Having trouble working out a Ranger/Rogue archer

[sephiroth1084]

So, I remember that last year, there were a lot of folks with a Ranger/Rogue/Fighter build running around, but I don't see anyone posting that anymore. My question, I suppose, is what should I be doing with my character?

I want to be archery focused (is this worthwhile?), but would also like to be able to fill the rogue's roll of unlocking and disabling stuff. The problem I see is that a Rogue/Ranger combo doesn't get enough of the necessary feats to do this, but splashing Fighter puts a huge dent in skills.

So here are my questions:
-Is archery, with all the changes they've made to it, a worthwhile primary combat tactic?
-What class or combination of classes (and what order) should I be looking to do?
-Elf or Drow?
--If drow, should I still focus on bows or should I go with shurikens?
-Which feats should I be taking and in which order?
--Is Precise Shot worthwhile at low levels?
-For the levels where I cannot max all the skills from Rogue, which should I drop in order to boost Disable and Open?
-What would a good stat array look like?

When I tried this character out, I found that I was sneaking most of the time, and firing at enemies until they got too close and then would either tumble away and shoot, or go TWF, so sneak attack is a good fit.

[DragonKiller]

So here are my questions:
-Is archery, with all the changes they've made to it, a worthwhile primary combat tactic?
-What class or combination of classes (and what order) should I be looking to do?
-Elf or Drow?
--If drow, should I still focus on bows or should I go with shurikens?
-Which feats should I be taking and in which order?
--Is Precise Shot worthwhile at low levels?
-For the levels where I cannot max all the skills from Rogue, which should I drop in order to boost Disable and Open?
-What would a good stat array look like?

Here's my opinion (for what ever it is worth):

- Primary? No, Co-Primary? Yes. While a good ranged character with the right bow/arrows can really help a party it's very challenging to just do Ranged. It makes for a good Larry to meele's Mo though
- Don't know as I haven't built a Ranger/Rogue combo. However I'd say make sure to take Rogue at lower level's possibly your 1st level.
- I'm a bit partial to Elf because (specially if you have a 32 pt build) because of the racial benefits of long bow/sword. Also you get to decided where to put your points in your initial build, instead of having extra Chr. All that said, I don't think either will make or break the build.
- I don't like Shruikens as a "main" weapon. Not worth it to me.
- Don't know.
- Yes, helps you in aggro control, and makes sure you get to take out the target you want.
- Open... you can try again, but once the trap is blown...
- Depends on your focus, Ranged, TWF, S & B, or ??? However one lesson I have learned... there is no such thing as TOO MUCH Con

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking starting rogue, and taking Spot, Listen, Search, Disable, Open, Tumble, Jump, Balance, Hide, Move Silently, and Bluff. However, the ranger levels give me 2 fewer skill points, and I want to keep Disable and Open maxed (and they are CC), so I am actually getting 4 fewer skill points. Thus, I was probably going to stop advancing Listen, and perhaps Bluff (since it seems more useful soloing than in a group and later on I'll be grouping more) and I don't know what else. Does this make sense? What skills should I stop advancing to keep DD and OL at max? Or should I stagger? Is tumble really worth improving much?

[Falco_Easts]

I made my drow Ranger 12/Rogue 2 with the aim of being able to handle most non-specilist traps and he works well without any extra feats donated to it. In fact, with the right gear I have yet to come across to many traps I haven't been able to handle. mind you, I have not run much since the Mod 6 changes.

-Is archery, with all the changes they've made to it, a worthwhile primary combat tactic?
Not unless you are heavilly loaded with gear. Para bows are great to help with crowd control but bow DPS is not really up there.
-What class or combination of classes (and what order) should I be looking to do?
Go with Rogue, Ranger, Ranger, Rogue, then the rest ranger. Take Rogue first for the extra skills, then 2 levels of Ranger for dual weild and bow str, the next Rogue for evasion then build up as Ranger.
-Elf or Drow?
If you have access to 32 point elf go with that otherwise drow.
--If drow, should I still focus on bows or should I go with shurikens?
Bows! I can do more damage with a rubber band and a folded bus ticket then I can with a shuriken
-Which feats should I be taking and in which order?
Would go with weapon finesse, toughness, and improved crit as soon as you can get to it.
--Is Precise Shot worthwhile at low levels?
I wouldn't worry about it. never seemed worth taking and swapping out later on when you get it for free but that is just me.
-For the levels where I cannot max all the skills from Rogue, which should I drop in order to boost Disable and Open?
Never found a need to drop to much as ranger has quite a few skill points. Make sure you start with a decent INTand you should be fine. Just make sure to make DD, OL, Search etc... each level. I never worried about bluff, tumble etc.. as i put them down as non essential
-What would a good stat array look like?
With my drow I think I started with
STR - 14
DEX - 18
CON - 12
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 10

