Bard/Ranger/Rogue

[jarlaxle_dourden]

Hi All,

Please provide feedback ... does this combination stretch any of the rogue or bard skills too thin ... in your opinion?

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nyx Leto
Level 14 Chaotic Good Drow Female
(2 Rogue \ 2 Ranger \ 10 Bard) 
Hit Points: 122
Spell Points: 378 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 18
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity            18                    21
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         16                    16
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    22

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               8                     9
Bluff                 3                     6
Concentration         1                     3
Diplomacy             7                    15
Disable Device        7                    21
Haggle                3                     6
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  8                    17
Intimidate            3                     6
Jump                  3                     5
Listen                1                     4
Move Silently         8                    17
Open Lock             8                    17.5
Perform               n/a                  15
Repair                3                     3
Search                7                    26
Spot                  3                    14.5
Swim                 -1                     1
Tumble                6                     7
Use Magic Device      7                    26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I

Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Ranger Hide I
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I

Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I

Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Elven Perception II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Ranger Swim I

Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration I

Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Heroism
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II

Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (2): Suggestion
Enhancement: Elven Perception III

Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Fox's Cunning
Spell (3): Good Hope
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II

Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Spell (3): Displacement
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Perception IV

Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Spell (4): Hold Monster
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

[Schmackdown]

You took TWF at level 1, when you get it at Ranger 2 for free.

Bow Strength isn't going to do much for you with a starting STR of 8.

You took the Rogue and Ranger levels early rather than spreading them out, meaning you can't capitalize on native skill point allocation to Search/Spot and possibly DD/OL.

I don't see what the levels of ranger are doing for you in this build. If you want TWF/Finesse I think you'd be better off with two levels of fighter for the feats.

[Thrudh]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting from the ranger levels..

You'll want Weapon Finesse at level 3 (I noticed you didn't take a feat there) Two weapon fighting is automatic for 2nd level rangers, so don't take that feat (or better yet, take the feat, and don't take two levels of ranger).

Build is fine... Bard/Rogue is a good combination (I have one myself). The ranger levels just don't add much...

Your strength is too low for Bow Strength to help much, so a free feat of two-weapon fighting is about all you're getting... Two more levels of Bard or 1/1 more Bard/Rogue or even 2 more levels of Rogue would be much more useful

[jarlaxle_dourden]

that I get TWF free ...

The ranger levels are mainly for the purpose of the Free Rapid Shot.

Bow stength came free and yes I would swap something else out in the place of TWF because I don't see this char deep into the melee much ...

Just using the bows as low damage debuffers (curse, puncture, wound, weaken, etc...).

What would you suggest instead of the TWF? Are the levels of ranger worth it for the rapid shot?

Thanks for the feedback.

J

[Impaqt]

Rapid Shot: The Speed difference isnt much.... If your dealing a lot of damage its nice, but hardly noticable for debuffing bows.

I would dump the ranger levels all together. Go 11Bard/3Rogue This will allow you to shore up your Rogue Skills, Open up Tier 2 Rogue Skill ENH, and give you another d6 Sneak attack damage.

[Zyklon]

I would also suggest dumping the ranger levels. While you also get martial weapons with ranger you get the main one, Rapier, with Bard.

Also, in my experience having two weapon fighting without the improved or greater two weapon fighting isn't really worth it.

-

[spifflove]

Fairly close to my main so this is from the horses mouth:

1. A drow ranger is inferior to an elf ranger

2. The ranger levels do nothing unless you want to afford shot on the run (which I did)

3. The two weapon fighting line is superior. You can use the ranger levels to justify the feat cost, if desired.

4. With a bard try to get to level 7 as quickly as possible.

8. You could add a Heavy repeater and some believe that rapid shot will help your weapon speed. Others doubt this.

9. Two weapon line = 3 feats, plus weapon finesse and improved crit pierce. Two ranger levels would allow the Repeater.

10. If I could do it over I would drop the Ranger levels and get more bard levels.

11. stats 9/18/7/16/8/18 or if you want a warchanter 13/18/7/16/8/16 plus power attack (again requiring the ranger levels to free up the feat)

12. Good luck. You will need it.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

Because I have a elf ranger/bard that I am building as well.

It has no rogue skills though.

I was designing that char as a virtuoso ranger/bard but as I was building the char I was thinking ... how could I do this and include the rogue skills?

Then the idea hit me to do the rogue/ranger/bard. I can see the problems already though ... not enough mana ... to-hit in the toilet ... not enough feats to do what I want to do.

