Better than Quivers?!

[Bloodyfury]

First, I dunno to which Devs this suggestion might be good for (maybe Silthe?), but here we go...

I do like to play range combat in most games (for various reasons useless to state in this post) so this is something I "tested" in many games as this is usually the first thing I try in most games. I went back to LOTRO last week to have some diversity in my gaming experience like many gamers, so i started to play my good old Hunter (a range DPS) and I had a lot of fun.

In DDO, I'm completely sold to repeaters since launch and put massive efforts to get full sets of light & heavy repeaters for my builds. I also tried an unusual build for a "bow ranger" and it happened to be pretty **** good and fun to play. BUT... ammunitions system is a real PITA in DDO!!

We'll never say it enough I think and it became really obvious when I played LOTRO... When I go on an adventure with my LOTRO Hunter, I don't have to bother at all with regular ammunitions! SO FUN! And this is a HUGE part in the fun we can get some this kind of gameplay. To which points do we have to make things looks "like real life"?

I mean, in a MMO (be it in DDO, LOTRO, WoW, or whatever you can think about), do we have to drink stuff regularly or have chance to die from being thirsty?? Do we have to eat regularly or die from starving?? Do we have to go to the bathroom or we stink??

Our characters handle these automatically because they are natural needs, we don't have to bother with any of this. And I fail to see why it should be different with basic ammunitions. For a range toon, his life is highly tied to his ammunitions. For him, this IS a natural need, there's no way he's gonna say to himself: "Cool I've 200 arrows, I should be good to kill 300 kobolds!" If he didn't had enough ammos, he would simply refuse to go out questing anywhere don't you think? Cuz for him, this is an essential need as much as drinking or eating! And he's gonna make sure everytime he has enough to slay the whole Nine Hells if he has to

When people started to talk about quivers a few months ago and that we learned they would work on that, we were all happy, with reasons! This will be a great addition for sure.

But will it be enough? I doubt it.
Will this change the range experience more enjoyable? Maybe.
Will this makes range combat more enjoyable? Pretty sure it won't.

Why? Cuz the same pattern will remain unchanged. Quivers will save us some space, yeah, but we'll still have to lose some time, uselessly and regularly, to buy the ammos.

My suggestion for this issue for DDO?

Make it so we can have permanent ammos for regular ammo only! Not for Deneith ammos or any special & magical ammos, only for regular exactly like in LOTRO and many other games. And continue to use the actual systems for the magical/special ones like it is at the moment. You want to use some Deneith ammos? Cool, but you'll have to buy them to use somes. Want to use some slaying arrows? Great, find somes! You don't feel like wasting your time for any kind of special ammos other than the regular stuff cuz you think you're fine the way you are? Great! Enjoy your playtime like you should be able to and don't bother with ammos like most other games! That would make it SO MUCH more enjoyable... No more stupid message "Error: Out of ammo!".... Out of ammo = unlimited regular ammo!


Recently my brother wanted a repeater build like one of mine so I helped him to start it. It was just funny when I had to explain him about range combats in DDO...

Bro - "So how many bolts do I buy?"

Me - "Well you don't really have the choice, you gotta fill up your inventory with the max ammos you can."

Bro - "Uh? Why so?"

Me - "Cuz ammos are used way too fast. If you don't fill your inventory, you're gonna end up with no ammo in the middle of a quest. And you don't want that "

Bro - "Ok, I'll full my inventory then." (minus 2-3 free space for stuff, not much more)

Now, keep in mind that this is my bro's 2nd toon only, he doesn't know each quest real good and the game is still kinda new for him in many ways. Then a few minutes later...

Bro - "Well that sucks, now I can't get my stuff from chests to sell them and I won't make any money at all. I'll just buy less bolts to take stuff from the chests next time."

Me - "You could. But then, after each quest you'll have to refull on bolts to be sure you'll have enough and ppl grouping with you are just gonna be ****ed off to have to wait for you after every single quest cuz otherwise you won't have enough ammos to run 2-3 quests in a row..."

Bro - "Ah, true...".

So now, it kinda ruins the experience for a new player like him cuz the game system compells him to play a way he wouldn't want to play normally. As he's not rich at all, he doesn't necessarily understand that loot at low-mid lvl isn't that great and that it's not with THESE stuff he's gonna make a lot of cash. Admit it, for a new player, getting chests after chests of loot you can't grab is lame, no matter how much it's worth...

