Player Character Balance

[Teh_Troll]

Idk about this, I find ac useful.

Do you play above casual?

[Teh_Troll]

So you're saying that a 12sec cooldown Recon SLA is worse than no Recon SLA at all? People are self-healing just fine with 12sec cooldown Cocoon and nobody said it's OP. For all I know, there will be people believing that a 12sec Recon SLA is still OP just because you don't need to sacrifice a twist slot to use it, or anything else for that matter.


I'm saying a 12 second cooldown on recon would be so bad BF would no longer be a viable melee race.

With a 12-second cooldown you're better off being a fleshy as the fleshy can still reliably keep himself alive with scrolls, SF pots, and cocoon. A BF fighter (no scroll mastery) hits himself for so little on a RECON scroll it's literally a joke, SF pots LOLz, you don't have a second healing option.

So yes, I'm saying your dumb idea would kill BF.

[Uska]

Do you play above casual?

It can be useful beyond that but not in EE for sure and rarely in hard.

[Teh_Troll]

Ranged only , yes, with occassional scroll or two.
Melee ? No way with Cocoon only unless you are super careful ( aka piking and let others eat the damage ).

this, but at least as a fleshy you have other self-healing options. A BF only has that recon SLA.

The SLA is needed in it's current state for BF to be viable any nerfing would make them a terrible choice compared to fleshy. It still should be done, but just keep it real and acknowledge you're retconning out this mistake.

[Uska]

So you're saying that a 12sec cooldown Recon SLA is worse than no Recon SLA at all? People are self-healing just fine with 12sec cooldown Cocoon and nobody said it's OP. For all I know, there will be people believing that a 12sec Recon SLA is still OP just because you don't need to sacrifice a twist slot to use it, or anything else for that matter.

The fact that you're, at least, admitting it's OP is a start, I guess. Now you just need to realize that doubling the cooldown won't kill the race at all, but it will give a sense of fairness among the races.

PS: btw, I would be perfectly fine with a refund and the removal of BF from my character building options now that I have the past life stacked x3 on my main toon.

If BF is removed as an option all past lives involving it should be removed as well and nerfing reconstruct is the same thing as destroying BF I don't find it really OP since if it was everyone would be playing BF only and they aren't.

[Hathorian]

PS: btw, I would be perfectly fine with a refund and the removal of BF from my character building options now that I have the past life stacked x3 on my main toon.

You are being very transparent in your reasons for asking for a nerf to BF. This is sad.

[Qhualor]

this, but at least as a fleshy you have other self-healing options. A BF only has that recon SLA.

The SLA is needed in it's current state for BF to be viable any nerfing would make them a terrible choice compared to fleshy. It still should be done, but just keep it real and acknowledge you're retconning out this mistake.

Unless you dumped heal amp, a second option is SF pots for melees. Why any BF or Warforged would dump it, I don't know. I know you still get a penalty from pos healing, it can be reduced to 20% in the BF tree. This is why we need repair amp items and SF repair pots.

[Holleyz]

Snipped
The only one of those I think should be nerfed is 10k stars. Rather see it work with shuriken than with arrows, but if it stays as is than it shouldn't work with manyshot or a decrease in effectability.

+To this--^--That is really all that needs to be done really.

[avepepix]

Do you play above casual?

Being a dwarf intimi tank with 156 AC and 108 prr if my memory dont failme. I can play EH with a hire, till a wizard arrives then its very very hard, so there are quest very hard, and others not so

[Roland_D'Arabel]

I want to really underline the advantages to buffing capstones, if the goal is to make as many things viable as possible:

(1) It promises few unintended consequences. You buff one build per capstone, and don't need to worry about interactions between different classes.

(2) It offers a non-nerf way to substantially expand viable build choice.

(3) It requires changing only one thing per enhancement tree. That's a low-cost, high-impact use of resources to implement.

(4) It's a very new player and casual-friendly buff, as pure builds are a common default option among them. Such players need not automatically have poor builds just because they don't know better than to remain pure. I don't generally think you should cater the tough-as-nails endgame to casual players, but buffing capstones lets you kill two birds with one stone.

I want to echo this and suggest taking it one small step further and buff the level 18 core ability as well.

[count_spicoli]

I'm saying a 12 second cooldown on recon would be so bad BF would no longer be a viable melee race.

With a 12-second cooldown you're better off being a fleshy as the fleshy can still reliably keep himself alive with scrolls, SF pots, and cocoon. A BF fighter (no scroll mastery) hits himself for so little on a RECON scroll it's literally a joke, SF pots LOLz, you don't have a second healing option.

So yes, I'm saying your dumb idea would kill BF.

Just comparing bladeforged to other iconic which are mostly superior to the other races how would bladeforge minus reconstruct sla be worse than any other race. You would still get big hp, tactics, healers friend or repair amp weapon bond and power of the forge. He'll the pdk action boost is just 20% dmg. Power of the forge gives you 20% dmg +4 saves and 15 prr. To me pdk, shardi kai and morning lord are still gimp compared to blade forge for melee. And if your a caster fearsome presence is -2 to saves that Procs on any spell you cast with no save. So for a wizzy ' s energy drain sla you get another -2 to saves tacked on. Bladeforged are op bro even without the sla construct.

[Thrudh]

Thanks for the most excellent post and I was VERY glad to read these...


Many players have urged caution with any changes, specifically to minimize collateral damage. As an example, if changes are made to nerf monkcher Furyshotters, don’t break monks, rangers, other Fury of the Wild characters, and all ranged characters at the same time. Favor the scalpel over the sledgehammer.


We’re thinking about the possibility of making some changes to how armor and shields work, with the goal of making medium and heavy armor more viable forms of defense in epic content. These discussions are at the most preliminary stages, but we’re aware there are issues here.

Favor the scalpel over the sledgehammer, yes! Make one or two changes at a time...


What’s specific items do players consider overpowered?
Major caveat: Anything considered overpowered by some is also loved by others. We’re aware of this. Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at. There’s quite a few other possibilities we might look at, but these were near the top of the list for discussions.
• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

Be careful with Ranged Fury of the Wild... Burst DPS is what makes playing an archer fun... Personally, I think you need to make 10k stars and manyshot work in a way that one character can't use both. Try just THAT change, and see how it goes.

[Holleyz]

Snipped
Right now if you are not bladeforged monkchers or shirardi especially a wizzy FvS combo I don't want you in my ee group. You will essentially be a drain. Especially any pure class you will be denied. Sorry it's just where the game is at right now.

...and here is the problem. The younger generation wants instant gratification. They want it all handed to them right now without having to work or wait for it. When we was kids we played a game from the start to the finish. Kids now they get a new game and the first thing they ask is:"Hey what are the cheat codes for this?" The bladeforged, monkcher, shiradi wizard and the new shadar-kai ARE the CHEAT codes for this game for THAT generation.

They want to play the game and zerg straight to the boss. Beat the boss down in their sleep grab the loot, get the xp and move on to the next quest so they can level up as fast as possible.
The people I'm used to gaming with is mostly in their late 30's to mid 40's these people actually like to SOLVE a quest or dungeon. They go in smash everything for ransack bonus, Do all the optionals. Then go and find the end boss.

I have a character on every server, I do a lot of pugging and also guild runs. What I have found in my own personal experience is that people that are in their late 30's to mid 40's are the only ones that are still playing Pure Builds. Yeah right now Pure Builds don't hold a candle to the Multi Classed but you know what? I bet we have more fun because each quest on elite at our level IS A CHALLENGE. Sometimes we get pinned down in a quest, out of potions, out of spell points, gear all broken, No shrine in sight and we have to sit and regroup and communicate and come up with a game plan on how to Conquer what is before us with what we have left. THAT is D&D.

[Cardtrick]

Just comparing bladeforged to other iconic which are mostly superior to the other races how would bladeforge minus reconstruct sla be worse than any other race. You would still get big hp, tactics, healers friend or repair amp weapon bond and power of the forge. He'll the pdk action boost is just 20% dmg. Power of the forge gives you 20% dmg +4 saves and 15 prr. To me pdk, shardi kai and morning lord are still gimp compared to blade forge for melee. And if your a caster fearsome presence is -2 to saves that Procs on any spell you cast with no save. So for a wizzy ' s energy drain sla you get another -2 to saves tacked on. Bladeforged are op bro even without the sla construct.

You sound like a person who doesn't play difficult content.

Healing amp is absolutely key to playing a melee if you don't have a good self-healing option. It is arguably the most important thing. Without reconstruct, bladeforged is not just worse than any other iconic race for a melee -- it's worse than any other non-warforged race.

[Grimlock]

Thanks for the most excellent post and I was VERY glad to read these...





Favor the scalpel over the sledgehammer, yes! Make one or two changes at a time...



Be careful with Ranged Fury of the Wild... Burst DPS is what makes playing an archer fun... Personally, I think you need to make 10k stars and manyshot work in a way that one character can't use both. Try just THAT change, and see how it goes.

Kiting is a problem. Archers doing a ******** amount of damage compared to melee is a problem. Imbue, manyshot, 10k stars plus all the other ranged enhancements all working together is a problem.

If you want to play a ranged toon - fine. You should be willing to accept that being ranged, it should take you a lot longer to bring mobs down as opposed to casters or melee.

[count_spicoli]

Snipped

...and here is the problem. The younger generation wants instant gratification. They want it all handed to them right now without having to work or wait for it. When we was kids we played a game from the start to the finish. Kids now they get a new game and the first thing they ask is:"Hey what are the cheat codes for this?" The bladeforged, monkcher, shiradi wizard and the new shadar-kai ARE the CHEAT codes for this game for THAT generation.

They want to play the game and zerg straight to the boss. Beat the boss down in their sleep grab the loot, get the xp and move on to the next quest so they can level up as fast as possible.
The people I'm used to gaming with is mostly in their late 30's to mid 40's these people actually like to SOLVE a quest or dungeon. They go in smash everything for ransack bonus, Do all the optionals. Then go and find the end boss.

I have a character on every server, I do a lot of pugging and also guild runs. What I have found in my own personal experience is that people that are in their late 30's to mid 40's are the only ones that are still playing Pure Builds. Yeah right now Pure Builds don't hold a candle to the Multi Classed but you know what? I bet we have more fun because each quest on elite at our level IS A CHALLENGE. Sometimes we get pinned down in a quest, out of potions, out of spell points, gear all broken, No shrine in sight and we have to sit and regroup and communicate and come up with a game plan on how to Conquer what is before us with what we have left. THAT is D&D.


Nice post. And ya sometimes that is fun.

[Holleyz]

Snipped
I think you need to make 10k stars and manyshot work in a way that one character can't use both. Try just THAT change, and see how it goes.

This really is all that needs to be done.

[rest]

Snipped

...and here is the problem. The younger generation wants instant gratification. They want it all handed to them right now without having to work or wait for it. When we was kids we played a game from the start to the finish. Kids now they get a new game and the first thing they ask is:"Hey what are the cheat codes for this?" The bladeforged, monkcher, shiradi wizard and the new shadar-kai ARE the CHEAT codes for this game for THAT generation.

They want to play the game and zerg straight to the boss. Beat the boss down in their sleep grab the loot, get the xp and move on to the next quest so they can level up as fast as possible.
The people I'm used to gaming with is mostly in their late 30's to mid 40's these people actually like to SOLVE a quest or dungeon. They go in smash everything for ransack bonus, Do all the optionals. Then go and find the end boss.

I have a character on every server, I do a lot of pugging and also guild runs. What I have found in my own personal experience is that people that are in their late 30's to mid 40's are the only ones that are still playing Pure Builds. Yeah right now Pure Builds don't hold a candle to the Multi Classed but you know what? I bet we have more fun because each quest on elite at our level IS A CHALLENGE. Sometimes we get pinned down in a quest, out of potions, out of spell points, gear all broken, No shrine in sight and we have to sit and regroup and communicate and come up with a game plan on how to Conquer what is before us with what we have left. THAT is D&D.


So what you're saying is that old people are bad at DDO?


Got it.

[Thrudh]

I'd also like to see Heavy/Medium Armor and shields provide some serious PRR. We don't need a lot of changes.... Go slow.

[rest]

I'd also like to see Heavy/Medium Armor and shields provide some serious PRR. We don't need a lot of changes.... Go slow.

The big problem with that is the diminishing returns for PRR. Once you're over 100, it's much less useful to keep stacking it than it is from 40->60 or 60->80 or 80->100.

[Hathorian]

Be careful with Ranged Fury of the Wild... Burst DPS is what makes playing an archer fun... Personally, I think you need to make 10k stars and manyshot work in a way that one character can't use both. Try just THAT change, and see how it goes.

That would be a massive nerf to monkchers (would kill their burst DPS)....

[Holleyz]

Kiting is a problem. Archers doing a ******** amount of damage compared to melee is a problem. Imbue, manyshot, 10k stars plus all the other ranged enhancements all working together is a problem.

If you want to play a ranged toon - fine. You should be willing to accept that being ranged, it should take you a lot longer to bring mobs down as opposed to casters or melee.

So the medieval English Longbowmen didn't bring down mobs faster than the knights on the field. As I recall most medieval battles was won because of the English Longbow. Go to a Medieval fair and watch a reenactment. You will see that the Long Bowmen would bring down masses before the knights or horsemen could reach them. Bye the time the knights and horsemen got to the "mob" there was only a few left standing thanks to the Archers.

[Holleyz]

So what you're saying is that old people are bad at DDO?


Got it.

30 to mid 40 is not old. Now anyone over 85 is old lol.

[count_spicoli]

You sound like a person who doesn't play difficult content.

Healing amp is absolutely key to playing a melee if you don't have a good self-healing option. It is arguably the most important thing. Without reconstruct, bladeforged is not just worse than any other iconic race for a melee -- it's worse than any other non-warforged race.

Ha ha I sou nd like someone who doesn't play the hardest content? If you think healing amp and cocoon are gonna keep you alive in the hardest content your not playing the hardest content. You know what does keep you alive tactics. Stunning and tripping them. You know what bladeforge get. Bonuses to tactics. Take your repair line and use reconstruct scrolls to fill in the gaps. Or healers friend and all the available heal amp **** that's out there and your not far behind a fleshie. And silver flame pots are not the answer to self healing. If you want to take 2 hours to complete a ee quest because you are cowering in the corner for 30 Se s every time you chug one then good for you. I don't feel that. As it is now I'll just stick to my bladeforge monkcher and throw up pugs for my ee quests so people can join and watch me solo it.

[Grimlock]

So the medieval English Longbowmen didn't bring down mobs faster than the knights on the field. As I recall most medieval battles was won because of the English Longbow. Go to a Medieval fair and watch a reenactment. You will see that the Long Bowmen would bring down masses before the knights or horsemen could reach them. Bye the time the knights and horsemen got to the "mob" there was only a few left standing thanks to the Archers.

You lost me at English.

This game is built on D&D. Casting aside the rules such that 10k stars, manyshot, and all the other imbues work at the same time is broken. Other players have obviously noticed this - hence the survey results. By your avatar it is clear to me you enjoy playing ranged characters and I am sorry - they are broken and need to be extremely toned down from where they are now.

[Sam1313]

[QUOTE=Grimlock;5302443]Kiting is a problem. Archers doing a ******** amount of damage compared to melee is a problem. Imbue, manyshot, 10k stars plus all the other ranged enhancements all working together is a problem.

If you want to play a ranged toon - fine. You should be willing to accept that being ranged, it should take you a lot longer to bring mobs down as opposed to casters or melee.[/QUOTE

Rangers=Airforce.
Fighters=Tanks
Clerics/FVS=Medics
Rogue=Spies, inside intel
Wizards/Sorcs=Artillery
Paladins/Monks=Faith
Barbarians=Grunts

So what your saying is that the USAF cant do a lot of damage to a large group in a small amount of time?

[Grimlock]

[QUOTE=Grimlock;5302443]Kiting is a problem. Archers doing a ******** amount of damage compared to melee is a problem. Imbue, manyshot, 10k stars plus all the other ranged enhancements all working together is a problem.

If you want to play a ranged toon - fine. You should be willing to accept that being ranged, it should take you a lot longer to bring mobs down as opposed to casters or melee.[/QUOTE

Rangers=Airforce.
Fighters=Tanks
Clerics/FVS=Medics
Rogue=Spies, inside intel
Wizards/Sorcs=Artillery
Paladins/Monks=Faith
Barbarians=Grunts

So what your saying is that the USAF cant do a lot of damage to a large group in a small amount of time?

Please. Do us all a favor and stop comparing Dungeons and Dragons Online to real life military units.

[Fhauvial]

Unless you dumped heal amp, a second option is SF pots for melees. Why any BF or Warforged would dump it, I don't know. I know you still get a penalty from pos healing, it can be reduced to 20% in the BF tree. This is why we need repair amp items and SF repair pots.

Just chiming in as a Cleric on this one: 90% of the BF I encounter have dumped heal amp entirely. I've stopped healing them at this point.

[Thrudh]

Increase BF Reconstruct cool-down or make it cost more SP, but don't take it away...

Be nice if halflings could get a few more Dragonmark heals to bring us even 1/4 of the way to BF Reconstruct's power... Maybe regenerating dragonmarks? Or just a few more.

[Cardtrick]

As it is now I'll just stick to my bladeforge monkcher and throw up pugs for my ee quests so people can join and watch me solo it.

What on earth? We're not talking about monkchers. They're so broken in other ways that the rules go out the window for them.

Bladeforged isn't even a great race for a monkcher, although there are enough benefits to the class combination that nearly anything can work with them.

When we're talking about nerfing reconstruct too much making bladeforged a bad race, we're talking about melee builds. Things like the Cetus or Zeus builds. Builds that actually have to stand in there and take damage sometimes. That's when healing amp or self healing is important.

(For what it's worth, I still think bladeforged do need to be nerfed. I just think it's crazy for you to claim that removing Reconstruct would still leave them as the best iconic race, when that's obviously not true except for sorcerers.)

[Grimlock]

Can we see a pivot table that shows players that have a Bladeforged character and want Reconstruct nerfed versus players that do not have a Bladeforged character and want Reconstruct taken away? I would hate to see a game feature removed because of resentful players who cannot afford to buy the Bladeforged Iconic Class.

[Dalsheel]

I'm saying a 12 second cooldown on recon would be so bad BF would no longer be a viable melee race.

