Undead Hunter

[Dawnblade]

If I were to put together a character that would specialize in hunting undeads, is there enough content in the game to keep that type of character entertained? Would I be able to find enough to do in at least most level ranges? Right now I know of the catacombs, delera' s and necropolis. Is there anything else?

I was thinking something like a paladin with maybe some range for favored enemy or whatever else we think might help.

[wolfy42]

TWF ranger with at least 15 levels....favorite enemy enhancements and dual greater undead weapons would probably be your best bet (with the added bonus of greater undead ranged weapon with manyshot and improved precise shot as well).

Rangers are pretty much the king of specializing for 1 type of enemy (and almost all include undead there).

You get +2 base dmg at lvl 1 and another +2 dmg at 5/10/15.....maxing out at +8 base dmg to all favored enemies per hit.

In addition you can get an enhancement that boosts dmg vs favored enemies by 4 at lvl 13 ranger.


Thats 12 bonus dmg per "hit" to undead....and TWF feats making it 24 bonus damage per attack to undead wielding two weapons.


Toss in greater undead bane on both weapons...and your going to kill them faster then anyone else in the game pretty much (except of course clerics using turn undeads....but they can't do it as consistantly).

In addition using ranged weapons and improved precise shot you can hit whole groups of undead at a very rapid pace with manyshot. It only lasts a short time...but again with a good bow you can destroy them so fast it doesn't matter.

Anyway a paladin would not be your best undead killer. If anything you would want at LEAST 13 ranger lvls....so you could go ranger 13/paladin 3 I guess....but it's not really worth it in my opinion.

I'd say if you want to kill undead a tiny bit faster...go ranger with possibly a few fighter lvls for the +1 strength and attack speed boost.

In fact you can get by with only 1 fighter lvl (you lose out on +1 strength....but gain +2 dmg to undead from favored enemy at 15).

1 fighter lvl gives you an additional feat (always nice) and Fighter Haste boost for 15% faster attack speed (stacks with tempest) for 20 seconds.

You'd still get +24 dmg to undead per hit....and +10% faster attack speed with tempest....but you'd also get +15% faster attack speed with fighter haste boost (And this works with ranged attack as well...and stacks with tempest).

[Dawnblade]

How about the paladin enhancement to covert turn undead into AOE damage to undead? Is that not worth it? Along with all the dmg to evil skills they can get.

How about content though? Is there anything past necropolis? Or does necropolis cover the 7+ range for undead?

[Jondallar]

the paladin enhancement is junk not enough damage. the necropolis/orchard of the macabre has conent that is almost end game ..especially if you count the Abbot raid. If there is one area that DDO excells at its undead content/quests undead appear everywhere except the vale. ppl often complain that there are too many undead quests.

[Eladrin]

Divine Sacrifice now deals "light" based damage, which some undead are especially vulnerable to. If you're considering a Ranger/Paladin hybrid already, slapping a vampire around with a pair of appropriate melee weapons backed up with DS may work.

Divine Light isn't so hot, except possibly to grab initial aggro from a field of undead.

(commence DS hate... )

[Dexxaan]

I was going to start the DL hate thread...considering you yourself (Eladrin) admit it´s not so hot.....

How about we scrap Divine Light Enhancement to a line of Hate/Intimidate amplification like Div-Righteousness only that I´d like to think of it as the opposite of Rogue Subtlety....More hate generated and no "Need" for intimidate skill (Which we can´t have anyway unless you have a high INT and Human for Skill Points.)

Many threads have tackled the effect a Paladin´s could/should have on Evil Mobs.

[Jondallar]

Divine Sacrifice now deals "light" based damage, which some undead are especially vulnerable to. If you're considering a Ranger/Paladin hybrid already, slapping a vampire around with a pair of appropriate melee weapons backed up with DS may work.

Divine Light isn't so hot, except possibly to grab initial aggro from a field of undead.

(commence DS hate... )

DS rules ..very good enhancement. ty ty eladrin... divine light... not so hot as you said

[wolfy42]

Wow Eladrin, thanks for posting so much!! It's really appreciated.

I'm not saying DS blows......especially vs undead.....but I think the favored enemy bonus (believe it's 8 base at 15 + 4 from enhancements for 12 per hit.....24 per attack) far outshines the damage you do with divine sacrifice to undead.

I believe DS can go off every 3 seconds.......so even if you get just 5 attacks in that 3 seconds.....that would be about 120 extra dmg to the undead guy in the time of one Divine Sacrifice (for no hp or mana cost).

Even with 14d6 dmg from divine sacrifice (even if it's doubled vs undead) that still isn't quite a smuch damage...and if you miss...well there ya go.

