Why the hate for mindless lot runs?

[Big_Russ]

Seriously, what does it matter to any other player if I enjoy zerging through Vol? Obviously if you don't like zerging, then by all means don't zerg it. Why are you so happy that some of my enjoyment in the game has now been nerfed?

I really think this was a poor decision to nerf Vol.

Edit: DOH!! Loot. Not lot.

[Partymaker]

I've been leveling rerolls since almost 2 weeks now so I haven't heard/noticed anyting about any change that might have been put in place in DToV or anywhere else...

What is the change in the Temple exactly? Something with the keys? We can no longer pull all the mods in the center for firewalls? What?

[Big_Russ]

Just look around the forums. It won't take you long to find the thread.

To slow groups down, shadows are now immune to fire, spawn in the switch room, and respawn everywhere.

Have fun whacking at disappearing creatures with your ghost touch, boys.

[Partymaker]

Immune to firewalls?! Undeads are NATURALLY VULNERABLE to fire, getting double damage from it and they're now immune....LMAO

Wow.... another good reason to stop losing my time with this crappy Orchard stuff.

Endless grinding, crappy chest loots (most of the time stuff min lvl 6-8 from a quest lvl 13 on elite....lol), crappy XP and from what we're reading now, crappy raid. Orchard FTW!

And most of the builds barely have 1-2 good items for them in the raid... wow! I just can't justify to grind for like 10 hours to get the sigils, around 100-200 hours for tomes and shields, then grind for 2 months (20th run) to "maybe" get something decent from the Abbott raid.

What's even more funny is that I'm not even a casual gamer, playing around 25-30 hours per week and I find it dumb to lose that much time on this stuff. Just guess what casual gamers are thinking about it

Now I'm REALLY glad I never counted on any raid stuff. Overall, I could say the game hasn't changed much for me atm but most raid fans should wonder now why they're still playing...

[Spectralist]

To slow groups down, shadows are now immune to fire, spawn in the switch room, and respawn everywhere.

Wow, i didn't like that quest before... but **** that's bad. No incorporeal should ever be immune to fire, that's the only way to kill them that isn't ridiculously tedious and frustrating. And respawns... They have no place whatsoever in an entirely instanced game.

[Samadhi]

Agreed. I am FAR from a casual player - but this kind of open hostility towards using tactics (AoE damage spells) on creatures that are beyond annoying to try to melee... Kiss of death...

[Invalid_86]

I 've never done the quest, and the thought of incorporeal undead being mystically immune to something that they should be taking double damage from makes me not want to do it. Sorry, had enough of that tedious fighting vanishing undead nonsense in those four Necropolis quests.

[MysticTheurge]

Undeads are NATURALLY VULNERABLE to fire, getting double damage from it and they're now immune....

This is not true.

Undead are not naturally vulnerable to fire. They are naturally vulnerable to Wall of Fire (which specifically deals double damage to undead) but not fire in general.

[Borror0]

This is not true.

Undead are not naturally vulnerable to fire. They are naturally vulnerable to Wall of Fire (which specifically deals double damage to undead) but not fire in general.

Yeah, wording different, but meaning the same in the end.

That's what he meant, they are supposed to be vulnerable to it... not immune!!??!!?

[MysticTheurge]

That's what he meant, they are supposed to be vulnerable to it... not immune!!??!!?

But just because Wall of Fire deals double damage to undead doesn't mean there should never be undead immune to fire.

I mean heck, there's one in the SRD:

Young Adult Red Dragon Skeleton

Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold and fire, undead traits

[Boulderun]

There have been undead immune to fire in this game all along - see blackbone skeletons.

That said, this change is just to increase the aggravation factor. It makes the quest take longer and provide less fun.

It's much like the ridiculous boost to flesh golems saves right before mod 5 release. Yes, they did smite too easy, but at least it was fun. That change didn't make anything significantly harder, just less fun.

[MysticTheurge]

That said, this change is just to increase the aggravation factor. It makes the quest take longer and provide less fun.

Oh, I agree with that. But I think we're kind of debating a side point. This is my take on the issue.

[Borror0]

But just because Wall of Fire deals double damage to undead doesn't mean there should never be undead immune to fire.

I wasn't saying it was a good reason to not make them immune to fire, only meant it's one reason less.

