid and fire damage.

With that said, I still agree with you that the ROF should be turned up some.

[GlassCannon]

Devs hate Ranged combat(except Codog, who still has to answer to the head cheese, and has to say 'ok' despite not liking how gimped Ranged Combat is for PC's, and how uber it is for NPC's).

Simple as that.


They also hate tanks that try to chase feared or non-melee targets. That much is clear and self-evident(they expanded the hit box for running PC's, only to have the hitbox of the monster move around like a caffeinated OCD squirrel with severe multiple personality disorder, extreme schizophrenia, psychosis, and a wicked Crystal Meth habit, on cocaine and LSD). To further illustrate this point, observe the Bearded Devil.

I think they want everyone in DDO to simply cancel their subscriptions and move to a more 'lucrative' game, like LOTRO.



Yes, I own 3 Rangers and have retired 1 more. They are all capped, and the reroll was capped as well.

[iruka41]

Devs hate Ranged combat(except Codog, who still has to answer to the head cheese, and has to say 'ok' despite not liking how gimped Ranged Combat is for PC's, and how uber it is for NPC's).

Simple as that.


They also hate tanks that try to chase feared or non-melee targets. That much is clear and self-evident(they expanded the hit box for running PC's, only to have the hitbox of the monster move around like a caffeinated OCD squirrel with severe multiple personality disorder, extreme schizophrenia, psychosis, and a wicked Crystal Meth habit, on cocaine and LSD). To further illustrate this point, observe the Bearded Devil.

I think they want everyone in DDO to simply cancel their subscriptions and move to a more 'lucrative' game, like LOTRO.

In LotRO, Hunters are proudly decribed as a Nuker, and they really Nuke

Hmm, well, but I prefer Rangers in DDO over Humters in LotRO.

BTW, ranged combat has significantly improved compared to 2 years ago.

You used to have to stand still to reload unless you have SotR feat,
and much much low RoF, no BAB progression,
never get hasted by haste spell,
didn't even had precise shot lines.

So I have to admit that Devs' had worked hard enough to improve it.

IMO ranged combat is now pretty balanced.
If it gets any better, my repeater-specced bard will just be more stronger up to level of game breaking
(I'm already confident to solo 4 of 5 Meridia quests when this toon gets capped, that makes me saying the ranged combat is already balanced enough.)

If someone wants to argue with the ranged combat, they should specify it as a non-repeater-ranged-combat.
Just my thought. Maybe they can improve those 2 ranger specialties, Arcane Archer and Deepwood Sniper.
But rate of fire, I have no problem with that.

[Raithe]

Well I just got my 25 black scales, and got some Blackhide armor for my Ranger, he's a bow user and I'm trying every thing to make him better than he is now. I would like him to be a good range attacker and it seems that I'm dreaming here that it could happen, minus finding a Heavy Repeating WoP crossbow or WoP Long/short bow maybe, repeater would be better though.

So this is what I started to look at, Rate of Fire vs. Melee attack rate, so I ren the numbers,
47 shots / minute (Basic RoF with bow, level 16, BAB +15).
53 shots / minute (Ranger with Rapid shot, Level 16, BAB +15) 2.82% increase.
56 shots / minute ((Same Ranger)Ranger with Rapid shot + Black Hide Dragon Armor) 1.59% increase if Rapid shot stacks/4.23% if it dose not.
59 shots / minute ((Same Ranger)Ranger with Rapid shot + Haste(No Dragon Armor)3.18% increase if Rapid shot stacks/ 5.64% if not.

Your math is a bit off. Going from 47 shots per minute to 59 shots per minute is a 25.5% increase, which seems to suggest that Rapid Shot does not stack with haste [and I did not know that].

My calculations for my 14/2 ranger/fighter were 54 shots per minute, unhasted. With manyshot that goes up to 216 arrows per minute for 20 seconds, and balances out to 81 arrows per minute overall. It's actually very comparable to 1-handed fighting, only has the burst potential that is easily utilized to advantage.

Rangers are currently extremely overpowered in relation to the rest of the melee classes. Worrying about rate of fire for them seems a bit frivolous.

[Vagabond]

Rangers are currently extremely overpowered in relation to the rest of the melee classes. Worrying about rate of fire for them seems a bit frivolous.

But if you're specced for ranged combat you aren't specced for meleeing. Not everyone wants to be a melee fighter, The more builds/specs that are viable, the more variety you will see.

It seems wrong that the items/feats aren't stacking with haste here. It should be looked into.

[Raithe]

But if you're specced for ranged combat you aren't specced for meleeing. Not everyone wants to be a melee fighter.

