TS Runs - Skill Gap - I miss Hellfire

[Sambvca]

/rant on

I have had the 3 worst TS runs over the past 2 days. 2+hrs each. (This excludes Scully's run on 12/20) Backtracking to pickup people can't make the lava run, who drown, who can't stay with the group and get lost. People who mess with the puzzle, let the rust monster out, kill fire 4 times when he's facinated.

Is there that big of a gap in skill between capped players and low-mid levels? If I pug one of my 14's, everyone knows what they're doing/ suposed to be doing, and things run smoothly. I've pug'd Horseman up to 9, and there seems to be a lack player talentin the mid-lower level player base. This isn't a blaket statement - roughly 40% of the lower population knows what's up. Another 40% of you I'd give a B- to C. I can live with the middle of the pack and try to help you. It's in the other 20 % that get the F grade. Wow, how have you made it to level 7? You're the ones who do the annoying stuff (see above). Grrrr.

/rant off

On a side note, is anyone that used to be in Hellfire still on. We used to 3 man TS in 15 minutes. Good times.

[Impaqt]

Surprise! The Recent promotion has actually gotten us quite a few brand new players......

Tempest spine is a very difficult quest at first. No map for the vast majority of it, The first time you have to kill 2 things at once to progress, Deep Lava, etc etc etc.

Pugging tempest spine at low levels means you need a Solid leader. One that will take the time to educate folks, make sure people dont get lost, and have the patience to follow through when things dont go smooth.

[Ringos]

I think that most of us used to be in the 'lower skill' catagory at one point. Once we gain knowledge and skill we tend to forget what it's like to be without. Taking time to help people out ensures that people stick around and, who knows, the people you take time for may be the same people you are having a blast running with a few months down the road.

All that said, I've capped a toon and I STILL don't know my way around many quests. I've run TS about 5 times total with all my guys, so if I was pressed, it would take me abut 17 hours to get through it. I know people with a few capped toons that don't even know as much about the game as I do. How did they get capped? I imagine that they are fun to run with, hold their own and don't do all the stupid things that pss people off. The newer folks that adapt and learn a bit will stay around. Most that don't will probably soon find it hard to find groups and will fade away.

As a side notes:
I think it's great that DoctorWhoFan holds hands during TS runs. Newer folks appreciate it and the people that have been around a while know how she rolls, so there should be no complaints if they group with her.

As far as the grading stuff, I basically have 3 catagories: Friends List, Folks I'll Run With and DNG. After a year, I think the DNG list probably has about 6 people on it....FAR eclipsed by the Friends List!

[Dorthin_Othortin]

while i dont agree that TS is a "hard" quest, i would say that for first timers it can be confusing at best

i hate to say this, and really, no offense intended but, a great/smooth raid starts with the raid leader(s)

if you assume anything on any pug raid anyone can quickly come to the conclusion that the raid party is a bunch of idiots!

for instance with TS, if you assume ppl who have never done the quest know how to get from any point A to any point B in the quest you are seriously setting yourself up for a major headache

if you assume that any lvl 9 cleric has 4-5 rez scrolls on a mid/low lvl run you are setting yourself up for a major headache. This applies to any scroll, potion, wand or spell from any class.

bottom line on pug grps is this: expect everyone on the raid to know absolutely NOTHING about the quest layout, encounters, spells to use, tried and true strats or even how to play the character they have built

i would fully expect any lvl 7-10 TS run raid leader to spend a min. of 10-13mins briefly explaining the quest before anyone takes a step and then i would fully expect a continuous speech throughout the quest about every little aspect

you ever heard the comment "give a boy a rope and he wants to be a cowboy"?

give a noob player room to question on a pug raid and they will do everything they possible can to "ruin" your raid. they will pull levers that they dont know what the results are, they will loot chests with rooms full of mobs while dying, they will run into lava pits to the point that a rez is nearly impossible, they will fall into "trap" areas from which there is no return, they will run out of sp within the first 2 battles, they will try their best to bounce agro all over the map, they will ask you and others for the best loot pulls, they will blame everyone except themselves for their own stupid actions, they will have the weirdest builds known to the game and boost about how they are superior, they will use great axes to kill oozes, they will...................................