[DragonKiller]

I wouldn't bother putting points into Listen, as Spot will do what listen will do for you and more. I would forgo Bluff all together. You're going to have skills that need points already.

My .02c for Skills (I do play a Ranger, and a Wizard/Rogue so while I don't play a Rogue/Ranger I at least understand it but not an expert on it), in order:

1) Search
2) Disable
3) Spot
4) Open Lock

Now those are a MUST have for a good rogue/ranger.

Depending on your play style I would then go:
1) Jump (Does a 50 jump mean you're an Airborne Ranger?)
2) Tumble (For when you hit the ground)
3) Hide (Shhh b- bery bery quite... I'm hun't kobolds)
4) Move Silently (see above)

you can trade the bottom 2 for the top 2 if you like to be sneaky, but it doesn't fit my play style for the most part.

Anything left over I would add to either Heal or Haggle. It's nice to get cheaper prices on stuff.

[Aesop]

Do not Neglect UMD!

This is a Ranger/Rogue 2wf build I threw together quickly

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Sabein 
Level 16 True Neutral Drow Female
(10 Rogue \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 128
Spell Points: 25 
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 18
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             14                    20
Dexterity            17                    22
Constitution         11                    11
Intelligence         15                    16
Wisdom               11                    11
Charisma             11                    11

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               7                    16
Bluff                 4                    19
Concentration         0                     0
Diplomacy             4                    19
Disable Device        7                    26
Haggle                2                    17
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  3                     6
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  6                    15
Listen                0                     2
Move Silently         3                     6
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                     5
Search                7                    30
Spot                  4                    23
Swim                  2                     5
Tumble                5                     8
Use Magic Device      4                    19

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility

Level 4 (Ranger)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider

Level 8 (Ranger)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

and a similar build for a ranged primary (this one costs a few feats and a couple of useless AP spent on Hide and MS 2) but You should be able to rogue with the best of them and Range quite well with the ability to punch holes in the bad guys when they get too close... this one is still in the very rough phase though

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
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Aeriel 
Level 16 Lawful Good Elf Female
(10 Rogue \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 160
Spell Points: 25 
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 19
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             14                    18
Dexterity            17                    24
Constitution         13                    14
Intelligence         15                    16
Wisdom                9                    10
Charisma              9                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 16
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 16
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 16
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               7                    17
Bluff                -1                     0
Concentration         1                     2
Diplomacy             3                    19
Disable Device        6                    26
Haggle                3                    19
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  3                    10
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  6                    14
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         3                    10
Open Lock             7                    30
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                2                     5
Search                6                    30
Spot                  3                    24
Swim                  4                     6
Tumble                5                    12
Use Magic Device      3                    19

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot

Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons

Level 4 (Ranger)

Level 5 (Ranger)

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot

Level 7 (Ranger)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot

Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Attack I
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Attack II
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Damage I
Enhancement: Elf Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Ranger Deepwood Sniper I
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Ranger Hide I
Enhancement: Ranger Hide II
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently I
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[WeiQuinn]

Here is my Ranger/Rogue/Fighter. He is a 32-point human based on the Scout class. While he has Ranger Tempest 1, he can still wield a bow effectively.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.80
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Syris LandWalker
Level 16 True Neutral Human Male
(1 Fighter \ 3 Rogue \ 12 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 144
Spell Points: 136 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 19
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity            17                    27
Constitution         10                    10
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom               12                    12
Charisma              9                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               7                    12
Bluff                -1                     0
Concentration         0                     0
Diplomacy            -1                     0
Disable Device        6                    24
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                  7                    26
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  6                    12
Listen                5                     5
Move Silently         7                    26
Open Lock             7                    26
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                2                     2
Search                6                    25
Spot                  5                    20
Swim                  4                     4
Tumble                5                    10
Use Magic Device      3                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I

Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I

Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I

Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Ranger Search II

Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Item Defense I

Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I

Level 10 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV

Level 11 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Search III

Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Ranger Item Defense II

Level 13 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Aberration
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma II

Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance II
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I

Level 16 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Search IV

[DragonKiller]

Do not Neglect UMD!