I'm kind of agreeing with the others and droping the levels of ranger ... the rapid shot though eats up two feats as you need precise shot as a pre-req. That is quite painful to give up two feats just to shoot a now quicker ...

I'm not sure if this build is feasable in the end game but it is not too bad at the low levels.

J

[EinarMal]

My advice would be to ditch archery (as your main mode of combat) and just stick with Bard/Rogue/Fighter. TWF blows archery out of the water there is just no comparison without manyshot when you can actually use it. You can still use a debuff/specialty bow and have a good to-hit without Ranger levels or rapid shot. Remember you can haste yourself and fire plenty fast enough.

If you are ok with waiting until 15 for GTWF then a good split to level 14 is something like Bard 10/Rogue 3/Fighter 1. If you want GTWF at 14 you have to go Bard 8/Rogue 4/Fighter 2 with the last level at 14 in Fighter.

I have a simliar build going with a long term plan of Bard 12/Rogue 7/Fighter 1. This allows for MASSIVE damage output from the combination of TWF and sneak attacks. You also get sublte backstabbing II to reduce agro and a lot of good rogue enhancements. If you care less about damage output you could also go with more Bard and less Rogue something like Bard 16/Rogue 3/Fighter 1.

Here is my Bard of 10/3/1. BTW by going with the warchanter enhancement having 10+ levels of Bard still allows for good songs 7/6 at 14 and 7/7 at 20. That will be about equivalent to a level 18 pure Bard non-warchanter for reference (8/7).

(Drow Male Neutral Warchanter Bard 10/Rogue 3/Fighter 1)

Stats:
Str 16 (28 =16 +3 Levels +1 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (24 =16 +1 Tome +1 Enh +6 Item)
Con 12 (22 =12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 14 (20 =14 +1 Tome +5 Item)
Wis 8 8
Cha 12 (20 =12 +2 Enh. +6 Item)

Level Progression:
1-Rogue
2 thru 5-Bard
6-Fighter
7-Rogue
8 thru 13-Bard
14-Rogue

Skills:
Disable Device
Search
UMD
Spot
Perform
Diplomacy
Open Lock
Bluff
Jump

Feats:
TWF
Extend
(FB)WF Piercing
PA
ITWF
IC Piercing
@15 GTWF
@18 Toughenss or MT

HP:
88(Levels) +20(Hero) +10(Draco) +30(GFL) +84(Con) = 232 (Raged)

SP:
275(10 Bard) +95(Cha) +100(Magi) +40(EOM II) = 510

Enhancements (These are for 12/7/1 need to adjust for 14):
Inspired Attack II
Inspired Damage III
Inspired Bravery II
Warchanter
Rogue Sneak Attack Damage III
Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Drow Melee Attack II
Drow Melee Damage II
Rogue Dex I
Bard EOM III
Bard Lingering Song III
Rogue Haste Boost III
Rogue Skill Boost III
Bard Charisma II
Rogue Search II
Drow Serach I
Rogue Disable Device II
Fighter Toughness I

To Hit:
BAB 10
Racial 2
Str 9
Weapon 5
Song 7
WF 1
Focusing Chant 1
Haste 1
TWF -2
PA -5
Total = +29

Damage:
Weapon 5
Str 9
Song 7
PA 5
Racial 2
Total =+28 (23 Offhand)

Weapons:
+5 Holy Rapier/Treason

DPS Calculation:
Rapier = 1d6 + 28 +2d6(Holy) +2d6(Sneak) + 7(Sneak Bonus) = 31.5 + 21 (63 + 21 Critical) = (52.5*.65 + 84*.3) * (88/60) = 87.01

Shortsword = 1d6 + 23 +2d6(Sneak) +7(Sneak Bonus) = 26.5 + 14 (53 + 14 Critical) = (40.5*.75 + 67*.2) * (44/60) = 32.10

Total: 119.11 (This reaches ~160 once you get GTWF and 7 Rogue levels) and you will see a big jump at 15 with GTWF (~135 DPS).

For comparisons sake a max strength Bard with power attack and Sword of Shadows gives you around 100 DPS. So with sneak attacks this build would do 160/100 or about 60% more damage when fully built.

As far as agro management treason and subtle backstabbing will help in the long term. As will playing smart. This build is very much like a combat rogue with some added benefits to the group. You have enough spell points for buffing yourself and a few others as well as good songs. You also do top notch damage with/without sneak attacks. I would say though that this does require pretty good twitch skills to play well. You cannot just run into 3 mobs and start swinging away.

This is very much like an arcane trickster build with spells/full rogue skills/sneak attacks. You also get the added benefit of crowd control via fascinate and awesome song buffs equivalent to a 18 level pure Bard at level 20.

