Of Magi and False Life

[jjflanigan]

I would like to request that magi items and false life items maintain the % value of the appropriate stat when you equip them.

Currently, if you have 200 / 200 hp and put on a greater false life item, you'll then have 200 / 230 hp. However, I feel it would be more beneficial if you put it on and went to 230 / 230 hp. Now, before you state that this will be abused as a means to "heal for free," I stated it should maintain the % value. 200 / 200 is 100%, so equipping it would take you to 230 / 230, again 100%.

If, however, you were at 20 / 200 or 10%, then equipping the greater false life item would put you at 23 / 230. This would allow players who are already juggling a lot of gear a bit of leniency if they forget to equip their hp / sp item before resting at a shrine. As long as they equip it before they begin taking damage or casting spells, they will still be able to receive the full benefit.

Keeping it a % instead of a flat value will remove the risk of people using it as a "free heal" (or "free mnemonic") exploit, while adding a bit of user-friendliness into the current situation.

[BlueLightBandit]

I would like to request that magi items and false life items maintain the % value of the appropriate stat when you equip them.

Currently, if you have 200 / 200 hp and put on a greater false life item, you'll then have 200 / 230 hp. However, I feel it would be more beneficial if you put it on and went to 230 / 230 hp. Now, before you state that this will be abused as a means to "heal for free," I stated it should maintain the % value. 200 / 200 is 100%, so equipping it would take you to 230 / 230, again 100%.

If, however, you were at 20 / 200 or 10%, then equipping the greater false life item would put you at 23 / 230. This would allow players who are already juggling a lot of gear a bit of leniency if they forget to equip their hp / sp item before resting at a shrine. As long as they equip it before they begin taking damage or casting spells, they will still be able to receive the full benefit.

Keeping it a % instead of a flat value will remove the risk of people using it as a "free heal" (or "free mnemonic") exploit, while adding a bit of user-friendliness into the current situation.

I'm so confused as to what you're getting at...

If you have 200 hp and equip a greater false life item, you have 230 hp. When you take that item off, you will have 200 hp again.

If you have 10 hp and equip a greater false life item, you have 40 hp. When you take that item off, you will have 10 hp again.

The exploit that you were referring to requires a specific item, and afaik that has been fixed.

[jjflanigan]

I'm so confused as to what you're getting at...

If you have 200 hp and equip a greater false life item, you have 230 hp. When you take that item off, you will have 200 hp again.

If you have 10 hp and equip a greater false life item, you have 40 hp. When you take that item off, you will have 10 hp again.

The exploit that you were referring to requires a specific item, and afaik that has been fixed.

You are incorrect in how you state it currently works. Go in game and remove your false life item, then make sure you are completely healed to full. Once you are fully healed, equip your false life item. Your MAXIMUM hit points will increase, but your current hit points will not. This means if you were at 200 (Current) / 200 (max) hitpoints and equipped a greater false life item, you will have 200 (current) / 230 (max) hitpoints.

This means if you heal to full (or shrine) without the item being equipped (false life or spell point increaser), you will not gain anything by equipping the item.

I mentioned the "exploit" to prevent people from saying "They can't do this because people could exploit it by doing X". By explaining how the % increase would prevent that from happening, I was hoping to stave off those comments.

*edit*

Another example of why the current implementation is sub-optimal. As a caster you have a weapon with magi on it. You shrine to full, then swap out the weapon to use a wand, when you swap the magi weapon back in, you don't gain back the spell points you lost by removing it. So if you were at 1000/1000 after shrining, just by removing and re-equipping the item you are instantly at 900 / 1000 (or less if you're a sorcerer), even though you didn't use any of your spell points.