With a 12-second cooldown you're better off being a fleshy as the fleshy can still reliably keep himself alive with scrolls, SF pots, and cocoon. A BF fighter (no scroll mastery) hits himself for so little on a RECON scroll it's literally a joke, SF pots LOLz, you don't have a second healing option.

So yes, I'm saying your dumb idea would kill BF.

Oh, I see. Fearsome presence isn't worth it. -10% slashing damage - meh. Extra PRR whenever dealt slashing damage - meh again. Power of the forge (aka 4-action-boosts-merged-in-1) - meh yet again... the list goes on, but you probably know all these better than I do.

You can pretend that Recon SLA is all there is to BF, but you're not fooling anyone. The truth is BF has a lot to offer to a melee build, even a Recon SLA. But 6sec CD is game-breaking and you know it.

[Sam1313]

[QUOTE=Sam1313;5302473]

Please. Do us all a favor and stop comparing Dungeons and Dragons Online to real life military units.

Gary Gygax helped form TSR. Tactical Studies Rules. Now correct me if I am wrong here but wasn't Cavaliers and Roundheads BASED upon English Warfare? Ok Cavaliers and Roundheads evolved into what is now known as Dungeons & Dragons. So I would think its safe to say then that the game is based upon Medieval warfare. Medieval warfare has evolved to the Military we have today. I'm just saying.

[Grimlock]

[QUOTE=Grimlock;5302474]

Gary Gygax helped form TSR. Tactical Studies Rules. Now correct me if I am wrong here but wasn't Cavaliers and Roundheads BASED upon English Warfare? Ok Cavaliers and Roundheads evolved into what is now known as Dungeons & Dragons. So I would think its safe to say then that the game is based upon Medieval warfare. Medieval warfare has evolved to the Military we have today. I'm just saying.

D&D was the building blocks for DDO. You probably could say when the game cap was 10 and we were all playing DDO 8 years ago hoping to get lucky and just pull a +5 longsword or a +5 set of full plate the game was pretty close to D&D, but that was then and this is now. There is no comparison between a fantasy online roleplaying mmo and the military. The fact you are comparing the USAF and modern day technology to character classes/roles in a video game has no bearing on this thread and is not relevant to this game in any way, shape, or form.

We are talking about the rules and mechanics of the various classes in game and discussing what makes certain enhancements, abilities, classes, or any combination of those entities broken and in need of redesign.

Back to the topic at hand - nerf monkchers. Leave Bladeforged alone. Make pure classes a viable option. Make it worthwhile to play a divine class.

[Fhauvial]

Gary Gygax helped form TSR. Tactical Studies Rules. Now correct me if I am wrong here but wasn't Cavaliers and Roundheads BASED upon English Warfare? Ok Cavaliers and Roundheads evolved into what is now known as Dungeons & Dragons. So I would think its safe to say then that the game is based upon Medieval warfare. Medieval warfare has evolved to the Military we have today. I'm just saying.

Dungeons & Dragons actually started as a Chainmail variant. That's where our AC rules, etc. come from.

[Sam1313]

[QUOTE=Sam1313;5302489]

D&D was the building blocks for DDO. You probably could say when the game cap was 10 and we were all playing DDO 8 years ago hoping to get lucky and just pull a +5 longsword or a +5 set of full plate the game was pretty close to D&D, but that was then and this is now. There is no comparison between a fantasy online roleplaying mmo and the military. The fact you are comparing the USAF and modern day technology to character classes/roles in a video game has no bearing on this thread and is not relevant to this game in any way, shape, or form.

We are talking about the rules and mechanics of the various classes in game and discussing what makes certain enhancements, abilities, classes, or any combination of those entities broken and in need of redesign.

Back to the topic at hand - nerf monkchers. Leave Bladeforged alone. Make pure classes a viable option. Make it worthwhile to play a divine class.

Well f@$% me. I thought I was playing Dungeons & Dragons? So could you point me in the right direction to where I can go and actually play the REAL Dungeons & Dragons online because THIS thing that has all the artwork and even the titles and logos evidently isn't the real one. Doesn't anyone care about the core anymore? You know the ROOTS of the game? loyalty? Staying true to the original? Last post in here promise.

[Grimlock]

[QUOTE=Grimlock;5302491]

Well f@$% me. I thought I was playing Dungeons & Dragons? So could you point me in the right direction to where I can go and actually play the REAL Dungeons & Dragons online because THIS thing that has all the artwork and even the titles and logos evidently isn't the real one. Doesn't anyone care about the core anymore? You know the ROOTS of the game? loyalty? Staying true to the original? Last post in here promise.

Sorry pilgrim, but that ship has sailed.

[Bargol]

If bladeforge are nerfed in any way....

Turbine should refund everyone who purchased the class their money back.

bladeforge were designed, implemented, tested on mournlands, tested on lamania, and have been on live awhile. Many people bought the class purely for this ability since turbine broke warforge class for anything but arcanes.

If the recon was really all that powerful it would have come up before now.

To many low skill people cry OP on this forum when they just don't understand. A toon with umd, high heal amp, and an good concentration can scroll heal themselves in EE easily, any character with high heal amp and cocoon can heal themselves very well in EE. The handful of recons a bladforge gets (unless bladeforge arcane / divine) is not that overpowered. Stating they can just drink mana pots to get more recons is not a valid argument since any bluebar can do the same thing to pot thru content.

The recon on bladeforge is a strong ability, but instead of nerfing it why not really look at why the handful of self healing options are strong and why most flock to these few options.

..and any fansbois coming along saying I just don't want my OP build etc changed....its not that. I don't want to be subject to another bait and switch by the devs.

[Hoglum]

We like being D&D. We are unlikely to significantly alter or remove core feats or abilities from classes or races.

Evasion is probably the biggest single draw for taking 2 Rogue or Monk levels. However, we may think about how common Reflex saving throws are vs. other saving throws, and other no-save effects that feel fair for monsters and players both. This would be a long-reaching goal, and would need to be made in concert with other changes, such as making sure that players aren’t simply dying, if Evasion was the only thing keeping most characters alive.


I find this frightening. There seem to already be too many "no-save effects" in this game. You say this right after stating you like being D&D. I can see spreading out the types of saving throws but simply by-passing them isn't fair either to monster or players.

I'm not entirely aware of everything in game that do or don't have saves but I can say for sure I've been SSSSLLLOOOOWWWWED every single time I've ever walked through a spell ward trap. Then, I can't even tumble to get out of the fire/poison/whatever.

There are also things like "nerve venom" - no save - works on everything. Undead too?

We also have DODGE now as a %. What happened to the monsters "AIM" ability?

If you like being D&D, please try to at least keep the mechanics in the spirit of D&D. I get it that some things should change for a video game but doing things like eliminating saves over time doesn't sound cool at all. I drank a potion of neutralize poison not too long ago and ran through a poison trap. The potion said I had 15 seconds or so of immunity - I didn't. The poison got me.

It seems to me a good bit of the imbalances causing some trouble are due to straying away from the roots of this game - not from using the guiding principles of D&D to take it to a higher level. I still like the game & a lot of what you all have done with it but the obsession with big numbers & cramming desired effects onto players (&monsters) seems to be causing a lot of this.

[Grimlock]

If bladeforge are nerfed in any way....

Turbine should refund everyone who purchased the class their money back.

bladeforge were designed, implemented, tested on mournlands, tested on lamania, and have been on live awhile. Many people bought the class purely for this ability since turbine broke warforge class for anything but arcanes.

If the recon was really all that powerful it would have come up before now.

To many low skill people cry OP on this forum when they just don't understand. A toon with umd, high heal amp, and an good concentration can scroll heal themselves in EE easily, any character with high heal amp and cocoon can heal themselves very well in EE. The handful of recons a bladforge gets (unless bladeforge arcane / divine) is not that overpowered. Stating they can just drink mana pots to get more recons is not a valid argument since any bluebar can do the same thing to pot thru content.

The recon on bladeforge is a strong ability, but instead of nerfing it why not really look at why the handful of self healing options are strong and why most flock to these few options.

..and any fansbois coming along saying I just don't want my OP build etc changed....its not that. I don't want to be subject to another bait and switch by the devs.

^^ This.

Players have spent Turbine Points to purchase this special Iconic Class. I see no reason to touch it or modify it at all.

[Hathorian]

So the medieval English Longbowmen didn't bring down mobs faster than the knights on the field. As I recall most medieval battles was won because of the English Longbow. Go to a Medieval fair and watch a reenactment. You will see that the Long Bowmen would bring down masses before the knights or horsemen could reach them. Bye the time the knights and horsemen got to the "mob" there was only a few left standing thanks to the Archers.

This has nothing to do with anything.

[BigErkyKid]

I play a BF 14 wiz/4 fvs/2 monk shiradi, with 18 past lives and 9 epic lives and best geared.

Bladeforged= recon sla,

Shiradi arcane caster offers= better dps than any other casters when saves matter
= stay ranged
= best saves (thanks to the ease of multiclass 2 monk/2 pal with little opportunity cost)
= not affected by monster saves at all
= occasional tea time

In essence, with no real trade-offs Shiradi arcane caster gets:

= top notch dps
= best defense
= self healing
= best sustainability (thanks to the ease of multiclass 2-4 fvs with little opportunity cost)
= shiradi arcane requires little player skills which makes it a no brainer cookie cutter and it is way too effective than it should be.


I agree that with a shiradi multiclass sorc you can be a good addition to a party regardless of gear, past lifes or what not.

Get a spam machine 14/4/2 and you don't need to manage SP, just stay away from the mobs and you will be fine. Displacement and kiting to avoid damage and reconstruct quickened in case you get an accidental hit.

To be a good / reasonable DC caster (nuker or not) you need top gear and past lifes. A lot of both. And to know very well how to manage SP, because basically you are burning your SP bar. Check DrPepper's videos to see a good DC nuker sorc in action.

Truth is, to me this seems broken. No combination should be as good right out of the box.

PS - I don't think that monkcher is much more skill/gear intensive. Copy a build, get a pinion from a raider's box and good to go.

[Bargol]

Oh, I see. Fearsome presence isn't worth it. -10% slashing damage - meh. Extra PRR whenever dealt slashing damage - meh again. Power of the forge (aka 4-action-boosts-merged-in-1) - meh yet again... the list goes on, but you probably know all these better than I do.

You can pretend that Recon SLA is all there is to BF, but you're not fooling anyone. The truth is BF has a lot to offer to a melee build, even a Recon SLA. But 6sec CD is game-breaking and you know it.

Why are you all butt hurt over this? Its not game breaking. It doesn't make your loot less. It takes nothing away from you. Bladeforge was clearly meant as a melee class. Melees in general need help in EE. The problem isn't bladeforge it instead lies with mob CR, mob HP, mob melee damage, and saves in EE. Combine that with the fact pure builds are dead because being pure is a net power loss and we have the current environment where good players use bladforge so they can enjoy being a melee in EE and bad players cry and point nerf because they don't understand.

[Mercureal]

So what you're saying is that old people are bad at DDO?


Got it.

And, I believe, that those rotten kids should get off of his/her lawn :)

[Teh_Troll]

That would be a massive nerf to monkchers (would kill their burst DPS)....

Good.

[Portalcat]

Do you play above casual?

Clearly, you've never seen a monk with 9 martial past lives.

[snape7792]

Just a few questions and comments about survey results

Wizard in heroic levels I would agree but once you hit epic's, unless your playing a FoTM build Ie: Shiradi. Wizards are far from being top DPS
https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/ClassPowerAverages.png

How Just How did Magister not claim the bottom spot here its all but useless
https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/EpicDestinyPowerAverages.png

[Alfhild]

PS - I don't think that monkcher is much more skill/gear intensive. Copy a build, get a pinion from a raider's box and good to go.
Out of curiosity, how does the DPS on your two monkchers compare?
I mean you obviously have a Monkcher with the 23 STR for OC, the 21 DEX for CA, the sustainable WIS of 40+ as well as the high CHA to use your pally splash, twisted Bane of Undeath Divine Might and get your UMD high enough to use for tensers/heal without gear swapping, as well as your 3 Ranger PLs.
How does that compare to your 28pt 1st life dex to damage Elf?
I would be interested in you posting videos of each against a test dummy to assess the possible disparity in DPS.

[Chaimberland]

^^ This.

Players have spent Turbine Points to purchase this special Iconic Class. I see no reason to touch it or modify it at all.

100% agree. I'm one of the people who spent real life money for this Iconic Class. I want what I paid for. Please leave it as it is.

[HatsuharuZ]

So the medieval English Longbowmen didn't bring down mobs faster than the knights on the field. As I recall most medieval battles was won because of the English Longbow. Go to a Medieval fair and watch a reenactment. You will see that the Long Bowmen would bring down masses before the knights or horsemen could reach them. Bye the time the knights and horsemen got to the "mob" there was only a few left standing thanks to the Archers.

I don't think they did any of that while running. I doubt even more that any of that was done while running backwards. :P

[Grimlock]

Out of curiosity, how does the DPS on your two monkchers compare?
I mean you obviously have a Monkcher with the 23 STR for OC, the 21 DEX for CA, the sustainable WIS of 40+ as well as the high CHA to use your pally splash, twisted Bane of Undeath Divine Might and get your UMD high enough to use for tensers/heal without gear swapping, as well as your 3 Ranger PLs.
How does that compare to your 28pt 1st life dex to damage Elf?
I would be interested in you posting videos of each against a test dummy to assess the possible disparity in DPS.

Wow he has all of that since starting in January of this year? How can I be that awesome?

[Qhualor]

If bladeforge are nerfed in any way....

Turbine should refund everyone who purchased the class their money back.

I can't agree with this. As a VIP I could say the same exact thing about every class. I've invested real money making my characters powerful and than over the years watch them get nerfed in some form or fashion. Same with any loot that I've seen get nerfed and become useless.

There is lots of confusion with reconstruct and people are generalizing when they should be more specific. Reconstruct for melees doesn't need to be changed. Reconstruct for casters, maybe or maybe not. I can't comment on that since I don't play them, but what from what I have heard and read it does seem OP. The name of the thread is character balance and if that means a pay for class gets nocjed down a notch to be more in line with other classes than that's a good thing in my book, not a bad thing. I really can't stand entitlement issues when DDO has been constantly changing since the beginning and we all know this.

[mons]

You have asked us what classes are overpowered yet did not clarify "multiclass" as thats where the OP issue lies along with ED's accessabilty and Enhancement pass.

Numerous people have mentioned Pure builds not being upto par with the OP multiclass versions yet you fail to mention/discuss/acknowledge the existence of said issue.

Perhaps asking:

How many of you play a Pure Class 1-20 - 20-28?

Would you play a Pure Class 1-20 - 20-28 if the Capstone was enhanced tenfold?

Has anyone tried playing a Pure dc Artie in EE content?

Has anyone tried melee'ing as a Pure Barbarian in a BYOH group doing EE content?

How many out there can rock it with a Pure Bard doing CC/dps/heals in EE Content? (yes, I know a few who can for those who were about to go off)

How many Pure Paladin's out there take multiple Toughness feats because it boosts their confidence of survival?

Dont get me wrong, I love multiclassing as it makes a character more diverse/sufficient but thats where it needs to end, to gain something benefical, something in turn needs to be sacrificed.

[sephiroth1084]

A compilation of some main points we’ve gathered from your feedback
The presumption is that most comments are about Epic Elite, as explicitly mentioned by many players.
While this is true, I want to make sure that you've acknowledged that not all of the concerns are EE specific. In particular, the problems with barbarians are present during heroic levels (the more popular ways to achieve a barbarian past life is to work in 6-10 levels of bard, or cleric for Ameliorating Strike), and barbarians have a tough time even in EH if the group doesn't have a healer.


For most characters, it’s hard to stay alive unless you avoid damage entirely.
• Melee monsters hit very hard. This pushes towards playing ranged characters to avoid monster melee damage.
• The most dangerous ranged enemies tend to be casters using spells that can be avoided with Reflex saving throws, which makes Evasion the best way to mitigate ranged damage.
What’s going on with monsters?
• Damage per hit from melee monsters is very high, even if you are building to mitigate it.
o It may be OK to hit this hard against robe-wearing arcane casters, but characters should be able to greatly reduce this damage with medium or heavy armor, appropriate feats, enhancements, destiny choices, and other itemization.
• Some other statistics may need looking at for Monsters, including hit points, saving throws, and the DCs of monster abilities.
You didn't mention it at all in this reply, specifically, so I just want to make sure that you're seeing and acknowledging the multitude of comments indicating that the changes the devs made to the AC and to-hit mechanics back around MotU are problematic, and that the ineffectiveness of AC plays a strong role in why being in melee in tough content is a death sentence, and why building to stand up to that onslaught just doesn't work.

I'll reiterate that one of the major contributing factors to that problem, is that, for whatever reason, monster to-hit bonuses skyrocket in high level content, and especially Epic Elite, beyond anything that is reasonable for players to achieve on their AC. This doesn't serve much purpose, since it isn't actually making the game more difficult in a meaningful way, but rather simply invalidating certain character choices--it does nothing to punish the characters that are strongest earlier in the game, or in easier content, because they probably are getting hit all the time in that content anyway. Most characters don't care about AC, even after your changes, in easier content, because they can simply take the hits/heal through them with scrolls/Cocoon/a hireling.


Multiclassing (ignoring Enhancements)
This could be another entire discussion. But many players thought it was crazy that multiclassing wasn’t the forefront of the discussion, so let’s talk about it.

We like being D&D. We are unlikely to significantly alter or remove core feats or abilities from classes or races.

Evasion is probably the biggest single draw for taking 2 Rogue or Monk levels. However, we may think about how common Reflex saving throws are vs. other saving throws, and other no-save effects that feel fair for monsters and players both. This would be a long-reaching goal, and would need to be made in concert with other changes, such as making sure that players aren’t simply dying, if Evasion was the only thing keeping most characters alive.
Would you consider adding some new class features? Some classes could really use some additions being made at their back end.

