Einar's Bard Build Repository

[EinarMal]

After the great forum delete all of my Bard builds were lost so this is a combined re-posting of them. I've played various combinations of Bard characters for months now and these builds are based off of that and are the current versions of the Bard's I am leveling.

Any comments are welcome, builds are like templates so follow them or just use them for your own build inspiration. I just post them because I enjoy building them and hope that someone finds them useful and fun.

[EinarMal]

Triple B - Better Balanced Bard

Goals:
To do good DPS and be a top notch enchantment caster.

(Drow Male Neutral Spellsinger Bard13/Fighter 1)

Stats:
Str 16 (26 =16 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 12
Con 12 (22 =12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 18 (32 =18 +2 Tome +3 Levels +3 Enh. +6 Item)

Progression:
1-Bard
2-Fighter
3-14 Bard

Hit Points @14:
88(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +84(Con) = 232 (Raged)

SP:
350(13Bard) +242(Cha) +100(Magi) +100(Singer) +20(EOM I) =812

Feats:
Extend
(FB) Power Attack
SF Enchantment
SF UMD (Swap for GSF Enchantment @14 when you get UMD high enough)
IC Slashing
Heighten

Skills:
UMD
Perform
Balance
Jump
Diplomacy
Tumble

Enhancements:
Bard Inspired Damage III
Bard Inspired Attack III
Bard Charisma III
Bard EOM I
Bard Concentration II
Bard Song Magic III
Bard Lyric of Song I
Spellsinger
Lingering Song II
Bard Spell Penetration II
Fighter Haste Boost I

Spells:
1-Exp. Retreat, Hypno, Grease, Focusing Chant
2-Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Soundburst
3-Charm Monster, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste
4-Hold Monster, Ottos, Freedom of Movement, Cure Critical
5-GH, Mass Suggestion

To Hit @14:
BAB 10
Str 8
Weapon 5
Song 7
Haste 1
PA -5
+31 (26 PA)

Damage @14:
Weapon 5
Str 12
Song 5
PA 10
+32

Damage Per Second:
SOS = 2d6 + 32 = 39 (117+18 Bloodstone Critical) = (39*0.65+135*0.3)*(88/60)
Total: 89 (96.5 Bloodstone)

UMD:
17(Ranks) +11(Cha) +5(Gloves) +4(GH) +2(Singer)= 39

Hold/Otto DC:
10(Base) +5(Level) +11(Cha) +1(Item) +2(Focus) +1(Singer) = 30

[EinarMal]

Dancing Dervish

Goals:
This is the max charisma version of a TWF balanced Bard. To transform this into a max DPS build simply change your level ups to strength and adjust spell selection. This is an alternative to the better balanced bard and is probably a little weaker on paper but TWF is easier for a Bard to manage agro and other hidden factors. I am currently not building this build.

(Drow Male Neutral Spellsinger Bard 12/Fighter 2)

Stats:
Str 16 (26=16 +1 Enh. +1 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (22=16 +1 Tome +5 Item)
Con 12 (22=12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (30=16 +2 Tome +3 Levels +3 Enh. +6 Item)

Level Progression:
Brd. 1-4
Ftr. 5
Brd 6-13
Ftr. 14

Skills:
UMD
Perform
Diplomacy
Balance
Jump
Concentration

Feats:
1-Extend
3-SF Enchantment
5-(FB) TWF
6-GSF Enchantment
9- ITWF
12-IC Piercing
14-(FB)GTWF

Enhancements:
Bard Inspired Damage III
Bard Inspired Attack II
Bard Charisma III
Bard EOM I
Bard Concentration II
Bard Song Magic III
Bard Lyric of Song I
Spellsinger
Lingering Song II
Drow Melee Attack II
Drow Melee Damage II
Fighter Haste Boost I
Extra Song I

HP:
92(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +84(Con) = 236 (Raged)

SP:
325(12Bard) +210(Cha) +100(Magi) +100(Singer) +20(EOM I) =755

Spells:
1-Exp. Retreat, Hypno, Cure Light, Focusing Chant
2-Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Cure Moderate
3-Charm Monster, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste
4-Hold Monster, Ottos, Freedom of Movement

To Hit @14:
BAB 11
Str 8
Weapon 5
Song 6
Chant 1
Haste 1
32 (34 Backstabbing)