Still I will admit that DS certainly makes a paladin a bit more comparable vs Undead to a ranger now (Since pretty much every ranger takes undead as a favored enemy...it's pretty silly that rangers have been the "undead killing specialists" for so long instead of paladins.

Great change to DS to help fix that

One way to make it a bit more even would be to add a consistent divine light bonus to the paladins wielded weapon. Instead of say DL doing 7d6 dmg and increasing the crit multiplier for 1 hit.....you can have each of the paladins weapons do an additional 1d6 (per lvl of divine light) light damage per hit...and increase their crit multiplier for the duration.

The ability could still cost 5 hp and 1 mana (possibly back up to 10 in this case) but it lasts for 10 seconds...instead of only 1 attack.

That could give a paladin 4d6 extra light dmg per attack with Divine Sacrifice II...along with a bonus to the crit multiplier for the entire time. The crit multiplier thing might be just a bit to much...especially if it stacked with Exaulted smite.

So instead how about changing it to a crit range increase? This would even allow the range increase to go up with higher levels of divine light.

Divine light I would be +1d6 light damage to weapon and +1 to crit range for 10 seconds. Cost is 10 hp and 5 mana.

Divine light II would be +2d6 light damage to weapon and +2 to crit range for 10 seconds. Cost is 10 hp and 5 mana.

Divine light III would be +3d6 light damage to weapon and +3 to crit range for 10 seconds. Cost is 10 hp and 5 mana.

The mana cost would be higher to create some for of cost if you actually try to keep the ability up constantly. 1 hp per second which ends up being the cost of the spell is pretty easy to keep up and deal with (even just with wands). 5 mana per 10 seconds though would restrict the use of this ability.

I think it would be great that way...especially vs undead if it was doubled. Divine light II's 2d6 dmg per hit.....would become 8d6 light dmg per hit vs undead enemies with GTWF......which is an average of 24 additional dmg per attack on undead.

Exactly the same amount of extra damage rangers currently get

[Dawnblade]

Ok, so we have discussed the damage aspect of the hunt. How about survival? Does the ranger excel in long lasting battles against many creatures? How about utility spells that can prevent damage or spells that perhaps help a party member?

When I think of paladins I never think of damage dealers, I always think of them from the point of view that they are a multi purpose class. They lack damage but are suppose to make it up in other areas (usually heals and damage mitigation skills).

Would a ranger still be preferable even if we factor other aspects of the paladin? Are the other aspects (defensive and support) of the paladin worth anything in this discussion? Or is the ranger damage so superior that it counts as a defensive/support (dead things don't do damage)?

[Ciaran]

Ok, so we have discussed the damage aspect of the hunt. How about survival? Does the ranger excel in long lasting battles against many creatures? How about utility spells that can prevent damage or spells that perhaps help a party member?

When I think of paladins I never think of damage dealers, I always think of them from the point of view that they are a multi purpose class. They lack damage but are suppose to make it up in other areas (usually heals and damage mitigation skills).

Would a ranger still be preferable even if we factor other aspects of the paladin? Are the other aspects (defensive and support) of the paladin worth anything in this discussion? Or is the ranger damage so superior that it counts as a defensive/support (dead things don't do damage)?

Rangers can get equal or better saves than a paladin depending on build. Most rangers also choose undead as favored enemy.

Rangers get barkskin, which at higher levels is a pretty substantial AC boost, can cast cure serious wounds, use CSW wands, have evasion (which, coupled with a high dex is important for undead that like to cast spells) and can get a very, very respectable AC with the right gear due to their high dex score, something you rarely see on a paladin and almost never the numbers a ranger is capable of getting.

So for pure DPS, survivability and general utility vs. undead rangers are definitely more than capable. I'd have to say that ranger damage can be superior to paladin damage. About the only thing paladins could be argued to have over rangers in regards to the undead would be UMD (highly debatable as several ranger builds can get a respectable UMD), Remove Disease (extremely minor bonus), Lay on Hands (pretty significant, especially if the paladin is spec'd to raise dead with LoH and good for a "finishing blow") and Smite Evil/Exalted Smite/Divine Sacrifice (how much of advantage or whether or not it is at all is probably debatable).

Take this as just my $.02.

[wolfy42]

Actually it's even worse then that since rangers get the following additional defensive advantages over a paladin.

Tempest adds +2 to ac while dual wielding weapons. There is a feat you can take (two weapon defense) which rangers have enough feats for due to getting TWF/ITWF/GTWF for free...that adds 1 more to ac while dual wielding.