As has been suggested many times in the past, a couple of ways ot try and balance the /2 rogue or monk splash for some characters would be a two-fold change: first, capstones need to be much stronger for many classes (the changes you made to the Mechanic and Acrobat capstones recently were steps in the right direction), and allowing pure-classed level 20 characters to take tier 5 enhancements in more than one of their trees. Right now, say for paladin, sure, the trees are expensive on their own, but if you aren't interested in spending 50 or 60 AP in one of your two Paladin trees, staying pure looks incredibly unattractive, because you have to choose between the tier 5 stuff in Defender and the tier 5 stuff in KotC. Making this change would be helpful, should be fairly quick and easy, and, for most builds, isn't going to represent too big a jump in power (cleric and wizard are probably the biggest exceptions).


Multiclassing and Enhancement Trees
The enhancement pass in Update 19 certainly affected multiclassing. As a matter of learning from history, here’s some reasons why, which we were mostly aware of at the time:
• Frontloading and Minimizing changes to characters: Many popular & powerful abilities are “front-loaded”; they are on low tiers in the enhancement trees. This was very consciously done so that most characters could still get most of what they desired without much hassle. We knew this would incentivize multiclassing, but decided that was an acceptable cost. Even with this, during the enhancement pass there was a great deal of outcry. This is something we could make incremental changes to affect, but each change would probably make some subset of players upset, and we’re in no hurry to revamp everything and move everything around. (Giant tangential discussion for another time or place: “Class” enhancement trees aren’t a simple solution to this.)
• Number of enhancement trees: A major part of the original design (intended to present choice as well as help balance multiclass builds vs. pure builds) was the limit of 3 enhancement trees. Yes, you could still make a Henshin Mystic + Thief Acrobat, but you’d have to make meaningful choices and give things up to get them. Multiclassing is still clearly an increase in power (you get the “best” 3 trees out of 6-9, instead of just 3), but not as much as it is with 6 class trees. Essentially, we changed this due to feedback at the time, knowing it would help lead to the rise of multiclass characters. This is one of those places where we had a vision but it simply wasn’t accepted by the community at-large (which is not to place the blame on anyone.) We try to strike a balance between design considerations and the desires of the people who play our game, so we changed this to 6 class trees.
• Class Level Requirements: The U18 Enhancements largely required 6/12/18 class levels to get “the good stuff”. Both internally amongst the design team and publicly amongst the players, during the Enhancement pass a great variety of class level restrictions were proposed for the 5-tier trees we have now. These included some very strong calls for 1/3/6/12/28 (similar to the old system), all the way down to not requiring any class levels at all (essentially just requiring access to the tree). I’ll take personal responsibility for fighting for the 1/2/3/4/5 system we have today, which was for the goal of meaningful choices along with interesting possible builds. Instead of nearly every build being 20 or 18/2 or maybe 12/6/2, there’s a much wider variety of builds that players consider and actually take. Along with the third Core enhancement requiring level 6, there’s at least some real reasons to want anywhere from 1-6 class levels at least. And there are definitely some builds that splash 2/3/4 levels for specific enhancements and synergies. While these synergies do provide extra power, they also provide a much wider array of possible choices while still being choices (compared to only requiring 1 level of a class to access the entire tree). There’s still some debate that perhaps 1/2/3/4/5 is too generous, but this isn’t something we’d change lightly.
I was against limiting enhancements to 3 class trees, and I maintain that stance. I do think, however, that the 1/2/3/4/5 class requirements are too generous. I think something between that and 1/3/6/12/18 would reasonable, particularly since single-classed characters could find themselves with little to spend AP on if they're locked out of tiers 4 and 5 for so long. Maybe 1/3/6/9/12? Tier 5 already requires character level 12, so that isn't too big a hit, but it puts the best stuff out of reach of some heavily multi-classed characters, while still allowing for some reasonable multiclasses, and puts a bit of a limiter on how much players get to cherry pick from their classes' enhancements. I think it might also see more 9/9/2 splits, in addition to the continuation of the 12/6/2 builds.

What’s specific items do players consider overpowered?
Major caveat: Anything considered overpowered by some is also loved by others. We’re aware of this. Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at. There’s quite a few other possibilities we might look at, but these were near the top of the list for discussions.
• Ranged Fury of the Wild Keep in mind that this is partially due to the discussing further up about how dangerous it is to stand in melee in tough content. The other half of this is how damage-boosting effects interact with Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot. Personally, I think some of the stuff in Fury (Adrenaline, Fury Eternal, the epic moment) working with ranged attacks, despite some descriptions, is a good thing. Requiring characters to swap to melee to recharge their Adrenaline doesn't do a whole lot to actually balance things, but it does irritate dedicated ranged characters who have no interest in having to swap to melee 50% of the time, or who aren't built to melee effectively. After all, melee characters only have to swap to a ranged weapon about 0.01% of their time in DDO from 1-28.

• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers) This is largely due to their being no real alternatives to 10K Stars. The long doubleshot lockout on Manyshot means that non-monkchers are behind, even with a lot of doubleshot, because it doesn't stack up, while monkchers are largely unaffected, since they aren't spending that much time single-firing after a Manyshot. Ideally, I think, the doubleshot lockout timers would be matched to the duration of Manyshot and 10K Stars, then the ranger class would gain some new stuff to make it competitive with monkchers (a reduction in the Manyshot cooldown, or extension of the Manyshot duration, some new spells that enhance combat abilities, both melee and ranged...though these should be high up in ranger to preclude their being mixed with 10K Stars...so, added as new ranger class abilities at level 15 or higher, or added to Deepwood Stalker in the Core enhancements for level 18 or the capstone).

• Bladeforged Reconstruct I've no experience with this, but I suspect the problems here are twofold: first, this may be too cheap/have too short a cooldown, and second, it serves to highlight how poor the self-healing options are for many other characters, placing Bladeforged as the obviously best choice for a lot of characters. Although, here is yet another example of where barbarians didn't get an invitation to the party.

[Cardtrick]

How Just How did Magister not claim the bottom spot here its all but useless

It's useful for at least one useful build (DC pale master wizards). And well geared, well built necro-specced pale masters are still extremely powerful.

That's the problem with looking at epic destinies in a vacuum. I can understand the logic of people who rated this highly, and also that of people who rated it poorly. It's true that a completely maxed out necro wizard running in Magister -- the kind for whom the fact that there's an extra point of intelligence in tier 5 of Magister is a big deal, who uses every possible bit of gear, past lives, twists, etc. to maximize their DCs -- is an extremely powerful, perhaps even game breaking character (in some content). I don't feel like that's overpowered at all, since they give up so much to get to that point, and since there are still huge classes of content or enemy types against which they're very limited.

There is absolutely no way that any build running in Fatesinger or Unyielding Sentinel could possibly approach the power of a pure DC wizard in Magister. So from that perspective, it's a powerful destiny.

The other perspective is that of those who have to use Magister on a build that it's not designed for, because they're grinding destinies for fate points or epic past lifes or working their way through the destiny map. Unlike most other epic destinies - even the weak ones like Fatesinger and Unyielding Sentinel -- there's almost nothing of value in Magister. (Unearthly Reactions is a major exception -- that's an extremely useful ability for nearly any build, especially those with evasion.) A melee build in Magister is not significantly more powerful than a melee build with no destinies at all. From that perspective -- ignoring class builds and viewing the destinies in a vacuum -- it's certainly one of the least powerful destinies, if not the single least powerful.

[mons]

100% agree. I'm one of the people who spent real life money for this Iconic Class. I want what I paid for. Please leave it as it is.

Tell that to all the folks who purchased the Reign of Madness Pack to farm the no min level rings. That went well for the player base.

[Teh_Troll]

Can we see a pivot table that shows players that have a Bladeforged character and want Reconstruct nerfed versus players that do not have a Bladeforged character and want Reconstruct taken away? I would hate to see a game feature removed because of resentful players who cannot afford to buy the Bladeforged Iconic Class.

I play a bladforged-centered-kensai with many-shot.

Nerf the hell out of them.

[Alfhild]

I play a bladforged-centered-kensai with manshot.

Nerf the hell out of them.
But before doing any of that, Turbine needs to address the single most glaring omission in the game.

Reskin trolls to include nipples.

[Teh_Troll]

Oh, I see. Fearsome presence isn't worth it. -10% slashing damage - meh. Extra PRR whenever dealt slashing damage - meh again. Power of the forge (aka 4-action-boosts-merged-in-1) - meh yet again... the list goes on, but you probably know all these better than I do.

Human is a much better choice without that SLA working as it is now.




You can pretend that Recon SLA is all there is to BF, but you're not fooling anyone. The truth is BF has a lot to offer to a melee build, even a Recon SLA. But 6sec CD is game-breaking and you know it.

sign up for my course at www.howtonotbeterribleatddo.com. You might like know what it's like to actually understand the game mechanics.

YES . . . the 6 second SLA IS game-breaking . . . but without it BF is garbage. You can't really balance this, it's either OP or ****. That's why I'm saying njerf it and give us a refund and LR+20 hearts with race-change.

[Teh_Troll]

But before doing any of that, Turbine needs to address the single most glaring omission in the game.

Reskin trolls to include nipples.

Get a rope . . .

[kgoodson3]

I'm curious, to those who say don't nerf Bladeforged because I want what I paid for, how many of you agree that the Reconstruct SLA is too powerful? Would you accept a reduced SLA, such as lowering the amp or giving it a slightly longer cool down?

Would you also accept a slight nerf to it, if it improves the game long term from everyone's perspective. Would you not get more enjoyment out of an entire well-balanced game rather than one ability. This of course assumes the game gets balanced well. It may also be that balancing involves upgrading things and not toning things down.

I have paid for most classes, races and quests and welcome ANY changes to the long-term enjoyment or playability of DDO regardless of what I have paid for....

[fmalfeas]

YES . . . the 6 second SLA IS game-breaking . . . but without it BF is garbage. You can't really balance this, it's either OP or ****. That's why I'm saying njerf it and give us a refund and LR+20 hearts with race-change.

Here, a nerf that you can get behind, without touching the SLA.

Give Bladeforged an automatic extra feat! Improved Fortification.

Most players will then abandon them completely.

[Teh_Troll]

I'm curious, to those who say don't nerf Bladeforged because I want what I paid for, how many of you agree that the Reconstruct SLA is too powerful? Would you accept a reduced SLA, such as lowering the amp or giving it a slightly longer cool down?

Njerfing it at all kills the race, so don't pussyfoot around and half-measures. go full-****** and kill it.

I'll tell ya what . . . remove the caster-level limit on CSW/CCW so a bard/ranger/pally of the fleshie variety can hjeal themselves for some more and it would be fine.

And while we're at it . . . adjust the Tempest and KoTC trees to be closer to Kensai in damage dealing. Since the main advantage of ranger/pally was the self-hjeals and fighters now can get that one the BF race there really isn't ANY reason these two classes should be lower DPS.

[redspecter23]

I consider SLA reconstruct overpowered, but not necessarily in a bad way. It's overpowered because it's lightyears ahead of other self healing alternatives. If there were more alternative self healing abilities, it wouldn't be quite so amazing. I'd say they could put a slightly higher level gate on it if they wanted to. Having it kick in at level 18+ would be a good start so it's mostly used in epic play and doesn't warp heroic as much.

My proposed solution is to only nerf recon slightly with the higher min level and perhaps a slightly longer cooldown between 8 and 10 seconds. In addition add a comparable SLA to each of the other iconics. Heal for PDK. Harm for Shadar-Kai (which wold make for some interesting Shadar-Kai pale master builds) and perhaps a regen SLA for morninglords. Give them all a min level of 18 and 8 to 10 second cooldown at the highest tier. I'm not usually a huge fan of rebalancing by bringing everything up to the top tier powered ability, but I think it's justified in this case. Give all the iconics a similar edge.

[SirValentine]

30 to mid 40 is not old.


For a male in the USA, life expectancy is 77.4 years. So the way I see it, split that in two: 0 - 38.7 = young, and 38.7 - 77.4 = old. So, yes, late 30s+ is old.

Feel free to adjust figures for your country & sex. (E.g., women in Monaco aren't old until 45!)

[kgoodson3]

I'll tell ya what . . . remove the caster-level limit on CSW/CCW so a bard/ranger/pally of the fleshie variety can hjeal themselves for some more and it would be fine.

And while we're at it . . . adjust the Tempest and KoTC trees to be closer to Kensai in damage dealing. Since the main advantage of ranger/pally was the self-hjeals and fighters now can get that one the BF race there really isn't ANY reason these two classes should be lower DPS.

That part makes a troll ton of sense. I'm all for buffing other classes. It should already be like this for these classes....or give them a way in the upper levels of the enhancement trees or cores to up the caster level of their positive energy spells.

[EllisDee37]

I never had any issues self healing my ranger [...] My paladin on the other hand can barely stay alive without jumping out of combat.
Why would pally be worse at self healing, same caster levels, same csw, LOHs and heal amp in Kotc.
Duh.Presumably because his ranger stays safely out of harm's way pew pewing with a bow while the paladin has to get up close and personal to do his damage.

Duh.

[SinnJinn2]

I consider SLA reconstruct overpowered.i don't fully agree with this, maybe in heroic levels it can be considered overkill, in epics not so much. i find it's sometimes not easy to keep my bf pure arti ( yes i said pure) alive with 2 quickened recons, 1 the sla the other the spell, both set to those 2 little buttons above the scroll wheel for quick access. i could live with raising the min level of when it can be taken, but anything else would make bladeforged just as worthless as pallys, fighters ect.

[BigErkyKid]

Wow he has all of that since starting in January of this year? How can I be that awesome?

Not playing since January 2014, but rather choosing to come to the forums then. I feel I get a lot of hate for the joining date, since people seem to think I am a newcomer talking $hit :P

Answering the original message, I do not play monkchers. I did play a ranger life and when I played with buddy I would use the CC from the ranger or if things got ugly would go kiting mode to finish a boss. We are talking about an heroic life. Note that the ranger was a twfer, but kiting remained an effective, albeit that long (due to lack of dps) strategy.

For monkchers, I have the experience of running with some frequently. I have played extensively with a 8 years vet with EVERYTHING on his monkcher and with 2nd life monkchers that pretty much had build intend and felt short of everything else.

It is clear that the second type did not perform so admirably. However, they were not the first to die and could still contribute. I repeat, I agree with you that ultimate monkchers do require stuff, but I think that it is nowhere near the division between gimp DC sorcs and uber Dr Pepper's sorcs.

[capsela]

This is funny, and accurately summarizes the problem. Ranged is not only OP, it interferes with melee play and is actively anti-social. People who enjoy the social aspects of the game (healer-tank husband/wife pairs typically, and some monkchers/shiradis are actually also rather nice people) are not able to play socially at EE levels. If there is 1 ranged toon in the party, a melee toon stands a slim chance of killing a few mobs not being kited by him. If the number of ranged toons is greater than half the party, then melees can reliably sit back, relax, and watch the show, because there is no way they can catch up with all the running mobs. So once the number of ranged toons reaches a critical level, there is no point in adding non-ranged toons. EH does not demand group play, but in the one difficulty level where group play actually makes quests go faster, you need only ranged toons. Some of the really sociable elite players have respecced into evasion/dodge monk builds which can tank at EE and thus help other melee/healing toons, but most people will just try and find other ranged toons to group with at EE.

The Devs probably believe that this end-game social situation will lead to increasing player bleed from the game, and want to rebalance to prevent this. I will add here that the problem is problem more serious than they think, because once the number of ranged toons cross a critical threshold, I predict massive exodus of players who have no interest in playing ranged toons. And there are many people who just want to be a dwarf and swing an axe, and have no interest in arrows. But Devs have gotten A LOT MORE COMMUNICATIVE recently, and this is an encouraging sign.

There are 3 ways to balance

1) Buff many classes. Varg has already ruled this approach out, on the basis of excessive resource usage. This is a very good idea. Aside from resource consumption, making multiple changes at once vastly increases the number of possible bugs and exploits, will likely introduce more FoTM builds, and invalidates all the information about game balance the players have accrued thus far.

2) Nerf/buff selected abilities. Least resource usage, and least chance of introducing bugs. I add 2 suggestions 1) Always introduce some buffs along with some nerfs. If you just nerf, quests become harder to complete, low morale will set in, and people will accuse you of breaking their already-paid-for monk class etc. Give players some reason to cheer amid the inevitable grumbling. 2) Publicize nerfs/buffs on the forums way in advance. Some people will threaten to leave as you break their toons, some will be serious while others will be faking, but you will have actual data in the form of log in stats and the kinds of toons being played more often pre- and post-publication of said nerfs/buffs. Potential problems will be spotted, and if the player hemorrhage proves to be higher than anticipated, you can always rescind the changes.

3) Nerf/buff monsters. Likely very labor intensive. But potentially will upset the player base the least, since from a psychological perspective, many players will not notice these changes. An approach worth considering. And since you guys just collected feedback on monster behavior/stats anyway, might be the way to go.

As a cleric who played back in 09, the lack of teamwork and plain rudeness of today's uber soloist builds is especially disheartening. And to all the ubers who say they will leave when you nerf their broken builds, I say good riddance. They never spend money in the store anyway. All they do is farm ee loot probably multiboxing and sell on the ASAH or for TP codes. If they take their ball and go home the game will probably be better for it. I certainly won't miss their snobbery. Let them go exploit a different mmo and continue being kings of their mom's basement.

[Seikojin]

Small apologies for the formatting and wall of text...
I am not addressing destinies yet, I mainly wanted to touch the classes themselves since destinies can be a layer on top, adding customization to your already twerked out build.

Artificer
~As a class - Artificer, decent class, needs pet and melee options as well as dc boosts. Needs a pet tree.
~~Enhancement tree: Arcnotechnician - Boost the spellpower options. Give 1.5 - 2 per point in the tree. For each core, add +1 crit chance in addition to the line. Perhaps the last 3 cores, since this would push the class as the main class. For the capstone, the boosting to items is very tempting. However it should act like the item is in your spell arsenal and be affectable by other boosts (other dc boosting gear, etc). Or allow them to use metamagics at a greater consumption (dmg boosts use 3 charges per cast, all others use 2; stackable). Also the stat boost should be +4 and the spellcraft should be class level (so +20).
~~Enhancement tree: Battle Engineer - A lot is needed here. Offer martial proefficiency, and maybe some runearm discharge procs on melee attacks. Like proc burst your runearm charges on vorpals. Also various boosts to melee should be possible. like sla prr boosts, dodge boosts, perhaps more twf and thf options (doublestrike, offhand, glancing blows), and in the core abilities maybe offer some as well. So deep delving into this tree can offer some comparable melee like tempest, or thf glancing fun. Also there is little in regards to spellpower. I think points in this tree should offer spellpower as well. Perhaps 1/per points spent in tree, leaving arcnotechnician still ahead in spellpower, but enough to where delving into both trees is useful (like the design seems to be so far). Also a runearm as shielf enhancement is needed. Also I saw nothing for the pet here. This tree should have significant pet options. Like runearm discharge through pet, boosts to the pet, and synergies from the pet to host, similar to the Arcnotechnician does. The capstone needs significant boosting. +4 to stat, threat range increase by 1 or 2, increase the attachment enhancements by .5 (From all sources), in addition to the spellpower enhancements. This also should boost stablecharging past 3, to allow the full charge on the runearm.