YOU GET THE POINT!

everything, and i mean E V E R Y T H I N G must be spelled out, almost in capital letters and said through voice on a pug raid such as TS when dealing with players that have never run the quest. same with reaver, titan, dragon and everyday grinding quests. If you dont, you will be right back here after your next pug explaining to us how you had the worst experience ever

just some thoughts from one weekly pug raid leader to another pug raid leader

Join Jmar's Famous "your loot is your loot" booty bam bust reaver raids sometimes and listen to my pug "speech"!!!

[Winded]

i hate to say this, and really, no offense intended but, a great/smooth raid starts with the raid leader(s)

/signed

Stop assuming everyone is as uber and experienced as you and provide some leadership, always.

I ve noticed an up swing in new players, we have a choice. Steam roll em or help em. If we want the game to survive , we better accept that there will be larger skill ranges than what you might be acccustom to.

[Dorthin_Othortin]

and, speaking of missing the "good ol days" and TS

gosh i sure do miss the 4 min "wounding" TS runs....................

i miss running back to the quest and zoning in just in time to get the xp for quest completion cause 2-3 ppl were just that fast!

/dreams back.......went form lvl 7 to almost 9 in one night in TS on my cleric

ah, the golden days!

[Sambvca]

I ve noticed an up swing in new players, we have a choice. Steam roll em or help em. If we want the game to survive , we better accept that there will be larger skill ranges than what you might be acccustom to.

Fair enough. I'm more worried about how Lvl 7's don't have an UA item, can't stay with the party, tell you they're lost 5 minutes after the fact, ect. These are things you should learn by lvl 3.

Side note on good times - Therenal South 3, 2 min loot runs.

[Brai]

TS is a hard quest. that is why it was run for so many timed speed runs back in the day. At one point my WIZ Bruw was ransacked on xp and loot from all the chests. I made it a mission to run it everyday back when that was one of the only places to get tomes. I have run it a few times lately as well and noticed that the leaders of the group were usually people who ran it once or twice on their capped toons and not much after. I also noticed a lot of people doing the old ways of fire and ice and people not knowing how to go around the intel rune if you get thrown off by Sorjac. All around there is a large gap between the veteran players and newer ones. If people want to have someone show them the ropes I will gladly offer my services, free of charge even. Send me a PM, I have 2 accounts with all levels of chars. so like I said send me a PM, and I'll give you a list of toons to look for. I've been mostly soloing because I never know what I'm getting into with a PUG, but if I know it is a learning experience for group members I will plan accordingly!

[Seylene]

I agree that it doesn't take much to just survey your group to see who knows what they're doing and who does not. You can always get experienced ppl to help keep the new ppl together (like sheep herders LOL ). That will save you a world of pain and agony and having to go back to find ppl. BUT in addition to this, NEW PPL should be up front about saying they do not know the quest well and would need a little extra guidance to help keep up. I say it's important for both sides to speak up if you're pugging with a large group.

[aldan]

There has been a large influx of players coming in that seem to be coming from games that are solo based. Ran TS last night and our sorc decided he would pull ice before we even got setup, he went halfway in and pulled the giants, no ice, fire came up and would you know we had leave fire up, while we pulled ice again. The lack of player coordination does seem to be amplified lately. I have had groups with unexperienced players and never had a problem, its when the unexp players dont listen to the lead and lonewolf and get the group into trouble.

Experience really shouldnt matter. if you have a solid leader and everyone does their roll in the battle, then everything should go ok for the most part.

I love this game and I do help the lesser experienced ones if they are open to it.

[aldan]

/signed

Stop assuming everyone is as uber and experienced as you and provide some leadership, always.

I ve noticed an up swing in new players, we have a choice. Steam roll em or help em. If we want the game to survive , we better accept that there will be larger skill ranges than what you might be acccustom to.

Not always true, a leader is only as good as his group. Take football for example, you can have a Tom Brady, but without the teammates to support him, its a losing proposition. I do agree that a necessary ingredient is a qualified leader but that will not lead to sucess if the team will not support his efforts.