The biggest downside of 12/7/1 is no level 5 spells and greater hero. You will have to cast it from scrolls or get some grids. The problem is 14/5/1 or 13/7 results in -1 BAB which was not acceptable to me and 16/3/1 reduces DPS and the key rogue subtle backstabbing enhancements are not possible to take.

[hazur]

Greetings,

If you want to do some archery, bards can do that just fine without multiclassing! You miss out on a lot of stuff only going 10 bard. Why are so many trying to mix bards with rogues? I realize filling two class slots in one is great but, no matter how you slice it isn't it diluted?

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

If you want to do some archery, bards can do that just fine without multiclassing! You miss out on a lot of stuff only going 10 bard. Why are so many trying to mix bards with rogues? I realize filling two class slots in one is great but, no matter how you slice it isn't it diluted?

Regards,
Booser

No

[hazur]

Greetings,

No? You sure put a lot of thought into your reply. If someone is going 12 Bard/2 Rogue for the rogue abilities, how is that not diluting your bard abilities too much? You lose your top tier of spells, you lose songs, you lose enhancements, you lose SP, you lose spell DC...all to disable the few traps that can't be avoided by jumping and open the few chests worth picking that can't be knocked?

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

No? You sure put a lot of thought into your reply. If someone is going 12 Bard/2 Rogue for the rogue abilities, how is that not diluting your bard abilities too much? You lose your top tier of spells, you lose songs, you lose enhancements, you lose SP, you lose spell DC...all to disable the few traps that can't be avoided by jumping and open the few chests worth picking that can't be knocked?

Regards,
Booser

There are two reasons to multi-class, one is just to dip a level to gain something like martial weapons or two levels to get evasion. The other reason is to create a custom class that is not a Bard or a Rogue but something different. The question then becomes is that "new" class useful in its role.

Consider at 20 a Bard 12/Rogue 7/Fighter 1. What role do they fill. They have full rogue skills plus evasion so can do traps/locks. With TWF and 4d6 sneak damage + good rogue enhancements they do very high damage. The better class to compare to would be a full rogue. They can do the same traps, do less damage than a full out combat rogue while sneaking, but bring to the group spell buffing (haste, blur, displacement, good hope all extended) and as a warchanter very good inspire courage (7/7) and fascinate. That sounds like a very cool and useful new class to me. The benefit of going pure Bard is diminished greatly if you do not want to use the CC spells (which do require a significant investment to make effective).

With fascinate/inspire courage and extended haste that is pretty much the most desired Bard role in a group. At the same time you also can open locks/disable traps.

[hazur]

Greetings,

First of all, at this time, we can not consider level 20 characters. We have no idea what turbine is going to do with enhancements etc. at that point. Also, a 12/7/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter is not what you crack it up to be. 12 Bard you are missing out on -2- tiers of spells. Their inspire courage as a warchanter is nice, but a pure bard at that level would be even better, especially a pure bard + warchanter. They also are most likely adding DC checks to fascinate, if you want to speculate to the future, which means your 12 levels of bard self are not going to be fascinating much of anything. As for rogue abilities, you would not have max rogue abilities with 7 levels of rogue in this build. The main reason being, enhancements. Sure, multiclassing for fun is great and can create wonderful new and useful classes, however this is the bard forums, not the "new and exciting multiclass" forum.

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

First of all, at this time, we can not consider level 20 characters. We have no idea what turbine is going to do with enhancements etc. at that point. Also, a 12/7/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter is not what you crack it up to be. 12 Bard you are missing out on -2- tiers of spells. Their inspire courage as a warchanter is nice, but a pure bard at that level would be even better, especially a pure bard + warchanter. They also are most likely adding DC checks to fascinate, if you want to speculate to the future, which means your 12 levels of bard self are not going to be fascinating much of anything. As for rogue abilities, you would not have max rogue abilities with 7 levels of rogue in this build. The main reason being, enhancements. Sure, multiclassing for fun is great and can create wonderful new and useful classes, however this is the bard forums, not the "new and exciting multiclass" forum.

Regards,
Booser

Meh...whatever. The DC for fascinate should be based on your perform skill which will be maxed and has nothing to do with Bard levels if they do it correctly.

Fine look at Bard 10/Rogue 3/Fighter 1... they do more damage than any Bard and can perform the rogue function. They also can blur/displace themselves and haste the group. The also have good song buffs for the group. Sounds useful to me.

