Bucklers

[GuitarHero]

Hey, while you guys are fixing ranged combat, how about this. A buckler is designed to be used by archers. An archer can have a buckler equipped and suffer very little to hit ability to fire a bow. Could we get this applied to DDO? It just makes sense to me that this should be possible.

[Fennario]

Totally agree. Have always wondered why this wasn't the case. Not an unreasonable request at all, and doesn't seem like it would be hard to implement.

[Memnir]

Bucklers in DDO are an utter joke as they are now. Either fix them or remove them. Why have them if they are only a Light Shield in all but name only (and occasionally smaller graphics)?

But hey... this is just another item on the long, long list of things that have been asked for since beta. I'm sure we'll see a fix to them sometime around Mod 12 or so at this rate.

[Rouge]

Hey, while you guys are fixing ranged combat, how about this. A buckler is designed to be used by archers. An archer can have a buckler equipped and suffer very little to hit ability to fire a bow. Could we get this applied to DDO? It just makes sense to me that this should be possible.

hmmmm.....

Currently a Buckler takes up the same equip slot as a Bow does.......

Drag a Bow and a Buckler to a weapon quick slot (you must do this or it will not work) when you click it, both equip (the physical part would work for sure) and you do not take that penalty to your AC for things attacking you with a bow in hand, and you take a small penalty (say, -2) to hit with your ranged attacks.

[Invalid_86]

I brought this up to the reps at the DDO booth at Gen Con 2006. Still haven't seen any changes.

[Aesop]

They'd need to add a Buckler Slot. We argued for this in Beta and since launch but to no avail.

Aesop

[QuantumFX]

This isn't the first time nor the last time that this subject will come up. Honestly I don't think it will happen until Double weapons get implemented. (The developers have either been working on it since before mod 3 or they're just cruel sadistic bastards.)

The problem starts with the fact that we have an off hand weapon slot and no shield slot. AFAIK in the 3.5 ruleset you should be able to equip a buckler while TWF/THF/Ranged fighting but at a -1 to hit (on the off hand for twf). That may be problematic to code right there.

[llevenbaxx]

Agree, I went too equip one my second character(a 2-handed ftr) a couple days after launch and was like *** is this ****. One of those things you just want to say, figure this out already.

I remember some were saying they did it for balance reasons but with the limited usfulness of AC currently I think this line of thinking falls a little flat.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

should bucklers be more like bracers...then?
not function if you are wearing a shield but apply their defense in all other applications?

Huh...

And why the heck are they still giving arcane spell failures?
The things look like frisbies...and move (visually speaking) with the arm fluidly...leaving the fingers free.

I would think that greatsword wielding sorc would get more of an arcane spell failure than a buckler wearing one..


lol...

[QuantumFX]

remember some were saying they did it for balance reasons but with the limited usfulness of AC currently I think this line of thinking falls a little flat.

I think their line of reasoning is that you lose a -1 to your off hand weapon for a free magical item slot. These same ppl have probably never opened a 3.5 ruleset book in their lives. If they did they'd realize that TWF is losing a major source of defence that's legitimately available to them. (Imp Buckler Defense) And that Sword n Board got screwed as well. (Imp. Shield Bash may be working as the original devs intended but not how the D&D 3.5 ruleset intended.) And that it made sure we weren't going to get double weapons.

Sorry if I sound snippy it just burns my ass that THF got an upgrade in this game and every other fighting style got the shaft.

[ErgonomicCat]

I think their line of reasoning is that you lose a -1 to your off hand weapon for a free magical item slot. These same ppl have probably never opened a 3.5 ruleset book in their lives. If they did they'd realize that TWF is losing a major source of defence that's legitimately available to them. (Imp Buckler Defense) And that Sword n Board got screwed as well. (Imp. Shield Bash may be working as the original devs intended but not how the D&D 3.5 ruleset intended.) And that it made sure we weren't going to get double weapons.

Sorry if I sound snippy it just burns my ass that THF got an upgrade in this game and every other fighting style got the shaft.

All weapon specific feats now apply to a class of weapons, not a specific weapon.

That is a *huge* upgrade to TWF. No more dual wielding short swords, because they're the best you can get without double spending the feats....

Now you can go Khopesh and Kukri for huge crits, or rapier and short sword, or....

You can pick up enhancements to give you bonus to hit, negating the TWF penalty in ways you can't get in PnP.

Really, TWF has it so much better in DDO than it does in PnP. The loss of bucklers is a minimal impact - TWF is a damage dealing style, just like THF. It's not an AC style.

Now the loss of animated shield hurts....

[muffinlad]

Bucklers should become relevant, and be able to be used by TWF/THF/Archers.

The End.

muffinbucker

[Mad_Bombardier]

Bucklers should become relevant, and be able to be used by TWF/THF/Archers.

The End.

Sort of. Archers can use a Buckler at all times without penalty. TWF who choose to attack with offhand lose the Buckler AC. There's no room for normal Buckler use in DDO as it's an either/or situation. Why take -1 to hit when you can always swap weapon sets to shield and weapon. THF always uses the offhand, so can never benefit from normal buckler use.

We'd also need to see the feat, Improved Buckler Use. With that feat, TWF and THF can maintain the Buckler AC while fighting (like in DDO, ImpShieldBash gets to maintain AC while bashing), but still get the -1 to-hit.


