Grind vs Entertainment

[Varr]

In my opinion, grinding is a neccessary evil in this game. Non addicts have enough content to play 8 hours a week and form a very nice pair of characters and have a ton of fun doing so and aquiring everything but a couple of very special items (ie necro shields, shroud tier 3 items and the like.) But even if the content was magicaly trippled, in 60 days addicts like myself who play 30 hours a week and have a full stable of characters rolled would have very little to do but farm for planier girds. The Super elite grind items keep the game intriguing for gamers like myself by rewarding us with stupid good items occationaly. The grind items keep the game freshish since there is no concieveable way for content to be created fast enough to do so. Of course I would love for more content, but I believe that there are two basic players..........the casual and the addict (I clasify myself in the second catagory.) It is impractical for the casual to expect to aquire every item in the game and jsut as impractical to think content can be created at a pace fast enough for the addict. The high end super items that require grind are correctly in place as the best practical solution. For peace of mind, identify which of these players you are and accept the pros and cons of your playstyle and I believe you will come to enjoy the game much more.

[Zenako]

In my opinion, grinding is a neccessary evil in this game. Non addicts have enough content to play 8 hours a week and form a very nice pair of characters and have a ton of fun doing so and aquiring everything but a couple of very special items (ie necro shields, shroud tier 3 items and the like.) But even if the content was magicaly trippled, in 60 days addicts like myself who play 30 hours a week and have a full stable of characters rolled would have very little to do but farm for planier girds. The Super elite grind items keep the game intriguing for gamers like myself by rewarding us with stupid good items occationaly. The grind items keep the game freshish since there is no concieveable way for content to be created fast enough to do so. Of course I would love for more content, but I believe that there are two basic players..........the casual and the addict (I clasify myself in the second catagory.) It is impractical for the casual to expect to aquire every item in the game and jsut as impractical to think content can be created at a pace fast enough for the addict. The high end super items that require grind are correctly in place as the best practical solution. For peace of mind, identify which of these players you are and accept the pros and cons of your playstyle and I believe you will come to enjoy the game much more.

but but but....that would mean almost nothing to rant about for many....how can people be held responsible for what they choose to do with their entertainment time.... it is always someones fault....

[rimble]

The problem lies in the fact that after a certain point the only form of advancement is via gear, and here the casual player gets caught in a Catch-22:

I'm a casual player, I don't have the time to raise a bunch of alt's. I'd like to focus my play time on this one main character.

I've finally gotten my main character to level 16, let me try and make that Greensteel item I keep hearing about so I can continue to feel a sense of progress and accomplishment.

Oh, that requires an excessive amount of 60-90 minute loot runs of the same boring instance over and over.

Great, now I don't have the time to advance my main character (via equipment) and I don't have the time to start an alt from scratch.

Hey, when does that Conan game come out...?



It's not fair to say 'ignore the grind', because right now, the end game is synonymous with grind. And as soon as you go there you alienate alot of casual players. Anyways, saying 'sorry casual guy, you don't get to play this content, accept it and be happy' is no better than the casual guy saying 'sorry grinder, you went through all the content, go play something else'. Surely we can work something out.


Note: I'm a casual addict.

[Varr]

In response to rimble, I agree that once you cap one toon..........it is capped. Untill a higher level cap is instituted, other than creating really high end items, that toon is done as being playable. For my addict group fortunalty there are enough tough grind items that are desireable to give us something to do for some type of character advancement still. For casual players like yourself the problem is far easier to address.........roll that second or third toon. Try a cleric or sorc or pali. The game is drasticly different and better for you casual players already in that running Stormvaulds mine for the 4th time ever, 1st on a melee as an example is both fresh and exciting. Once a cap increase is insituted then you can revisit that first capped toon. Not saying this is a prefect system, but it is understandable. If your goal is to play one and only on character and have capped that toon, my follow up suggestion is if you can only see your self as a rogue (the master class) then roll up a new one. Im guessig you have learned a temendous amount and would like to have a 32 pt improved and smarter version of the origional. The casual players con is the difficulty in getting uber items. Im betting you still have come across in causal play a very nice set of toys for your toon. I have an experiment going right now on a different server to reaquaint myself with the casual players viewpoint (a 28 pt level 6/1 wizard/rogue totaly untweeked and even unable to buy at anyvendor or ah. Only playing what I find and this toon is not uber, but still very very playable and alot of fun.)