Damage @14:
Main:
Weapon 5
Str 8
Song 5
Racial 2
+20

Off:
Weapon 5
Str 4
Song 5
Racial 2
+16

Damage Per Second (Using backstabbing gloves and bloodstone):
Holy Rapier = 1d6 + 20 +2d6(Holy) +5 (Backstabbing) = 23.5 + 12 (47 + 24 Critical) = 58.12 (65.1 Backstabbing)
Holy Shortsword = 1d6 + 16 + 2d6(Holy) +5(Backstabbing) = 19.5 +12 (39 + 24 Critical) = 34.62 (39.85 Backstabbing)
92.74 (104.95 Backstabbing)

UMD:
17(Ranks) +10(Cha) +5(Gloves) +4(GH) +2(Singer)= 38

Hold/Otto DC:
10(Base) +4(Level) +10(Cha) +1(Item) +2(Focus) +1(Singer) = 28

[EinarMal]

BlackBard The Pirate (Revised)

Goals:
This is a TWF DPS with rogue skills build. I've decided to delay GTWF until level 15 so have edited the build.

(Drow Male Neutral Warchanter Bard 10/Rogue 4)

Stats:
Str 16 (28 =16 +3 Levels +1 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (24 =16 +1 Tome +1 Enh +6 Item)
Con 12 (22 =12 +2 Favor Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 14 (20 =14 +6 Item)
Wis 8 8
Cha 12 (20 =12 +2 Enh. +6 Item)

Level Progression:
1-Rogue
2 thru 5-Bard
6-Rogue
7 thru 12-Bard
13 thru 14-Rogue

Skills:
Disable Device-17 Ranks
Search-17 Ranks
UMD-17 Ranks
Spot-17 Ranks
Perform-15 Ranks
Diplomacy-15 Ranks
Open Lock-13 Ranks

Feats:
TWF
WF Piercing
Power Attack
ITWF
IC Piercing

HP:
84(Levels) +20(Hero) +10(Draco) +30(GFL) +84(Con) = 228(Raged)

SP:
275(10 Bard) +95(Cha) +100(Magi) +40(EOM II) = 510

Enhancements:
Drow Melee Attack II
Drow Melee Damage II
Bard Inspired Damage II
Bard Inspired Attack II
Bard Charisma II
Bard EOM II
Bard Inspired Bravery II
Warchanter
Rogue Disable Device II
Lingering Song II
Rogue Dex I
Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Rogue Haste Boost II
Rogue Skill Boost II
Bard Extra Song I

Spells:
1-Exp. Retreat, Remove Fear, Cure Light, Focusing Chant
2-Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Cure Moderate
3-Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Cure Serious
4-Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door

To Hit:
BAB 10
Racial 2
Str 9
Weapon 5
Song 7
WF 1
Focusing Chant 1
Haste 1
TWF -2
PA -5
34 (29 PA)

Damage:
Weapon 5
Str 9
Song 6
PA 5
Racial 2
27 (22 Offhand)

DPS Calculation:
+5 Holy Rapier/Treason

Rapier = 1d6 + 27 +2d6(Holy) +2d6(Sneak) + 9(Sneak Bonus) = 30.5 + 23 (61 + 23 Critical) = 87.96
Shortsword = 1d6 + 22 +2d6(Sneak) +9(Sneak Bonus) = 25.5 + 16 (51 + 16 Critical) = 32.65
Total: 120.61

Level 14 Skills:
Search:
17(Ranks) +5(Int) +4(GH) +2(Drow) +3(Boost) +13(Item) +2(Luck)= 46

Disable:
17(Ranks) +5(Int) +4(GH) +3(Boost) +11(Item) +7(Tools) +2(Luck) +2 (Enh) = 51

Open Lock:
13(Ranks) +7(Dex) +4(GH) +3(Boost) +11(Item) +7(Tools) +2(Luck) = 47

Spot:
17(Ranks) -1(Wis) +4(GH) +2(Drow)+13(Item) +2(Luck) = 37

UMD:
17(Ranks) +5(Cha) +4(GH) +5(7 Fingered) +3(Boost) +2(Luck)= 36

[EinarMal]

Warchanting Tempest

Goals:
Basically to be the biggest baddest TWF Bard on the planet. With 4 levels of fighter hit points are closing in on 300 and damage is top notch. At level 15 this build will take weapon spec for an additional +2 damage per swing.