People will say: "Yeah, but it's normal, we don't have as much inv space when low level."

True & false. The more we level, the longer it is to kill the mobs, so you end up with more inv space but do need more ammos than ever cuz you're gonna use more than before.

But the most important fact about a change like this would be... improving the fun we can have from range combat. A lot have been made lately (especially CODOG, tx again!) but wasting time over and over and over again for something as basic as regular ammos that doesn't give any bonus at all just isn't right imho... I think LOTRO vision of range combat is simply awesome and much better than DDO and that changing this would simply improved DDO experience. It could only be positive!

Waiting for comments

[Stormanne]

While this makes absolute since to some degrees, you have to remember that the core rules upon which this game is built include resource management. In a perfect world (online that is) I'm sure the developers would love to make all that "automatic" stuff player required to bring it inline with D&D pen and paper. Resources required for that on the tech end would be massive though...

[Bloodyfury]

While this makes absolute since to some degrees, you have to remember that the core rules upon which this game is built include resource management. In a perfect world (online that is) I'm sure the developers would love to make all that "automatic" stuff player required to bring it inline with D&D pen and paper. Resources required for that on the tech end would be massive though...

True.

But there's so much thing "not in line with the PnP version" to make it more player friendly in a MMO that this argument barely suits any "improvements" to the game at this point.

Honestly, between you and me... in what is it really a good thing that you have to bother about regular ammos in DDO? I mean, these ammos won't even gives you +1 or +2 or +3 bonus, not even masterwork ones, just regular ones. What bad could it cause?

So far, the only impact it has on the game in general is a negative one. Cuz if you think to buy them, it doesn't give you any other advantage other than being able to play your toon the way he should be played. It'll simply makes you lose some playtime on a regular basis and is kinda a bit too much like in real life imho, in a way where you must CONSTANTLY think about it otherwise you're sc*****! Definitely not the feeling a MMO should gives to any player...

However, what happens if someone didn't realize he was soon gonna be short on ammos? You run out in the middle of a quest.

Outcomes:

1. You then are of no help to the party in this situation.
2. The guy might have to recall and lose some XP to get back in just to buy ammos.
3. Stays in the quest and be somehow less useful for the rest of the quest as he's build mainly for range. (No silly arguments about wpn finesse and carrying melee wpns please lol Everyone knows that! Keep in mind the toon isn't build for melee but range! How often do you see a melee start to range cuz his melee stuff is no longer usable?? Yeah... )
4. People surely won't appreciate to have to wait for this guy. That's where comments like "range sucks" are kinda hard to refute
5. Probly many more things could be add but it is useless as the disadvantages list is already way bigger (4) than the advantages one (0)

As for the tech aspect of something like this, I don't think it would be that hard to implement (hope I'm right!)

When a bow is equipped, ammo slot automatically becomes a stack of 100 regular arrows 100% returning. When equipping a crossbow (repeater or regular), ammo slot automatically becomes a stack of 100 regular bolts 100% returning.

Simply ANY stacks of ammos equipped would then overwrites these 100% returning regular stacks. Once "out of ammo", 100% returning regular stacks are createdf and back on. As simple as it can be...

[herzkos]

as a repeater user, I say don't change it.
yes I have run into issues with having the full inventory
message pop up. when i get that message, and there is
something i want in the chest, i simply open up the inventory
screen and dump my partially used stack of bolts. Then reload
with a full set and click the item/items in the chest I want.
In long dungeons, with a rptr, i generally go through bolts fast enough
that i always have 3 or 4 empty slots. now that i have enough D favor
on my rptr build, I only carry about 1000 sturdy bolts.

the only problem is, you can't be a rptr user at this time and be
a pack-rat. you have to sell the stuff you get, or put it in the bank.
otherwise, you will run out of inventory space or bolts.

/sarcasm on, ooh, and while we're at it, lets give all casters unlimited
spell components for the same reasons listed as infinite bolts/arrows

[Gorgarr]

I guess DDO does not think that a ranger is smart enough to swap ammo whne he changes bow types. Anyone else notice this. When i go from my Great X bow to my composite longbow the ammo does not change. If you ask me this is STUPID. I pretty sure if I were hunting with a crossbow and then picked up my longbow I would not try to use a BOLT instead of an arrow.