[HFGfeather]

I am a wizard say I wear the Robe of the Magi I switch to a robe of fire resistance to get passed a fire giant casting fire at me and there is a pool of lava that I might fall into. So when I removed the robe of the Magi I lost 100 spell points. But was protected from fire. I am now passed the fire problems and put on my robe of the Magi I don't get thoes spell points back untill I find a shrine. The Robe is useless unless I carry no other robes. The Staff or other weapon of the Magi are also useless unless you never change weapons or never use a wand. All they do is make you loose spell points when you swap them out. Magi should only be on items you would not normally swap out in a battle or a quest.
Azari

[jjflanigan]

I am a wizard say I wear the Robe of the Magi I switch to a robe of fire resistance to get passed a fire giant casting fire at me and there is a pool of lava that I might fall into. So when I removed the robe of the Magi I lost 100 spell points. But was protected from fire. I am now passed the fire problems and put on my robe of the Magi I don't get thoes spell points back untill I find a shrine. The Robe is useless unless I carry no other robes. The Staff or other weapon of the Magi are also useless unless you never change weapons or never use a wand. All they do is make you loose spell points when you swap them out. Magi should only be on items you would not normally swap out in a battle or a quest.
Azari

Correct. That's why I think making it retain the % of spell points when you remove / equip on of the items would be beneficial. If you remove it and then put it back on, you would go back to exactly where you were when you removed it.

[QuantumFX]

/agreed

Switching between the Titan Belt and a Planar Gird just makes my characters wanna /cry...

[Stravkos]

Agreed as well. Though a small tip: put your magi item in your offhand. That way you can still use wands and such without unequipping your magi item.

[BlueLightBandit]

So you guys want to be able to keep the extra spell points even when you remove the magi item?

That's not really the intent of the item. It even says so in the description... as it increases the max spell points, not the current spell points.

I think they work fine the way they exist currently.

[jjflanigan]

So you guys want to be able to keep the extra spell points even when you remove the magi item?

That's not really the intent of the item. It even says so in the description... as it increases the max spell points, not the current spell points.

I think they work fine the way they exist currently.

Yes, they work "fine" the way they are. However, making this simple change will make them much more user-friendly there-by increasing player enjoyment, without increasing player power. When you have a no-lose option that will increase player enjoyment, there's not really any reason not to do it.

[KaKa]

The problem is magi and false life do not increase based off of a % but a set number. A 100 spell point increase is always a 100 spell point increase but a 10% increase the numbers change. And 100 spells point is a different % depending on max sp. I really don't see how this can be easily done without changing the way the items grant extra sp or hp.

Also I agree it most likely won't be able to be used as a free heal, they already fixed that bug.

[Galantdramon]

I can understand the complaints about hit point/spell point items and them only affecting the 'max' of the stat in question, but honestly, I seldom pay it much mind anymore.

With a "+spell points" item on any of my casters, I get to a shrine, swap out, rest, toss however many buffs that extra mana would let me, swap back to my "battle gear" set, finish buffing and go about my business.

I normally run a potency in one hand, and a penetration in the other...the extra mana from my magi scepter is strictly 'bonus' points, to be used allowing me to toss a few more buffs after any particular shrine.

Very early on, I didn't need to worry about mobs with a bazillion spell resistance, and I carried a potency in my main hand, and a spell point booster in my off-hand, and simply swapped out my potency for whatever wands or scrolls I needed...now that everything is almost immune to magic, I just keep my magi item for spell points post buff, and never sweat it mid fight.

Now maybe coming from a game where if you didn't swap out 4-6 pieces of gear every time you took a deep breath you were gimping yourself (and had 4-6 'command line' macros instead of a single effect hotkey) makes it easier for me to keep that juggling act up, but it shouldn't be that hard to get into the habit of hitting alt+1, double-click shrine, take a sip of soda, cast buffs until extra mana gone, hit alt+2, finish buff cycle.

Galantdramon
-------------
Baramon (Sorc 8)/Taroc (Wiz14-WF) - Argonnessen (Second City Saints)

[jjflanigan]

The problem is magi and false life do not increase based off of a % but a set number. A 100 spell point increase is always a 100 spell point increase but a 10% increase the numbers change. And 100 spells point is a different % depending on max sp. I really don't see how this can be easily done without changing the way the items grant extra sp or hp.

Also I agree it most likely won't be able to be used as a free heal, they already fixed that bug.