(Drow Male Neutral Warchanter Bard 10/Fighter 4)

Stats:
Str 16 (30 =16 +3 Levels +1 Enh. +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (24 =16 +1 Tome +1 Enh. +6 Item)
Con 12 (22 =12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 10 10
Wis 8 8
Cha 16 (24 =16 +1 Tome +1 Enh. +6 Item)

Progression:
1-Bard
2-Fighter
3 thru 5-Bard
6-Fighter
7 thru 11-Bard
12-Figther
13-Bard
14-Fighter

Hit Points @14:
100(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +84(Con) +16 (Toughness) + 15(Fighter Toughness II) =275

SP:
275(10 Bard) +114(Cha) +100(Magi) +40(EOM II) = 529

Feats:
Extend
(FB) TWF
WF Piercing
(FB)PA
Toughness (Alt. would be stunning blow with weighted offhand weapon)
ITWF
IC Piercing
(FB)GTWF

Enhancements:
Inspired Attack II
Inspired Damage II
Inspired Bravery II
Warchanter
Fighter Toughness II
Drow Melee Attack II
Drow Melee Damage II
Fighter Strength I
Drow Dex I
Bard EOM II
Bard Lingering Song III
Fighter Haste Boost II
Figther Critical Accuracy I
Bard Charisma I
Bard Extra Song III

To Hit @14
BAB 11
Racial 2
Str 10
Weapon 5
Song 7
WF 1
Focusing Chant 1
Haste 1
TWF -2
PA -5
+36 (31 PA)

Damage @14
Weapon 5
Str 10
Song 6
PA 5
Racial 2
+28

Weapons:
+5 Holy Rapier/Shortsword w/ Bloodstone

DPS:
Rapier = 1d6 + 28 +2d6(Holy) = 31.5 + 7 (63 + 19 Critical) = 72.78
Shortsword = 1d6 + 23 +2d6(Holy) = 26.5 + 7 (53 + 19 Critical) = 43.48
Total = 116.26

[genericearthling]

i am thinking about building a bard but have not yet so please be patient with me.

why drow? none of your builds have 19 or 20 char to start and with the -2 to con i was thinking humans might do better.

thx

[EinarMal]

i am thinking about building a bard but have not yet so please be patient with me.

why drow? none of your builds have 19 or 20 char to start and with the -2 to con i was thinking humans might do better.

thx

Well for a "balanced" bard, especially for the TWF version both the cheap dex and cha buy is very good to have. Also the racial enhancements for rapiers/shortswords are also helpful when TWF as you get them on both hands.

For the rogue build you need dex, int, and cha so it is perfect for Drow.

Another big reason is that I do not have 1750 favor, I actually switched servers a couple of months ago. So without 32 pt. buys I found 28 pt. humans to be below that of the drow builds in these cases.

If you work out the stats with 32 pt. humans they end up being almost identical to the drow versions. You essentially get a free feat and +1 to strength versus drow weapon enhancements.

For example for a TWF Bard a 32 pt. human would look something like:

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 14

This is very close to the drow stat wise, slightly higher con and lower cha. In my opinion a 32 pt. human would be even with Drow or slightly behind depending on how much you value the +2/+2 to hit and damage from the rapier/shortsword enhancements.

All in all stat wise it is pretty much a wash IF you have 32 pt. builds. You could easily sub in human and make an equally good character, they are pretty much even. I personally like the +2/+2 for rapiers/shortswords when TWF so that to me gives the edge to Drow.

If you are ok with having a low charisma and totally writing off non-buff casting then a dwarf can also be a good choice for a two handed melee focused battle Bard.

[hazur]

Greetings,

Since you have been arguing with me on every other bard thread, I thought I would take a stab at critiquing YOUR bard builds. Enjoy.

The Warchanting Tempest:

You have no AC which is to be expected, you can use displacement for this, but only to a certain degree. Your HP while respectable at 275 is no tank HP. If you plan to be doing TONS of damage, plan to be taking tons of hits. Especially seeing as your charisma is too low here to do anything in the way of CC, not that you would have the SP for it (500 SP is pretty much a joke). You also can't heal yourself much with such low SP, therefore you become more of a burden on the cleric. You waste all your feats on TWF when you could use less feats, go THF and have a close enough damage output. You don't want your damage out-put TOO high, otherwise you will be getting hit too much. Also is 275 HP versus 247 HP really worth not being able to land any spells? You also waste a lot of enhancements getting a marginal amount of HP, and the toughness feat is just a total waste. Again, you could go with the 12 con and instead remove toughness and those enhancements and still be around 250 hp...HP is NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD. You also waste a lot getting to 36 to-hit, you could get around 30 and hit basically everything.