That's an interesting point. I have never done a build with too much UMD, my Wizy/Rogue has just enough to use CLW wands. I have built a new bard that will be all UMD/Haggle all the time, but I still have little experience with UMD.

At what point does UMD really become useful?

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks for the replies everyone! They have been very helpful.

[walsh]

my 11/3/2 rgr pally rog build is dependent on umd fully buffed with skill boost is 46 enough to help heal with scrolls, raise etc..
saves are insane from the pally not sure of exact # cause im at work but they all clear 30 except reflex which is over 40
i can find all the traps on elite except for cabal but disabling them on elite is another story. most skill points went to umd

my build is almost purly ranged but i do duel wield w/p and vorps. The new crafted bows definitly help with the lack of dps.
If you want to go ranged dnt forget you get all the twf for free so use them when needed and the darkwood sniper helps in getting crits.

gl with your build
ps ill try and post my build soon

[Zenako]

So here are my questions:
-Is archery, with all the changes they've made to it, a worthwhile primary combat tactic?
-What class or combination of classes (and what order) should I be looking to do?
-Elf or Drow?
--If drow, should I still focus on bows or should I go with shurikens?
-Which feats should I be taking and in which order?
--Is Precise Shot worthwhile at low levels?
-For the levels where I cannot max all the skills from Rogue, which should I drop in order to boost Disable and Open?
-What would a good stat array look like?
.

Archery can be a very effective tactic, but it will be gear dependant. If all you have is a nice +5 Flaming Longbow, then you will not be as effective in killing most mobs as a melee. If you have end game bows, you can be more effective than melees. I can track and keep shooting that teleporting demon with my banisher infinitely faster than any melee can run to chase them down. You can at high levels with many shot and improved precise shot clean out entire columns of mobs in short order, or paralyze many at once along the hallway or path, making it short work for the party to clean up the remains.

Since 1st level gets X4 skills, you get slightly more bang for the buck taking Rogue First (base 8 vs base 6 skill points).

I like Elf better, the enhancements fit bow archery better than the drow enhancements do.

Bows not shuriken. Too few good shuriken exist in the game to expect to ever get top end stuff.

Feat Order: My Ranger/Rogue has the following now. Weapon Finesse, Improved Crit: Ranged, Improved Crit:Pierce, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Luck of Heroes. I am thinking about Deepwoods sniper. PBShot and WF:Ranged are requirements for that. If I give up on that, I will likely change one of them to something else, not sure yet. Since you can change feats later on with Dragonshards and gold, it is not a permanent choice.

I used to have Precision (+4 to hit/ half base damage) if that is what you mean. It was very useful to toggle that on back when I was mid levels and using bows like Cursespewers and Destruction (-4AC) in quest like Tempest Spine. Nail all the Blackguards with those and the rest of the melees had a LOT easier time of things. I dropped that once I took the second Improved Crit feat:

I have kept DD, OL, Search, Spot maxed at all times. Jump is nice to keep high, but rangers get a first level Jump spell and once you are adding +30 from the spell, you start to approach overkill. Balance is good at times. I choose to ignore the CHA based skills since I had 10 CHA to start with. I was able (as others noted) to do the Cabal for One Trap on Normal, failed on elite. However that was THE benchmark trap in the game at the time. I have dropped points along the into Move Silent and Hide as well. I can with some good items now top 40 on both skills and sneak very effectively (important when scouting or running solo)

With some player skill, a good ranger/rogue (scout) can be very very effective, and they can play well in groups of any size, including solo. With the right favored enemies, you can kick serious butt on mobs that most tanks have issues with.

[Bragnor]

That's an interesting point. I have never done a build with too much UMD, my Wizy/Rogue has just enough to use CLW wands. I have built a new bard that will be all UMD/Haggle all the time, but I still have little experience with UMD.

At what point does UMD really become useful?