It's not a change it's an addition. The bonus to max would function exactly as it does today. If you have 200 max sp and you equip a magi item, you go up to 300 max sp, no change. The modification comes in that in addition to your max sp increasing, your current sp would go up to keep the same current to max ratio (i.e. the percentage).

And as for it being hard, it's not hard, it's just not needed. Right now it is only a problem if you have a bad memory or if you just make a mistake prior to shrining (or hit a wrong hotkey that changes a piece of gear). My main point is, why? Making it so that it maintains the % ratio of current to maximum hp / sp would be a relatively simple change programmatically. In addition, there's no negative, it would have no "Exploit" like effects and it wouldn't negatively impact anyone's gameplay.

Why not implement a change that should be "easy" (in the scope of game changes) that has no negative effects on any players?

*edit*

Just as an aside. I do not have a problem with how it currently is. On each of my casters the SP item is one that I never need to swap out and my GFL item is a belt, which I don't need to switch on any of them either. I've just been playing a lot of lowbie alts lately and have seen a lot of "cursing" in group chat when someone forgot to switch in an item before shrining so they missed out on several buffs worth of spell points.

And yes, they should just learn to do it like everyone else, that's not the point though. It doesn't "dumb down" the game, but it could be very helpful for many players who juggle a lot of gear or are just not able to focus on so many different things as to check "ok, do I have my shrining gear on?" every time they want to rest.

[HFGfeather]

Agreed as well. Though a small tip: put your magi item in your offhand. That way you can still use wands and such without unequipping your magi item.

Yea, I thought that would work too untill I tried it. Works great for casting wands but when I went to use my real weapon a sweet little +4 Sound Burst dagger of puncturing. I am a wizard so I take a heck of a hit when duel whelding the dagger and the Magi weapon in the off hand. So when I put a hold on the giant and went in for the kill with my dagger even thought I was Critting every time it took me 4 Xs as many hits to kill the giant then it normally would have.

So sorry your little tip was not so great in that case. If I was using a staff of the Magi well that is 2 handed.

If the Devs don't want to make items that are really useable then just drop plat in the chest or bring in Crafting and let us creat our own decent items from the scraps you Devs leave in the chests. Let us trim off the crappy stuff like Vicious Vorpal of Simon's slicing remarks and make a usefull weapon or move the Magi effect to something actually usefull. It would give us something else to do when we are capped.
Azari

[BlueLightBandit]

Yea, I thought that would work too untill I tried it. Works great for casting wands but when I went to use my real weapon a sweet little +4 Sound Burst dagger of puncturing. I am a wizard so I take a heck of a hit when duel whelding the dagger and the Magi weapon in the off hand. So when I put a hold on the giant and went in for the kill with my dagger even thought I was Critting every time it took me 4 Xs as many hits to kill the giant then it normally would have.

So sorry your little tip was not so great in that case. If I was using a staff of the Magi well that is 2 handed.

If the Devs don't want to make items that are really useable then just drop plat in the chest or bring in Crafting and let us creat our own decent items from the scraps you Devs leave in the chests. Let us trim off the crappy stuff like Vicious Vorpal of Simon's slicing remarks and make a usefull weapon or move the Magi effect to something actually usefull. It would give us something else to do when we are capped.
Azari

Dude... you're a caster... cast something that kills the mob, or cast hold and let your party members do it. Everything in this game has a trade off... no one item can be equipped without LOSING the ability to equip something else in the same spot. So the benefit you gain from holding a magi scepter in your off hand comes with a price, you suffer a tohit penatly... which brings me to my first point... YOU'RE A CASTER. The whole point of being a caster is that you have much much much weaker melee abilities... That's kinda how the game was designed.

[MysticTheurge]

This change would essentially make most of these items less useful for a lot of people, and here's why.

The only way to keep this from being exploitable is to make it so you maintain the same percentage of stats when you put it on and take if off. That is:

If you have 1000/1000 spell points and put on a Magi item you would stay at 100% and go to 1100/1100.