[Lifespawn]

as a repeater user, I say don't change it.
yes I have run into issues with having the full inventory
message pop up. when i get that message, and there is
something i want in the chest, i simply open up the inventory
screen and dump my partially used stack of bolts. Then reload
with a full set and click the item/items in the chest I want.
In long dungeons, with a rptr, i generally go through bolts fast enough
that i always have 3 or 4 empty slots. now that i have enough D favor
on my rptr build, I only carry about 1000 sturdy bolts.

the only problem is, you can't be a rptr user at this time and be
a pack-rat. you have to sell the stuff you get, or put it in the bank.
otherwise, you will run out of inventory space or bolts.

/sarcasm on, ooh, and while we're at it, lets give all casters unlimited
spell components for the same reasons listed as infinite bolts/arrows

this snarky remark just makes you look stupid as there is no way to go through 4000 spell components in even a week of playing while you can do 4000 bolts or arrows in 1 day atleast when being an arse try to make sure your foot doesn't end up in your mouth.


Set 100% returning regualr arrows is a great idea and would not invalidate anything like the arcane archer or house d arrows it would just ease the pain of questing.

[Bloodyfury]

Btw Herzkos, you kinda missed the whole point of the thread, might want to read again. Sure I'm talking about inv space as it was the major argument to bring quivers in the game soon. But my suggestion is mainly toward the fact that the game compells us to REGULARLY restock on ammos at a pace that is incompatible with enjoyment. And that this is the only type of play in the game that it bothers us that much and that often.

Fyi Herzkos, for a "real" repeater build... I can buy around 30-40 stacks of +3 Sturdy House D bolts and if I play only that toon, I'll have to refill after a few hours (like 3-4 hours max). However on my pure sorc, I don't even remember the last time I bought components... about once per 3-4 months?

The suggestion isn't unbalancing anything in the game, simply preventing players from losing REAL TIME uselessly and regularly on something that only allows us to play a toon, the way it should be...

Edit: Ok I was a bit expeditive, my apologies to Herzkos...

[Juni]

There was a suggestion that I made a long while back before there was talk of quivers.

There is one thing that would help out range combat alot

Make arrows/bolts stack in sets of 500 instead of 100 this would allow for more inventory space for looting or carry other needed items.

Arrows/bolts shouldn't be unlimited but there would be one other thing that could help allowing the ranged combat users to attempt to loot arrows/bolts from the bodies of monsters they have fired on or have the arrows/bolts drop to the ground after the monsters die.

But I personally like the idea of arrows/bolts stacking in groups of 500.

[BlueLightBandit]

Hello Horse... sorry to hear that you're dead, but I'm gonna come over in a few minutes and beat you up... just thought you'd like to know.

There's a whole thread about this with Codogs name on it. Might want to look for it.

[herzkos]

[/I][/B]

this snarky remark just makes you look stupid as there is no way to go through 4000 spell components in even a week of playing while you can do 4000 bolts or arrows in 1 day atleast when being an arse try to make sure your foot doesn't end up in your mouth.


Set 100% returning regualr arrows is a great idea and would not invalidate anything like the arcane archer or house d arrows it would just ease the pain of questing.

Any reason for the personal attack? thanks for calling me stupid and an arse. Just because you disagree with a statement, doesn't
give you the right to insult people.
However, if you take the time to examine the OP's point (about running to buy stuff and making the party wait, or recalling out of
a quest and making people wait or even just wasting time by going to buy stuff) the statement (though admittedly snarky) still holds.
Have a nice day, and please try to be civil in disagreement

/snip

When accusing someone of doing something, please try to not do exactly what you're accusing them of.

/snip(irrelevant to thread)/
I could use that many bolts (30-40) stacks in 3-4 hours if I were soloing
and kiting but thats about it. Also, at the rate you're using bolts (10 stacks an hour . . . your math not mine) It's not all that
outrageous to swing by house D and buy some more after 4 hours! Or every hour if you only have 10 stacks like me.
/snip (irrelevant to thread)/

p.s. I like the idea of stacks of 500.

[MysticTheurge]

I like this idea.

There's no reason not to allow people to have automatic "arrows" or "bolts."