Barbarian
~As a class - Barbarian, it is pretty melee tough, but not enough. Needs some tweaks to make each tree shine and focused.
~~Enhancement tree: Frenzied Berserker - looks like to be more hits and damage, but feedback pain. Needs boosts to hp more. Remove str while raging boost to add doublestrike boost while raging; in the cores. Capstone needs: set cooldown to 1 minute, increase threat as well with each stack, remove melee attack penalty, set h loss to 1 per stack (essentially alowing the barb to be in this fury for a long time).
~~Enhancement tree: Occult Slayer - this is for twf barbs. Needs less dr and more dodge (swap passive core dr to +1 dodge). remove rage duration boosts and add a while raging boost to bond; gain 2 instead of 1. Capstone needs: Boost force ward by 5% or add a stacking system where the ward increases as you save, until it hits 100%, then bursts an aoe heal or damage.
~~Enhancement tree: Ravager - the rager. Needs all the rage buffs into this tree. Str, con, duration, additional rages. Tie them to the cores as +1 use, str, con, dr, +10% longer. Capstone needs to proc free rages on crits/vorpals, or refill rages.

Bard
~As a class - Needs a lot of work. Until the third pre comes out (hopefully a dc CCer), the two trees need to offer focus and competitive power.
~~Enhancement tree: Spell Singer - Obviously the caster tree. Needs more song inspired dc, samage, crit chance, reduction costs (sing to empower), sla's (sonic spells), stronger healing through song, and until the third bard tree is revealed, caster song buffs added to typical melee buffs. Capstone needs add a buff to fascinate that attempts a slay sla (the other cores get their respective slay), but the slay effect increases fasinates cooldown to 30 seconds.
~~Enhancement tree: War Chanter - this is the melee tree. Skaldic rage needs to stack on top of rage, different bonus. Add +2/-2, no fatigue. Each core should add +1 to the str component of it. Spirit should also add +1 to hit. All the self buffs should passivly add half to its equal tier (lvl 1, 6, 12, 18, 20) song. So this way bards get a buff, and their songs offer more melee utility. The armorer and weapon group should be added to the core (armorer at core 1, without the failure boost, weapon group to core 2), have tier 5 have a penalty removal for their spell failure as well as adding a blur effect to their song (or enchant armor), and weapon groups slot should be replaced with +2 critical threat (and buff their songs to offer +1) Capstone: double the stat and hp bonus. Courage should add to hit, and a song proc of sonic defense (1d6 sonig damage when hit). Inspire heroics should last 30 seconds, boostable by enhancements.

Cleric
~As a class - pretty solid. Some minor tweaks boosting their core playstyles.
~~Enhancement tree: Divine Disciple - Each core ability should add 5 to light/dark spellpower. There should be dc boosters in the core abilities as well. +1 in each of the last 3. The tier 5 empowerment should do 1/2/3 for the spell level and cost 1 per. Capstone: Double stat bonus, spellpower, and 50 spellpoints. Also should have a threat reduction toggle.
~~Enhancement tree: Radient Servant - Solid healing tree. Perhaps more crit spell chance (add one to tier 1 and one to tier 5). The capstone should have double stat bonus.
~~Enhancement tree: Warpriest - The ac boost per core should be 3, smite should increase hate, sacred touch should double its prr bonus, and proc on ameleorating strike as a tier 5, 2 ap bonus. The capstone should double the stat bonus and add 10 prr.

Druid
~As a class - Solid, needs a pet friendly tree. Nothing in the trees boost pets, so maybe that until the third pre is there. Needs a pet tree.
~~Enhancement tree: Natures Warrior - The melee class. The tree is fairly strong, so nothing really is needed, save doubling the stat boost on the capstone.
~~Enhancement tree: Seasons Herald - The caster class. Pretty solid. The capstone is strong, needs double stat and maybe double dc.

Favored Soul
~As a class - Pretty solid class. Decent trees as well. Needs a tree that favors healing, similar to radiant servant.
~~Enhancement tree: Angel of Vengence - spell pen needs tiers (1/2/3), crown should grant <alignment> to targets attacks. Vengeful magic should do +1% crit @100% health, +1 DC and crit at 75%, +1 dc and crit again at 50%, and +50% crit chance (yes chance) at 25% or lower. The capstone needs double stat and offer different slas for blades, hunter, and deathless; to be in line with the offensive powers of the first three.
~~Enhancement tree: Warpriest - The ac boost per core should be 3, smite should increase hate, sacred touch should double its prr bonus, and proc on ameleorating strike as a tier 5, 2 ap bonus. The capstone should double the stat bonus and add 10 prr.

Fighter
~As a class - fairly solid after the first enhancement pass. But needs some tweaks. Perhaps a 3rd tree for partner tacticals.
~~Enhancement tree: Kensai - Dodge cap raises should be for all armor types. The tactical dc boosts should be +1 per higher. The weapon group specializations should also increase AC by 1 per specialization tier, or +2 per. Like warpriest, I think this tree needs core boosting. +3 ac and 5 prr per core. The capstone should be double stat and upgrade one cut to improved vorpal.
~~Enhancement tree: Stalwart Defender - Similar to warpriest, this needs some core boosting. +2 ac per core and +3 prr per core. Add a tier 5 ability to consider offhand weapon as a shield (if two weapon defense feat doesn't get modified to do so). Capstone needs double stat bonus and double dc boosting. The healing should be stronger, like 5-20 per hit.

Monk
~As a class - Very strong class, needs minor tweaking on its capstones and ninja spy needs more bluff abilities.
~~Enhancement tree: Henshin Mystic - A solid tree, the capstone should have double stat bonus, but everything else is good.
~~Enhancement tree: Ninja Spy - rogue based melee, Diversion and shadow double should throw a bluff against the enemy so you can sneak attack longer. The capstone needs double stat.
~~Enhancement tree: Shintao - healing based melee Solid as well, capstone needs double stat.

Paladin
~As a class - Needs a spell/sla tree that adds more spell utility. They could all use some deity tie-ins.
~~Enhancement tree: Knight of the Chalice - smiter. Maybe some defensive/heals from smite uses or turn uses. Needs turn and smite regen in the cores as well as lay on hands. Capstone needs double stat and a boosted smite attack.
~~Enhancement tree: Sacred Defender - similar to stalwart. Needs loh regen, smite regen, and similar core boosts like stalwart like mentioned above. Perhaps also the off hand weapon as shield ability as well. Capstone needs double stat, a threat gen increase, and a shield boost (enhancement boost up to +5).

Ranger
~As a class - Pretty solid class. Needs some moderate tweaks to help make them more flexible and viable. Doesn't offer much for using wild empathy to take control and make enemies pets.
~~Enhancement tree: Arcane Archer - arrow effects. The top tier elemental abilities should be aoe crit procs. Arcane archer enhancement should stack (push to paragon and epic), true strike should have a crit multiplier and threat range boost for higher ranks. The capstone should have double stat and add to your arrow DC's by +5-15 (I am guessing +5 per enhancement rank).
~~Enhancement tree: Deep Wood Sniper - favored enemy ranged power. Choosing melee based options should add to +1 or 2 to dodge each. The hit and damage bonus from favored enemy abilities should be double. The capstone should offer double stat, +2 sneak attack die, the range boosts, and also boost aimed shot to have +1 threat range, and double the hunters mercy and head shot hp amounts they deal.
~~Enhancement tree: Tempest - twf. Much like warpriest and the defensive melee trees, this one's core should add to AC, 2-3 each core. Improved defense should be double, whirling blades should also add +1 to dodge and cap per blades picked, and also be a requirement for dance of death, and dance of death should have a +1 threat range passive. The capstone should have double stat and remove the ac penalty from the growing storm and increase its stacks to 25.


Rogue
~As a class - Pretty solid, but not much combat defenses in the core tree. Mainly dc boosting needed.
~~Enhancement tree: Assassin - kill based. Sneak training should reduce threat by 2-5% each tier and be a requirement for knife specialization. More weapons should be added to the cores and spcialization (maybe all light weapons+some light exotics). The capstone should double stat and have a level drain clickie.
~~Enhancement tree: Mehcanic - ranged rogue build. Needs some more ranged sneak and pbs extensions, like 5 every core. Has some utility with building traps. Remove the half level dc and make it full level. The capstone should be double stat, boost improved traps dc by 4 (making it +5 to the dc's). and modify rapid fire to also include +1 threat range for all ranged attacks.
~~Enhancement tree: Theif Acrobat - staff builds! Pretty solid. Dc's should use full rogue level instead of half. Tumbler should increase dodge by 2, and cartwheel charge should as well. Capstone should have double stat and increase tactical dcs by 3-5.


Sorcerer
~As a class - Strong caster class, needs a small amount of defensive boosting.
~~Enhancement tree: Air Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Double the dodge bonus in the tree (not capstone). Capstone needs double stat.
~~Enhancement tree: Earth Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Earthen armor should add 5/10 ac instead of 1/2. Capstone needs double stat.
~~Enhancement tree: Fire Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Capstone needs double stat and modify fire guard to be fireshield at the same time (fire).
~~Enhancement tree: Water Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Capstone needs double stat. Should add an ice guard with ice version of fireshield to it.
~~Enhancement tree: Eldritch Knight - The cores should add +2 ac per core, the armor proficiencies should each add +2 dodge, and the capstone should have double stat, +1 threat range and multiplier as well.


Wizard
~As a class - Fairly solid. minor defensive boosts.
~~Enhancement tree: Arcane Master - Flexible casting. The capstone should add double stat, 10 spellcraft, and +2 to spell crit chance.
~~Enhancement tree: Eldritch Knight - The cores should add +2 ac per core, the armor proficiencies should each add +2 dodge, and the capstone should have double stat, +1 threat range and multiplier as well.
~~Enhancement tree: Pale Master - Fairly solid tree. Tier 5 shroud bonus for stats should eb double and increase necro dc's by 1. Capstone should have double stat and add +2 to necro dc's.


As you can see, I went all Oprah on this!

[azrael4h]

As a cleric who played back in 09, the lack of teamwork and plain rudeness of today's uber soloist builds is especially disheartening.

As a former Cleric player who started just inside of 2010, I see no difference in the lack of team work and plain sociopathic rudeness of today's elitist players vs the same players then. That is an entirely player-derived issue, and has nothing to do with DDO, solo builds, or anything else the devs or game has done. It is entirely the fault of those players themselves; they chose to be sociopaths.

[Ivan_Milic]

Do you play above casual?

I do only ee, and I see a lot of misses.
Keep trolling, just because you cant get more than 50 ac, doesnt mean its useless.

[Scrootaype]

Players min/max based on the content, difficulty, and goals of the game. There are myriad players with their own individual preferences, play times, styles, and goals. But there is only one DDO and it has evolved into a game that players are simply evolving with themselves. The common denominator is the game and how end game quests and raids make certain play styles easier to survive and succeed compared to others.

Rather than blame the play style preferences and logical choices players are making because of how the game has evolved, consider changing aspects of the quests, mobs, and damage itself so that a limited number of build types and play styles significantly exceed others.

I remember when archers complained and complained about how dps and survivability were a joke compared to melee. Well that has been reversed some with epic destinies and other toon design changes. But of course, now the other side grumbles. The game is forcing imbalances, if any, by forcing logical choices about min/maxing toons.

Stop looking to punish people for being innovative and clever. Look in the mirror instead.

[jskinner937]

i don't fully agree with this, maybe in heroic levels it can be considered overkill, in epics not so much. i find it's sometimes not easy to keep my bf pure arti ( yes i said pure) alive with 2 quickened recons, 1 the sla the other the spell, both set to those 2 little buttons above the scroll wheel for quick access. i could live with raising the min level of when it can be taken, but anything else would make bladeforged just as worthless as pallys, fighters ect.

It is overpowered on a large bluebar, but my melee completionist has less than 600sp with slots dedicated to Conor item, wizardry and increased wisdom for that extra mana. He can reconstruct half his hit points on a non-crit for a grand total of 23 times. 2 hits on EE = repair totaling 46 hits. Now that does not consider Conop procs (which is rare in new content anyways with dmg types ). I find myself shrinking a lot or drinking mana pots in EE raids still.

To me this not OP on a melee. But just a nicer option. BF AA (soul bow = endless repairs) or Arcane (2 reconstructs and no cha penalty) is OP.

[Scrootaype]

Players min/max based on the content, difficulty, and goals of the game. There are myriad players with their own individual preferences, play times, styles, and goals. But there is only one DDO and it has evolved into a game that players are simply evolving with themselves. The common denominator is the game and how end game quests and raids make certain play styles easier to survive and succeed compared to others.

Rather than blame the play style preferences and logical choices players are making because of how the game has evolved, consider changing aspects of the quests, mobs, and damage itself so that a limited number of build types and play styles significantly exceed others.

I remember when archers complained and complained about how dps and survivability were a joke compared to melee. Well that has been reversed some with epic destinies and other toon design changes. But of course, now the other side grumbles. The game is forcing imbalances, if any, by forcing logical choices about min/maxing toons.

Stop looking to punish people for being innovative and clever. Look in the mirror instead.

It didn't help that you handed out Pinions and Antipodes for free in those raid boxes. What other build can successfully use *two different* CITW named weapons like a monkcher? Again, game development has *rewarded* and *encouraged* the proliferation of certain builds. Don't punish the rational choices of smart players given what the game is and gives them.

[rcmcneil]

Since this seems to be the main subject of this thread, let's examine just exactly what "overpowered" is.

Master's Blitz: must be built up, then maintained, in order to achieve very high damage output. Delay killing something for too long, & you get to start over. maximum damage output still generally requires several hits on one trash mob in EE to kill.

Furyshot: must be built up, 30s duration, 5 minute cooldown. Very high damage output. Main way of achieving the high output is to start kiting a bunch of 8000hp mobs around until you line them up, then use it. Drop down to typical archer DPS for 5 minutes afterward, occasional Manyshot/10k Stars in between furyshot, long cooldown.

Bladeforged: Race purchased with the specific intention of using built-in racial enhancements & past life bonuses. With the exception of a Dragonmarked halfling, a race with its own ability to self-heal without using potions or scrolls. This finally makes some classes & class combos usable without having to wait around for a healer to join a group with the sole role of being a nannybot. While it is nice having classes like Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, & Bard around for healing, some decent & well overdue self-reliance is finally in the game. Yes, one must pay for it. The entire purpose of purchasing something is to have access to something that those who don't pay for it won't have.

Overpowered is:
-when an ability in a quest is so powerful as to render all other similar abilities useless, with little to no investment on the part of the player.

Overpowered is not:
-when an ability in a quest makes it completable in a reasonable amount of time.
-when an ability that was previously unavailable to a class or race is now available.
-when a specific combination of abilities with a short duration but intense requirement of build, coordination, timing, and gear come together.

For nearly a decade, casters have had the following abilities:
-kill something with a single button.
-survive a quest while killing everything without a healbot patching them up every 6 seconds.
-deal large damage & instakill at a distance.

Other classes, builds, multiclasses, & races have just recently been giving these abilities. That does not make them overpowered, that makes them finally up to par with casting abilities.

[Scrootaype]

Players min/max based on the content, difficulty, and goals of the game. There are myriad players with their own individual preferences, play times, styles, and goals. But there is only one DDO and it has evolved into a game that players are simply evolving with themselves. The common denominator is the game and how end game quests and raids make certain play styles easier to survive and succeed compared to others.

Rather than blame the play style preferences and logical choices players are making because of how the game has evolved, consider changing aspects of the quests, mobs, and damage itself so that a limited number of build types and play styles significantly exceed others.

I remember when archers complained and complained about how dps and survivability were a joke compared to melee. Well that has been reversed some with epic destinies and other toon design changes. But of course, now the other side grumbles. The game is forcing imbalances, if any, by forcing logical choices about min/maxing toons.

Stop looking to punish people for being innovative and clever. Look in the mirror instead.

Changes to guild mechanics are also to blame. Letting guilds get huge with far less decay consequences has pushed everything into channels. The LFM system is broken for the typical player. Thus being able to solo is even more important for many now in order to do all of the heroic and epic grinding the system now encourages. THUS further incentive of the Monkcher build in its variations.

[Seikojin]

Looking at the destinies; I think if the base classes and their enhancements were changed or tweaked like my Oprah post above here, I don't think Destinies will need much, if any tweaking, save fixes for components not working properly.

Like I have said early on; I don't think running monk/pally should be the end game build. I think it is working as written and makes how underwhelming pure class and other mix and matches are, and have been for a long time.

Regarding shidari; I do think it is op only in that it is not chaotic and beneficial enough for the enemies. Maybe the more you call on it, the higher the chance it procs something negative? I dunno.

[CeltEireson]

Njerfing it at all kills the race, so don't pussyfoot around and half-measures. go full-****** and kill it.

I'll tell ya what . . . remove the caster-level limit on CSW/CCW so a bard/ranger/pally of the fleshie variety can hjeal themselves for some more and it would be fine.

And while we're at it . . . adjust the Tempest and KoTC trees to be closer to Kensai in damage dealing. Since the main advantage of ranger/pally was the self-hjeals and fighters now can get that one the BF race there really isn't ANY reason these two classes should be lower DPS.

So you're solution to the problem is that anyone who wants to play a fighter has to be BF? Seems a lil extreme and kind of contrary to what I assume the devs are trying to achieve - better balance and diversity of race/class .

[sephiroth1084]

Since this seems to be the main subject of this thread, let's examine just exactly what "overpowered" is.

Master's Blitz: must be built up, then maintained, in order to achieve very high damage output. Delay killing something for too long, & you get to start over. maximum damage output still generally requires several hits on one trash mob in EE to kill.

