The Thing (A build by request)

[sigtrent]

This build is from Sigtrent's build request thread

Build Name: The Thing
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: Eric Ebo
Last Updated: 04/29/2010

Key Words [Cleric, Rogue, Traps, TWF, Intimidate]

Objectives
This was a build for a duo team. One team member was a sorceress and the other team member was everything else. They wanted to have a full dungeon experience with the two characters so we needed traps, healing, and combat duties.

Design
The easy thing to do would be two WF casters, one sorcerer and a rogue wizard, both with some melee abilities. But for whatever reason I went with a human sorcerer and a this... a strange kind of fighting cleric rogue. Its the human sorcerer that kind of dictated the build parameters. It had to heal fleshes, it had to do traps, it had to fight, and in my mind it had to have some tank like qualities. I also wanted it to augment the sorcerer however possible. Cleric handles the healing and the boosting of the caster (via DV) and it even can help the rogue out. The defense and offense part called for fighter or paladin. With feats tight fighter looked like the better option. I went through all kinds of permutations to get the thing to gell and finally something oozed out of the character builder.

The cleric side is pure healing/buffing, so wisdom is only high enough to qualify for casting. Likewise the rogue end is purely for disarm, search, and evasion. Fighter picks up the slack in combat providing proficiencies, TWF offense, primarily using effect weapons (vorpols, paralyzers, banishers etc...) but also enough straight damage to have some impact and later in the build it adds heavy shield blocking abilities and some better AC options. It also supports the intimidate skill nicely.

Dex is the primary combat stat. This was done to enable TWF, to provide a driver for AC, enable good evasion, boost lock picking, and of course in the end to drive to-hit bonuses. It just seemed it was the stat giving me the most mileage so why not drive hard on it.

Quicken is used to avoid concentration checks so its pretty much always on when in combat, especially when playing mini tank.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Human Male
(7 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 11 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 230
Spell Points: 565 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             12                    16
Dexterity            15                    24
Constitution         12                    14
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom               14                    16
Charisma             12                    16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    12
Bluff                 1                     3
Concentration         3                     6
Diplomacy             1                     3
Disable Device        6                    27
Haggle                5                     7
Heal                  2                     3
Hide                  2                     7
Intimidate            5                    31
Jump                  5                     8
Listen                2                     3
Move Silently         2                     7
Open Lock             6                    19
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     3
Search                6                    27
Spot                  6                     7
Swim                  1                     3
Tumble                6                    11
Use Magic Device      5                     7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality III
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I

Play
Your job is to defend and aid your caster friend. Fight down the monsters that would wast her spell points. Intimidate the buggers off her and into the fire walls. Heal her and giver her mana. Disable the nasty traps that endanger her. Open chests and locked doors for her. Protect her from status effects and instant death. Basically do all the dirty work so she can blast things into tiny pieces.

While you have some tank skills you are not a true tank, more tank-light. One think intimidate is good for is training monsters around. You don't have to just stand there and take the poundings, especially if you are duoing with a caster. In a larger group there is likely a stronger tank. Another issue to watch for is mana, you really have a pretty shallow pool. Good enough if you conserve it well but its not really raid quality or quantity healing. You do make a strong back up healer and can support a primary healer well with DVs. Its also a great character for odd jobs in raids, someone who can go off alone and is likely to come back after doing whatever it was that needed doing while the main fight was going on.

Variations
Its such an odd build, there is a lot you could change but each change demands another change and it becomes hard to make it all work out. I'd say anyone interested in a challenge should try to make a tank rogue healer. Its a very challenging combo to assemble.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I was expecting an orange Warforged Barbarian with a few points in Charisma.

[sigtrent]

I was expecting an orange Warforged Barbarian with a few points in Charisma.

and mithral body to get that stone skin look... that would be cool! Perhaps when monks come out...

I called it Thing for lack of a better description...

A two weapon fighting finesse cleric rogue semi-tank... just doesn't quite do it justice.

