Overpowering Attack (a reason to stay Fighter)

[Serpent]

Just an idea for all us fighters out there who seem to have been forgotten in the mad rush to accumulate more meta magic feats

Overpowering Attack- requires Fighter level 16. In this mode, you attack slower, but your attacks do double damage.

Note that engaging this mode should not conflict with Power Attack or any other toggles.

This might just offer a reason to stay a fighter.

[Oreg]

Unlikely they will allow stance stacking...ever.

[Serpent]

Unlikely they will allow stance stacking...ever.

Thank you for the overwhelmingly supportive response... now any more ideas from any others

[Aesop]

Unlikely they will allow stance stacking...ever.

Well... they allow metamagic stacking... I suppose those are Meta Stances... but they could make this a meta stance as well. Could be fun

Aesop

[oronisi]

I hate it. I hate anything that's supposed to force going pure-classed just to be a pure class. I'd rather see them implement a sweet super-powered feat that has a TON of prerequisite feats. Like whirlwind or shot on the run, but to the next level.

[llevenbaxx]

I hate it. I hate anything that's supposed to force going pure-classed just to be a pure class. I'd rather see them implement a sweet super-powered feat that has a TON of prerequisite feats. Like whirlwind or shot on the run, but to the next level.

Agree, what special feats will my MC characters going to get access to that pures dont?

Just plain dont like all these feat ideas that stem from pure only builds(or any other specific build type).

Im sure they will add more feats to the game that favor all classes. Whats wrong with adding them in as all the others? There is the next teir of Cleave(Unlimited Cleave or something like that). Im not sure how they will impliment it, prolly jus give 2 full radius swings, which will be quite nice.

I would like to see ftrs(and palys and rangers for that matter) get a crit extender like the barb crit rage, I think it was a bad idea to give this to the already hardest hitters, and not the other melee classes. Maybe make it cost a little more than a barb and have to wait a bit longer to pick it up.

I didnt really notice the fighter class was in all that much trouble as I see pure ftrs all over the place and in just about every quest I run but...

[redoubt]

I think having feats that require a lot of one class are kinda cool. It helps with diversity. I know you will say it will make cookie cutter builds, but I disagree. (Unless they make the feat too good, then yes it will be flavor of the month.)

Favored enemies and twf series, precise shot series encourage lots of levels of ranger.
Extra sneak attack damage encourages lots of levels of rogue.
Barb has to stay pure to get the uber crit enhancement.
Casters have to stay pure to get higher spells.
Fighters get feats noone else does because they specialize in fighting.

I'm not saying the OP has it perfect. I really don't know. But, pure barbs are pretty poplular today. Why not add something for high level fighters?

Its not like you can't multiclass just because there is a high level feat in a given class. You just have to choose which things you want more. (i.e. as a caster, do you want all the metamagics spell swapping or do you want to cast fast. Its one or the other. Yes, thats not feat based, but being forced to choose which benifits you want does have tons of precident in this game.)

[redoubt]

Agree, what special feats will my MC characters going to get access to that pures dont?

Just plain dont like all these feat ideas that stem from pure only builds(or any other specific build type).
...

I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't understand the argument being posed here (not just baxx, but the others opposed to the OP as well). I'm hoping there is a logic I'm not seeing and its not just whining.

How are special feats for MC any different than feats for pure class?

It seems like the argument is "I don't want Lxx of class xxx to get a special feat, because I don't want to take that many levels of it and I want that feat!"

Look at evasion. You can get it one of two ways. L2 rogue or L9 ranger. If you want it, take that many levels of that class. But you will lose access to something else. Choose, and choose wisely. (Sorry, we can't have it all.)

[Serpent]

I hate it. I hate anything that's supposed to force going pure-classed just to be a pure class. I'd rather see them implement a sweet super-powered feat that has a TON of prerequisite feats. Like whirlwind or shot on the run, but to the next level.

Just so you know this is a feat that is available in pnp. It allows a fighter to do something that another class can't do. Why should those that play fighters not have something special. Bards have warchanter, virtuoso and spellsinger. Barbarians have the improved crit enhancement. Fighters really don't have an enhancement that makes them special. Most fighters infact take a splash of rogue or pally or rnager jsut to get the added benefits of those classes. I think any pure build should get some kind of reward for sticking with it through all the levels.

[ErgonomicCat]

I think having feats that require a lot of one class are kinda cool. It helps with diversity. I know you will say it will make cookie cutter builds, but I disagree. (Unless they make the feat too good, then yes it will be flavor of the month.)

Favored enemies and twf series, precise shot series encourage lots of levels of ranger.
Extra sneak attack damage encourages lots of levels of rogue.
Barb has to stay pure to get the uber crit enhancement.
Casters have to stay pure to get higher spells.
Fighters get feats noone else does because they specialize in fighting.

I'm not saying the OP has it perfect. I really don't know. But, pure barbs are pretty poplular today. Why not add something for high level fighters?