With good charisma and making sure you keep the skill maxxed: At level 8 my bard can use just about anything she can use at her level (most items seem to be UMD 20, with her self buffs and her skill she hits 20 easy at 8). Wands are trickier but with a good UMD item you can hit 27-30 UMD by level 10 without even having SF:UMD.

[sephiroth1084]

So this is what I've been working on, and my ideas following:

Drow (redo this to Elf when I get 32 pt. buy) Ranger 3/Rogue 2/Fighter 1
Str 15
Dex 18
Con 8
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8

So far, I have 3 levels of Ranger, 2 levels of Rogue, and 1 level of Fighter. I've picked up Point Blank Shot, Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run in addition to the class-granted feats from Ranger. I've kept Disable Device, Search and Spot maxed, and have Jump, Open Lock, Tumble and Balance just a couple points off of max. I run as the group's main Rogue, and throw around some ranged DPS, though I find that if there are too many enemies about I often have to turn to dual-wielding, which irks me a bit as I want to be doing as much ranged combat as I can, since that's where my specialization lies. I've taken the Dex boosting enhancements, faster sneaking, sneak attack training (though I'm often sniping from a distance since I'm a little squishy and can't deal with aggro well), boosts to Disable Device, Search and Spot, the faster attacking, faster running, and skills action boosts (though I have yet to use the last--making DD and Open Lock checks on Gwylan's on normal on a roll of 3, and have only critically failed one trap in 6 levels). I tend to sneak around, scouting, and trying to get in sneak attacks, though I sometimes regret doing so, due to the aggro I pull. I also go sniping to pull enemies, or stop them from getting close, and sometimes try to pick off casters, but other enemies often get in the way.

I'm thinking about taking Fighter again at level 7 to pick up Manyshot. I want to continue being THE Rogue, but also want to focus on bow combat, so here are some questions:
-Is doing both a viable option? That is, can I continue to be an effective trapsmith and archer?
-Should I get up to level 6 ranger before taking any more levels of fighter?
-Should I take any more levels of fighter?
-Would taking fighter at 7 for manyshot, then going ranger for 6 levels and swapping out the earlier manyshot be a good strategy?
-Is Deepwood Sniper worthwhile?
-If DWS is worth the investiture of levels of ranger and enhancements, what enhancements should I fill in around the requirements?
-If it is not, which enhancements should I be looking for?
-Would it be more worthwhile to take mostly rogue levels from here on, mostly ranger levels, mostly fighter levels (sacrificing the skill side of things) or mixing kinda evenly? If the last, in what mix and at what levels would everyone recommend? Thinking 4 levels of fighter eventually for the extra 2 feats and Weapon Spec. looks good, but do those benefits outweigh whatever benefits I'd get from levels in ranger or rogue? Should I be just dropping a level of rogue in every 3-4 levels or so to get skills back up and slowly advance sneak attack or should there be more? Less?
-What feats should I be looking to pick up and when? I know Imp. Crit., Weapon Focus (ranged? piercing?do they stack for bows or just take one?), Precise Shot...thinking about Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus:slashing perhaps, but that'd require more fighter levels definitely.

Secondarily, what gear should I be looking for? Right now my main bow is a +1 frost composite of pure good, and I've got a +1 flaming, a +1 ghost touch of pure good, and a couple of +1 +element meelee weapons (acid or cold so far, and a couple of bane weapons); +2 mithral chainshirt (but I'll have too high a Dex for that soon); House D +3 arrows (gets very expensive!); +5 Disable Device ring, +3 Spot trinket, +3 Search goggles, +2 resistance cloak (saves still suck, and even my Reflex saves aren't landing often enough...though I keep rolling terribly, just like in PnP).

[sephiroth1084]

Oh, and what's the earliest reasonable point I'd be able to get the second tier of House Denieth favor? Further on that query, is relying on +3 arrows and focusing on finding a bow with 2 abilities better than trying to find a higher +x item? That is, would I be better suited getting something like a +2/+3/+4/+5 flaming bow, than say a +1 icy burst bow of pure good, and relying on the Denieth arrows for an additional +2 to hit? I realize that, in the long run, getting a bow with a higher base enhancement value with save me money, but the ones with 2 good abilities are out of reach right now.

Also, what are the best enhancements to have on a bow (not counting crafting, because I don't know how that works yet)?