[EinarMal]

My only comments are missing improved critical is kind of a bummer, it really limits your DPS, or like you listed you are stuck using the best keen weapon you can find. Given that there is a sorc in the group do you really need maximize?

I am also not fond of dex builds personally, where you are using strength as a dump stat and not taking power attack. You have high enough to hit to use power attack almost all the time and it would open up a lot of opportunities. I might drop Wis to 12 and Cha to 12 and put those 3 points into strength. With a +1 tome that would give you 14 and you can pick up power attack, that is a solid +7 to damage per swing, you can't always use effects weapons especially at end battles etc...

The other thing is extend, if you are going to fight with divine power/favor up a lot of the time that is a pretty big feat.

Feats:
1-Two Weapon Fighting
1-(HB) Weapon Finesse
3-Extend
6-Power Attack
9-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12-IC Piercing
15-Greater Two Weapon Fighting

[MysticRhythms]

Would a Rogue3/Bard11(Spellsinger) fit the bill a little more? I think you'd have an easier time maximizing the Rogue skills and should be able to UMD any healing you would need beyond th Bard's spells. I think you'd be able to provide more offense this way, though you'd lose out on things like Blade Barrier.

[Impaqt]

I would take Improved Critical over Greater 2WF in a heartbeat.

Whats Divine Might?

I dont see where your getting some of those Numbers.. I really dislike the format you present on these builds.... If anotehr builder cant figure out your numbers, how is someone looking into a build supposed to figure out how to hit th enumbers your claiming?

[brshelton]

I would take Improved Critical over Greater 2WF in a heartbeat.

Whats Divine Might?

I dont see where your getting some of those Numbers.. I really dislike the format you present on these builds.... If anotehr builder cant figure out your numbers, how is someone looking into a build supposed to figure out how to hit th enumbers your claiming?

i see no issues besides divine might he might mean divine power

[MysticRhythms]

Actually, the format is a lot esier for me to read than the gobs and gobs of wasted space the character builder uses up

[sigtrent]

Would a Rogue3/Bard11(Spellsinger) fit the bill a little more? I think you'd have an easier time maximizing the Rogue skills and should be able to UMD any healing you would need beyond th Bard's spells. I think you'd be able to provide more offense this way, though you'd lose out on things like Blade Barrier.

One of the big things that led me to cleric were certain defensive buffs: Death Ward, Spell Resistance, and Freedom of Movement. My wife has a sorcerer and when she solo's these are the buffs she most wishes she could have, Death Ward especialy. Scrolls are one thing but sometimes they are just too slow when reacting to debuffs and the like. I though that, along with having blade barrier and the DV action etc really called for clerc. And of course there are the Heal spells and raise dead. Again the bard can scroll those, but scrolling and casting are worlds apart.

You could make a much more full featured rogue with bard though. I don't think bard would actualy give more offense in that case. The buffing song wouldn't quite out pace DF + DP on a spellsinger and the sorcerer character has little use for the buffs. I think if I wasn't going for the "we can duo everything" and was making a healing rogue, the bard route would be better overall as a full party member.

[sigtrent]

My only comments are missing improved critical is kind of a bummer, it really limits your DPS, or like you listed you are stuck using the best keen weapon you can find. Given that there is a sorc in the group do you really need maximize?

Thanks for the comments. Interesting how you zoomed in on the combat side of it. I actualy started trying to run strength, but the AC/Open Locks and overall combat abbility didn't look so good to me. That was with lowish dex. What you put together has more str over secondaries.. that isn't a lot of extra damage for the sacrifice of the other features...

The re-arange of feats looks decent though. Maximize is more a feature than a nessesity. It does help with healing. My own cleric has MAx and Empower and in some cases I find Max heals (especialy area heals) quite usefull for tough fights.

[sigtrent]

Thanks much for taking a look Impaqt!

I would take Improved Critical over Greater 2WF in a heartbeat.

Makes sense. I have a bard without IC and he uses keen weapons a lot. It works fine so long as you have the keen weapons, but I think IC for GTWF is a very reasonable choice.

Whats Divine Might?

