Questions about a 2-hand paladin build - a human with 18 strength?

[Ezekiah]

I'm rolling up a paladin to run with a regular group, and I plan on going the two-hand damage route.

Proposed stats are:
str 18
dex 8
con 8
int 8
wis 12
cha 16

I plan on taking toughness and the 4 toughness enhancements (as well as the save boost aura enhancements) to make up for the low scores, and taking PA, THF, GTHF, focus slash, and imp crit slash (plus toughness). human +1 to str and cha, paladin +3 cha, and 4/8/12 +3 to str. I plan to swing the biggest, meanest falchion I can find. I have zero gear, this is a fresh reroll on khyber


Are there any convincing reasons not to go this route? My thoughts were that the enhancements would make up for the hp, and of course I'd plan on wearing full plate, and rounding out scores with items, but a base str of 22 without items would be big fun. I'd just as soon not rely on any tomes (if a +2 drops, great). We will not be raiding - casual one night a week stuff.

[Blazer]

Pull that CHA down to 14 and push that CON up to 12. Starting with a negative to your HP is just plain silly.

Feats should be Toughness, THF, ITHF, GTHF, PA, and IC: Slashing. You won't be able to fit WF: Slashing since you need ITHF to get GTHF.

[binnsr]

I'm rolling up a paladin to run with a regular group, and I plan on going the two-hand damage route.

Proposed stats are:
str 18
dex 8
con 8
int 8
wis 12
cha 16

I plan on taking toughness and the 4 toughness enhancements (as well as the save boost aura enhancements) to make up for the low scores, and taking PA, THF, GTHF, focus slash, and imp crit slash (plus toughness). human +1 to str and cha, paladin +3 cha, and 4/8/12 +3 to str. I plan to swing the biggest, meanest falchion I can find. I have zero gear, this is a fresh reroll on khyber


Are there any convincing reasons not to go this route? My thoughts were that the enhancements would make up for the hp, and of course I'd plan on wearing full plate, and rounding out scores with items, but a base str of 22 without items would be big fun. I'd just as soon not rely on any tomes (if a +2 drops, great). We will not be raiding - casual one night a week stuff.

Personally, I would drop STR to 16 and shore up con and dex a bit..
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Also, falchions look cool, but great axes outdamage them by a significant amount..

[Ezekiah]

Personally, I would drop STR to 16 and shore up con and dex a bit..
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Also, falchions look cool, but great axes outdamage them by a significant amount..

Ah, I missed ITHF - I'm not that familiar with that line.

The thought about a falchion (or greatsword) is you have smaller crits, but more of them. This math makes sense for pnp, resulting in less "wasted crits" on weak enemies. I am unsure of how it plays out in ddo, as I have yet to get past level 3.4. The nice thing about this type of build though is I'm not tied to a particular weapon, just a particular damage type, so i can mix and match. I do prefer the appearance of a falchion, though.

The thought is, with something like a falchion and ic-slash, i'll see crits frequently, even if they aren't huge.

----

So, a vote to lower cha and raise con, and a vote to lower str and raise con - interesting.

I realize reducing hp right away is counterintuitive for a melee, but would I even notice with toughness at level 1 and the toughness enhancement at 1.1?

I guess it comes down to which will be worth more later, 2 str, 2 cha, or 4 -ish con (or 2con 2dex)

Er, hm, i seem to have counted my points wrong, too.

So:
16
10
10
8
12
16

H: PA
1: Toughness
3: THF
6: ITHF,
9: IC: Slashing
12: GTHF


I suppose I am not opposed to splashing fighter, either:
perhaps 10pal/4ftr
17
10
10
8
11
15

and take the paladin +3 cha, fighter +1 str, human +1 str, human +1 wis, and +3 str from levels, and I suppose I could pick up focus: slash, and specialization: slash, though I don't know what I'd do with the other feat. perhaps cleave?

[binnsr]

You can look at it this way:
-2 Cha =
-1 to all saves
less LoH power
less Smite damage
less intimidate (if you go that route)

-2 Str =
-1 to attack
-1 to damage

+2 Con =
14 more hp at lvl14

As to the 'will I notice' thing -- I don't think you really notice that your hitpoints suck until you play a character with better hitpoints and then come back to the one with lesser ..
For the feats you list, I would swap power attack and toughness around -- mostly because at lower levels, you feel the bite of the minus to your attack rolls from PA more.

If you want to splash fighter levels, I would go 3 fighter now (increase to 4 after the cap goes up again if you want), which gives you your 30-pt resists at pal11, as well as giving you the 3rd level fighter enhancements, which I think are pretty nice.

[juniorpfactors]

binnsr

has good advice......paly 11 fight 3.... pa should be taken later at any fighter lvl splash...with it on at lower levels you will miss very often unless you have a bard to buff....starting with a con lower than 12 is a mistake...i would find a way to start at 13 eat a tome+1 con ...that way you will be at 20 with a +6 item

[binnsr]

binnsr

has good advice......paly 11 fight 3.... pa should be taken later at any fighter lvl splash...with it on at lower levels you will miss very often unless you have a bard to buff....starting with a con lower than 12 is a mistake...i would find a way to start at 13 eat a tome+1 con ...that way you will be at 20 with a +6 item

regarding tomes, even if this is a 'fresh-off-the-boat-with-no-friends' character, you should plan your build around odd tomes and even items, because that's what's availabe at the end-game, as well as at the lvl20 endgame (at least that's what a Dev has stated previously). Just because you don't have one now, doesn't mean that you won't eventually have access to those tomes and items.