Its not like you can't multiclass just because there is a high level feat in a given class. You just have to choose which things you want more. (i.e. as a caster, do you want all the metamagics spell swapping or do you want to cast fast. Its one or the other. Yes, thats not feat based, but being forced to choose which benifits you want does have tons of precident in this game.)

None of those are *feats* though. That's the point. Feats can require certain things, but feats should never require levels in a class.

Class abilities? Sure. Enhancements? Yes. Spells? That's a class ability. *Number* of feats? Okay.

But a specific feat? Nope. That's a fundamental principle of DnD, and just makes sense. You can set the bar at BAB +16 (only melee classes) and 10 particular feats, but don't just say "Fighter 16 required."

[ErgonomicCat]

Just so you know this is a feat that is available in pnp. It allows a fighter to do something that another class can't do. Why should those that play fighters not have something special. Bards have warchanter, virtuoso and spellsinger. Barbarians have the improved crit enhancement. Fighters really don't have an enhancement that makes them special. Most fighters infact take a splash of rogue or pally or rnager jsut to get the added benefits of those classes. I think any pure build should get some kind of reward for sticking with it through all the levels.

It's not a feat.

It's a fighter substitution level, and *replaces* the fighter's ability to choose a feat.

It is, in essence, an enhancement.

[Serpent]

It's not a feat.

It's a fighter substitution level, and *replaces* the fighter's ability to choose a feat.

It is, in essence, an enhancement.

I apologize i meant to say ability not feat... anyways yes you are right requiring a bab of +x is always the best way to do things. I'm simply saying that maybe some fighters out there would like a little help, apparently not.

[llevenbaxx]

I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't understand the argument being posed here (not just baxx, but the others opposed to the OP as well). I'm hoping there is a logic I'm not seeing and its not just whining.

How are special feats for MC any different than feats for pure class?

It seems like the argument is "I don't want Lxx of class xxx to get a special feat, because I don't want to take that many levels of it and I want that feat!"

Look at evasion. You can get it one of two ways. L2 rogue or L9 ranger. If you want it, take that many levels of that class. But you will lose access to something else. Choose, and choose wisely. (Sorry, we can't have it all.)

Thats exactly what we're saying though. There are a ton of feats that could be implimented from PnP into DDO. VERY few(none to my recollection) of them require you to have 14 levels of anything to get them. Sure there are some long progressions that heavily favor the ftr class and there are already class specific feats for every class(many of which are pulled from the general pool but bypass certain pre-reqs).

We(or at least me) just dont see the need to add more of these class(and build) specific feats. Why would my pal12/ftr2 not be able to learn this Overpowering attack feat? Sounds like it would have a str req, whats hitting really hard have to do specifically with being a ftr? Why cant my paly hit really hard? Weapon specialization... ftrs are weapons masters, this makes good sense to me that they can be a little more affective with a certain type of weapon. Its balanced, it requires you get focus(a feat any with a +1BAB can get) and gives a small bonus.

Ideas like this just strike me as only me feats, and only for the purpose of creating gaps between them and other builds. There no flavor to it, its just I want to do X2 damage in addition to crits. I think this is a bad idea the same way I think barb crit rage is a bad idea. It creates an unjustified, unrecoverable gap in power for a specific class with a specific build. It may sound like I want all the classes balanced vs each other but its more about having the classes balanced vs the content. DPS is the most viable form of combat in this game due mostly to red named mods and blanket immunities the Devs have implimented(basically its the only combat that ALWAYS works). It only makes sense that you keep the classes reasonbly balanced from a DPS standpoint... and I dont whine.

[redoubt]

None of those are *feats* though. That's the point. Feats can require certain things, but feats should never require levels in a class.

Class abilities? Sure. Enhancements? Yes. Spells? That's a class ability. *Number* of feats? Okay.

But a specific feat? Nope. That's a fundamental principle of DnD, and just makes sense. You can set the bar at BAB +16 (only melee classes) and 10 particular feats, but don't just say "Fighter 16 required."

Maybe we are talking across each other since I don't play PnP and may not term things the same.

From what I can tell in DDO:
Evasion is a feat. (rogue 2 or ranger 9 required.)
Favored enemy is a feat. (Ranger level x is required.)
Weapon specialization is a feat (fighter level 4 required.)
Greater weapon focus is a feat (fighter level 8 required.)
Greater weapon specialization is a feat (fighter level 12 required.)

There are others that show up in the feat list. Are you calling the automatic ones "abilities" instead of feats? If so, that still leaves the advanced weapons feats that fighters already get that noone else does. There may be others, but those are the ones I can think of.

[Aesop]

well... other than Weapon Spec Greater Weapon Spec Greater Weapon Focus... and a few from the Player Handbook 2 I believe require Fighter levels 14 and 16... maybe 18. Book isn't in front of me right now... I could be mistaken on that... it might just require SPec an Greater and BAB 16 or something like that\


Aesop

[redoubt]

Thats exactly what we're saying though. There are a ton of feats that could be implimented from PnP into DDO. VERY few(none to my recollection) of them require you to have 14 levels of anything to get them. Sure there are some long progressions that heavily favor the ftr class and there are already class specific feats for every class(many of which are pulled from the general pool but bypass certain pre-reqs).