In historic D&D, everyone was both ranged and melee (and some were magical), even within a single encounter. It is based off from a guerilla-style combat system and high degrees of specialization as you would see within a large infantry were not the norm.

The problem with DDO is that it has lost that realistic system to an unrealistic system of ego-boosting hero play.

1) Fighters: should be good with a bow and crossbow, but better with melee weapons
2) Clerics: should be fair with simple missile weapons, good with melee weapons, best with magic
3) Rogues: should be equally good with missile and melee weapons
4) Magic-users: should be fair with missile weapons, poor with melee, awesome with magic
5) Rangers: should be good with melee weapons, but better with bows (or visa versa, depending on the ranger type)
6) etc., etc.

Missile attack, however, was generally limited to the opening salvos of an encounter (except in the case of magic-users) and was generally lower-powered than getting up close and personal.

So what I am saying:

1) Having an entirely ranged-based build is not traditional D&D guerilla-style gaming.
2) If you want to complain about something, complain about the loss of the realistic combat statistics system and the inflation of monsters to beyond absurdity. Then characters not entirely specced for range could still use it.

[redoubt]

In LotRO, Hunters are proudly decribed as a Nuker, and they really Nuke

Hmm, well, but I prefer Rangers in DDO over Humters in LotRO.

BTW, ranged combat has significantly improved compared to 2 years ago.

You used to have to stand still to reload unless you have SotR feat,
and much much low RoF, no BAB progression,
never get hasted by haste spell,
didn't even had precise shot lines.

So I have to admit that Devs' had worked hard enough to improve it.

IMO ranged combat is now pretty balanced.
If it gets any better, my repeater-specced bard will just be more stronger up to level of game breaking
(I'm already confident to solo 4 of 5 Meridia quests when this toon gets capped, that makes me saying the ranged combat is already balanced enough.)

If someone wants to argue with the ranged combat, they should specify it as a non-repeater-ranged-combat.
Just my thought. Maybe they can improve those 2 ranger specialties, Arcane Archer and Deepwood Sniper.
But rate of fire, I have no problem with that.

The OP did specify bow rate of fire.

[redoubt]

Your math is a bit off. Going from 47 shots per minute to 59 shots per minute is a 25.5% increase, which seems to suggest that Rapid Shot does not stack with haste [and I did not know that].

My calculations for my 14/2 ranger/fighter were 54 shots per minute, unhasted. With manyshot that goes up to 216 arrows per minute for 20 seconds, and balances out to 81 arrows per minute overall. It's actually very comparable to 1-handed fighting, only has the burst potential that is easily utilized to advantage.

Rangers are currently extremely overpowered in relation to the rest of the melee classes. Worrying about rate of fire for them seems a bit frivolous.

The question and problem is about bow rate of fire. It has nothing to do with rangers. Rangers are a class. Bows are a weapon.

[Raithe]

The question and problem is about bow rate of fire. It has nothing to do with rangers. Rangers are a class. Bows are a weapon.

Bows are a manually loaded weapon and the entire loading and firing sequence is performed by a person.

Therefore, bows do not have a rate of fire. People with bows do.

[GlassCannon]

It's a shame our Bow skill doesn't increase as we fire hundreds of thousands of arrows....

I really would like Bow speed to be directly affected by how many arrows a person has used in their character lifetime...

Then again it would give Powergamers and Cheaters too much of an edge.

[GlassCannon]

In historic D&D, everyone was both ranged and melee (and some were magical), even within a single encounter. It is based off from a guerilla-style combat system and high degrees of specialization as you would see within a large infantry were not the norm.

The problem with DDO is that it has lost that realistic system to an unrealistic system of ego-boosting hero play.

1) Fighters: should be semi-good with a bow and crossbow, but better with melee weapons
2) Clerics: should be fair with simple missile weapons, poor with melee weapons, best with magic
3) Rogues: should be equally good with missile and melee weapons
4) Magic-users: should be fair with missile weapons, utter failure with melee, best with magic
5) Rangers: should be good with melee weapons, but better with bows (or visa versa, depending on the ranger type)
6) etc., etc.

Missile attack, however, was generally limited to the opening salvos of an encounter (except in the case of magic-users) and was generally lower-powered than getting up close and personal.

So what I am saying:

1) Having an entirely ranged-based build is not traditional D&D guerilla-style gaming.
2) If you want to complain about something, complain about the loss of the realistic combat statistics system and the inflation of monsters to beyond absurdity. Then characters not entirely specced for range could still use it.