Blackbard the Pirate:

With 8 levels of bard, you don't even get inspire greatness. In fact, why is this even in the bard forum with 8 levels of bard? The SP on this build is even worse than the last one at 450, so you're not going to be buffing anyone but yourself, and even that is a stretch. Obviously you are not healing yourself here, guess the cleric gets to heal your squishy butt. You again have no AC to speak of, make it up with displacement. Your UMD is pretty weak as well. You again waste a lot of enhancement points for marginal increases to hit and damage. It seems like you are just making squishy DPSers who can buff themselves, not bards. Your rogue skills are pretty decent, but pure rogues are in the 60s for skills, not that you need it for the content now.

Dancing Dervish:

This one I don't mind too much. The spell points are up a bit so you can CC, but I wouldn't say enough that you would be healing much. At least your UMD is getting close...over 40 would be nice though. You have no mind fog (which would be good for a build with a low DC), but I guess you can use scrolls. Again no AC, and the HP is getting closer to straight bards.

Better Balanced Bard:

This bard build is probably your best. You really don't need heighten here, though there is a case for it. You can do fine without it, but it can help. SP on this build is much better. Power attack is really not necessary here. Notice your "balanced" bard's DPS is not that far off from your all out DPSer? And he can cast about 500% better. UMD is close here but would be nice to push it over 40 with skill focus. This is a prime example of what I mean when I say a closer to pure bard can do good DPS.

Regards,
Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

Since you have been arguing with me on every other bard thread, I thought I would take a stab at critiquing YOUR bard builds. Enjoy.

The Warchanting Tempest:

You have no AC which is to be expected, you can use displacement for this, but only to a certain degree. Your HP while respectable at 275 is no tank HP. If you plan to be doing TONS of damage, plan to be taking tons of hits. Especially seeing as your charisma is too low here to do anything in the way of CC, not that you would have the SP for it (500 SP is pretty much a joke). You also can't heal yourself much with such low SP, therefore you become more of a burden on the cleric. You waste all your feats on TWF when you could use less feats, go THF and have a close enough damage output. You don't want your damage out-put TOO high, otherwise you will be getting hit too much. Also is 275 HP versus 247 HP really worth not being able to land any spells? You also waste a lot of enhancements getting a marginal amount of HP, and the toughness feat is just a total waste. Again, you could go with the 12 con and instead remove toughness and those enhancements and still be around 250 hp...HP is NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD. You also waste a lot getting to 36 to-hit, you could get around 30 and hit basically everything.

I can heal myself between fights no burden here, just use pots/wands. Toughness gives 31 hit points so is hardly a waste. With close to 300 hit points and displacement/stoneskin I will hardly be squishy. THF does not give the same DPS especially without power attack. You are much better off thinking of this build like a Ranger that trades favored enemies and some BAB for better buff casting and songs. Think outside the box a little bro...

Blackbard the Pirate:

With 8 levels of bard, you don't even get inspire greatness. In fact, why is this even in the bard forum with 8 levels of bard? The SP on this build is even worse than the last one at 450, so you're not going to be buffing anyone but yourself, and even that is a stretch. Obviously you are not healing yourself here, guess the cleric gets to heal your squishy butt. You again have no AC to speak of, make it up with displacement. Your UMD is pretty weak as well. You again waste a lot of enhancement points for marginal increases to hit and damage. It seems like you are just making squishy DPSers who can buff themselves, not bards. Your rogue skills are pretty decent, but pure rogues are in the 60s for skills, not that you need it for the content now.

I am actually going Bard 10/Rogue 3/Fighter 1 and watiing to 15 for GTWF. The combination of Bard 8/Rogue 4/Fighter 2 was the only way to get GTWF with the current cap but I've decided to wait. You are way to caught up with current cap. Going Bard 10/3/1 would allow you to finish out with 16 Bard levels if you wanted to. See above on healing only a noob uses spell points to heal themselves between fights anyway. Not too many rogues can heal themsevles during fighting either....

Dancing Dervish:

This one I don't mind too much. The spell points are up a bit so you can CC, but I wouldn't say enough that you would be healing much. At least your UMD is getting close...over 40 would be nice though. You have no mind fog (which would be good for a build with a low DC), but I guess you can use scrolls. Again no AC, and the HP is getting closer to straight bards.