I mean, you're not even talking masterwork here, right. All it would do is give people something to fall back on if they run out of ammo mid-quest. (Or, I guess, it would allow people to decide whether they want to bother with arrows at all.)

Actually managing your ammunition would give better results (because you can get magical arrows), but you wouldn't have to if you were willing to accept the nonmagical arrows.

[roadkill525]

I came here from lotro and I gotta say the requirement for arrows and bolts is one of the reasons I like this game so much. I'm tired of MMO's being made to cater to the so called casual players. I'm a casual player, I like to group, I like when MMO's take the time to add things like ammo to the game. the more you take out the shallower the game gets, lotro is a huge and very pretty game, but its booring. once ya wore away the newness of it theres really no reason to pay a monthly fee to get the same experiance ya can get from one of the single player games.

quivers are a good idea, let us carry more with out useing up so many slots. I think the game needs componit kits and potion bags too. but if this game did away with ammo completly I might have to go looking for a game to call home again. keeping track of ammo and running out in the middle of a dungeon is part of what makes the game fun. I mean if ya get rid of arrows why should casters need items to carry around stuff to cast there spells. and why should anyone have to carry around potions, they are slowing things down and clogin up my invatory too, nevermind the fact they cost an arm and a leg. why not come up with away that I don need to buy potions anymore I just get an unlimited number of free spells.

once you start removing things to make the game easier, you end up with a game like lotro. its a pretty game and seams slot of people like paying to have everything handed to them. but I enjoy ddo the way it is.

[geoffhanna]

• Quivers
• Stacks of 500 ammo (or 1000)
• Automatic standard arrows/bolts

I vote yes on all three.

p.s. Arcane Archer sort of gives you the third option, if you build your character that way, and use bows.... uhhh nevermind guess that's not really the same at all is it? I do like it on my ranger tho

[Razvan]

I like this idea.

There's no reason not to allow people to have automatic "arrows" or "bolts."

I mean, you're not even talking masterwork here, right. All it would do is give people something to fall back on if they run out of ammo mid-quest. (Or, I guess, it would allow people to decide whether they want to bother with arrows at all.)

Actually managing your ammunition would give better results (because you can get magical arrows), but you wouldn't have to if you were willing to accept the nonmagical arrows.

I agree with this idea if it were to be implemented right: First, I DO NOT like the idea of "phantom" arrow, when, like in so many games (including MMOs), your character can pull arrows out of his or her arse and shoot them...that is stupid...it looks stupid, it feels stupid...just like wathcing "The Highlander" series and seeing those immortals pull their swords from god knows where, hinting at the fact that they were carrying with them all the time.

So, rather than making this stupid, implement a low level quest (similar to the one with the dragon marks) which every character can do, and the reward for it would be on 100% BOUND returning arrow (no +1, no anything on it...not even Masterwork just like MT said), with the option of getting a new one if you loose this one, or destroy it or it magically disappears (bugs anyone?)...just like the silver flame trinket.

I would go with that...but again, please...NO PHANTOM ARROWS!

[Missing_Minds]

I've played all the styles of range out there. Bag space was an annoyance at best, and groups that didn't wait a bit to let me pick up some amo inbetween long sets of quests are just annoying pugs.

It is really up to you to restock when you need to, not find a group, then restock.

Even on my repeater builds, I found 1500 bolts more than enough, even on something like waterworks. Graymoon.. emm... maybe, Co6, forget it. Had to restock.

If you have to have that many bolts just to survive one quest you were making it sound, do you EVER keep your finger off the trigger finger or do you just love to annoy the party kiting everything around? Kiting everything is about the only thing I can think of as to why you'd run out so darn fast to be the reason why you'd have to loose so much bag space that you are complaining about.

[TFPAQ]

... But not the personal attacks.

Make stacks of 1000, fine. We know that othe items can be stacked to 1000. Plenty of room then.

"Normal" returning arrows? Sure.... make the game more enjoyable for some players, I'm all for it. The more players the longer the game exists.

Quiver? Fine.


- But I would guess that the devs could drop in a stacking change virtually undetectably without a bunch of problems. If not, do some of u remember how our returners would "add up"? lol

[Emili]

I actually prefer the larger stacking numbers others suggest.