[hazur]

Greetings,

Yes, the fascinate DC will most likely be based on perform, however how are you allocating all these skill points to max bard skills and rogue skills? A 10/3/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter can not do more damage than "Any bard can". They have less BAB than a pure bard, and are much worse than just a 13/1 on damage. A pure bard can easily out-damage a build that is diluted with rogue if designed properly. Higher BAB, higher song mods, greater heroism, etc. are all things a straight bard has up on a 10/3/1. The 12/2 Bard/Rogue is pretty much the only Bard/Rogue multiclass that can be both an excellent bard and rogue, but even there you are in trouble with DCs, lack of higher level spells, etc.

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

Yes, the fascinate DC will most likely be based on perform, however how are you allocating all these skill points to max bard skills and rogue skills? A 10/3/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter can not do more damage than "Any bard can". They have less BAB than a pure bard, and are much worse than just a 13/1 on damage. A pure bard can easily out-damage a build that is diluted with rogue if designed properly. Higher BAB, higher song mods, greater heroism, etc. are all things a straight bard has up on a 10/3/1. The 12/2 Bard/Rogue is pretty much the only Bard/Rogue multiclass that can be both an excellent bard and rogue, but even there you are in trouble with DCs, lack of higher level spells, etc.

Regards,
Booser

You need to check your BAB calculations bro... and with warchanter a 10/3/1 Bard has songs of 7/6 compare to a 14 Bard of 8/6. Greater hero does nothing for DPS as it does not stack with Bard songs. I really wonder if you know at all what you are talking about.

[hazur]

Greetings,

What is your problem man? It seems all you do is argue with people on here. I noticed in other threads you are arguing the same points I am against you, how bards should be good at many things rather than great at few. I did forget that rogues and bards get the same BAB, congrats. GH does not stack with bard songs, but it lasts a heck of a lot longer and gives other good bonuses for melee. However, I do not believe you can get all of the enhancements to inspire by level 10 in enhancements. If you can, great, your design is top notch at buffing and being a rogue. However it lacks CC ability other than fascinate which people end up breaking with firewall anyway, it lacks higher end buffs and spells, it lacks song of freedom, it lacks spell points, spell DC, etc. None of which are crucial to melee, however a pure battle bard would be just as good (at least) and still be able to CC, etc.

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

What is your problem man? It seems all you do is argue with people on here. I noticed in other threads you are arguing the same points I am against you, how bards should be good at many things rather than great at few. I did forget that rogues and bards get the same BAB, congrats. GH does not stack with bard songs, but it lasts a heck of a lot longer and gives other good bonuses for melee. However, I do not believe you can get all of the enhancements to inspire by level 10 in enhancements. If you can, great, your design is top notch at buffing and being a rogue. However it lacks CC ability other than fascinate which people end up breaking with firewall anyway, it lacks higher end buffs and spells, it lacks song of freedom, it lacks spell points, spell DC, etc. None of which are crucial to melee, however a pure battle bard would be just as good (at least) and still be able to CC, etc.

Regards,
Booser

Unless you want rogue skills which is kind of the point. If you do not want rogue skills than I agree that a Bard 13/Fighter 1 would be a better choice. I don't like pure Bards because I like to fight and be as effective as possible. The easiest way to do that is with a two handed weapon and power attack if you also want to be a caster.

If you don't care about CC casting then TWF is a good option. It just depends on how YOU want to play. My problem is people who come on here and try and dictate to everyone how to play. Pure bards are great, so are many MC builds. You are implying that ALL MC Bard builds are inferior and a bad idea and they are clearly not in a lot of cases.

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

What is your problem man? It seems all you do is argue with people on here. I noticed in other threads you are arguing the same points I am against you, how bards should be good at many things rather than great at few. I did forget that rogues and bards get the same BAB, congrats. GH does not stack with bard songs, but it lasts a heck of a lot longer and gives other good bonuses for melee. However, I do not believe you can get all of the enhancements to inspire by level 10 in enhancements. If you can, great, your design is top notch at buffing and being a rogue. However it lacks CC ability other than fascinate which people end up breaking with firewall anyway, it lacks higher end buffs and spells, it lacks song of freedom, it lacks spell points, spell DC, etc. None of which are crucial to melee, however a pure battle bard would be just as good (at least) and still be able to CC, etc.

Regards,
Booser

BTW there are lots of other combinations that do not result in a lower BAB. If you want more Bard less rogue then 16/4 works out the best. That gives you evasion, 2d6 sneak damage, subtle backstabbing to help reduce agro and good rogue skills throughout. Rogue 7 gives you 2d6 more sneak and subtle backstabbing II. They really make a nice difference in the amount of sneak attacks you can make and lower the damage you take.