Gee I am so happy you don't mind lol. My DC is not low for a build that would fight at all don't know where you get that from. With the dex on this build if you wanted to "turtle" up and use a shield when needed your AC would be as good as any other Bard.

Better Balanced Bard:

This bard build is probably your best. You really don't need heighten here, though there is a case for it. You can do fine without it, but it can help. SP on this build is much better. Power attack is really not necessary here. Notice your "balanced" bard's DPS is not that far off from your all out DPSer? And he can cast about 500% better. UMD is close here but would be nice to push it over 40 with skill focus. This is a prime example of what I mean when I say a closer to pure bard can do good DPS.

You cannot call yourself a decent melee fighter without power attack end of story... Take out power attack and the DPS would drop dramatically. A pure Bard with a quaterstaff and no power attack would do damage around 40 DPS which is a fraction of any of these builds. Seriously post some damage numbers for a pure bard with a quarterstaff, no power attack, and 26 strength and show me how close it is.

Regards,
Booser

See comments in red....all of these builds are designed to be DPS Bards. If you don't like that then sorry don't use them as templates. There is nothing wrong with making a Bard who is weak at melee and does other things well. To me a Bard with a quarterstaff, 26 str, and no power attack is weak at melee and I have no interest in playing it.

For you to advocate dropping power attack and to not worry about hit points just shows how poorly you understand how to build a good DPS character and a good melee Bard.

[hazur]

Greetings,

You can most definitely build a good melee combatant without power attack. Yes, PA is a lovely feat, but not necessary. It is a marginal improvement in damage for non-THFers. I am not talking about healing between fights, I am talking about healing DURING fights. I have been putting my bard to the test quite a lot more in melee and you know what? DPS doesn't even matter in most quests. It is all about vorpaling/disrupting/banishing which anyone can do. And the kill count is mostly about how lucky you are with your vorps/bans/disrupts. I got the kill count from -3- TWF characters last night by 20 kills with just a plain old vanilla +1 vorpal longsword. Sure the DPS helps on bosses, but honestly, you are going to have fighters in the party anyway. If you want to play a bard, play a bard. If you want to be a TWFer, play a ranger, rogue or fighter. When people invite bards they do not expect self buffing DPS superstars.

-Booser

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

You can most definitely build a good melee combatant without power attack. Yes, PA is a lovely feat, but not necessary. It is a marginal improvement in damage for non-THFers. I am not talking about healing between fights, I am talking about healing DURING fights. I have been putting my bard to the test quite a lot more in melee and you know what? DPS doesn't even matter in most quests. It is all about vorpaling/disrupting/banishing which anyone can do. And the kill count is mostly about how lucky you are with your vorps/bans/disrupts. I got the kill count from -3- TWF characters last night by 20 kills with just a plain old vanilla +1 vorpal longsword. Sure the DPS helps on bosses, but honestly, you are going to have fighters in the party anyway. If you want to play a bard, play a bard. If you want to be a TWFer, play a ranger, rogue or fighter. When people invite bards they do not expect self buffing DPS superstars.

-Booser

Well maybe they will after they play with me If you are out killing DPS builds with a vorpral then I feel sorry for the crappy players you are playing with lol. Again don't tell me how to play my Bard. Bard's make very good TWF because their buffs apply to both hands and they are very capable melee fighters. I don't think you quite get it, I've PLAYED these builds and they DO work. Others on the board have posted similiar things as well. So until you actually try it honestly I couldn't care less...

This is the same BS battle clerics have to deal with. Just because it does not fit with how YOU play your Bards does not mean it is not effective. I like DPS battle Bards, and some of the builds above also are solid CC casters. Again, if you don't want to fight then don't but that does not mean that it cannot be done very effectively.

[Quartzite]

I'd say as the level cap gets higher and higher TWF bards will become even better. In my opinion there are 5 feats that are lovely to have for TWF- TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA and Imp Crit. On top that, Warchanter really is worth it, so you need WF: ?, and a melee build without Extend suffers a little. So that's 7 feats I'd LIKE to have on a TWF bard, not saying they are necessary, but definitely worth having.