[Zenako]

Despite all the nay sayers, since EXP is so easy to get now, it is very easy to get a character up a lot of levels with only minimal play experience, and even, facing mainly the same type of foes and challenges every time. Tempest Spine is one of the first places people might get to where lots of new mobs appear. Maruts, Beholders, Blackguards, etc. Powerful MOb Spellcasters, etc. Play style must adapt. If you are used to just killing dumb giants in SC all the time, this can be a shock.

Back when I was first running TS, used to get lost on occasion and fall behind. Some of that was actually me taking time to look around and see the dungeon we were in, while the veterans were zerging ahead to the next chest/fight. (Since I was often on my Cleric back then, they did tend to wait some or come back and find me. ) After one run was finished, I just then spent the next hour back in the upper halls exploring and mapping. Figuring out that the water portion was not all that hard. Learning where all the rooms were. I made a map. I as the player gained a lot of experience in that hour. My character got none, BUT, was then able to quite freely move about the map, know the layout, anticipate the mobs, etc.

There were a number of runs where my Paladin, was being very Paladin like and helping any and everyone who needed help. I went back out and found the dying souls in the lava and brought them into the quest. I went out and found the lost soulstone (at that point) of the toon who turned the wrong way trying to help fighting ICE. It can get pretty nasty back there if you wake everything up...sigh. Mephits and Flensers Anonymous. We did finish the quest, but it was lot longer than a veteran group would have taken. HOWEVER, the only way to become a veteran is to do the quest, to learn it and to learn what you should not do as well. NOONE was brought into this game with perfect knowledge. Everyone had to learn sometime. Its probably time to "pay it back" as that movie put it. With a guild run and veteran players...no mercy. With a mixed group/pug and new people, the hat of kindness and teaching appears. On a quest I know well, I will ask the other players, if they seem new, how much help they want to get. For example: A) There will be a trap box on the second pillar on the left for the blade trap, please find and disarm to save healing, or B) This passage looks like a good place to put a trap or ambush, scouts be on the alert. (A) is handholding, but teaching them the quest, (B) is pointing out when it is a good time to use those scout skills and letting the scout figure things out. Option (C), yup there is a trap in this hall, but we can just ignore it and go the other way instead since the halls connect...unless we want conquest, ransack and being clever bonuses. With some players with limited time, I often suggest we go for everything. Helps to maximize experience from that quest. Exposes them to the entire quest, not just the beeline to the end (WW for example). And lets them use more of thier skills and feel useful.

Given the many higher level quests available, TSE runs are no where near as frequent as they used to be, BUT some of my mid levels are getting to the point where they are ready to crack those doors.

[dawnyel]

I am fairly new and been trying to learn the quests better. I am one of those folks with a quicky capped toon. I can get lost and fall with the best of them. I find myself repeating things I been told and another player tells me it is wrong. Oh well I too hope to be able to one day to know what is the right way to do something or right way to build my character. Alot times I am just trying to not get lost, fall off a ledge and trying to keep up to remeber where I have just been. For now I ask question about things and probably drive folks crazy. I like to talk sorry. I am sure I am probabaly on some folks do not play list. I have learn to ask before pulling and opening and doing things. It does take time. Sometimes I get a little crazy thinking, I remember this quest. I know where I am going and boom dead or lost or fallen< but it is part of the learning process. Oh do not do that again.

I have some mid and lower lvl toons that I am playing and folks just do not understand why I do not care about xp or do not level when I can. It is just me trying to learn not just run through the stuff as quick as I can.

There are some great teachers out there. I have met alot and generous folks always trying to help and support new folks. I want to say thank you all for you help and paitience. I have been in their groups, but one time through with them does not make me an experience ldr. I strive to be like them. I am not sure I will be able to. Heck I still can not lead folks comfortably through water works. I have tried and failed (fell of the ledge as a suiqshee when freeing arlos) thank goodness for a quite little fighter or babarian darwf that took up the lead. Thank you again.

I have also learned that one time through a quest with someone does not mean that is how the person is. They just may be having a bad day.