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The problem is if they create overpowering items you get by grinding they then end up "rebalancing" for those items so everyone and not just the addict has to have them or they can't compete in new content. Just look at all the threads where some ppl say Harry has too many HP in shroud 5 while others say "but with most ppl in the party dual weilding Mineral 2 kopeshes he goes down in 2 minutes tops, you obviously don't belong in the shroud".

Grind is bad.

The box DDO is sold in actually brags there is no grind.

[Varr]

Ill better be able to respond to this as my experiment toon levels into the teens, but believe even without the top tier loot, a decently play character in a decently played group can smooth thru level approprate stuff. Here comes the blashphemy...........The Tor (other than one time for reaver readiness), the shroud, and pretty much anything to do with the Abbot..........these quests are really best serving the addict. A couple runs thru the shroud for a causal gamer with that level 16 toon should be very doable, but not directly in his wheelhouse. These few quests have been created in my opinion to allow for the addict to have something productive to do while awaiting level cap increases. All the quests like three barrel cove, and redwillow, and so many other low xp, but well constructed quests give the casual gamer new and fun experiances. Im first in line for more content and narrowing each play styles cons while promoting there pros........simply trying to balance the tremendous frustrations and irritations some players feel into a more realistic expectation set.

[Allistair]

I think your confusing addict with "Power Gamer"

I have 2 accounts with over 20 toons at various levels. One at level 16 and 3 more at Level 15 that I can't bring myself to play because
the new content (Shroud) is such a Grind. a friend and I recently just brought new lowbies up to Level 12. It was a blast. No quick power leveling,
we ran quests that we'd normally skip.
Now, I log in for 3 hours or so a night and spend well over 8-10 hours on Saturday and Sunday (each) So were looking at 30-40 hours a week
easily (Man I have to cut back) I have not made one green steel item, because I don't want to grind for the pieces needed to make them.

Am I addicted to the game? Yes
Am I a power gamer? No

The power gamers are the ones that want to Grind. They are the ones that NEED the best of everything.
Some of us just really enjoy the game and enjoy playing a vaiety of characters, and see what each is capable of achieving.
Grinding is not a neccessary evil, it's a way to appease a percentage of the population.

[Raithe]

In my opinion, grinding is a neccessary evil in this game.

No, the problem isn't that there isn't enough content to avoid grinding, nor is it that obtaining loot requires too much grind. The problem, and a completely unnecessary evil, is that grinding content for loot is the base framework of this game. In a typical D&D game the base framework revolves around heroic stories and character roleplaying.

Hey, when does that Conan game come out...?

May 20th, maybe earlier for some. Isn't it sad that a game not based on D&D is going to include PvP-RP servers where grinding for loot is going to be a thoroughly background activity in servitude to the primary game structure, while this game is tragically mired in its ridiculous game structure?

[Varr]

In response to Allistair........my suposition is that there are two general catogories of players that make up about 80% of the player base and im tearming them addicts and casual..........terms can be whatever you choise and there is certainly a decent percentage of players like yourself that are a bit less polarized in playstyle. Just some generalizations here based on my evaluations of the game and playerbase. The thread is my general opinion in response to a number of threads I have read that are more demoralizing than productive. Hum Im using alot of big words here so must be getting preachy............simply put, as with life, realize your strengths and weakness (in this case general gameplay,) and adjust accordingly to have a good time.

[Oreg]

I am inclined to think that there is a third phase. I go through periods where all i want to do is speed run for either loot or xp (grind) and other periods where I just want to run a few quests and hang out and chat with my buddies (entertainment). Then there is a third phase where my wife says " how come you haven't logged in at all during the last x days? " and I realize that I had no desire to even log in during that time.

What is my point? Not that there are general "categories of players" but general categories of phases that online players go through. Some stay in one phase forever while the more "addicted" tend to cycle through all of them.

[Turial]

The box DDO is sold in actually brags there is no grind.

There is no box....only CUBE!