Furyshot: must be built up, 30s duration, 5 minute cooldown. Very high damage output. Main way of achieving the high output is to start kiting a bunch of 8000hp mobs around until you line them up, then use it. Drop down to typical archer DPS for 5 minutes afterward, occasional Manyshot/10k Stars in between furyshot, long cooldown.

Bladeforged: Race purchased with the specific intention of using built-in racial enhancements & past life bonuses. With the exception of a Dragonmarked halfling, a race with its own ability to self-heal without using potions or scrolls. This finally makes some classes & class combos usable without having to wait around for a healer to join a group with the sole role of being a nannybot. While it is nice having classes like Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, & Bard around for healing, some decent & well overdue self-reliance is finally in the game. Yes, one must pay for it. The entire purpose of purchasing something is to have access to something that those who don't pay for it won't have.

Overpowered is:
-when an ability in a quest is so powerful as to render all other similar abilities useless, with little to no investment on the part of the player.

Overpowered is not:
-when an ability in a quest makes it completable in a reasonable amount of time.
-when an ability that was previously unavailable to a class or race is now available.
-when a specific combination of abilities with a short duration but intense requirement of build, coordination, timing, and gear come together.

For nearly a decade, casters have had the following abilities:
-kill something with a single button.
-survive a quest while killing everything without a healbot patching them up every 6 seconds.
-deal large damage & instakill at a distance.

Other classes, builds, multiclasses, & races have just recently been giving these abilities. That does not make them overpowered, that makes them finally up to par with casting abilities.

While essentially all true, that doesn't mean that Master's Blitz doesn't need to be tweaked downward a bit. Sure, it may require some build-up, and requires some maintenance to keep going, it also can be kept up through the entirety of many quests, and in a way that nothing else really can. It also discourages grouping to a degree. I've two-manned some EE quests with a pretty good Blitzer where, on my well-geared monkcher, I died several times, and he didn't at all, not quite soloing the quest (because he, while Blitzing, managed to also Raise me so I could help out). Sure, casters have been doing stuff like that for a long time, but a lot of their power has been checked (Wail got severely nerfed, for example), and they aren't quite at that same power level in EE content on the whole.

The problem with Furyshot is that it can both function as a de facto Wail of the Banshee and the best boss DPS burst in the game by miles. I don't think it's so bad that it needs to be disabled, but something should be done (I maintain that removing the Adrenaline procs from additional arrows on a Manyshot/10K Stars volley, and from enemies hit after the first when using IPS is the way to go).

[sephiroth1084]

Looking at the destinies; I think if the base classes and their enhancements were changed or tweaked like my Oprah post above here, I don't think Destinies will need much, if any tweaking, save fixes for components not working properly.

Like I have said early on; I don't think running monk/pally should be the end game build. I think it is working as written and makes how underwhelming pure class and other mix and matches are, and have been for a long time.

Regarding shidari; I do think it is op only in that it is not chaotic and beneficial enough for the enemies. Maybe the more you call on it, the higher the chance it procs something negative? I dunno.

Eh. I didn't agree with most of the proposals you made. And changing base classes doesn't address some of the major problems in epic destinies. Plus, base classes have more locked into them, since they still draw heavily, in one way or another, from their forebears in D&D 3.5, while the destinies are essentially untethered to anything but the whims of the developers at Turbine. Besides, the differences between destinies can be larger than those between classes by quite a bit. The difference between Defender paladin and Kensei fighter is less than the difference between Master's Blitz and everything in Unyielding Sentinel, and that's without accounting for all the other stuff that Legendary Dreadnaught offers.

The ways the balance against the automatic monk 2/paladin 2 splashes we see, are to lower the emphasis on Reflex saves (fewer end game threats that target Reflex, and fewer Reflex-save abilities that will kill you even if you make the save), and by cutting back a bit on the DCs we have to make on our saves across the board. Also, sticking some more attractive items in class levels 19 and 20, and the capstone enhancements.

The problem with Shiradi (used by casters) is that it requires so little investment, and is so much more effective than most other options available to casters in tougher content--spamming Magic Missiles is cheap, especially with the SLA available, and the Shiradi procs cover your damage and crowd control needs, while monster HP and saves largely outpace even the big booms we get from Draconic Incarnation, let alone our standard 1-9 spells, meaning casters have to blow through SP to get through a fraction of the content the Shiradi caster manages. In this case, I think Shiradi needs a very slight nerf in regards to casters, while DI and Magister (and Fatesinger) need some major buffs to make them competitive. Also, of course, there need to be some adjustments on the monsters' end as well.

[CeltEireson]

It is overpowered on a large bluebar, but my melee completionist has less than 600sp with slots dedicated to Conor item, wizardry and increased wisdom for that extra mana. He can reconstruct half his hit points on a non-crit for a grand total of 23 times. 2 hits on EE = repair totaling 46 hits. Now that does not consider Conop procs (which is rare in new content anyways with dmg types ). I find myself shrinking a lot or drinking mana pots in EE raids still.

To me this not OP on a melee. But just a nicer option. BF AA (soul bow = endless repairs) or Arcane (2 reconstructs and no cha penalty) is OP.

Which is the problem - how do you nerf an ability that may not be overpowered in melee, but is (possibly) for ranged damage? And it may become overpowered on the melee side anyway if they choose to implement effective damage reduction for melee classes that use heavy armour /shields.

I don't agree with the whole 'bait and switch' by the way - if they had implemented the class the way it is and almost immediately nerfed it then you could possibly argue that, but given that its being done a long time after they were implemented and as part of a complete review of balance I don't think the term's justified. Besides as has been pointed out everything in an MMO changes sooner or later and VIPs could ask for their money back every time one of their characters lost something due to a revamp. Having said that it would probably make good business sense to give those who specifically bought the class (ass opposed to those who got it as part of buying the expansion pack early) some kind of compensation.

If they're going to have self healing for some races/classes/enhancement trees/ epic destinies combinations then they really need to put something, if not necessarily as effective, for all of them otherwise you're still going to end up with preferred/accepted combinations. Like wizards primarily being either warforged/BF or fleshy palemasters; or multiclassing to get decent UMD and enhancements to up benefit from scrolls, to name a couple.

Yes, its possible to use fate slots to slot in some form of healing, but not exactly a big help to a character who's just reached level 20 for the first time and just starting to do epic destinies if the destiny they start in doesn't have access to self-healing.

They've put limits on the effectiveness of in-game bought potions (aside from SF pots which come with big penalties and also needs a fair bit of work to get) by restricting the max to cure serious potions at the minimum caster level, where there's no reason it shouldn't be possible to get cure critical potions at caster level 20 or even heal potions (though I know this probably doesn't follow D&D) certainly has been done in the single player computer games. Of course then they wouldn't get to sell all the improved potions that they have in the store ;) Or even do what one of the Neverwinter Nights crpgs did - make heal a class skill for all classes and allow for healing kits of varying level - higher the level/skill the more damage healed, not useful for in-combat healing but good for healing between fights i.e. it can be interrupted and takes a few seconds to work. Of course, neither of those suggestions will work unless the devs improve damage mitigation for medium/heavy armour users who melee.

[Sarramark]

I would like to point out that there is an inbalance between Paladins of the Silver Flame and those of other religions. The level 6 feat, Silver Flame Exorcism, only counts cleric levels for the DC, making it ineffective for a Silver Flame Paladin vs a Silver Flame Cleric. The level 6 feats of the other religions are equally effective for their respective Paladins and Clerics. Also, the favoired weapons of all the other faiths can be used with Smite Evil / Exalted Smite attacks, but the Silver Flame's favored weapon is the Longbow.
To fix these two issues, please change the DC of Silver Flame Exorcism to count Paladin levels, and add a passive ability to the Follower of the Silver Flame feat : Bow Smite, allowing Longbows to make a Smite Evil / Exalted Smite attack. I would also like to propose adding something similiar to Conjure Arrows as an active ability to either Child of the Silver Flame or Beloved of the Silver Flame.

[Dalsheel]

So you're solution to the problem is that anyone who wants to play a fighter has to be BF? Seems a lil extreme and kind of contrary to what I assume the devs are trying to achieve - better balance and diversity of race/class .

this.

+1

[pHo3nix]

I'm curious, to those who say don't nerf Bladeforged because I want what I paid for, how many of you agree that the Reconstruct SLA is too powerful? Would you accept a reduced SLA, such as lowering the amp or giving it a slightly longer cool down?

Would you also accept a slight nerf to it, if it improves the game long term from everyone's perspective. Would you not get more enjoyment out of an entire well-balanced game rather than one ability. This of course assumes the game gets balanced well. It may also be that balancing involves upgrading things and not toning things down.



A slightly nerf would mean that you are always better off going human or halfling with DM, cause you can use way more things to self-heal. BF melees only got the SLA: for what i care they could make it ML20, lvling in heroic with scrolls and pots is quite easy, reconstruct just let you zerg a little faster, but it has to stay as it is now for it to be useful in EE.

Turbine made the mistake to let people TR into Iconics and to let Iconics be anything: if BF could only be lvl 20 1st life (or even 3xCompletionist, paladins suck anyway :D ) Paladin the Recon SLA would be good but nothing exceptional. When you can get the recon SLA on 3xcompletionist with any kind of build it clearly becomes OP and that's why I and many other people bought BF.

So either kill the BF race and refund people that bought it or let it stay as it is and try to make other options almost as good.

[Ancient]

I do only ee, and I see a lot of misses.
Keep trolling, just because you cant get more than 50 ac, doesnt mean its useless.

I see a lot of them too, in fact I might put the number as high as 5%....

[BOgre]

Your problem isnt with the low end here. Not at all. Its the high end. Having tons of reasons to do all kinds of crazy splash builds is great and good for the game. And I say that as a staunch pure-class kinda guy. The problem is, theres almost no reason NOT to do it. Its the Core abilities. The upper ones (sometimes level 12, often level 18, almost every single level 20 one) require a ton of levels, and even worse a ton of enhancement points. They often make little sense with the class or sometimes the tree itself. And in some cases, they dont even work. Warchanter for example, the 6th Core ability lasts 12 seconds, not even a full action boost duration. Knight of the Chalice, the 6th core ability doesnt provide the good dr bypass it should. And dont even get me started on Barbarian. On top of a T5 ability which requires Improved Trip (which requires combat expertise, which you cant even use when raging even if you somehow wanted to not power attack, and takes int 13 to boot, or basically the total opposite of barbarian anything), the Frenzy Berserker 6th core kills you so fast for such little damage how would it ever encourage anyone to take 20 barb? And while the Occult Slayer 6th core might (its actually pretty awesome to have SR of 70+, if not game-changing), the SR bugs out when your con changes (like, anytime different rage effects go on or off, so often) and the various Bond effects require resetting your counter every quest to work correctly which makes playing the tree annoying at best (really, just cut down the number of bond stacks needed to like 30: sitting out on your prestige enhancement abilities for an action boost cooldown seems more than enough balance for something as common as a weapon swap... its like making a weapon change cause an action boost cooldown, thats punitive enough, 2+ minutes is just cruel).


So true.

I avoid fotm builds like the plauge. Well to be honest, I focus my play time on one build, my Tempest. Have a look at tier4 and tier5 in that tree. Pitiful. A melee focused TWF Ranger is better off wasting 2 feats on Cleave/Great Cleave just to get resets on Momentum Swing and Lay Waste than he is spending AP in his own Enhancement Tree. It's infuriating.

Thousand Cuts should have a 20 second duration (currently 6s!!!), and Bleed Them Out should have a 10/25/50% chance to reset 1000cuts' cooldown (currently no way to reset the punishing 2minutes).

Dance of Death should have a 20 second duration (currently 6s!!!), and The Growing Storm should have a 10/25/50% chance to reset DoD's cooldown. OR each attack while under the effect of The Growing Storm should have 1% chance to reset DoD for the duration of tGS (currently no way to reset the evil 1minute).

Dance of Death itself should have a chance to reset Growing Storm as well, the same way Lay Waste resets its reset-machine Momentum Swing.

Core 5 Tempest should lower the cooldown on Dance of Death and Thousand Cuts and Growing Storm by 25%. Core 6 Tempest should lower the cooldown by an additional 25% for a total of 50%.

That's at a minimum to make Tempest at least competitive, if not "Balanced"

[Ivan_Milic]

It didn't help that you handed out Pinions and Antipodes for free in those raid boxes. What other build can successfully use *two different* CITW named weapons like a monkcher? Again, game development has *rewarded* and *encouraged* the proliferation of certain builds. Don't punish the rational choices of smart players given what the game is and gives them.

I dont think you know what monkchers are, no monkcher will use antipode.

[Ivan_Milic]

Since this seems to be the main subject of this thread, let's examine just exactly what "overpowered" is.

Master's Blitz: must be built up, then maintained, in order to achieve very high damage output. Delay killing something for too long, & you get to start over. maximum damage output still generally requires several hits on one trash mob in EE to kill.


What you forgot to mention is:doesnt work in most quests that have portals or doors, or anything that has loading screen.
The only quest it works that has loading screen in between is Beyond The Rift.

[Fhauvial]

What you forgot to mention is:doesnt work in most quests that have portals or doors, or anything that has loading screen.
The only quest it works that has loading screen in between is Beyond The Rift.

Not true in the current Lama build, if I'm not mistaken. I haven't tested it personally though.

[Holleyz]

1. Rogues are no longer needed to "Scout" ahead.
How about changing the locations of the traps, control boxes, and monsters and the number of monsters in each quest so that it is random.

2. Rangers no longer "Track." This is your hunter class here, they are the guys who go hunting, fishing, tracking and scouting. They can be as stealthy as a rogue and kill their enemy before they know what hits them.http://i.imgur.com/Zv9EKEP.gif
How about making it to where the rangers actually have to track a monster or something down?

3. The Devine class has turned to Atheism.
I cannot say what needs to be done here as it is against forum policies. Sadness.

4. The Melee class has become so Jealous of the Ranged class that they have turned to drinking ale until they pass out. Remember guys its YOU who would not let the Ranger or the Wizard into your Shroud Raid parties a few years ago. So you pretty much done this to your selves. (this is a joke btw)

5. The Arcane Classes have become the masters of the game. Why? Because the devines got tired or rezzing them and the melee class denied them into their raids and parties because they seen them as a liability. Now they with their high intelligence have figured out a way to rise above all the rest and take control. Now this upsets everyone else because it is now The ARCANES who decide who or what is in the party lol.

6. Monks with bows. pretty much self explanatory.

[Ivan_Milic]

Not true in the current Lama build, if I'm not mistaken. I haven't tested it personally though.

Well I saw people complaining its not working at all on lamm.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Increase BF Reconstruct cool-down or make it cost more SP, but don't take it away...

Be nice if halflings could get a few more Dragonmark heals to bring us even 1/4 of the way to BF Reconstruct's power... Maybe regenerating dragonmarks? Or just a few more.



I'll vote for your Halfling regenerating Dragon Marks, if you vote for my Elf Regenerating Dragon Marks. ;)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I paid good money to be over-powered; you nerf me, and I'll expect a refund. ;)

[maddmatt70]

You really made me laugh, thanks!

So, after so many threads saying BF is superior to WF in every way possible, we now have this kind of comments... Make up your mind???

Nobody said they're going to remove the Recon SLA. But, I can certainly see it requiring a Turn Undead attempt to activate it, or doubling the cooldown, or both. It is too powerful to be spam-able every 6sec with -essentially- no cost.

Ummn. I would say remove it. Even 15 lay on hands for free is op in this game for a character.

[sephiroth1084]

I would like to point out that there is an inbalance between Paladins of the Silver Flame and those of other religions. The level 6 feat, Silver Flame Exorcism, only counts cleric levels for the DC, making it ineffective for a Silver Flame Paladin vs a Silver Flame Cleric. The level 6 feats of the other religions are equally effective for their respective Paladins and Clerics. Also, the favoired weapons of all the other faiths can be used with Smite Evil / Exalted Smite attacks, but the Silver Flame's favored weapon is the Longbow.
To fix these two issues, please change the DC of Silver Flame Exorcism to count Paladin levels, and add a passive ability to the Follower of the Silver Flame feat : Bow Smite, allowing Longbows to make a Smite Evil / Exalted Smite attack. I would also like to propose adding something similiar to Conjure Arrows as an active ability to either Child of the Silver Flame or Beloved of the Silver Flame.Your first issue isn't a matter of balance, it's a bug, and you should report it.

As to your second, I don't know how much the devs are going to pay attention to stuff like that, but I hope they do--the faiths need some refurbishing, and some more flexibility. The weapon choices are terrible for most of them, and the power levels of the level 6 abilities granted by them vary greatly.


I'll vote for your Halfling regenerating Dragon Marks, if you vote for my Elf Regenerating Dragon Marks. ;)

Maybe the Dragonmarks could be changed to straight-up SLAs with moderate cooldowns, rather than having a limited number of uses per rest? Would that make for a positive change across the board? Would it be too strong in any cases?

If halflings could get a Heal SLA that worked like the Bladeforged's Reconstruct, the latter wouldn't seem to unbalanced, I should think. I'd still imagine the Recon SLA should probably have its cooldown extended a little bit.

Ultimately, however, the real problem that the Recon SLA illustrates is the persistent lack of self-healing options for most classes. It's a shame that the evolution of those resources have essentially frozen 7 or 8 years ago with Cure Serious Wounds potions and Heal scrolls, despite the game gaining 16 levels in that time (I'm assuming Heal scrolls weren't available when the cap was 10). We have epic heroes! We should have some self-healing resources available in-game for in-game currency, not real money (not Turbine points or Astral Shards) that are appropriate for level 28 characters with 800-1500 HP and facing foes dishing out 150-300 damage a swing.

[Thumbed_Servant]

Please don't change the Iconic Bladeforged 1 bit! I paid money for that Iconic!

Change anything else you like in the game, none of the rest of the people paid good money for any of that content, ONLY the Bladeforged is sacrosanct in this manner!

So, SERIOUSLY, if Bladeforged get tweaked in their abilities dear fellow players, realize that it will be after much debate and discussion and opinion taking, as this survey and thread readily proves, and it will be done in the interest of the game. Changing any of the game content affects someone and much of it is content people paid for...so to you Bladeforged players: You are not above the rest of us.