P.S. Side note, I never understood why Buckler and Light Shield offer the same AC bonus. It would make more sense to me that the smaller buckler would be base AC 0 and only receive AC bonus from enchantment. /meh

[GuitarHero]

P.S. Side note, I never understood why Buckler and Light Shield offer the same AC bonus. It would make more sense to me that the smaller buckler would be base AC 0 and only receive AC bonus from enchantment. /meh

well, this has to do with the fact that there's things you can do with a light shield, such as bash, or add spikes, that you can't do with a buckler. Not defending it, but they offer basically the same protection with a few modifications in the things you can do with them.

[Mad_Bombardier]

well, this has to do with the fact that there's things you can do with a light shield, such as bash, or add spikes, that you can't do with a buckler. Not defending it, but they offer basically the same protection with a few modifications in the things you can do with them.

Yup, I understand those limitations. But, I always considered that the trade off for being able to wield while TWF or using bows. I suppose the creators wanted to give some value to non-magic/masterwork bucklers, as you use them considerably more than enchanted ones in non-Monty Haul campaigns.

[Aesop]

LIke I said a buckler slot would need to be added. Shields would take over both the off hand and buckler slots. Bucklers would only take the BUckler slot. There is a -1 to hit while using a buckler (but then again Tower Shield have a significant negative for being tower shields). I personally always thought Tower Shield should offer a +5 base shield bonus, Heavy +3, Light +2 and Buckler +1... but that's just me. Implement Improved Buckler Defense (because you don't technically get the bonus while attacking otherwise). Then again I always thought that the base Blocking DR for a Shield should be based off the shield bonus (including enhancement bonuses) and have Adamantine double this base (without enhancement bonuses). Making a +5 Adamantine Tower Shield have a base DR (before involving BAB, Feats or anything else) of 13... but really that's for a different topic I suppose.



Aesop

[Elthbert]

I think their line of reasoning is that you lose a -1 to your off hand weapon for a free magical item slot. These same ppl have probably never opened a 3.5 ruleset book in their lives. If they did they'd realize that TWF is losing a major source of defence that's legitimately available to them. (Imp Buckler Defense) And that Sword n Board got screwed as well. (Imp. Shield Bash may be working as the original devs intended but not how the D&D 3.5 ruleset intended.) And that it made sure we weren't going to get double weapons.

Sorry if I sound snippy it just burns my ass that THF got an upgrade in this game and every other fighting style got the shaft.

Well In PNP TWF is probably the most powerful, followed by THF and then by Sword and board, I was kind of happy to see twf moved down a peg and sword and board, well it just sucks in D&D , it is better in DDO than it is in PNP so perhaps people should be happy.

[GuitarHero]

Well In PNP TWF is probably the most powerful, followed by THF and then by Sword and board, I was kind of happy to see twf moved down a peg and sword and board, well it just sucks in D&D , it is better in DDO than it is in PNP so perhaps people should be happy.

BUT, TWF was so powerful because you had to sacrifice to get it. formerly 2 feats, now just 1. to get THF, you just had to drop your shield and put your other hand on the hilt, and bam, your THF'ing!!! in the land of min-max MMO, you STILL have a major sacrifice to TWF, and almost no sacrifice for THF, since this game is more based on dealing more damage to them than they deal to you and hope you win! Even though this is the case, i see this having very little to do with the fact that bucklers have no signifigant advantages, and don't even do the basic things they are INTENDED to be used for. Nobody picks up the dinner plate sized shield to go into battle because they thought it was "cute."

[QuantumFX]

Well In PNP TWF is probably the most powerful, followed by THF and then by Sword and board, I was kind of happy to see twf moved down a peg and sword and board, well it just sucks in D&D , it is better in DDO than it is in PNP so perhaps people should be happy.

Actually double weapons are the most powerful in P&P. (You can mix and match THF/TWF) Followed by THF (They get the most advantage out of Power attack and cleave/greater cleave)

Turbine added the whole passive cleave functionality (which I have no problem with.) to THF. Now TWF did get power attack applied to the off hand which is a plus but we lost defensive capablity. The argument made earlier that somehow the Improved Crit feat managed to magically equalize the styles is false. The change affects affects all fighting styles equally. So in comparison to P&P THF gained more and TWF lost out.

What people don't seem to understand about Sword n Board is that it's also a TWF style. Thanks to the messed up implementation of Improved Shield Bash we get a slow single attack and not Gladiator or 300.

[ErgonomicCat]

Actually double weapons are the most powerful in P&P. (You can mix and match THF/TWF) Followed by THF (They get the most advantage out of Power attack and cleave/greater cleave)

QFT.

If you haven't seen some of the ubercharger builds, which typically end up doing something like 2d6 (weapon) plus 22 (str) plus 300 (power attack), you should look at them. They're just disgusting. You can get something like a x8 return on your power attack, which is already 2:1 to start.

What people don't seem to understand about Sword n Board is that it's also a TWF style. Thanks to the messed up implementation of Improved Shield Bash we get a slow single attack and not Gladiator or 300.

It's a possibly TWF style. The majority of people that take it, though, don't use it that way really. It's an AC style primarily.