Once the level cap goes to 16, a 14 Bard/ 2 Fighter will have 6 base feats, and 2 Fighter feats with a BAB of 12. I personally feel as if level 13 is pretty important because of the access to level 5 spells so I'd probably wait until a level 16 cap before playing a 2WF Bard. Until then I'm sticking it out with my THF WF Battlebard. As a Bard you don't really want the aggro from Glancing Blows, so by not taking the THF line you have a lot more feats to play with while still doing competitive DPS.

I'd personally be interested in trying a Dwarf 13 Bard/ 2 Fighter/ 1 Barb at level 16. Having 2 rages/ rest would be insane on a Str 2WF Warchanter.

[EinarMal]

I'd say as the level cap gets higher and higher TWF bards will become even better. In my opinion there are 5 feats that are lovely to have for TWF- TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA and Imp Crit. On top that, Warchanter really is worth it, so you need WF: ?, and a melee build without Extend suffers a little. So that's 7 feats I'd LIKE to have on a TWF bard, not saying they are necessary, but definitely worth having.

Once the level cap goes to 16, a 14 Bard/ 2 Fighter will have 6 base feats, and 2 Fighter feats with a BAB of 12. I personally feel as if level 13 is pretty important because of the access to level 5 spells so I'd probably wait until a level 16 cap before playing a 2WF Bard. Until then I'm sticking it out with my THF WF Battlebard. As a Bard you don't really want the aggro from Glancing Blows, so by not taking the THF line you have a lot more feats to play with while still doing competitive DPS.

I'd personally be interested in trying a Dwarf 13 Bard/ 2 Fighter/ 1 Barb at level 16. Having 2 rages/ rest would be insane on a Str 2WF Warchanter.

I agree the current cap makes it less appealing. Really until the cap goes to 18 when you could have something like Bard 16/Fighter 2 which would really start paying off. I agree on the feats as well you really need all the feats you listed and there are a couple of others that would be nice as well like SF UMD and Toughness (especially for a dwarf version). The problem now is people make such a big deal about not getting to level 13 at the current cap and it affects greatly people's perception. If the cap were 18 then big deal you wait another level or two.

Another thing to keep in mind is what will happen to the rest of the attack progression post level 14. Will we get more attacks? Will they put in another TWF feat that requires 16 BAB? If so then a Bard 16/Fighter 4 could still take that at level 20. That is the biggest unknown to me right now.

[Quartzite]

Yeah, I think level 13 is a "big deal" but it's not compulsory. GH is only +2 over normal Heroism. I'd argue that really, as long as a Bard build has Haste he can be effective. Level 8, 9 and 10 are all good levels- 11 is particularly underwhelming, so 10 can be a good place to stop. Level 8 seems too soon to stop, to me (Blackbard) but then again I can understand why you did. When you have Rogue levels, you need to plan around BAB. Losing a point of BAB at level 9 Bard or 5 Rogue is a bigger blow than to a pure bard who gains more from Inspire Courage through Enhancements.

I think for my THF Bard I'll be considering a 16 Bard/ 2 Fighter/ 2 Barb build. I think 16 Bard, 4 BAB class is the best combination of strengths.

I'm still not sure whether to take Barb or Fighter for the last 2 levels. 3 Rages/ rest with Warchanter and Barb Enhancements, Uncanny Dodge, 4 HP, +3 Fort Save; versus a bonus feat, 1 Reflex Save, 1 Will Save and access to level 4 Fighter Enhancements. I think it'll come down to the Feats that are released between now and 20- by and large I think the Barb levels provide more benefit.

[EinarMal]

Level 8 seems too soon to stop, to me (Blackbard) but then again I can understand why you did. When you have Rogue levels, you need to plan around BAB. Losing a point of BAB at level 9 Bard or 5 Rogue is a bigger blow than to a pure bard who gains more from Inspire Courage through Enhancements.

Yeah I've actually re-thought that build and I am going Bard 10/Rogue 4 to the current cap. I will try and update the build today to reflect the change. You "lose" GTWF until the cap increases but gain more Bard song power. It also gives a bit more flexibility long term depending on what comes out as the cap increases.

(Build updated to Bard 10/Rogue 4)

[hazur]

Greetings,

Something you should know about me - I have been playing this game over a year longer than you (since beta). During that time I have played every manner of bard imaginable, here is a list:

My first bard was a warforged bard, (name was Jukebox) because I wanted to make the name Jukebox. I got it to level 10 and quickly scrapped it due to low charisma. Now I think a warforged bard could be a lot better.