That by itself is pretty significant....since with a shield spell going you have 7 AC constantly (you do need at least 1 rogue level to get your UMD high enough for constant 10 minute shield spells though....since you get +15% attack speed boost from 1 rogue lvl though...it's well worth it...you can still get 15 ranger levels for the full bonus to favored enemies.

So just with the above the ranger dual wielding has an equivalent AC to a paladin with a shield.

Dual wielding has significant advantages though such as having a +4 ac insight bonus on your offhand without losing a significant amount of damage (still do much more then sword and board.).

The ranger could also boost his dex with one weapon and grab the insight bonus with the other. The net advantage here is 2 more ac minimum (if the paladin uses an insight weapon with his shield) and 6 ac maximum (if the ranger uses insight and dex bonus and the paladin does not).

Thats not all though (Although already a significant advantage).....rangers can get favored defense IV that boosts his AC by 4 points (could get the same for resists although not really needed) when fighting favored enemies. Thats another significant advantage over the paladin when fighting undead. In fact the ranger could take favored attack and favored resistance as well (not needed).

Now the paladin gets a small advantage in his aura....giving a constant 5 AC boost that can not be gained through a potion. The ranger can boost AC by 5 as well...but it's a natural bonus that can be compensated easily and cheaply for with a bark skin poiton. The net AC advantage here from the paladin is 2 points...but one of those points isn't gained till lvl 15.

VS undead (or other favored enemies) the ranger can destroy the paladin especially if the paladin uses a shield. If both use two weapons...the ranger has 2 bonus AC from tempest, 1 bonus AC from TWD (pally doesn't have the feats for it), 4 bonus AC from favored enemy defense. That is a total of 7 AC more then the paladin. Two of those points are mitigated from the pally aura giving 5 AC as long as the pally uses bark skin potions....meaning the ranger has a 5 net AC bonus over the paladin if both use the same equipment.

Since the paladin needs charisma though...it's fairly common for the ranger to have 2 more dex then the paladin...unless the ranger is using a strength based build. If the ranger and pally are both using dex builds then the ranger probably has another 2-3 ac advantage from the additional 2 dex he starts with...and the 3 dex he can get from ranger enhancement (the paladin just gets charisma).

So when stats are factored in....in most cases the ranger will end up with about a 7-8 ac advantage vs undead or other favored enemies compared to a similarly equiped paladin (saying they are both using TWF).

Resists are a bit more confusing..and quite often the paladin will have higher will resists...but the ranger usually has equal fortitude and reflex resists to the paladin. The small difference in will resists is not a big deal.

Rangers also have far more skill points per lvl....which can make a difference in battle depending on what skills you choose. In fact if both the ranger and paladin take 1 rogue level for maxed UMD and rogue haste boost...the ranger can keep UMD maxed far easier then the paladin and still boost other skills as well. In fact due to the ranger having the ability to snag skill boosts as well...the ranger can be an effective trapmonkey while still retaining all of his favored enemies and other ranger bonuses.

For true undead slayage....I would highly suggest a ranger 15/rogue 1 build. While the sneak attack dmg from the 1 rogue lvl won't help much...the 15% increase to attack speed boosts will....and the maxed out UMD will as well.

UMD can get higher as a pally 15/rogue 1.....but you really don't need it that high...and the difference is only a 5 points or so.

Ranger ends up with something like:

8 base cha + 6 = 14 (+2 net)

UMD

18 base
+2 cha
+5 item
+2 luck
+5 skill boost
+4 GH
+2 WoTS
=38

A pally's ends up with:

14 base cha + 3 from pally + 3 from tome + 6 item=26 (+8 net)

18 base
8 cha
5 item
2 luck
2 skill boost
4 gh
2 wots
=41

3 point difference (15% chance) isn't huge....and the ranger could drop that to only 2 points by using a +2 cha tome (as apposed to the +3 tome the pally is already using).

High umd allows both to use shield wands, heal scrolls, raise dead scrolls etc.

The ranger can also search out and disarm traps just as well as a pure rogue pretty much (minus a few points here or there...but nothing huge). While that does not factor in to fighting undead....it's a nice added bonus.

Also it's important to mention that the ranger with only 1 rogue lvl still gets evasion (at lvl 10). The paladin HAS to take 2 rogue lvls to get evasion..which means losing 1 more AC from pally aura.

Net result here is that the ranger DESTROYS the paladin at fighting undead. The advantage of damage isn't significant anymore with divine sacrifice at least...but the paladin has to constantly sacrifice 5 hp and 1 mana every 3 seconds just to keep up with the rangers natural damage against them (And thats in optimal circumstance saying the undead never jumps back when you use your DS etc.