[Ancient]

Please don't change the Iconic Bladeforged 1 bit! I paid money for that Iconic!

Change anything else you like in the game, none of the rest of the people paid good money for any of that content, ONLY the Bladeforged is sacrosanct in this manner!

So, SERIOUSLY, if Bladeforged get tweaked in their abilities dear fellow players, realize that it will be after much debate and discussion and opinion taking, as this survey and thread readily proves, and it will be done in the interest of the game. Changing any of the game content it affects someone and much of it is content people paid for...so to you Bladeforged players, you are not above the rest of us.
I'm still not happy about the house C challenges nerf. I still advise every player who asks not to buy it. Referenceable customers are a strength, customer trust is a difficult to regain. My main isn't a bladeforged, but I see their point.

[Teh_Troll]

So you're solution to the problem is that anyone who wants to play a fighter has to be BF? Seems a lil extreme and kind of contrary to what I assume the devs are trying to achieve - better balance and diversity of race/class .

Non-n00bs play fighters besides BF fighters?

[Fhauvial]

Well I saw people complaining its not working at all on lamm.

It wasn't working at all before, yeah. Not sure if it is now actually, as I just checked and don't see anything in the release notes. Haven't seen a confirmation anywhere that it's working again. So it's probably safe to assume it's still not working properly, contrary to my previous post.

[Thumbed_Servant]

I'm still not happy about the house C challenges nerf. I still advise every player who asks not to buy it. Referenceable customers are a strength, customer trust is a difficult to regain. My main isn't a bladeforged, but I see their point.

I see their point too...but the logic is false. Everyone has content that they paid for affected at some time or other. The fact of their having paid for Bladeforged does not make the Bladeforged something untouchable. If we followed that logic, nothing in the game could be changed...ViP players pay for ALL of the content every month.

[Teh_Troll]

I do only ee,

Obvious liar.


and I see a lot of misses.


Obvious liar.

[Thar]

I paid good money to be over-powered; you nerf me, and I'll expect a refund. ;)

time AND money.

[Fhauvial]

I see their point too...but the logic is false. Everyone has content that they paid for affected at some time or other. The fact of their having paid for Bladeforged does not make the Bladeforged something untouchable. If we followed that logic, nothing in the game could be changed...ViP players pay for ALL of the content every month.

This.

[Thar]

I see their point too...but the logic is false. Everyone has content that they paid for affected at some time or other. The fact of their having paid for Bladeforged does not make the Bladeforged something untouchable. If we followed that logic, nothing in the game could be changed...ViP players pay for ALL of the content every month.

nothing in the game should get changed for the worse that was a feature of a pack or paid for. those that are behind need to be raised up. improve the classes that can't be effective in epic hard/epic elite. Ranged is needed. furyshot is needed or ranged is minimal damage and marginally useless in epic elite. other paralize, fear, etc don't work on epic elite mobs. bards need to be useful. raged barbarians need to be viable with self healing. pally's need to be able to tank and kill some trash mob in under an hour.

if you nerf furyshot then masters blitz will be the next big thing... then nerf that, and something else takes its place. help those at the bottom move up so they stop complaining as much and enjoy the game. that's why we're all here. Hate to lose even more people to elder scrolls or another game for some fustrating change. lfm's are scarce as it is.

[Teh_Troll]

if you nerf furyshot then masters blitz will be the next big thing...

Just nerf 'em both at the same time.

[sephiroth1084]

nothing in the game should get changed for the worse that was a feature of a pack or paid for. those that are behind need to be raised up. improve the classes that can't be effective in epic hard/epic elite. Ranged is needed. furyshot is needed or ranged is minimal damage and marginally useless in epic elite. other paralize, fear, etc don't work on epic elite mobs. bards need to be useful. raged barbarians need to be viable with self healing. pally's need to be able to tank and kill some trash mob in under an hour.

if you nerf furyshot then masters blitz will be the next big thing... then nerf that, and something else takes its place. help those at the bottom move up so they stop complaining as much and enjoy the game. that's why we're all here. Hate to lose even more people to elder scrolls or another game for some fustrating change. lfm's are scarce as it is.

You can't just buff the weaker guys. That road leads to some serious inflation, which isn't a step up, ultimately, for we, the players.

[Wipey]

Presumably because his ranger stays safely out of harm's way pew pewing with a bow while the paladin has to get up close and personal to do his damage.

Duh.
Well their comparison suggests melee ranger.
I think when someone says ranger, it's twf with manyshot every 2 minutes.

[Thrudh]

It's useful for at least one useful build (DC pale master wizards). And well geared, well built necro-specced pale masters are still extremely powerful.

My DC pale master wizard runs in draconic and twists in the one ability from Magister that raises DCs. Magister is pretty weak.

[Thrudh]

YES . . . the 6 second SLA IS game-breaking . . . but without it BF is garbage. You can't really balance this, it's either OP or ****. That's why I'm saying njerf it and give us a refund and LR+20 hearts with race-change.

How about 7 seconds? That make BF completely worthless? How about 8 seconds?

[Eth]

How about 7 seconds? That make BF completely worthless? How about 8 seconds?

This.
You can easily balance it by cooldown adjustment.

Alternative: Make the caster level not dependant on character level but on ....PALADIN levels :D

[Eth]

...or they could balance it by making positive energy self-healing more attractive.
Like - giving us some more healing amp options on items.

Right now we have 2 mediocre pairs of gloves, grandfathered bracers, dragontouched armor and some minor stuff usually not worth the slot.

Running around with a lvl 16 dragontouched robe in a lvl 32 raid...

[knockcocker]

I see their point too...but the logic is false. Everyone has content that they paid for affected at some time or other. The fact of their having paid for Bladeforged does not make the Bladeforged something untouchable. If we followed that logic, nothing in the game could be changed...ViP players pay for ALL of the content every month.


I don't think it's the same at all. You pay a VIP subscription for access to the game. If the content of the game
changes beyond what you are prepared to tolerate you have the option to cancel your subscription. This does not
invalidate the previous subscription fees you paid as you had access to the game as you desired it.

Bladeforged were advertised as a race with certain characteristics which you purchased for a flat, non-refundable
fee. i.e. not a subscription or 'lease' of the product. To retroactively change those abilities is a clear case of
bait and switch in my view - after all, why wait until now?

If they change this I will petitioning for a return of the purchase fee via the BBB. I feel the same sympathy for
those who actually purchased Warforged and the Cannith Challenge Pack.

[pHo3nix]

I don't think it's the same at all. You pay a VIP subscription for access to the game. If the content of the game
changes beyond what you are prepared to tolerate you have the option to cancel your subscription. This does not
invalidate the previous subscription fees you paid as you had access to the game as you desired it.

Bladeforged were advertised as a race with certain characteristics which you purchased for a flat, non-refundable
fee. i.e. not a subscription or 'lease' of the product. To retroactively change those abilities is a clear case of
bait and switch in my view - after all, why wait until now?

If they change this I will petitioning for a return of the purchase fee via the BBB. I feel the same sympathy for
those who actually purchased Warforged and the Cannith Challenge Pack.

^This.

Consider that you can still get favor/xp from nerfed packs, so while that's annoying you still got something. You couldn't get anything from a BF without reconstruct: all their other perks are indeed nice, but once BF can't self-heal reliably anymore (in EE) the race will become basically useless. After all, just look at what the current state of barbarians is: they should be the best DPS in the game, yet for most people that got their barbarian PL they could as well remove the class cause being the best DPS(if they really are) but needing a nannybot for anything isn't just worth it. Soulstones are 0 DPS :)

[Pandir]

I don't think it's the same at all. You pay a VIP subscription for access to the game. If the content of the game
changes beyond what you are prepared to tolerate you have the option to cancel your subscription. This does not
invalidate the previous subscription fees you paid as you had access to the game as you desired it.

Bladeforged were advertised as a race with certain characteristics which you purchased for a flat, non-refundable
fee. i.e. not a subscription or 'lease' of the product. To retroactively change those abilities is a clear case of
bait and switch in my view - after all, why wait until now?

If they change this I will petitioning for a return of the purchase fee via the BBB. I feel the same sympathy for
those who actually purchased Warforged and the Cannith Challenge Pack.

IMO it's silly to think just because a class/race is purchased they should be forever set and never subject to changes, or that you should be eligible for a refund if they do.
Online games that want to keep a modicum of balance can't really work with a premise like that.

[Ivan_Milic]

Obvious liar.


Obvious liar.

****, you caught me, ac is useless and it needs to get buffed.

[Bargol]

I can't agree with this. As a VIP I could say the same exact thing about every class. I've invested real money making my characters powerful and than over the years watch them get nerfed in some form or fashion. Same with any loot that I've seen get nerfed and become useless.

There is lots of confusion with reconstruct and people are generalizing when they should be more specific. Reconstruct for melees doesn't need to be changed. Reconstruct for casters, maybe or maybe not. I can't comment on that since I don't play them, but what from what I have heard and read it does seem OP. The name of the thread is character balance and if that means a pay for class gets nocjed down a notch to be more in line with other classes than that's a good thing in my book, not a bad thing. I really can't stand entitlement issues when DDO has been constantly changing since the beginning and we all know this.

How many races have had their core abilities nerfed to uselessness? None

If you nerf the bladeforge recon they become useless. Then while your at it you might as well nerf cocoon and remove heal scrolls from the game.

Then you will have nerfed any class / multiclass combo running at endgame who doesn't have spell heals. I guess this is a way for all the pure rangers and paladins to feel powerful again.

Even better remove any cure spells from the game.....and talk about OP healing a pure pallies lay on hands what 14 of them...and they regenerate....way more overpowered then bladeforge recon.

Getting sick and tired of all the but hurt whiners on this forum. I really hope turbine does not listen to you.

[Bargol]

This.
You can easily balance it by cooldown adjustment.

Alternative: Make the caster level not dependant on character level but on ....PALADIN levels :D

Sorry but this is the bumbest thing I have read in this thread. If tied to paladin levels the race will then be 100% dead....might as well just remove it from the game.

[maddmatt70]

if you nerf furyshot then masters blitz will be the next big thing... then nerf that, and something else takes its place. help those at the bottom move up so they stop complaining as much and enjoy the game. that's why we're all here. Hate to lose even more people to elder scrolls or another game for some fustrating change. lfm's are scarce as it is.

I actually despise master's blitz. Only reason I do not want it totally nerfed to oblivion is because melee need something. Master's blitz is the most selfish concept in the entire game. It was made by Axer for Axer before he joined Turbine's staff. The concept of master's blitz is one person gets all the kills in the party while everyone else goes afk after they buff the one person. In a party based game this is an absolutely horrible concept.

[Bargol]

IMO it's silly to think just because a class/race is purchased they should be forever set and never subject to changes, or that you should be eligible for a refund if they do.
Online games that want to keep a modicum of balance can't really work with a premise like that.

How many other races have they heavily nerfed core abilities? None

The only race nerfed was warforge removing abilities they stated were not working as intended.

So turbine should claim bladeforge were not working as intended?

[Bargol]

****, you caught me, ac is useless and it needs to get buffed.

AC is not useless, but does need a buff to be really useful in EE

[genneko]

Realistic Expectations

Adrenaline: not applying to multiple shots
10K+Many: maintenance for the status quo
SLA Recon: change cooldown [30/18/6] to [20/15/10]

[Ivan_Milic]

AC is not useless, but does need a buff to be really useful in EE

Shh, it needs a buff. :D

[Eth]

Sorry but this is the bumbest thing I have read in this thread. If tied to paladin levels the race will then be 100% dead....might as well just remove it from the game.

lol, I wasn't serious with that one.

[kned225]

YES . . . the 6 second SLA IS game-breaking . . . but without it BF is garbage. You can't really balance this, it's either OP or ****. That's why I'm saying njerf it and give us a refund and LR+20 hearts with race-change.


Same story over and over again.

As if Stevie Wonder couldn't have seen a nerf coming to bf reconstruct. I don't think anyone gullible enough to chase this cheese deserves a refund. Its about learning better judgement. And no, better judgement is not begging devs to guarantee future nerf immunity, its using your head

[Dalsheel]

How many races have had their core abilities nerfed to uselessness? None

If you nerf the bladeforge recon they become useless. Then while your at it you might as well nerf cocoon and remove heal scrolls from the game.

Then you will have nerfed any class / multiclass combo running at endgame who doesn't have spell heals. I guess this is a way for all the pure rangers and paladins to feel powerful again.

Even better remove any cure spells from the game.....and talk about OP healing a pure pallies lay on hands what 14 of them...and they regenerate....way more overpowered then bladeforge recon.

Getting sick and tired of all the but hurt whiners on this forum. I really hope turbine does not listen to you.

We are also getting sick and tired of all the skill-less people who rely on game-breaking and extremely easybutton abilities to run anything above epic normal.

Learn the game, become a better player. Maybe then you will appreciate all the other great things BF has to offer to melee builds. And, I'll say again, nobody said remove Recon SLA from the racial tree. We just want it balanced, so it doesn't overshadow all other race options. Because you know... there ARE some of us who don't enjoy playing a toaster and we are just as entitled as others are to play with top notch toons.

[elvesunited]

Realistic Expectations

Adrenaline: not applying to multiple shots
10K+Many: maintenance for the status quo
SLA Recon: change cooldown [30/18/6] to [20/15/10]

Agreed. Some of the change scenarios being presented here are utterly unrealistic. They are not going to change to the degree where they are going to break builds and need to hand out +20 Lesser hearts again. In particular I see no way they will change how many levels of rogue or monk are needed for evasion or any of the feat requirements. No way that will happen. And nothing that will effectively destroy a build such as taking away SLA Recon entirely or changing 10K to shuriken only.

But I'm a little more optimistic

Adrenaline and slay arrow fixed to not work together.
Improvement to capstone abilities
AC equation tweaked so high AC matters in high content
Possible altering of some of the truly useless or substandard enhancement/ED tree abilities ( Most of Tier 5 tempest comes to mind )

[Teh_Troll]

Alternative: Make the caster level not dependant on character level but on ....PALADIN levels :D

You are an evil bastard.

[Bargol]

We are also getting sick and tired of all the skill-less people who rely on game-breaking and extremely easybutton abilities to run anything above epic normal.

Learn the game, become a better player. Maybe then you will appreciate all the other great things BF has to offer to melee builds. And, I'll say again, nobody said remove Recon SLA from the racial tree. We just want it balanced, so it doesn't overshadow all other race options. Because you know... there ARE some of us who don't enjoy playing a toaster and we are just as entitled as others are to play with top notch toons.

You are amusing.

I have one bladeforge I created recently all other characters of mine (monk, fighter, sorc, druid, bard, etc. all rely on umd/heal scrolls, any spell healing, and cocoon.

These other options are extremely powerful as well for any character. The additional options for a bladeforge would not make up for a nerfed recon. The issue is terrible players like yourself who don't understand how to make an OP build while using scroll or other healing. If you had the ability to do this you would understand that its not that overpowered.

So because you do not want to play a warforge and are a skill-less player everyone that enjoys something should be nerfed? Yeah good call.

[Vint]

I'm still not happy about the house C challenges nerf. I still advise every player who asks not to buy it. Referenceable customers are a strength, customer trust is a difficult to regain. My main isn't a bladeforged, but I see their point.

Bingo!!!

[Vint]

I see their point too...but the logic is false. Everyone has content that they paid for affected at some time or other. The fact of their having paid for Bladeforged does not make the Bladeforged something untouchable. If we followed that logic, nothing in the game could be changed...ViP players pay for ALL of the content every month.

If this is so OP, how did it get past the devs who made it, the ML’ers, the lama folk and make it all the way to live before people figured it was OP?

As Ancient and many others here have said this has happened numerous times. They release something knowing full well what its capabilities are:

Challenge xp
Challenge ingredients
Rings from the madness series
Now BF

It is not the point that they need to balance content, it is the point that they put all the shinnies out there for people to buy: then BOOM, GFY.

Balance all you want but bait/switch that we have seen more and more of will not make me want to spend more money.

[Qhualor]

If this is so OP, how did it get past the devs who made it, the ML’ers, the lama folk and make it all the way to live before people figured it was OP?

As Ancient and many others here have said this has happened numerous times. They release something knowing full well what its capabilities are:

Challenge xp
Challenge ingredients
Rings from the madness series
Now BF

It is not the point that they need to balance content, it is the point that they put all the shinnies out there for people to buy: then BOOM, GFY.

Balance all you want but bait/switch that we have seen more and more of will not make me want to spend more money.

I agree that Turbine has been famous with bait/switch, but sometimes its subjective. Mournlands is gone and now we have the devs coming to the forums presenting their thoughts to us asking for feedback, we now have a mixed bag of players on a Council giving feedback and Lama is not considered a preview server anymore. That tells me the devs are making a real effort now and willing to give it a chance. Sometimes people don't realize the power of something until it goes Live when a lot more people get creative trying to build powerful characters. To me, if reconstruct is what makes BF OP, than it makes it for a weak race. I only see it as maybe OP with certain builds.

[Qhualor]

How many races have had their core abilities nerfed to uselessness? None

If you nerf the bladeforge recon they become useless. Then while your at it you might as well nerf cocoon and remove heal scrolls from the game.

Then you will have nerfed any class / multiclass combo running at endgame who doesn't have spell heals. I guess this is a way for all the pure rangers and paladins to feel powerful again.

Even better remove any cure spells from the game.....and talk about OP healing a pure pallies lay on hands what 14 of them...and they regenerate....way more overpowered then bladeforge recon.

Getting sick and tired of all the but hurt whiners on this forum. I really hope turbine does not listen to you.

And I really hope Turbine listens to reason and not entitlement issues.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

AC is not useless, but does need a buff to be really useful in EE

It is not useless in EEs, but it isn't great either.

And all you need is to get hit once or twice and you are either dead or forced to run away.

Charge into a pack of monsters (or get agro from several) and I do not think there is an AC obtainable that provides any real protection.



Recently, I tried to finish up Grand Master of Flowers destiny by switching to robes and trying to stay centered.

I took a big drop in AC and some to PRR (I usually wear Light armor on my Rgr).

The drop is AC was very, very! Noticeable...

I know! Without a doubt. That I was getting hit waaaaay more with the lower AC.

Which, conversely means that my usually higher AC actually does something for me.