If you then cast spells to go down to 990/1100 (90%) and then take your item off, you have to continue to stay at 90% or the system becomes abusable.

If you stay at 990/1000 you go from 90% to 99% and then you can put your item back on and you'll be at 1099/1100 gaining a bunch of spell points.

So essentially, when you take the magi item off you have to go from 990/1100 to 900/1000 maintaining your percentage at 90%.

What this means is that you have to keep your magi item on or you don't gain many spell points at all. This means no more switching your PoPX for a different trinket after you've already spent 100 spell points. It means no switching Magi Robes for other Robes.

You have to keep wearing the item or you lose the benefit from it. Now, you can later put the item back on and gain some the spell points back, but essentially, because of the way percentages work every spell point you spend while you're not wearing the item you lose some of the bonus from the item.

I'd rather just keep it so you shrine with the item on, buff with those spell points and then switch to another more useful item.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I've got to agree with MT on this one. Losing a percentage is not a good thing. I don't have a wearable PowerX item and it unnecessarily penalizes scepter wielders.

And adding HP/SP leads to problems (as we saw with Minos Legens helm). However, they did fix that one and make it replaceable HP like adding a CON item. But, they can't apply that fix to SP, otherwise, people could just reserve their magi item and add spell points during the quest (even if just one time). I don't see that ever happening. How do you control it? Even if it was unique, you could carry multiple magis and keep adding SP.

[Perceval418]

Agree /signed

[jjflanigan]

This change would essentially make most of these items less useful for a lot of people, and here's why.

The only way to keep this from being exploitable is to make it so you maintain the same percentage of stats when you put it on and take if off. That is:

If you have 1000/1000 spell points and put on a Magi item you would stay at 100% and go to 1100/1100.

If you then cast spells to go down to 990/1100 (90%) and then take your item off, you have to continue to stay at 90% or the system becomes abusable.

If you stay at 990/1000 you go from 90% to 99% and then you can put your item back on and you'll be at 1099/1100 gaining a bunch of spell points.

So essentially, when you take the magi item off you have to go from 990/1100 to 900/1000 maintaining your percentage at 90%.

What this means is that you have to keep your magi item on or you don't gain many spell points at all. This means no more switching your PoPX for a different trinket after you've already spent 100 spell points. It means no switching Magi Robes for other Robes.

You have to keep wearing the item or you lose the benefit from it. Now, you can later put the item back on and gain some the spell points back, but essentially, because of the way percentages work every spell point you spend while you're not wearing the item you lose some of the bonus from the item.

I'd rather just keep it so you shrine with the item on, buff with those spell points and then switch to another more useful item.

Thank you for that MT. I always miss something when I start going over ideas for changes that I want to suggest. In this case, I didn't even think about the % retention affecting some players in a negative manner.

I do, however, still think that the % retention would be a better idea. Otherwise the items are working more like "spell storing" items than anything else. You wear it so you can cast X extra spells, once you cast them, you remove it and go about your business as though they never existed.

[Kerr]

I'm against it. If it's a mana item, spend the Mana in buffs then take it off after shrining and swap to a different item that helps you. If it's a HP item, then just leave it on, or find a dedicated spot where you won't remove it. You can't have everything in this world, or even DDO.

[Onubis]

The problem is magi and false life do not increase based off of a % but a set number. A 100 spell point increase is always a 100 spell point increase but a 10% increase the numbers change. And 100 spells point is a different % depending on max sp. I really don't see how this can be easily done without changing the way the items grant extra sp or hp.

Also I agree it most likely won't be able to be used as a free heal, they already fixed that bug.

neither do stat items BUT when u remove/add a con item or cha item (for sor) then ur hp/sp is adjusted accordingly.
This is how JJ wants magi and false life to work.
heres how u can get around loss of sp when de-equiping the item(the problem MT pointed out in this)
if(current sp < base sp + magi item)
sp total = current sp
else
{
sp percent = current sp / base sp
sp total = (base sp + magi item) x sp percent
}
base sp here means what ever sp is without magi
current sp here means what ever sp u are currently at