If it was just undead...the advantage would not be that great. Thing is the ranger gets a favored enemy at lvl 1/5/10/15......this allows for a wide range of creatures the ranger can choose as favored enemies AND the ranger can change them as well (especially at early levels when you might actually want to).

The first favored enemy most rangers take is undead...since you fight them constantly through all levels. Some people do take kobolds etc early on though and just switch it out later when they are going to start doing undead quests (Catacombs/Deleras/Necro etc). Switching out a feat is practically free pre lvl 5 anyway....so you could go with say kobolds for lvl 1-4....switch to undead before leveling up to 5 and snag giants at lvl 5 as well as an example.

Anyway thats alot of info...but yeah.....if you want to hunt undead (and there are undead everywhere..in gianthold.....in the desert etc etc) rangers are the way to go big time.

[Yaga_Nub]

Divine Sacrifice now deals "light" based damage, which some undead are especially vulnerable to. If you're considering a Ranger/Paladin hybrid already, slapping a vampire around with a pair of appropriate melee weapons backed up with DS may work.

Divine Light isn't so hot, except possibly to grab initial aggro from a field of undead.

(commence DS hate... )

Nope won't commence on the DS hate. It is a good enhancement and gives you something to do inbetween smites and other special attacks/spells/etc.

What I will commence on is the DL hate. That enhancement sucks! At tier 3 it should be a veritable nuke! Give it some love. Double all the damage and that's a start.

[MrCow]

What I will commence on is the DL hate. That enhancement sucks! At tier 3 it should be a veritable nuke! Give it some love. Double all the damage and that's a start.

Higher damage for Divine Light would be good, but I'd rather see it do something along the lines of halting undead for 2/4/6 seconds, causing them to stop in place and be actionless on a failed save. Something like this might actually be desired for things like shadows and wraiths.

[Yaga_Nub]

Higher damage for Divine Light would be good, but I'd rather see it do something along the lines of halting undead for 2/4/6 seconds, causing them to stop in place and be actionless on a failed save. Something like this might actually be desired for things like shadows and wraiths.

I like that. Double the damage and casts "Halt Undead" with no save for 3 seconds per tier.

[Jondallar]

when fighting mummies/vampires paladin inate fear and disease immunity coupled with remove curse wands/spell cant be beaten ( i know people can farm planar girds for gh to get fear immunity)

imo DS + divine favor = favored enemy + rams might as far as dps goes if you factor in other benefits/liabilities previously discussed

Its not fair to compare using the strengths of both dex based and strength based rangers to paladins... pick one or the other to mix both is unrealistic.

[Dawnblade]

Thanks for all the input. I guess I'll have to think of some other theme for my next paladin

[Mockduck]

TWF ranger with at least 15 levels....favorite enemy enhancements and dual greater undead weapons would probably be your best bet (with the added bonus of greater undead ranged weapon with manyshot and improved precise shot as well).

Rangers are pretty much the king of specializing for 1 type of enemy (and almost all include undead there).

You get +2 base dmg at lvl 1 and another +2 dmg at 5/10/15.....maxing out at +8 base dmg to all favored enemies per hit.

In addition you can get an enhancement that boosts dmg vs favored enemies by 4 at lvl 13 ranger.


Thats 12 bonus dmg per "hit" to undead....and TWF feats making it 24 bonus damage per attack to undead wielding two weapons.


Toss in greater undead bane on both weapons...and your going to kill them faster then anyone else in the game pretty much (except of course clerics using turn undeads....but they can't do it as consistantly).

In addition using ranged weapons and improved precise shot you can hit whole groups of undead at a very rapid pace with manyshot. It only lasts a short time...but again with a good bow you can destroy them so fast it doesn't matter.

Anyway a paladin would not be your best undead killer. If anything you would want at LEAST 13 ranger lvls....so you could go ranger 13/paladin 3 I guess....but it's not really worth it in my opinion.

I'd say if you want to kill undead a tiny bit faster...go ranger with possibly a few fighter lvls for the +1 strength and attack speed boost.

In fact you can get by with only 1 fighter lvl (you lose out on +1 strength....but gain +2 dmg to undead from favored enemy at 15).

1 fighter lvl gives you an additional feat (always nice) and Fighter Haste boost for 15% faster attack speed (stacks with tempest) for 20 seconds.

You'd still get +24 dmg to undead per hit....and +10% faster attack speed with tempest....but you'd also get +15% faster attack speed with fighter haste boost (And this works with ranged attack as well...and stacks with tempest).

Nice work on the analysis. Very informative. I've been thinking about an undead hunter, too. This would be excellent! Thanks for writing it up.