.... and now that I have switched destinies again, and got my usual AC back, I can go toe to toe with a couple EE monsters...... for a short time..... (but noticeably longer than with the lower AC).



So... no, it is not great protection.
Many people point out that it is better to strive for a higher dodge miss chance instead.

But just because some other defense is better, does not mean AC is useless either.

[Pandir]

If this is so OP, how did it get past the devs who made it, the ML’ers, the lama folk and make it all the way to live before people figured it was OP?

As Ancient and many others here have said this has happened numerous times. They release something knowing full well what its capabilities are:

Challenge xp
Challenge ingredients
Rings from the madness series
Now BF

It is not the point that they need to balance content, it is the point that they put all the shinnies out there for people to buy: then BOOM, GFY.

Balance all you want but bait/switch that we have seen more and more of will not make me want to spend more money.

I have no actual stake in the whole Recont SLA thing i can't get myself to play a toaster so my bladeforged hasn't even been tried yet. So i can't objectively say myself if the whole thing is op.

But I find this whole bait and switch argument absolutely silly, nerfing/buffing/changing game mechanics because either the issues weren't apparent during beta or because the devs
have changed their vision of what something should be, is a normal process in a persisting game.
Games much bigger than DDO with alot more resources do it all the time.

[Pandir]

How many other races have they heavily nerfed core abilities? None

The only race nerfed was warforge removing abilities they stated were not working as intended.

So turbine should claim bladeforge were not working as intended?

Not that it matters to my point but....all of them ?
I mean enhancement trees happened, if i'm no entirely mistaken the SLA is an enhancement..

[Teh_Troll]

How about 7 seconds? That make BF completely worthless? How about 8 seconds?

I'd TR out of it. Human has enough going for it that a longer cooldown on BF kills the race for me.

When human I had cocoon (sure it cost a twist), no fail scrolls, and SF pots. Yes, a 6 second Recon beats that. I cannot say an 8 second would and there's times like now in the new raids when being a fleshy who can tank stuff would be a better option than BF.

So yeah, for me it would kill that race. But I think it should be killed anyway because it's that stupid.

[Atremus]

Why can't the Developers just buff core classes abilities and capstones and call it a day.

ED's that suck could use a boost

Healing Amp Augments need to be introduced

Done

[stalksdeath]

Incoming? They're already here.


It'd be nice if, just once, they increased power to abilities to bring them up to the level of so-called "overpowered" abilities instead of nerfing the good ones.

YES!! YES, YES, YES!! For the love of all that is DDO, PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS! Shiradi casters, Ranged Fury, Melee Dreadnaught... while these builds have amazing synergy and have an easier time than MOST other builds, they are also fun to play because they WORK. Right now I am trying to imagine suffering through 3 hours of EE deathwyrm (a fantastic, fun challenge despite an *overpowered* party makeup) without any input from those *overpowered* builds.... it would have been 6 hours is my feeling, which would have made the event much less fun, perhaps even unattainable. And yes, that could be proven wrong if a specific effort was made to do just that. But then, we would have to nerf THOSE builds, wouldnt we? :)

I would love if people would instead realise the value (player base and dev alike) of making ALL classes that much fun to play... As is, several are severly UNDERpowered and could use a reworking... start with staff-toting rogues please :)

[Ungood]

But I find this whole bait and switch argument absolutely silly, nerfing/buffing/changing game mechanics because either the issues weren't apparent during beta or because the devs have changed their vision of what something should be, is a normal process in a persisting game.
Games much bigger than DDO with alot more resources do it all the time.

You do realize of course that those other "bigger" games also lose and alienate members of their player base every time they "re-balance" their game as well.

I remember when Diablo III re-balanced monks, there was a uproar among the community and people left in droves,I recall something with a StarWars MMO, where they gave a skills re-vamp and pretty much killed their game.

Every time a MMO company goes to 'modify' things, they run a very high risk of alienating their player base, no matter how big or small the company or MMO is.

[HatsuharuZ]

To me, lowering the efficacy of the manyshot + adrenaline synergy is a necessary consequence of making it possible for a wider variety of builds to be useful in epic elite content.

It is not acceptable that only a few classes and multiclass combinations are useful in the most difficult content.

[Pandir]

You do realize of course that those other "bigger" games also lose and alienate members of their player base every time they "re-balance" their game as well.

I remember when Diablo III re-balanced monks, there was a uproar among the community and people left in droves,I recall something with a StarWars MMO, where they gave a skills re-vamp and pretty much killed their game.

Every time a MMO company goes to 'modify' things, they run a very high risk of alienating their player base, no matter how big or small the company or MMO is.

Yeah sure, companies make wrong decision stuff like SWG happens, sometimes WOW happens too. As far as i recall people left diablo3 for a lot of reasons, the whole game was ill concieved(i only tried it a bit since it came with a WOW season pass).
Seems alot of people are enjoying the new expac though, although a friend told me his barbarian was destroyed now.

We're past the big changes with the enhancement pass though, a change to one SLA would in the end be minor.

Anyways my peeve is people using the fact that the paid for a class there should not be any nerfs/changes to it, or that said changes would be a bait and switch and that that would make them eligible for a refund.
I find it just silly.

[Alavatar]

Want to make a pure class more enticing? Make capstone abilities grant an additional 10-20 AP.

[Portalcat]

To say it succinctly, "...but I paid money for Bladeforged!?!" is a rationalization, not argument on the merits of BF reconstruct.

[Ancient]

To say it succinctly, "...but I paid money for Bladeforged!?!" is a rationalization, not argument on the merits of BF reconstruct.

It is a warning that the change might not be well received, which may not be an argument on the merits... It is not rationalization.

[elvesunited]

To me, lowering the efficacy of the manyshot + adrenaline synergy is a necessary consequence of making it possible for a wider variety of builds to be useful in epic elite content.

It is not acceptable that only a few classes and multiclass combinations are useful in the most difficult content.

I agree the the damage that an archer can pull off with an adrenaline-slay arrow-manyshot combination is op.
But nerfing other builds won't make epic elite more viable for a greater variety of builds.

DCs are too high for all but the most concentrated DC Caster builds ( and even then they fall flat once the red-names show up )
Monsters are just hitting too hard for tanks ( without considerable cheap self healing ) to stand their ground.
Monster hp is too high for non-shiradi damage casters to make a serious impact before they run out of power.
Bard boosts that were good enough for heroic aren't scaling to epic.

Until these things are fixed the other class combinations are still going to find themselves lacking in the usefulness department.

[avepepix]

So what you're saying is that old people are bad at DDO?


Got it.

Im not old, and im not bad at DDO. I can do it all night long with no help.

[knockcocker]

And I really hope Turbine listens to reason and not entitlement issues.

Surely people are entitled to what they paid actual money for in good faith?

I don't buy the argument at all that they've "only just realized" that BF reconstruct "may" be overpowered.
Without it, what do they do? They will be as dead as WF are as melee unless the nannybot du jour becomes
an arcane caster with Reconstruct slotted. In other words dead or relegated to a superior option for an arcane.

[Ungood]

Yeah sure, companies make wrong decision stuff like SWG happens, sometimes WOW happens too. As far as i recall people left diablo3 for a lot of reasons, the whole game was ill concieved(i only tried it a bit since it came with a WOW season pass).
Seems alot of people are enjoying the new expac though, although a friend told me his barbarian was destroyed now.

We're past the big changes with the enhancement pass though, a change to one SLA would in the end be minor.

Anyways my peeve is people using the fact that the paid for a class there should not be any nerfs/changes to it, or that said changes would be a bait and switch and that that would make them eligible for a refund.
I find it just silly.

Depends.

If that was a major selling point behind the buying of the class to begin with, then it is a bait and switch.

If they change a minor or auxiliary feature, then it is not.

So it really boils down to the change and why they purchased said item.

For example: If they bought it for looks and then they revamp the model to make it look like wal-E, saying, well, that was our intention all along, the people who bought it for how it previously looked would be slighted out of their purchase as the reason for the purchase was defunct. If they knew it was going to look like Wal-E in the end, they never would have bought it.

same idea and concept applies to abilities, the fact it is an MMO does not excuse that.

[Vint]

I have no actual stake in the whole Recont SLA thing i can't get myself to play a toaster so my bladeforged hasn't even been tried yet. So i can't objectively say myself if the whole thing is op.

But I find this whole bait and switch argument absolutely silly, nerfing/buffing/changing game mechanics because either the issues weren't apparent during beta or because the devs
have changed their vision of what something should be, is a normal process in a persisting game.
Games much bigger than DDO with alot more resources do it all the time.

The vision they had was to put out something very nice and they knew people would buy it up. They also knew that they would nerf them after they sold a certain amount.

You cannot be naive enough to think that the devs put out OP things without knowing they would erg them . I'm with you and could care less if they do nerf the sla's, but I only see this bait/switch as driving away players and not bringing in new ones.

[Ivan_Milic]

It wasnt op until you could tr into iconic, till then it was good.
So yet again we see turbine puts something good in game, adds something else to spice it up and then nerfs it all.
Challenges, terror/nightmare weapons etc.

[knockcocker]

...the fact it is an MMO does not excuse that.

I think, generally, this is what erks me the most. Just because it's an MMO and we're buying
virtual items shouldn't give them free reign do whatever they like.

[Qhualor]

Surely people are entitled to what they paid actual money for in good faith?

I don't buy the argument at all that they've "only just realized" that BF reconstruct "may" be overpowered.
Without it, what do they do? They will be as dead as WF are as melee unless the nannybot du jour becomes
an arcane caster with Reconstruct slotted. In other words dead or relegated to a superior option for an arcane.

BF should get no more special treatment than anything else. There's lots of other things in this game that are paid for and they get buffed or nerfed all the time, but people aren't throwing around entitlement issues about that. It doesn't matter if you sub or used real money.

I think reconstruct is OP for caster builds, not for melees. I can't assume what the devs knew or didn't know. I do know if you want to sell a product you want to make sure its something really good so people will buy. I can believe the devs might have underestimated reconstruct. We've complained for a long time how out of touch with the player base they are and that they develop and release mostly undesirable loot. To them it may seem balanced, but to us we can easily figure out how good or bad it us.

[Seikojin]

Eh. I didn't agree with most of the proposals you made. And changing base classes doesn't address some of the major problems in epic destinies. Plus, base classes have more locked into them, since they still draw heavily, in one way or another, from their forebears in D&D 3.5, while the destinies are essentially untethered to anything but the whims of the developers at Turbine. Besides, the differences between destinies can be larger than those between classes by quite a bit. The difference between Defender paladin and Kensei fighter is less than the difference between Master's Blitz and everything in Unyielding Sentinel, and that's without accounting for all the other stuff that Legendary Dreadnaught offers.

The main reason I went all ham on base class enhancements is to prevent locking in what Destinies are for: customizing your character for epic levels to suit your playstyle without recreating the enhancement system; but at the same time offering an enhancement like system that fits the epic vision of power.

I could have looked from the top down, however the bigger problem is people playing the best combination of classes, enhancements, and items to trivialize most content. Those builds are few and far between. If every class had options that competed as well as working as written and intended abilities, then all content would be equally trivial until they beefed up things to match the new tier of power. Same power creep, just a bigger step is needed this time. LOL



The ways the balance against the automatic monk 2/paladin 2 splashes we see, are to lower the emphasis on Reflex saves (fewer end game threats that target Reflex, and fewer Reflex-save abilities that will kill you even if you make the save), and by cutting back a bit on the DCs we have to make on our saves across the board. Also, sticking some more attractive items in class levels 19 and 20, and the capstone enhancements.

The problem with Shiradi (used by casters) is that it requires so little investment, and is so much more effective than most other options available to casters in tougher content--spamming Magic Missiles is cheap, especially with the SLA available, and the Shiradi procs cover your damage and crowd control needs, while monster HP and saves largely outpace even the big booms we get from Draconic Incarnation, let alone our standard 1-9 spells, meaning casters have to blow through SP to get through a fraction of the content the Shiradi caster manages. In this case, I think Shiradi needs a very slight nerf in regards to casters, while DI and Magister (and Fatesinger) need some major buffs to make them competitive. Also, of course, there need to be some adjustments on the monsters' end as well.

I think changing/boosting the class/enhancements dc offerings will help even the top end.

I do think if they tweaked mobs to work around the buffs players utilize (see current disenchant spamming), that more robust and non-specific builds will be viable again. Again, I do think Capstones need a big draw (like the AP add-in below is pretty good). They need boosting that works across the board; hence the suggestion that they should boost picked enhancements (either here or somewhere else).

Shidari I think, any change to its ability would be considered a big nerf. However I think it just needs a bigger list of effects. With more emphasis on healing and buffing the target. The shield was intense, but I think it is fine to have it.


Your first issue isn't a matter of balance, it's a bug, and you should report it.

As to your second, I don't know how much the devs are going to pay attention to stuff like that, but I hope they do--the faiths need some refurbishing, and some more flexibility. The weapon choices are terrible for most of them, and the power levels of the level 6 abilities granted by them vary greatly.

Maybe the Dragonmarks could be changed to straight-up SLAs with moderate cooldowns, rather than having a limited number of uses per rest? Would that make for a positive change across the board? Would it be too strong in any cases?

If halflings could get a Heal SLA that worked like the Bladeforged's Reconstruct, the latter wouldn't seem to unbalanced, I should think. I'd still imagine the Recon SLA should probably have its cooldown extended a little bit.

Ultimately, however, the real problem that the Recon SLA illustrates is the persistent lack of self-healing options for most classes. It's a shame that the evolution of those resources have essentially frozen 7 or 8 years ago with Cure Serious Wounds potions and Heal scrolls, despite the game gaining 16 levels in that time (I'm assuming Heal scrolls weren't available when the cap was 10). We have epic heroes! We should have some self-healing resources available in-game for in-game currency, not real money (not Turbine points or Astral Shards) that are appropriate for level 28 characters with 800-1500 HP and facing foes dishing out 150-300 damage a swing.

I think the dragonmarks to sla's with coolsdowns is the best I have heard regarding them since they turned tier 2 and 3 into enhancements.


You can't just buff the weaker guys. That road leads to some serious inflation, which isn't a step up, ultimately, for we, the players.

That is why I went all Oprah, buffs for everyone! Just less for some since they are well off as is. :D


How about 7 seconds? That make BF completely worthless? How about 8 seconds?

I can't agree because its cooldown is the same as the spell. WaI to me.


Want to make a pure class more enticing? Make capstone abilities grant an additional 10-20 AP.

This wouldn't be a bad idea. I mean the enhancements have hard enough restrictions preventing double tier 5's, so this would allow you to at least push to get some racials, or reap the other tree.

[count_spicoli]

BF should get no more special treatment than anything else. There's lots of other things in this game that are paid for and they get buffed or nerfed all the time, but people aren't throwing around entitlement issues about that. It doesn't matter if you sub or used real money.

I think reconstruct is OP for caster builds, not for melees. I can't assume what the devs knew or didn't know. I do know if you want to sell a product you want to make sure its something really good so people will buy. I can believe the devs might have underestimated reconstruct. We've complained for a long time how out of touch with the player base they are and that they develop and release mostly undesirable loot. To them it may seem balanced, but to us we can easily figure out how good or bad it us.

This.

I have an idea. Since we already have drifted from d&d why not just give every race the heal spell in the second tier of their enhancements. Then we don't need to rely on each other to quest ever again. Everyone will be self sufficient and really noone will need anyone to do a quest ever again except maybe to pull a lever now and then. We can take down the lfm board and just make this officially a solo game.

[Aeryyn]

I have an idea. Since we already have drifted from d&d why not just give every race the heal spell in the second tier of their enhancements. Then we don't need to rely on each other to quest ever again. Everyone will be self sufficient and really noone will need anyone to do a quest ever again except maybe to pull a lever now and then. We can take down the lfm board and just make this officially a solo game.

Because then it is no longer Dungeons & Dragons. If that happens a lot of players who play the game for the D&D aspect will most likely leave -- myself included. I play DDO because it's the closest I can get to playing actual D&D, and if the D&D aspect goes away, then I have no reason to ever play this game again.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way.

Of course, there is always the possibility that you have tongue firmly planted in cheek when you say this. :D

[BigErkyKid]

Because then it is no longer Dungeons & Dragons. If that happens a lot of players who play the game for the D&D aspect will most likely leave -- myself included. I play DDO because it's the closest I can get to playing actual D&D, and if the D&D aspect goes away, then I have no reason to ever play this game again.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way.

Of course, there is always the possibility that you have tongue firmly planted in cheek when you say this. :D

He was being sarcastic...

[intruder1]

Yep. What she said.

Uh oh......

[Talon_Moonshadow]

is BF Reconstruct the same SP as the spell?

If it is basically just giving a BF character access to the spell, than maybe I will have to look at it differently.

Is a WF/BF Wiz, Sor, or Art (of sufficient level) OP?

How does BS Recon differ?



Anyway, I never said remove it...
I just said it seems very powerful.


So far most arguments to keep it as is are based on the fact that people don't want their own toon nerfed.
(and the whole "I paid good money to be Over Powered, so I deserve it!")

[Vint]

BF should get no more special treatment than anything else. There's lots of other things in this game that are paid for and they get buffed or nerfed all the time, but people aren't throwing around entitlement issues about that. It doesn't matter if you sub or used real money.

You are missing the main point. We are all aware that this is Turbines rodeo and they can do as they please, but changing things after people have paid money for them is not what I would call good business practices. People are not crying because of an entitlement problem, they are just upset how Turbine will bring out something very sexy (knowing full well that they will nerf it) and putting it in the store until they meet a quota before they nerf it.

By all means, balance the game however you want. But you cannot convince me that they did not know that the BF recon was OP before it hit lama.

You can say that rebalancing is good for the game, but I am not so sure if their version of balance is going to bring in more players than it loses.

[Scrootaype]

How about this:

Introduce new character creation possibilities and call them "Colonics."

Let them all be pre-Update 14 and then let them enjoy Menace of the Underdark as well as epic quests and named gear attainment before it was broken or it became charity. Not to mention when the majority of the raids that are now meaningless had significance.

Cheers.

[count_spicoli]

Yes I was being sarcastic but my point is why should one race get so much of a benefit while others are left with no comparable power.

[Vint]

Yes I was being sarcastic but my point is why should one race get so much of a benefit while others are left with no comparable power.