1) It is effective.
2) I will complain until the world is perfect. You might as well get used to it

As for being limited to opening salvos, this is NOT British Regular fighting... we do not line up, shoot at one another, then rush in for melee.


Further, as noted by British Longbowman(In the medieval times), Ranged combat is MORE DEADLY than Melee in most occasions. Therefore our Rangers, comparative to current melee damage average of 25, should be hitting for 90-280 with an arrow(Base damage, 280 is a crit). Additionally, as noted by armor DR and Class, an Archer would not be capable of Melee, due to being as squishy as a Sorc, if not squishier. Let's toss logic and old failed tactics out the window at the same time. Sense and senselessness ought simply be discarded.

[Raithe]

As for being limited to opening salvos, this is NOT British Regular fighting... we do not line up, shoot at one another, then rush in for melee.

Further, as noted by British Longbowman(In the medieval times), Ranged combat is MORE DEADLY than Melee in most occasions. Therefore our Rangers, comparative to current melee damage average of 25, should be hitting for 90-280 with an arrow(Base damage, 280 is a crit). Additionally, as noted by armor DR and Class, an Archer would not be capable of Melee, due to being as squishy as a Sorc, if not squishier. Let's toss logic and old failed tactics out the window at the same time. Sense and senselessness ought simply be discarded.

You are talking about infantry (conventional) warfare. Arrows are not as effective as highly precise, professional melee strikes against full-plate armored special forces. Rangers are not archers, they are skilled hunter-type soldiers and survivalists. With a high dexterity, it makes sense that they can achieve higher ACs in the game than most other soldier-types. What doesn't make sense is that they do as much melee damage as a raged barbarian, do even more when fighting their favored enemies, and blow them out of the water when sniping against favored enemies with 4 arrow manyshot.

If you want to build an "archer" in D&D, you probably should use some sort of elven wizard configuration.

Most importantly, you don't disregard sense and senselessness in a regular game, let alone a roleplaying game. Games without logic or something applicable to reality are not worth playing, as they dull mental faculties rather than hone them, and most people consider them to be entirely lacking in fun.

[EightyFour]

I'm not willing to accept that precise shot or manyshot or combat from range has anything to do with this.

I mean, when's the last time your group let you conga line the mob's, sure when you solo, you can do whatever you want, you can also kit as long as you want, you could spend 8 hours kitting one mob tell it die's. But most of the time you are not going to get mob's in a conga line, the best you can get is like 3 to 4 mob's in a row because they are all piles around the group.

Manyshot while nice, I don't think it should be used as a "Catch up to melee damage" ability, I think sense it's a ranger ability, it should be used as something to help enhance the ranger, it should be a special ability the ranger can use, almost like something that would enhance your character rather then help them catch up to everyone else.

Combat from range, even in PvP games I have seen some wicked damage from range combat, a lot better than in this game.

Currently the way things work, ranged combat in general is not fun to play, well it's fun tell you remember that you can't do any damage tell your manyshot comes up.

Also I do use repeaters on a ranger, mostly stat damage, if someone what's to give me a WoP Heavy repeater and enough ingredants to craft all three tiers on my greensteel bow, than I'll stop talking about this, I'll still be upset about bow damage and RoF, but the WoP repeater would take care of enough of the game content to make it good enough that I wouldn't need to complain.

And your right, my math is off a bit, it's off on the melee's as well a bit, it should be about 11% with the collar and 30% with haste.

[EightyFour]

Also just wanted to add, I understand that this is a ranged problem, or bow problem, or bow RoF problem. But I play a ranger, so I make a lot of references to the ranger class, I'm not saying that anyone that want's to build anything else should be shoved to the side, this is a problem for all ranged combatant's.

I would also like to see throwing dagger, axe or whatever be able to use a thrown weapon in each hand and be able to damage as well, but I didn't build one so I'm not as passionate about that.

As I understand things in my world is the most important part of a game is to have FUN, and under the current ranged combat system it is NOT FUN at all, I'm sorry to say it, but when I see a ranged character in the group, I already know they are not going to be doing much damage, at least bow users, if they have a repeater the first thing I think to myself is "I hope they are using stat damage." So let's just throw WoP ranged out the window for the purpose of this discussion, as we all know WoP repeaters are awesome and the WoP bows are real good also, but when you run across a red named mob, what type of damage are you going to be doing, a lot less than the melee's, and who dose that hurt, it does not hurt the ranged combatant doing it, it hurts the over all damage of the party, the party as a whole is now less effective because someone had this crazy idea in there head that they put bows in the game because they wanted people to use them, I mean what the heck, why put a weapon in the game and than go out of your way to make sure it's buggy and not fun to play with.