[Ezekiah]

So, I'm now to
pal11/ftr3
base:
15 str
10 dex
13 con
8 int
12 wis
15 cha

to end at:
20 str +3 levels, +1 ftr, +1 human
10 dex
14 con +1 human
8 int
12 wis
18 cha +3 pal

Any +2 tomes will plug right in, of course (this also lets me leave the +1 tomes for my less-planning-ahead-neurotic groupmates), as will +4 and +6 items, of course.


Also, according to my build calculator, enhancement attribute bonuses don't count towards feat prereqs. is that true?

[juniorpfactors]

i personally see no reason to have a wisdom of more than 9 or 10....you can pick up a +4/5 wis item anywhere to help you cast paly spell you only need a 13-14...easily had wisdom items +5 everywhere....drop wis to 9-10 or lower...keep str at 17

some may say thats not much mana...but reality is i just started a paly with 9 wis ate a +1 tome and already have a +6wis hat in bank so a 16 wis is more than enough and popx items are everywhere to give you more mana to cast 30 point resists

[Ezekiah]

that would mean...

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.70
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 14 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 12 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 254
Spell Points: 94 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 12
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             17                    22
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                9                     9
Charisma             14                    18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               0                     0
Bluff                 2                     4
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy             2                     4
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            2                     4
Jump                  3                     6
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I

Level 2 (Paladin)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Paladin)

Level 5 (Paladin)

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I

Level 7 (Paladin)

Level 8 (Paladin)

Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 10 (Paladin)

Level 11 (Paladin)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 13 (Paladin)

Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV

Any particular issues with this build? (some enhancements are just to fill space)

[Fallout]

The one weapon for 2H is the carniflex. Its good till L10ish. If you can get it at low levels, it will be your weapon of choice until the SOS.

[ErgonomicCat]

binnsr

has good advice......paly 11 fight 3.... pa should be taken later at any fighter lvl splash...with it on at lower levels you will miss very often unless you have a bard to buff....starting with a con lower than 12 is a mistake...i would find a way to start at 13 eat a tome+1 con ...that way you will be at 20 with a +6 item

In the pen and paper game, fighter 3 is regarded as being worse than only one other level, and that's fighter 5.

Are there any enhancements that kick in at fighter 3 that make it worth taking? If not, I'd drop fighter 3 for Paladin 12.

[Ezekiah]

In the pen and paper game, fighter 3 is regarded as being worse than only one other level, and that's fighter 5.

Are there any enhancements that kick in at fighter 3 that make it worth taking? If not, I'd drop fighter 3 for Paladin 12.

apparently none that I plan on taking - some of the more tank-oriented ones, perhaps.

[binnsr]

12   Paladin Concentration IV   Grants a +4 bonus to Concentration skill. 
         Action Points:     4 (must have spent 40 action points)
            Prerequisites:   Paladin Concentration III                  
12      Paladin Diplomacy IV   Grants a +4 bonus to Diplomacy skill. 
         Action Points:     4 (must have spent 40 action points)
            Prerequisites:   Paladin Diplomacy III                  
12     Paladin Energy of the Templar III   Grants an additional 20 spell points, bringing your total increase to 60 points. 
         Action Points:     3 (must have spent 41 action points)
            Prerequisites:   Paladin Energy of the Templar II                  
12      Paladin Extra Turning III   You gain 3 additional turn undead attempts per rest. 
         Action Points:     3 (must have spent 41 action points)
            Prerequisites:   Paladin Extra Turning II                  
12      Paladin Heal IV   Grants a +4 bonus to Heal skill. 
         Action Points:     4 (must have spent 40 action points)
            Prerequisites:   Paladin Heal III

vs.

3      Fighter Armor Mastery I   Gives you the ability to move better in armor, increasing the Maximum Dexterity Bonus on your armor by +1. You may still be restricted by your tower shield's max Dex bonus. 
         Action Points:     2 (must have spent 6 action points)                      
3      Fighter Flanking Mastery I   You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack rolls when flanking an enemy. 
         Action Points:     2 (must have spent 6 action points)                      
3      Fighter Mobility I   Mobility grants you an additional +2 Armor Class bonus while tumbling. 
         Action Points:     1 (must have spent 7 action points)
            Prerequisites:   Mobility                  
3      Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I   Gives you the ability to move better with a tower shield, increasing the Maximum Dexterity Bonus on your tower shield by +1. You may still be restricted by your armor's max Dex bonus. 
         Action Points:     2 (must have spent 2 action points)

The only reason that fighter 3 is considered a waste in PnP is because it is the first level that doesn't include a feat.
Depending on what you want to do with your character, the different enhancements available at different levels definately do play into what split you decide to go with..