Divine Power, I just call it Divine Might (a pnp spell one level higher and is similar) so I get them mixed up in my brain a lot.

I dont see where your getting some of those Numbers.. I really dislike the format you present on these builds.... If anotehr builder cant figure out your numbers, how is someone looking into a build supposed to figure out how to hit th enumbers your claiming?

Well, different preferences partly... i don't mean it as a critique but I don't much like the one you use as it emphisizes the final numbers over the build set up. I like to see the raw build set up first and then see the compiled values as I'm more intersted in the build choices than the gear and buffs used.

None the less I'm always trying to improve the format so I'd love any specific suggestions about what you would change.

As to numbers, keep in mind this is a level 16 build so saves HP and SP are a big inflated compared to a 14 and I have 8 more AP I'm allocating.

[MysticRhythms]

You could make a much more full featured rogue with bard though. I don't think bard would actualy give more offense in that case. The buffing song wouldn't quite out pace DF + DP on a spellsinger and the sorcerer character has little use for the buffs. I think if I wasn't going for the "we can duo everything" and was making a healing rogue, the bard route would be better overall as a full party member.

The DF + DP is giving you +6 to hit and +3 to damage. A spellsinger with Inspire Greatness, and Inspired Attack II/Inspried DamageIII could get +6 to hit and +5 to damage without using mana and the buffs would last longer though you'd be behind by 1 BaB because of the lack of Divine Power coverage. the spellsinger could also add 1 more with Focusing Chant and in a pinch, use a stack of Divine Might scrolls.

Actually, a better team wouild be a Paladin2/Cleric12 and the Spellsinger trapfinder above, but you only have room for 1 of them.

I'd probably have pushed the rogue skills onto the arcanist (making it a Wizard) and then gone with the Paladin/Cleric above.

the Wizard has more synergy with a Rogue because of Intelligence being important to both. You can use Knock in lieu of Open Locks for a lot of content, too.

It's an interesting exercise.

[Impaqt]

Divine Power would actually be a +4 Boost then. Raises BAB to Level.

54 Disable is barely adequet for Current level cap WHo knows what we'll see in Mod 6. and thats 54 with a Boost..... What are you going to do in a Dungeon like Maze of Madness?

Its just the skills that bother me... 19/54...... I like to see the actual breakdown.

[sigtrent]

The DF + DP is giving you +6 to hit and +3 to damage. A spellsinger with Inspire Greatness, and Inspired Attack II/Inspried DamageIII could get +6 to hit and +5 to damage without using mana and the buffs would last longer though you'd be behind by 1 BaB because of the lack of Divine Power coverage. the spellsinger could also add 1 more with Focusing Chant and in a pinch, use a stack of Divine Might scrolls..

Well argued, although I got DP wrong and its +4 for this build. But none the less you make a good combat argument for the bard.

Actually, a better team wouild be a Paladin2/Cleric12 and the Spellsinger trapfinder above, but you only have room for 1 of them.

I disagree with that. Nothing can stand up to the raw power of a pure sorcerer, especialy when it comes to solo play. They are absolutely devistating and have the mana to spam maximized firewalls and heightened PK/FOD like there is no tommorow. I know clerics can solo decently wtih Blade Barrier and Destruction but they are slower casters wtih less mana and only the two strong offensive spells to work with compared to a slew of strong spells with the sorc.

I'd probably have pushed the rogue skills onto the arcanist (making it a Wizard) and then gone with the Paladin/Cleric above..

Again you loose out on the powerhouse character. A rogue wizard is a pale shadow of a pure sorcerer in terms of simply dominating combat encounters.

the Wizard has more synergy with a Rogue because of Intelligence being important to both. You can use Knock in lieu of Open Locks for a lot of content, too.

I certainly can't argue wtih that. The requester mentioned going with too rogue/arcane Warforged originaly. Not a bad way to go but I'm sold on the pure sorcerer as being the pinacle of solo characters.

[MysticRhythms]

Well argued, although I got DP wrong and its +4 for this build. But none the less you make a good combat argument for the bard.