We(or at least me) just dont see the need to add more of these class(and build) specific feats. Why would my pal12/ftr2 not be able to learn this Overpowering attack feat? Sounds like it would have a str req, whats hitting really hard have to do specifically with being a ftr? Why cant my paly hit really hard? Weapon specialization... ftrs are weapons masters, this makes good sense to me that they can be a little more affective with a certain type of weapon. Its balanced, it requires you get focus(a feat any with a +1BAB can get) and gives a small bonus.

Ideas like this just strike me as only me feats, and only for the purpose of creating gaps between them and other builds. There no flavor to it, its just I want to do X2 damage in addition to crits. I think this is a bad idea the same way I think barb crit rage is a bad idea. It creates an unjustified, unrecoverable gap in power for a specific class with a specific build. It may sound like I want all the classes balanced vs each other but its more about having the classes balanced vs the content. DPS is the most viable form of combat in this game due mostly to red named mods and blanket immunities the Devs have implimented(basically its the only combat that ALWAYS works). It only makes sense that you keep the classes reasonbly balanced from a DPS standpoint... and I dont whine.

Cool. My argument was never for or against this specific "feat". But more in favor of allowing class or race or level combinations of feats (or maybe abilities). Maybe "overpowering attack" is a progression for everyone. I can be cool with that if the argument is based on logic and/or precident. Having it based on str and bab would make sense to me.

I could also see continueing to superior weapon focus and specialization as fighter only feats. (Sure would love a bit of it on my ranger, but I've gotten past that.)

Or greater crit range. A times 2.5 or 3. on the crit range. This could go either way. Open to anyone with a certain bab, or like greater weapon focus, only available to the "weapon masters".

If you have logic behind it, I don't think you are whining.

[Vienemen]

WotC designed specific advantages for high level fighters (PHBII I think). Most are above lvl 15 I think. There were not many..maybe 3 or 4 total class substitution feats (since thats what fighters get as their special ability). They required a certain number of fighter levels to make a pure (or mostly pure) fighter build to appeal to the masses/compete with other builds. If you like the feat/substitution...make a fighter of the appropriate level. If you dont like them, eh nothing to worry bout. But indeed they should be added...and I look forward to them.

V

[GramercyRiff]

Maybe we are talking across each other since I don't play PnP and may not term things the same.

From what I can tell in DDO:
Evasion is a feat. (rogue 2 or ranger 9 required.)
Favored enemy is a feat. (Ranger level x is required.)
Weapon specialization is a feat (fighter level 4 required.)
Greater weapon focus is a feat (fighter level 8 required.)
Greater weapon specialization is a feat (fighter level 12 required.)

There are others that show up in the feat list. Are you calling the automatic ones "abilities" instead of feats? If so, that still leaves the advanced weapons feats that fighters already get that noone else does. There may be others, but those are the ones I can think of.

Evasion isn't a feat. It's a class ability or class feature (can't remember the exact term). Favored enemy is also not a feat, it's a class feature/ability. Basically anything derived from your class isn't a feat. Feats are something any class/race can get provided they meet the prerequisites. Class features/abilities are strictly tied to their relevant class. I'm sure DDO lumps class features/abilities with feats to save space in the character sheet.

Think of the weapon foci and the weapon spec's as fighter class features/abilities, rather than feats. Almost all other feats don't require you be a certain class, other than the spellcasting feats (those obviously require some type of spellcasting class).

[llevenbaxx]

Evasion isn't a feat. It's a class ability or class feature (can't remember the exact term). Favored enemy is also not a feat, it's a class feature/ability. Basically anything derived from your class isn't a feat. Feats are something any class/race can get provided they meet the prerequisites. Class features/abilities are strictly tied to their relevant class. I'm sure DDO lumps class features/abilities with feats to save space in the character sheet.

Think of the weapon foci and the weapon spec's as fighter class features/abilities, rather than feats. Almost all other feats don't require you be a certain class, other than the spellcasting feats (those obviously require some type of spellcasting class).

At the same time though alot of class feats(/features/abilities) are right off the feats list and are attainable by any class that meet the pre-reqs. A rangers combat style for instance, pointblank shot or TWF, just simple feats. Fighter is obviously the nost glaring example as all his class features are just feats, though they must be chosen from a shortened list of combat related feats.

[Cowdenicus]

Just so you know this is a feat that is available in pnp. It allows a fighter to do something that another class can't do. Why should those that play fighters not have something special. Bards have warchanter, virtuoso and spellsinger. Barbarians have the improved crit enhancement. Fighters really don't have an enhancement that makes them special. Most fighters infact take a splash of rogue or pally or rnager jsut to get the added benefits of those classes. I think any pure build should get some kind of reward for sticking with it through all the levels.

A level 14 fighter has 13 feats, 14 if human, I would say that is pretty special.