[Slayer918]

Personally I wouldn't sepnd 10 aps for paly cha 2 and 3...

for those 10 aps you gain:
+1 to saves... your a palidan yours are gonna be high anyways not a huge deal
+21-24 points per LoH nice perk hardly necassary (equal to 3 cure serious wounds potions/charges per shrine if you take extra LoH)
-2 to hit on your smite evils (although your already at +10 - +14 so this isnt huge either as your base to hit first swing should be around +30 which is plenty to hit almost anything... let alone +40 smites... damage is (or should be) based on paly level not cha

Non of these scream out at me as worth the 10 aps but just my opinion...

I would put str over cha personally... you swing a lot more then you try to make saves so 1 extra hit over 20 swings on average and 1-2 damage (Since your THF this will vary) may not look like a lot... but it does add up...

And while yes falchions mathmatically do more damage in DDO they swing a lot slower then greataxes

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

For a build without any Tomes, and 2-handed fighting, try this:

Yes, it has more Dex than you can use in your armor, but it will help keep your reflex save up, and if you ever find +3 Mithral Full Plate or better, you will have better overall AC

11 Paladin / 3 Fighter

Level 14 Human

Stats:
---------------
STR: 17 + 3 (Levels) + 1 (Human Adapt 2 STR) + 1 (Fighter's STR 1) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)
DEX: 12 + 6 (Item) = 18 (+4)
CON: 15 + 1 (Human Adapt 1 CON) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
INT: 8
WIS: 9 + 5 (Item) = 14 (+2)
CHA: 14 + 2 (Paladin Cha 2) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)
---------------


Level Progression:
---------------
Level 1: Fighter
Level 2-12: Paladin
Level 13-14: Fighter
---------------


Feats:
---------------
1) Two-Handed Fighting
1B) Power Attack
3) Toughness
6) Improved Two-Handed Fighting
9) Improved Critical: Slashing
12) Greater Two-Handed Fighting
13B) Weapon Focus: Slashing


Hit Points:
---------------
20 - Heroic Durability
110 - Paladin 11 Base
30 - Fighter 3 Base
84 - CON Bonus
16 - Toughness
50 - Paladin Toughness 4
10 - Draconic Vitality
---------------
320 Hit Points


Saves:
---------------
33 / 25 / 23 - With Greater Heroism & +4 Resistance Item
---------------


To Hit:
---------------
14 - BAB
9 - STR
5 - Weapon
4 - Greater Heroism
1 - Weapon Focus
1 - Haste
1 - Rage Potion
3 - Divine Favor
4 - Paladin Attack Boost 3
---------------
42 To-Hit / 37 w/ Power Attack


Damage:
---------------
9 - Str
5 - Weapon
1 - Rage Potion
3 - Divine Favor
---------------
18 / 23 w/ Power Attack


Enhancements:
---------------
Fighter:
Armor Mastery 1
Strength 1
Critical Accuracy 1
Item Defense 1
Tower Shield Mastery 1

Paladin:
Attack Boost 3
Bulwark of Good 2
Resistance of Good 2
Extra Lay on Hands 2
Charisma 2
Energy of the Templar 1
Toughness 4

Human:
Adaptability 1: CON
Adaptability 2: STR
---------------

[juniorpfactors]

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning.....dump this for Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting


extra turning....i would never take it... for a paly.....I would take toughness as many times as possible

and in response for going fighter 3.....going forward fighter 4 at lvl 15 another feat(toughness#3)....at 16 probably fighter again...paly after 11 is very soft..unless they add alot more to the paly

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

@juniorpfactors - I would go as far as to recommend Level 15-19 all be Fighter, leaving only Level 20 as the question mark. Unless some DRASTIC changes are made to high-level Paladins (and Holy Sword is nowhere near enough), there are virutally no reasons to go beyond Paladin 11. I would say Pal 11 / Fighter 8 as the goal for Level 19, leaving a few options for Level 20.... I don't think Fighter 9 adds much for Enhancements, nor does Paladin 12... but maybe a single Rogue or Sorc splach might be in order for the Skill Points or the SP

[llevenbaxx]

I also just started a paladin 2 handed weapon character. I started with a 16 str but will likily be taking 4-6 levels of fighter to gain more feats and str. You have to remember, one undeniable fact of 2 handed fighting is that you will draw alot of aggro.

At low levels this will be a good thing as you can just kill everything all the faster. At later levels, without having a 40+ str you will not be killing things as lickidy split as WW but you will still be drawing alot of aggro. This is what lead me to lower str and bump up my con and will also be getting the WF con bonus.

With little room to get some of the tactics or other melee forms of CC you will have to do something to handle all the aggro. Just some food for thought.

[nbhs275]

str 18
dex 10
con 14
int 8
wis 10
cha 14


Don't take the two handed fighting feats, they take up too many of your limited feats. Go Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Improved Crit. And that extra human feat? Either get khopesh if you got em, because face it, you'll be using a shield more then you think, OR something like Skill forcus: UMD for the added bonus of high umd.