I mean heck, there's one in the SRD:

Find me a logical explanation of why Shadows would be immune to fire and I'll accept the change.

[MysticTheurge]

Find me a logical explanation of why Shadows would be immune to fire and I'll accept the change.

Elsie was just your normal every day housewife. If the house was in Stormreach and the husband were a pirate. She loathed her husband, Bluebeard, but any time she tried to tell him she was leaving he would beat her. One day she finally worked up the nerve to hire an adventurer to lie in wait and kill her husband when he next returned from sea.

When Bluebeard came home that night, she lured him into the bedroom. Once he had removed most of his armor, the dashing young rouge leaped from behind the door, bringing a wickedly curved dagger down towards the pirate. But Bluebeard caught sight of him in the mirror and, spinning quickly, slammed the young man into the floor. He then disarmed the man and slit his throat with his own knife.

Turning to his wife with fire in his eyes, Bluebeard slammed a meaty fist into her face. Terrified, she dropped to the floor, but the pirate wasn't done. Blind with rage, he crippled the woman, leaving her helpless in the house. Then he left.

Elsie could hear him rummaging around downstairs, but she couldn't move, and her feeble cries for help barely seemed to penetrate the heavy wooden walls. Slowly the air seemed to grow warmer and thicker, and a flickering glow came through the door. As Elsie died, helpless amid the flames, she swore to have her revenge. If her weakness had killed her in this life, perhaps it would become a tool for her in the next.

-------

People who die feeling particularly weak or helpless often become shadows. Because of the circumstances of her death, Elsie becomes a Shadow with the Fire subtype. Any spawn she creates afterward also become Shadows with the Fire subtype. Soon there's a veritable army of fire-immune shadows haunting the grave of a certain pirate in the Necropolis. At least until the charismatic Priest of Vol comes along and binds them to his own purposes.

[Memnir]

If they added some dialog to explain/justify the change... I'd be all for it. It'd be creative and interesting. A new twist to the monster that I'd actually enjoy. It's, oh whaddaya call it... story-telling! Thats it! And that's what these quests are at heart, right - a story. If the quest-giver was given a few lines of dialog that so many zip over to get to the Accept Quest option that explained the immunity - it'd be awesome.

But, this was just lazy. I should not have to fill in the gaps for Turbine to make myself happy with it. Hell, the Notes today could have included something like "You may want to pay more attention to [quest giver]... they have some new information you will need." Viola! Problem solved. Yes, they may be immune - but it's in a story context that makes said story more interesting.

As it is, it's a dirty and cheap move by the Devs that feels to many like a punishment.

[Shade]

I thought this quest sucked anyways. A 10 minuit mindless zerg thru undead that provided zero challenge and a bit of standard random loot wasn't my idea of fun anyways so I could care less either way..

Too bad there attempt at fixing the zerging ruined some ppls fun tho.

[Snike]

Put a 5-10 second reuse timer on thier **** Phasing, now that firewall is useless, at least make melee useful against them.

[Borror0]

People who die feeling particularly weak or helpless often become shadows. Because of the circumstances of her death, Elsie becomes a Shadow with the Fire subtype. Any spawn she creates afterward also become Shadows with the Fire subtype. Soon there's a veritable army of fire-immune shadows haunting the grave of a certain pirate in the Necropolis. At least until the charismatic Priest of Vol comes along and binds them to his own purposes.

OK, you win that again MT. Like it?

But honetly, I think you got my point too, they are just taking pleasure making the quest harder just for the fun of it.

Do they realise how that impacts Sorcerers at all? Immune to fire means that they lost their major to AoE spells, because that's how Sorcerers are most of the time, they have to focus of a few good nukes, a few good CC, a few good buffs. Of course, you could only take nukes... but that wouldn't be very part freindly. You could only take only CC... but they made red named immune to it so yoiu'd stand around looking stupid when facing those. Anyway, Halt Undead is borken.

That change is nothing to a Wizard. Ok, no fire? I'll try Acid Fog or any other spell. The Sorcerer doesn't have that freedom, not with level 6 spells.

They don't seem to think about the metagame, about the impact their changes will have on their players. all they keep on doing is pressing the easy button. Immunity, over and over again. Like someone said, it's written on the box "Unlimited: Advance your character through brawn, cunning, or wits." Funny how it might be rewritten: "Unlimited: Advance your character through hack and slashing as anything else is an exploit." We find someething, they change it. I'm fine with it, mosty of the time. But sometimes like this... it's much harder.