I also forgot that you went to level 16, in which case you can add +2 to hit and +1 to damage to the spellsinger because of Bard 14 and Inspired Attack III while going Rogue2/Spellsinger14. I'd hate clicking on DP scrolls all the time though.

I disagree with that. Nothing can stand up to the raw power of a pure sorcerer, especialy when it comes to solo play.

No no - I meant a solid team of three would be your sorcerer and the Paladin2/Cleric14 and the Rogue2/Spellsinger14. There's no way I'd drop the arcanist from the group.

Again you loose out on the powerhouse character. A rogue wizard is a pale shadow of a pure sorcerer in terms of simply dominating combat encounters.

Probably right. I like the versatility the Wizard offers with spell swapping.

I certainly can't argue wtih that. The requester mentioned going with too rogue/arcane Warforged originaly. Not a bad way to go but I'm sold on the pure sorcerer as being the pinacle of solo characters.

Heck, two warforged characters - a sorcerer and a wizard/rogue could bring enough healing and mana to not have to worry about much.

[sigtrent]

Divine Power would actually be a +4 Boost then. Raises BAB to Level. .

Ya, noticed that when checking where I used Divine Might and updated it, thanks!

54 Disable is barely adequet for Current level cap WHo knows what we'll see in Mod 6. and thats 54 with a Boost..... What are you going to do in a Dungeon like Maze of Madness?.

True, 56 is the no-blow for level 14 content... perhaps some more disable is called for somewhere... Still, if you are willing to take a small chance its not too far short. I'm not sure I'd call it barely adequete. I've done Maze with less than that on elite and didn't blow any traps. As for how to do it wiht boost... use the shrine? I don't think there are more than 10 traps in there. My rogue always boosts on traps unless I'm slumming a dungeon and I can't recall ever running out unless I forgot to rest before the quest and start with only 1 use or the like.

Its just the skills that bother me... 19/54...... I like to see the actual breakdown.

I'll break em down, thanks!

[brshelton]

IMO failing on a 3 instead of a 1 is fine. Swap for Head of Good Fortune or Staff of Arcane Power or Rabbit Gloves and your set. Get lucky with a +15 item or just get a +15 in Mod6 and your set. Theres plenty of pure rogues with less than what this build has especially considering the self/partner buffing on.

[Impaqt]

1 Is not an auto Fail on a Trap.

We're not talking about failing on just a 1-3 56 IS A no BLOW mark.... DC's are documented to 61

Theres 16 Traps in Maze of madness. ANd with all the clamoring people have been making about making rogues more useful, I would suspect we'll see more quests with Lots of traps.

I wouldnt consider a rogues skills "Exceptional" until they are auto Succeed.

[sigtrent]

Theres 16 Traps in Maze of madness. ANd with all the clamoring people have been making about making rogues more useful, I would suspect we'll see more quests with Lots of traps.

I had no idea... thanks! To be honest I usualy do about 8-10 of them or often none of them as they are pretty easy to just avoid. I also tend to like skipping over the maze walls after the gates and just avoiding from bridge to end boss with a bit of ballance and jump work. Not that any of that diminishes your point. This guy could have a tough time in MOM elite if the traps are in the upper DC scale. (I'm not really sure what thier DC is, never blown one but also havn't done it as a roge more than a few times)

I wouldnt consider a rogues skills "Exceptional" until they are auto Succeed.

Agreed. Actualy I'd even go so far as to say unless you can do Cabal elite, you arn't at the top of the trapping game. Not that I'd actualy make a character to do that, but for comparison its the high water mark.

I was only going for "adiquate" with this one.

[Impaqt]

Agreed. Actualy I'd even go so far as to say unless you can do Cabal elite, you arn't at the top of the trapping game. Not that I'd actualy make a character to do that, but for comparison its the high water mark.

I was only going for "adiquate" with this one.

Commentary
So.. We have good if not amazing rogue skills, albeit missing spot,

Adequet≠ amazing

How will they "Know where all the traps are" in the new content?

I'd consider Quickening the cleric and putting those skill points into spot as well.