My second bard was a TWF build! AND a multiclass! (Name was Leet) It was designed as a 6 bard/2 ranger/2 fighter, and as of the current cap would be 10 bard/2 ranger/2 fighter.

My next bard was a pure level 10 (scrapped before first cap raise) (name was Fantastic) because I felt that my multiclassing wasn't working out. This bard was designed purely as ranged, and was rather weak in combat.

After this, I decided to go for a level 9 bard/1 fighter TWF bard (would be 13/1 as of current cap) (name was Incredible) and it worked fairly well at the time. However, it could have been a lot better.

After this bard, I again went back to a pure class bard (name was Watcher) - because well they are simply better at these current caps. Went straight 12 bard with it, was a dex build that used stat damagers.

After that I made a "Rogard" because they were popular. (Name was Hazur) I took that to 10/2 and scrapped it for reasons I have pointed out in other threads.

Next I made a THF build (Hazur again) that I took to level 12. I felt this did a lot better than the TWF builds with fewer feats.

And finally, I am at my current stage, Booser, my sex appeal build. Straight level 14 bard. Yes I realize I did not play all of these bards to the current, 14 cap, but I assure you I have had PLENTY of experience with MANY flavors of bards. Why do you assume I have only played one bard? My point is, I have tried and seen them all, so I have every right to state my opinion.

Regards,
Booser

[Scaramouche]

Er, I don't know if I'm missing something here, but in the Warchanter Tempest build, wouldn't your net to-hit buff from your song be +6, and your damage bonus be +7, not the other way around? And actually, without Bard 14, wouldn't it be +5/+6, not +6/+7? Not a big deal, just an editing note.

[EinarMal]

Er, I don't know if I'm missing something here, but in the Warchanter Tempest build, wouldn't your net to-hit buff from your song be +6, and your damage bonus be +7, not the other way around? And actually, without Bard 14, wouldn't it be +5/+6, not +6/+7? Not a big deal, just an editing note.

Well let's see a 10th level Bard with enhancements has +6 to hit and +4 damage. So with warchanter that would be +7 to hit and +6 damage. I think that is what I have but I will double check it.

[EinarMal]

Greetings,

Something you should know about me - I have been playing this game over a year longer than you (since beta). During that time I have played every manner of bard imaginable, here is a list:

My first bard was a warforged bard, (name was Jukebox) because I wanted to make the name Jukebox. I got it to level 10 and quickly scrapped it due to low charisma. Now I think a warforged bard could be a lot better.

My second bard was a TWF build! AND a multiclass! (Name was Leet) It was designed as a 6 bard/2 ranger/2 fighter, and as of the current cap would be 10 bard/2 ranger/2 fighter.

My next bard was a pure level 10 (scrapped before first cap raise) (name was Fantastic) because I felt that my multiclassing wasn't working out. This bard was designed purely as ranged, and was rather weak in combat.

After this, I decided to go for a level 9 bard/1 fighter TWF bard (would be 13/1 as of current cap) (name was Incredible) and it worked fairly well at the time. However, it could have been a lot better.

After this bard, I again went back to a pure class bard (name was Watcher) - because well they are simply better at these current caps. Went straight 12 bard with it, was a dex build that used stat damagers.

After that I made a "Rogard" because they were popular. (Name was Hazur) I took that to 10/2 and scrapped it for reasons I have pointed out in other threads.

Next I made a THF build (Hazur again) that I took to level 12. I felt this did a lot better than the TWF builds with fewer feats.

And finally, I am at my current stage, Booser, my sex appeal build. Straight level 14 bard. Yes I realize I did not play all of these bards to the current, 14 cap, but I assure you I have had PLENTY of experience with MANY flavors of bards. Why do you assume I have only played one bard? My point is, I have tried and seen them all, so I have every right to state my opinion.

Regards,
Booser

Without seeing the TWF builds I cannot really comment, were they dex based? That was all the rage as well back in the day. All I can say is I've played both two handed and TWF builds. I prefer the TWF build hands down, but only if strength based and focused on melee 100% a dedicated battle Bard. If you don't get the damage output up to good levels then it is not worth it. You also without GTWF cannot be a very good judge of the power of the build. It is pretty critical to take all the feats. From your levels I do not think you could have taken it. Not all builds are created equal especially low strength finesse builds I have tried that and it is not comparable at all to a strength based build.