I guess everyone gets a chance to be the star, and that's the role of the ranged combatant, to be saved when they get agro, so someone else can be the star right. Do I want to be the star of show, no, it's nice when it happens, but I don't go looking for it, do I feel a little bad for the party I join when I play my ranger, yeah I do, because I know I can log a tank and do 5 to 10 times the damage, but hey, I would like to be an effective damage dealer, is that too much to ask?

[Turial]

Eightyfour Give this thread a read: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=139451

If I remember correctly bow based ranged combat gets about 51-53 attacks per in with rapid shot at level 16. Manyshot will increase this to ~153 attacks per 2 minutes vs melees ~193 over the same 2 minutes. Rapid shot will stack with ranged alacrity from the black dragon leathers and the abbot quiver. Haste, however, is the spell that alacrity effects are based off of and will not stack with the ranged alacrity. I have a set of black dragon leathers and they currently sit in my bank because when I am in groups I can typically expect to be hasted which allows me to wear something else in the armor slot.

I feel your pain and anguish on the state of bow based ranged combat. iruka41 is correct in that ranged combat is a bit better then it was at launch....curses beta nerf bat. Codog is the patron saint for many of the ranged combat users due to his dog house thread where he listened to us and gave us feedback on why some things are the way they are and how he would like to change things. The issue is that beta testing results showed that ranged combat was too powerful when compared to melee. The things iruka41 touched on were some of the "balance" that was introduced. Balance that was well beyond what needed to happen. Since then ranged combat users have gotten some powers back but the two things we would really like to see are unlikely to ever happen. 1) increased ranged combat ROA to that of melee 2) manyshot as a stance with penalties to-hit. Personally I just want item 1 right now. As I said read though the thread I posted to see some of the ranged combat communities ideas on fixes and mechanics. Also it tends to be free of people who simply say melee and ranged can't be equal in speed because of risk.

[EightyFour]

Well I looked at almost all of Codog's posts, got tired on page 4 of 5 when I selected the back button on my browser and it gave me some vBulletin error that I didn't read as I'm a little tired.

These are the posts I saw about ranged combat:


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...70#post1789270

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...74#post1787474

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...71#post1544471
This one has a post about RoF in it

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...InZyyID3g553Mg
Item number 57 has not been addressed yet on this spreadsheet, but I see now that it is being looked at.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...20#post1467220
Attack progression

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122142&page=32
Bottom of the page, attack progression

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...70#post1435770
Aesthetics of ranged combat

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...58#post1428958
Best post so far, takes about in the begining the fear of too many arrows in world would cause major lag, and manyshot was something that got rushed into game, one of those got to get it done, but we dont have the time to do it things.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...47#post1411047
Ranged Combat, "Having more teeth", meaning that's it's in progress

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...78#post1408478
+500xp post for ranged combat ideas

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...97#post1404397
Posting about ranged combat suggestions

So I guess when I get another chance I'll go through the rest and see if there is anything else. But it seems that from what I can tell is that the issue is being kicked around a little, but it's seems the desire is to A.) Get it right and B.) progression well be slow as there are many other things that have to be done and C.) Codog cares very much and is trying his best to make this game even better that it already is and hopefully well get a chance to take a vacation some time and get some sleep.

I figure I well reread these later when I get a chance, maybe make some comments to make these clearer for someone just seeing the web address and maybe make them into links and such. (Ahh...they made themselves into links, that's helpful.)

So I guess what I'm going to do is find some of the things I liked in the game's that I have played before and try and figure out what made ranged combat so fun in those games. Hopefully I can help Codog run his marathon.

[Missing_Minds]

You are talking about infantry (conventional) warfare. Arrows are not as effective as highly precise, professional melee strikes against full-plate armored special forces.

Full plate special forces? I think you are confusing terms now.

How well do you know your history when it comes to warfare? I know that I do not know a whole lot, but even I know the French knights hated and feared English long bows. Wonder why that was.

[Griphon]

Full plate special forces? I think you are confusing terms now.

How well do you know your history when it comes to warfare? I know that I do not know a whole lot, but even I know the French knights hated and feared English long bows. Wonder why that was.

It's was because the pressure pound per inch of a Longbow easily allowed the arrowhead to puncture thickly plated 'Turtle' Knights.
That is compared to other weapons who 'pressure pound' 'per inch of weapon' was much greater and failed to properly make it through the plating....

The Longbow less training to be effective and deadly. This displaced the value of 'knights' dramatically and caused a socio-economic shift away from them.... Enough history Geek talk..

Increase the Bow speed, already.