I was alll for the CK nerfing, god I hated that spell. But this time, what was wrong? Sure, mobs shouldn't stand in WoFs... but c'mon. immunity is not the way. Immmunity removes the fun. Gving them resist? I can see that. %0% damage reduction to fire? I can see that. Totally nerfing a spell because it's "too efficient"? No sorry, I cannot see that. CK could be used to snipe mobs. Here, you have to stand to-to-toe with them, uness you got an intimitank. You'll grab aggro for sure in a split second.

How about make them scarier? Give arcanes less reasons to grab their aggro. If WoFing the quest would rquire more than just sitting there, think everyone would attempt it? Maybe not. But no, you guys went for that freaking easy button... again.

I don't mind most of your changes, but immunities are making me really mad.

Blanket immunities are annoying. I can see why a red/purple name is immune to insta-death. Pretty obvious, would make the game way too easy. How ever, trip not working? Why do all the red named have this imminity? A few, I'd understand. It'd be a rare powerful spell, but a few could have that immunity, no problem. Also, some could have a great save against it and would get up in no time. But sadly no, everything is immune.

All they want us to do is hack ans slash. If they want us to think, they'll come up with a puzzle. We cannot even use the georaphie to our use most of the time... they nerf it. I'm not talking about safe spots like the Reaver, I'm all against those. I'm just thinking about the idea we get but that doesn't work... or get nerfed at the next update.

Beholder in the preraid is a good one. I've thought about casting a MEAN Blade Barier on top and hiding under an iceberg with UWA item and waiting. When the Barier will have finished, I come out, use intimidate.... run around while the cleric cast another one. You may say it's abusing the AI, I say to each their own weapon.

They got:

• Blanket immunity
• Crazy HP
• Illogical saves
• Skyrocketting to-hit
• AC, which most of us eas forced to throw at the garbage because of it's new uselessness.
• Superiority in number
• AI

We got:

• Our brain
• Better spells damage
• More attacks per round

Guess what they nerf? Spells. They cannot nerf around combo chains because that'd be un-D&D like, they cannot nerf our brain... so they nerf spells. Tuth is, monsters and us are playing under different rules. Example: Enervation is a good arcane spell. If you'd like to PK, you might throw one to a mob and then PK him. Now, Doomsphere spam-cast it. I'd say he exploit us. He's got immunity to it (een if he's an undead, I'm talking about red named), so we cannot hit him with it... but he can and feels no shame at all in using it, knowing we cannot save or do anything about it but say "Borror's got 7 negative levels" hoping that the cleric will cast Greater Restoration on you before you die.. which the chances are slim to none.

My point is, I can only dream of reaching the to-hit and saves moibs are reaching... and dealing the same number of damage per hit they do. Well, maybe an intimitank fully buffed with bard love and arcane (and divine) buffs..... but that'd be rare... or should it be?

My point, the mobs and us don't play by the same rules. Try to narrow that gap a bit... and honestly, if there still is risk in a method, don't nerf it. If it's totally chessy and there is no risk, I can see why. If you may die anyway, why nerf it? It's the most efficient way. You're going to blame us for this? For using the game of the best we can? That's just plain stupid. We're going to use the best spell at the right moment, whatever we think it'll be. If you keep on using the nerf hammer, over and over again, you'll only make us angry. This time, sorcerers got the shaft. What will it be next time? Strategist? Nah, already nerfed red named. Rangers? I don't think ranged comabt could be any worse. More spells? Not much left...


Next time you think about a nerf, I've got tto tip in mind for you guys, just in case you're reading:

1. Think about the impact it'll have on the game, on the players, on their build.
2. Explain! Be very clear on the why of this change, what you felt it was doing. Why it was wrong. CK, obvious. Minos Legend bug? Good thing. Removing total safe spot in raid? Brilliant. Nerfing a nuke because you cannot program AI to make it work... your problem. Don't put it in here if it's not working the way you want it.

Wow, talk about a long post!!

[Big_Russ]

This isn't exactly where I wanted this thread to go.

[Borror0]

This isn't exactly where I wanted this thread to go.

So?