[STROBE]

Fair enough. I'm more worried about how Lvl 7's don't have an UA item, can't stay with the party, tell you they're lost 5 minutes after the fact, ect. These are things you should learn by lvl 3.

I hope you're just exagerating with the level 3 comment. If not, they you have seriously forgotten what its like for a new player at the beginning of this game. I have not. At level 3, people have not even figured out all the basic UI controls.

In regards to your original post, Welcome to the State of the Player Base! I feel you were quite generous in your grading. That's why i've moved on. I could take the new players, and even enjoyed grouping with them. Its the experienced players (like me, since March 6 2006) that I got enough of.

Its the experienced players I see causing their own frustration, over and over again. Top five ways to make yourself unhappy:

(Note that hereafter, the use of the words you and yourself are rhetorical, and do not refer specifically to Sambvca.)

5. Don't stop not even 1 second to catch everyone in your haste. Just cast it on the run, and leave some behind. Then get all huffy and put out when the party gets scattered and starts dieing piece-meal

4. Dont say anthing; don't type anything. Expect everyone to think just like you do. Or read your mind over the internet. Then get all angry and emo when the party partially wipes.

3. When someone asks for help, don't give it. Just keep going hell for leather, and then wonder why there's only about half the party at the end before the big battle, and they are not buffed right.

2. Please by all means, 3 or 4 tanks run off to complete the quest objectives in the shortest possible time, leaving the squishies behind, and then take a toke or two, while waiting for the cleric to catch up to your now 10 hit points left barbarians. Be sure to get all huffy while half of the squishies die and spend 20 minutes fighting thru the mobs you left behind.

1. Just keep thinking, I don't need nobody, every man for himself, I can two man this on elite with my mom's lvl two character in 11 seconds.

PS: Oh, I almost forgot - please assume that everyone has a 40+ jump like your chatracter, then be shocked, I say shocked, when a bunch of people miss the jump and can't find their way back. Or find themselves dieing. Gotta love that Giant Hold!

PPS: ATTENTION, ATTENTION!. PUGS are not filled with your elite, uber twinked, can do no wrong guildees, some of whom game for a living, apparently. And shock of shocks, puggles are not going to function like them.

[Impaqt]

I stand by my statement that TS is a difficult quest.....

Just because the "Uber" are used to it and have every nook and cranny memorized so wel they could run it with blindness doesnt make it "Easy"

Its WAY easy to get lost inthe first 5 minutes if you dont make an attempt to keep the party together.. The Haste thing is a great example... Many TS Experst throw it down and go zerg. WHile the newbie is stil taking in the view, or may stil be loading in even. You zip around that corner with a fork.... WIth NO Map... and have no idea which way peole went.

My first character didnt have FF and A Items until l9 or so if I remeber correctly. First tempest spine run I did I had to shrine and pick up the waterbreathing spell.(and NOT just for me)

If you wanna Zerg Tempest Spine, by al means, start a group and Announce that its a Zerg. No one will be shown anything. You can then leave the newbies in the dust(If they do join) and satifsy your uberness.

Too many people lose site of what your first characters experience was once they have a few capped toons and a constant flow of twink items being handed down.

[MysticRhythms]

The amount of skill lacking in newer players is directly proportional to the lack of patience of skilled players.

The best leader on Tempest Spine (or any other raid, for that matter) is the one who can train a first-timer to obtain all of the objectives of the quest after only a handful of runs.

A good leader doesn't just give orders. They should be able to create a protege who can run the quest similarly. A goodleader most certainly does not complete the quest himself.

If you can't, then you lack communication skills. You may be an incredible player, but a poor leader.

Leading a PUG group is one of the most difficult communication challenges in this game.

that said, one of the posters above hit the nail on the head. New players of this game are so hyped on leveling up as fast as possible that they never learn the strengths and weaknesses of their characters. They stay "lost" up through level 14 and are just happy to click on the contents of a chest regardless of who really did the workload in a quest to get them there. There is too much emphasis on running WW->STK->Tangleroot->Delera's->Stormcleave->Co6 just to hurry up and level. Along the way, you HOPE those players learn the UI ... and what DR means and that some monsters may have different kinds of it and that saving throws and energy resistances matter and a whole slew of other nuances.