I've played all the styles of range out there. Bag space was an annoyance at best, and groups that didn't wait a bit to let me pick up some amo inbetween long sets of quests are just annoying pugs.

It is really up to you to restock when you need to, not find a group, then restock.

Even on my repeater builds, I found 1500 bolts more than enough, even on something like waterworks. Graymoon.. emm... maybe, Co6, forget it. Had to restock.

If you have to have that many bolts just to survive one quest you were making it sound, do you EVER keep your finger off the trigger finger or do you just love to annoy the party kiting everything around? Kiting everything is about the only thing I can think of as to why you'd run out so darn fast to be the reason why you'd have to loose so much bag space that you are complaining about.

While I probably should not be soloing this at level 6... I do remember running out of arrows in greymoon part 4 on elite, I was level 6 at the time on my ranged base ranger... I brought along 1500 +3 arrows with me prior to entry, however the scorpians in greymoon were/are the true boss of that dungeon, taking no less than 1200 arrows for a level 6 ranger to eliminate. Mind you a level 6 soloing greymoon parts 3 and 4 I supose is a tad off what the dev's and others would agree with... I did so in order to aquire her house D favor 75% returning... I did so because I was fed up with greymoon and trying to build and hold a party's attention long enough to get my bloody ranger through to elite Co6 after days of discontent of rerunning greymoon parts 1-3 over to have people drop and new people come in to start over, and over and over... What's really ridiculas is I did this twice ... once when Ambyre was a drow ranged ranger, and then again after the enhancemnt system opened up and I rerolled her from cap into an elf ranged ranger.

Here is what I do about ammo anymore... I run to house D stock up on 1000-2000 +3 sturdies and put them all in the bank - requires bank space of course... then I restock her again with +3 sturdies... that way I'm not running from necropolis, GH or meridia as often inbetween quests. I can run to the bank should I feel I'm getting low. Typically I only carry about 500-700 arrows on Ambyre... the difference here is that 500-700 75% returning is equal to 875-1225 non-returning ammo.

Another option which although related goes outside the questing aspect... which is more common in DnD is to actually fletch - but that would involve crafting and taking the time to do so... which also possibly leads to another source of income outside the quests - of which am not sure the devs wish to go there... It is another aspect of DnD however.

[Hambo]

I also like the idea of larger stacks of arrows/bolts.

I like the idea of quivers as well.

What I would like to see is the ability to put ammunition on the quickbar... IE sturdy arrows in one slot, +2 frost arrows in the next, etc. In addition, I'd like to change the ammo type by clicking the quickbar, and have autoreloads limited to only the identical type. I for one am tired of autoreloading ammo based on inventory position rather than ammo type, particularly if I'm using, say, a stack of Deneith sturdy arrows that finally runs out and to be reloaded with Masterwork arrows picked up in a chest somewhere. When THEY run out I get the "Out of Ammo" message even though I still have over a thousand Deneith arrows in my pack! This would also prevent wasting "enhanced" ammo on the wrong targets without realizing it.

As far as normal ammo taking up a lot of space, I can easily toss a 1gp stack of arrows to get an item I can sell for 25gp and buy a new stack for 1gp... Net gain: 24gp.

[FluffyDucky]

• Quivers
• Stacks of 500 ammo (or 1000)
• Automatic standard arrows/bolts

I vote yes on all three.

I add my yes vote for all three however stacks of 1000 arrows would greatly reduce the need for unlimited standard ammo.

I also see no big deal with getting rid of standard spell components. If there were smaller stacks and every spell had it's own unique and expensive component it would defiantly change game play and make resource management more 'interesting' for casters but with the current system they may as well be unlimited for all the effect they have. Once a week spending a few gold to buy a 50 lb bag of sand or the jumbo bag of pork rinds has little to no effect and would not be missed (by me) if removed.

Ammo stacking to 1000 would put arrows in the same category as spell components. I think this may be the best solution to satisfy the OP and people like herzkos who like the 'realism' of buying sand so they can throw the jump, grease, or cold ray spells.

[oronisi]

Without having to revamp their ranged ammunition system, all the devs need to do is add a couple new items to the loot table:

+[1,2,3,4,5] [Silver/Adamantine/whatever] Returning [Arrow/Bolt]

None of this 75% returning BS.