You can argue DPS between the two and they are simliar, although with GTWF the TWF is higher and I've shown numbers repeatedly. The advantage TWF has is in versatility and ease of agro management. Even without the glancing blows feat it is difficult in a fast paced fight to NOT hit a target next to the one you are trying to hit. That leads to a lot more agro on you and a lot more problems. TWF just plays totally differently and allows you to flank and choose targets much more easily. The only way I can describe it is like a good rogue plays. The amount of hit points you need and the agro and hits you take is dramatically less than when trying to fight two handed.

The other factor is versatility. Getting 7 attacks to 4 leads to a lot of useful combinations. You can debuff, stat damage, dual vorpral, etc... and do much better with "effects" weapons. You also get double credit for seeker, backstabbing, vertigo, and weighted weapons. Just using 2 5% weighted maces can be very effective and about as good as two paralyzers at high levels.

I have tried both as well, I would suggest, if you have the time to build a 12/2 or 10/4 strength based TWF it might change your opinion IF you like to melee. They do not play like a traditional Bard, you have good songs and fascinate but do not cast CC spells. Is it better than a pure Bard? Well it certainly is better at fighting and pretty close at buffing, but not at casting.

What you fail to see is that a pure Bard is better for your playstyle apparantly. If you like to play a Bard like a min-wizard caster/healer then there is no reason to MC. Not everyone wants to play that way. A well thought out strength based battle Bard is a blast to play, but if you want to be really good at melee you have to sacrifice some feats and possible 1 or more Bard levels. That is the nature of D&D you cannot get something for nothing.

A TWF battle Bard requires quick movement and good twitch skills to play well. You have to play smart, use position, and choose your targets. If you just run in and start swinging you lose a lot of the power of the build. I have a pure CC Bard (deleted), the two handed better balanced bard above, the rogue/bard and a TWF w/ GTWF Bard. If built well they all are very effective. I personally think the TWF builds are the most fun to play as I personally like mixing it up more than standing back and casting which I get bored with. If you want to CC cast and fight then a two hander is the best way to go because the stats are easier and you use less feats. I posted the TWF balanced Bard as an alternate to the two handed one but it is generally weaker on paper due to the dex requirements and extra feat needed. There are the other hidden benefits though that make it a viable alternative.

TWF requires a lot of feats but if meshes well with Bards because you get double credit for you song buffs and it is easier to manage agro. You have to give up CC casting for it, but that does not mean it is "worse" than a pure Bard it just plays entirely differently. If you try to go half way and do both TWF and CC casting it is pretty difficult to pull off. You definitely cannot go dex based and skip GTWF and judge the melee power of the build.

For a generalist Bard the 13 Bard/Fighter 1 Better Balanced Bard I would put up against any build for the best well rounded Bard. The triple B build allows for good fighting skills with a two hander and top notch CC casting. For a full combat Bard the Bard 12/Fighter 2 or Bard 10/Fighter 4 TWF build to me is the best and most versatile pure battle Bard. As far as Bard/Rogues go you pretty much have to take 4 levels of Rogue to avoid losing BAB and TWF gives you the best return on sneak attacks and Bard songs. You will notice even without GTWF (@15) the Bard 10/Rogue 4 STILL outdamages every Bard build I have ever seen posted. Rogue 4 has a lot of other nice benefits as well like subtle backstabbing I and +4 sneak attack damage plus other nice enhancements and allows maxing of more skills. Once 15 hits and the Bard 10/Rogue 4 can take GTWF the DPS of the build is significantly higher than a two handed build and you get agro reduction enhancements and weapon (treason although will be harder to get now).

[hazur]

Greetings,

Your "balanced bard" build is not "balanced" at all. It is another combat bard with slightly better casting ability. While it is the best of your builds, no it cannot stack up against my build as far as being balanced. I designed my build to fill pretty much any slot but a rogue (98% of the time not needed). Your build cannot fill the hole of a cleric in top end elite content, mine can. Your build has to use up feats to make up for it's lack of spell DC, mine can hit everything easily without the feats. You will not be getting your top tier spells in the next cap raise, my build will. Anyway, there is no use arguing with you because we obviously come from two different worlds. I guess you ALWAYS have a cleric, wizard/sorcerer, tank and DPS to party with, so you just like to have fun with your bard. That is totally fine, however I have to PUG ALL THE TIME, so this is not an option for me. Enjoy.

Regards,
Booser