The lack of a map in Tempest Spine coupled with the fact that you always seem to have 2-3 guys who know thequest really well and 5-9 who really don't is what creates this gap.

The problem lies more with those 2-3 folks though. Sure the newbies lack skill, but if those 2-3 had a modicum of patience and could just slow down the raid and teach the other folks, they'd all be experts after just a few runs together.

[MysticRhythms]

For those really experienced with the raid who have the patience, try this:

Put up an LFM for Tempest Spine that says "Slowest TS run ever. Newbies welcome and encouraged."

Watch how fast it fills up and then play tour guide. Take your time. Yes you know the quest inside and out and people will probably make mistakes and die.

At the end of the quest, check to see how many of those newbies thanked you or welcomed the patience. It will be more rewarding to you than a 15-minute run ever could be. I promise.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Fire and Ice can be nasty.
The end fight can be bad too....especially if a bunch of people get blown off.
The map is horible and inescusable.....there is the real problem with this quest. (unless you think zergers are the problem)

How can a new or almost new TS player possible figure out where everyone ran off to in this quest?
The only real problems I have seen here have mostly been due to people getting lost.
Second problem is that fire and ice can be very difficult at times.....not even because of bad players....just bad luck really.

I am amazed at the lack of overall skill of many newplayers though..... I thought that by lvl 10+ you would be compitant about basic tactics in this game.....but I've seen a lot of players lately that seem really really new.

I have noticed that in TS we often see one player without UA.... That really surprises me.
Underwater Action is the first of the must haves for my toons.
Feather Fall is second
Poison immunity is third. (I am constantly amazed at how effective enemy cloudkills are, even on lvl 14s......my toons dance in them)
Every toon capable of using them should have wands of remove disease, remove blindness and remove curse.....probably lesser restore as well......this includes Rogues and Sors with a decent UMD.

But going along with the TS complaints are that in any quest, you should never leave the rest of the party behind.
I understand it in TS with its useless map......but I am amazed at how many lvl 14 seem oblivious to where the other blue dots are on the map.....I swear I must be the only person who even has a map on my screen....cause the rest of you have no clue where anyone is.

Zerging is ok (I don't always like it, but it's not truly bad by itself, and for Barbs it can be arguesdto have a tactical reason)
But not knowing that someone (or everyone) is not with you is not ok. (TS excepted because of map)

[Shamguard]

Let's face it just about any quest can be a tough quest the first time.
TS has additional issues:
1) No internal map, so it is easy to get lost.
2) It's probalbly the first raid for most people and the size of the group can be intimidating for a noob.
3) At levels 8-11 a haste will miss someone, some new players don't realize this and will either run off without the haste or run off before they give everyone haste.
4) Fire and Ice is a tricky encounter and that needs to be coordinated by the party leader.
5) You need someone smart to handle the Intelligence rune (and I don't mean the character) or the party can get splitup.
6) When you run this quest at level, with new players, people will probably die. The party leader needs to be sure they are raised.
7) The quest has been modified, several times, so even experienced players may have some issues with this raid.

I guess what it comes down to is the party leader has to be just that a leader and not just the guy who found eleven other people to run the raid.
Of course it also means the other eleven need to be good followers. Even if the leader knows what he is doing if no one pays attention and just runs off and does their own thing the results will be the same as having a bad leader.

[Jaywade]

I miss the old days... speed runs of 23 min (not using cloud kill) 2 and 3 manning it w/ Dev, and bluebottom, I miss the blackguards of old (lvl 10 lvl cap era) when no one could hit them (they have since took their ac back quite a bit) ...the old way of doing fire and ice was a show (we'd pull fire to the hallway through ck and kill him then hast and run to kill ice.. was lots of fun) ....remmember when vorps worked on a crit and a vorp scimy was the best weapon in the game....it would own TS...always thought the end fight was a bit boring (gald they changed that) ...... the map not too bad once you learn the dungeon ... I wish we had 1 or 2 more raids like TS..