Because they are P2P classes. If in the future Turbine wants to bring out class/races that are no stronger than any F2P class/race, no one will buy them except some that are interested in lore.

If BF did not come with self-heals for melee, how many people would have paid for it?

[slarden]

Yes the thread is about character balance, not "pure class" balance (actually the thread is about playstyle/character balance). What you suggest is not viable unless you completely destroy the very essence of the game. We have a different, almost opposite concept of the game...

lol what? You think playing a pure class should intentionally be gimped compared to multi-classing?

Providing benefits for pure level 20 class characters that were comparable to the benefits of multi-classing would increase the # of great end-game builds. That is good for the game.

"Destroy the very essence of the game"... lol really.

[Teh_Troll]

So we all agree . . . nerf monks.

Good to see we've reached a consensus.

[Sam1313]

Snipped
On Synergy[/B] It’s OK for certain combos to be more than the sum of their parts, as long as there are lots of different synergies that don’t end up too far apart from each other in terms of fun and viability.

Multiclassing (ignoring Enhancements)
This could be another entire discussion. But many players thought it was crazy that multiclassing wasn’t the forefront of the discussion, so let’s talk about it.

We like being D&D. We are unlikely to significantly alter or remove core feats or abilities from classes or races.

Multiclassing and Enhancement Trees
• Frontloading and Minimizing changes to characters: Many popular & powerful abilities are “front-loaded”; they are on low tiers in the enhancement trees. This was very consciously done so that most characters could still get most of what they desired without much hassle. We knew this would incentivize multiclassing, but decided that was an acceptable cost. Even with this, during the enhancement pass there was a great deal of outcry. This is something we could make incremental changes to affect, but each change would probably make some subset of players upset, and we’re in no hurry to revamp everything and move everything around. (Giant tangential discussion for another time or place: “Class” enhancement trees aren’t a simple solution to this.)
• Number of enhancement trees: A major part of the original design (intended to present choice as well as help balance multiclass builds vs. pure builds) was the limit of 3 enhancement trees. MULTICLASSING IS STILL CLEARLY AN INCREASE IN POWER (you get the “best” 3 trees out of 6-9, instead of just 3), but not as much as it is with 6 class trees. Essentially, we changed this due to feedback at the time, KNOWING IT WOULD HELP LEAD TO THE RISE OF MULTICLASS CHARACTERS. • Class Level Requirements: The U18 Enhancements largely required 6/12/18 class levels to get “the good stuff”. Both internally amongst the design team and publicly amongst the players, during the Enhancement pass a great variety of class level restrictions were proposed for the 5-tier trees we have now. These included some very strong calls for 1/3/6/12/28 (similar to the old system), all the way down to not requiring any class levels at all (essentially just requiring access to the tree). I’ll take personal responsibility for fighting for the 1/2/3/4/5 system we have today, which was for the goal of meaningful choices along with interesting possible builds. Instead of nearly every build being 20 or 18/2 or maybe 12/6/2, there’s a much wider variety of builds that players consider and actually take. Along with the third Core enhancement requiring level 6,THERE'S AT LEAST SOME REAL REASONS TO WANT ANYWHERE FROM 1-6 CLASS LEVELS AT LEAST. And there are definitely some builds that splash 2/3/4 levels for specific enhancements and synergies. While these synergies do provide EXTRA POWER, they also provide a much wider array of possible choices while still being choices (compared to only requiring 1 level of a class to access the entire tree). There’s still some debate that perhaps 1/2/3/4/5 is too generous, but this isn’t something we’d change lightly.

What’s specific items do players consider overpowered?
Major caveat: Anything considered overpowered by some is also loved by others. We’re aware of this. Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at. There’s quite a few other possibilities we might look at, but these were near the top of the list for discussions.
• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

Ok maybe I am wrong here but when I read this what I took away from it is what I have snipped above. Ok we are going to nerf the ranged class, but not right now. But we are looking into nerfing you in the near future. 2. We favor and want multiclasses over pure builds because the multiclass is more powereful and we designed the enhancement tree to offer this. All I have to say is WoW! I'm in shock literally. So this is the direction the developers want to take this game is it? I think it may be time for me to start thinking about a different game to invest my time and money into then.

So now the Ranged class is up to par with the melee class we now have to nerf them. Hmmm As I recall a few years ago it was those Melee guys who would not let my wizard or my ranger into the shroud raid because as I was told by them "Your ranged your just a liability we need healers and dps" The ranged class sat by silently saying nothing. But now the table has been turned We see the melee guys screaming nerf nerf nerf the ranged class.

[Sam1313]

they develop and release mostly undesirable loot.

+1. Dead on. Loot is junk. Almost 100% of the time I just pull the guild renown and the coin out of the chests and leave the rest of the ****.

[Sam1313]

This.

I have an idea. Since we already have drifted from d&d why not just give every race the heal spell in the second tier of their enhancements. Then we don't need to rely on each other to quest ever again. Everyone will be self sufficient and really noone will need anyone to do a quest ever again except maybe to pull a lever now and then. We can take down the lfm board and just make this officially a solo game.

Agreed. I was told a few pages back that this is NOT Dungeons & Dragons that THIS is DDO and that they are NOT the same. So Yeah lets do this.

[Satyriasys]

Before spending any time or money in a video game consider the following words... "Game Experience May Change During Online Play" If you find these terms unacceptable then play an offline game which doesn't patch and nothing will ever change. Otherwise you have no right to complain about "bait and switch" Someone who understands the nature of online games cannot be "baited" as they are fully aware of the possibility of changes both good and bad.

[Qhualor]

You are missing the main point. We are all aware that this is Turbines rodeo and they can do as they please, but changing things after people have paid money for them is not what I would call good business practices. People are not crying because of an entitlement problem, they are just upset how Turbine will bring out something very sexy (knowing full well that they will nerf it) and putting it in the store until they meet a quota before they nerf it.

By all means, balance the game however you want. But you cannot convince me that they did not know that the BF recon was OP before it hit lama.

You can say that rebalancing is good for the game, but I am not so sure if their version of balance is going to bring in more players than it loses.

Explain to me than why BF should get special attention and be exempt from character balance? It could very well be a bait/switch but the race is only OP to specific builds and not all. People are jumping the gun on this since the devs haven't even said they will nerf them or do anything at all to them. It could a year if at all before they get to BF reconstruct. I would rather worry about it when they actually do say changes will be made. Right now its all speculation.

[Ungood]

I think, generally, this is what erks me the most. Just because it's an MMO and we're buying
virtual items shouldn't give them free reign do whatever they like.

I think this is where all things hinge.

Some people will believe that because we don't technically own said item, that it remains under the control and possession of Turbine, they can do whatever they like to it.

The other side of the situation is that a person payed money for THAT item as it was, when they bought it, not what it gets changed into at the whim of someone else 6 months down the line.

[SirValentine]

Because then it is no longer Dungeons & Dragons. If that happens a lot of players who play the game for the D&D aspect will most likely leave -- myself included. I play DDO because it's the closest I can get to playing actual D&D, and if the D&D aspect goes away, then I have no reason to ever play this game again.


+1
/signed

[SirValentine]

This.
Alternative: Make the caster level not dependant on character level but on ....PALADIN levels :D

Heh, nice.

Don't worry, folks, that Paladin caster level is boosted by running in a Divine-sphere ED!

[Chaios]

Ok maybe I am wrong here... 2. We favor and want multiclasses over pure builds because the multiclass is more powereful and we designed the enhancement tree to offer this.

According to what I read, incentives to multiclass were created in order to encourage more variety in character builds, not to make multiclass builds more powerful than single class builds.

I'd type something about most multiclass characters being ranger/rogues, but the most recent ddo oracle breakdown of that kind of information is dated April 2013.

Regarding creating incentive to build a single class character, most of the active enhancements either involve a cool down timer, a dc, or number of uses per rest. Maybe having these increment (or decrement, as the case may be) by a percentage each class level or by a certain amount each tier would help to provide that incentive without swinging the pendulum back to multiclass characters being considered useless mongrels.

[Mercureal]

I think, generally, this is what erks me the most. Just because it's an MMO and we're buying
virtual items shouldn't give them free reign do whatever they like.


I think Vint got it dead on, with regards to this issue. Turbine is selling a service, not a product, and its customers don't own anything within the game. I think everyone realizes this. If they really wanted to, they could transition DDO to My Little Pony online (assuming they could afford to license the IP, of course...). But chances are people would stop paying for the service*, and that's really what it boils down to. They do have total free reign to do whatever they like, with the corollary that people may stop playing in response.

*Disclaimer: Playing a pink-and-purple polka dotted pony wielding a greataxe might actually be kind of amusing.

[Vint]

Explain to me than why BF should get special attention and be exempt from character balance? It could very well be a bait/switch but the race is only OP to specific builds and not all. People are jumping the gun on this since the devs haven't even said they will nerf them or do anything at all to them. It could a year if at all before they get to BF reconstruct. I would rather worry about it when they actually do say changes will be made. Right now its all speculation.

I am just point that if BF did not have the self-heal when they first came in the store, very few people would have paid for them.

My concern is not if they try to balance the game, but did they just now realize they were OP? Any one that knows this game knows that they were OP they day they sold them in the store. Self-heals on a melee? Sign me up!

Waiting so long for them to say that this is “OP” makes me believe that they are only waiting until they sold enough of them before the nerf.

Balancing BF is not the issue, bait/switch is.

I know you personally are not for P2W, but it amuses me to see people that buy advantages all the time in the store come complaining and crucifying people that do not want a BF nerf. It is okay for them to buy mana, xp, slayer pots, bypass, and countless other advantages (asah is another), but they will raise Hell if someone is playing a race/class that has an advantage.

[knockcocker]

I think Vint got it dead on, with regards to this issue. Turbine is selling a service, not a product, and its customers don't own anything within the game. I think everyone realizes this. If they really wanted to, they could transition DDO to My Little Pony online (assuming they could afford to license the IP, of course...). But chances are people would stop paying for the service*, and that's really what it boils down to. They do have total free reign to do whatever they like, with the corollary that people may stop playing in response.

*Disclaimer: Playing a pink-and-purple polka dotted pony wielding a greataxe might actually be kind of amusing.

Well, that's certainly what Turbine would want to happen. However, if you dig around, you'll find that more and more
of cases based on 'ownership' of virtual property are actually being heard in court rather than referred to arbitration.

[knockcocker]

I am just point that if BF did not have the self-heal when they first came in the store, very few people would have paid for them.

My concern is not if they try to balance the game, but did they just now realize they were OP? Any one that knows this game knows that they were OP they day they sold them in the store. Self-heals on a melee? Sign me up!


Right, and this is the crux for me. There's no way this has 'just come to our attention now...'. We're not talking
self heals on a melee we're talking self heals on a melee which starts out at 0.45 healing amp (i.e. 0.1 *worse* than
WF). Seen many WF melee in your raids recently? Arcane healers?

I wish people could see this. The healing amp penalty makes the race useless as melee.

At least they'll sell more True Iconic Hearts if this is nerfed...



Balancing BF is not the issue, bait/switch is.

Indeed.

[Qhualor]

Right, and this is the crux for me. There's no way this has 'just come to our attention now...'. We're not talking
self heals on a melee we're talking self heals on a melee which starts out at 0.45 healing amp (i.e. 0.1 *worse* than
WF). Seen many WF melee in your raids recently? Arcane healers?

I wish people could see this. The healing amp penalty makes the race useless as melee.

At least they'll sell more True Iconic Hearts if this is nerfed...


Indeed.

the BF enhancements are almost the same as Warforged enhancements. they both can reduce the penalty from positive healing to 20% with Healers Friend, but it seems some players are instead taking the Mechanist to improve their repair effects. could the pressure of "be self sufficient" be the reason for this? could be. I was in a group with a cleric last week that complained about BF not having any heal amp. its 2 years ago all over again when divines were complaining the same thing about Warforged. the same problem of either player choice not to invest in heal amp or lack of knowledge about the importance of heal amp. Warforged and Bladeforged are not 100% fleshy, so it makes sense there should be a penalty to positive healing.

[HatsuharuZ]

I agree the the damage that an archer can pull off with an adrenaline-slay arrow-manyshot combination is op.
But nerfing other builds won't make epic elite more viable for a greater variety of builds.

DCs are too high for all but the most concentrated DC Caster builds ( and even then they fall flat once the red-names show up )
Monsters are just hitting too hard for tanks ( without considerable cheap self healing ) to stand their ground.
Monster hp is too high for non-shiradi damage casters to make a serious impact before they run out of power.
Bard boosts that were good enough for heroic aren't scaling to epic.

Until these things are fixed the other class combinations are still going to find themselves lacking in the usefulness department.

I said that it's a *consequence* of, not a way to, make epic elite better for a wider variety of builds. I was saying that if the devs make epic elite a bit less difficult for anyone who isn't a furyshot archer or shiradi caster, than it's okay to nerf furyshot.

[Dalsheel]

If BF did not come with self-heals for melee, how many people would have paid for it?

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.

[EllisDee37]

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.A fair chunk of people who have bladeforged also got it from preordering Shadowfell.

[knockcocker]

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.

What?
Where do you get your statistics from?

83% of people don't agree with you.

[knockcocker]

the BF enhancements are almost the same as Warforged enhancements. they both can reduce the penalty from positive healing to 20% with Healers Friend, but it seems some players are instead taking the Mechanist to improve their repair effects. could the pressure of "be self sufficient" be the reason for this? could be. I was in a group with a cleric last week that complained about BF not having any heal amp. its 2 years ago all over again when divines were complaining the same thing about Warforged. the same problem of either player choice not to invest in heal amp or lack of knowledge about the importance of heal amp. Warforged and Bladeforged are not 100% fleshy, so it makes sense there should be a penalty to positive healing.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about the merits of whether BF/WF should
have a positive healing penalty or not.

Without the reconstruct SLA, BF are just worse WF melee. All the other enhancements are just fluff.

Even with all 3 lines of Healer's Friend you're only at something like 72% healing amp. This just isn't
enough. Remember, the main consensus of this thread was performance in Epic Elite. Are characters
with .72% healing amp and no reliable self healing going to be welcome in many EE groups - especially
BYOH ones?. As others have pointed out, if this ability is nerfed too hard it kills the race dead as
a choice for melee characters.

[Free2Pay]

I think it's long overdue that we get a Manyshot version for thrown weapons. Let melees enjoy some benefit from Shiradi please.

[Bargol]

Most of the people that have already bought it, would have done the same thing no matter what the race offered. Call it lore, or past life bonus, or simple curiosity to try it out, or whatever you like. 80% of people that bought BF would have bought it anyway, recon sla or not.

Anyone who did not get bladeforge with the preorder bought it just for the self healing. Saying its lore or any other reason is complete BS.

[Qhualor]

I think you're missing my point. I'm not talking about the merits of whether BF/WF should
have a positive healing penalty or not.

Without the reconstruct SLA, BF are just worse WF melee. All the other enhancements are just fluff.

Even with all 3 lines of Healer's Friend you're only at something like 72% healing amp. This just isn't
enough. Remember, the main consensus of this thread was performance in Epic Elite. Are characters
with .72% healing amp and no reliable self healing going to be welcome in many EE groups - especially
BYOH ones?. As others have pointed out, if this ability is nerfed too hard it kills the race dead as
a choice for melee characters.

I disagree. I have had no complaints from others with my Healers Friend maxxed out. the complaints I have heard about are BF that don't invest in it. I am also doing 3x Paladin lives for the extra 15% and only have 1x past life so far. my positive healing will never be as good as a fleshy can be, but certainly not so bad. if BF players want to improve their positive heal amp and not be a burden when others try to heal them, than they should be investing in Healers Friend and Paladin past lives are a good incentive. if that BF tree is only good because of the reconstruct, than its a weak race. I don't see it that way at all. since the Warforged tree is almost the same, that would mean that tree is also weak. I don't see it that way at all either. investment in heal amp has always been a priority in this game. its a poor player choice if they don't want to do any of that just for maxxed out benefits from reconstruct.

as ive said from the beginning, reconstruct doesn't need to be nerfed in any way for melees. maybe for caster builds so when/if the devs do make a change, they need to take that into consideration.

[azrael4h]

Anyone who did not get bladeforge with the preorder bought it just for the self healing. Saying its lore or any other reason is complete BS.

Hey, they make outstanding mules. Being level 15, and self-healing, they have no problems running low level content to get favor for the free bags/bank slots. That's what my, and most of my guildies' use BF for. Of course, we all got them with the Shadowfail preorder, so we didn't buy them outright. I did buy the Cleric one though, since that gives my guild an extra healer at that level range.

[Cardtrick]

if that BF tree is only good because of the reconstruct, than its a weak race. I don't see it that way at all. since the Warforged tree is almost the same, that would mean that tree is also weak. I don't see it that way at all either.

Warforged is a weak tree for a melee. Or, more correctly, it's not a strong enough tree to make up for the inherent disadvantages of the class.

150% healing amp is the least I'll ever consider running with if I can't self heal well, and 200% is really the minimum it takes for me to be content. More is better. Hitting those targets on a warforged or bladeforged is extremely difficult, requiring major gear investment and maxed out Healer's Friend, along with probably paladin past lives and class enhancements. Doing it on a human is pretty easy. That alone means that I would never consider a warforged melee (or a bladeforged if Reconstruct is changed).

[Cardtrick]

Hey, they make outstanding mules. Being level 15, and self-healing, they have no problems running low level content to get favor for the free bags/bank slots. That's what my, and most of my guildies' use BF for. Of course, we all got them with the Shadowfail preorder, so we didn't buy them outright. I did buy the Cleric one though, since that gives my guild an extra healer at that level range.

Bladeforged make great challenge farmers, too! 1 paladin level, then 14 sorcerer levels for delayed blast fireball. Either run it like that or take 1 more paladin level for divine grace and sit at level 16 indefinitely. Big boost to challenge rewards when running at level 20. Requires virtually no gear -- tier 1 cloak of flames and rock boots from the same challenges and a decent thaumaturgy staff and you're ready to go.

But . . . I doubt anyone spent the money just to have an easy way to make a challenge farmer.

[ishr]

nerf shiradi.

nerfing sorcs is not the solution, people who are crying about sorcs being op dont realize its the shiradi part thats op, not the sorc part. magister and draconic sorcs suck.

[Cardtrick]

nerf shiradi.

nerfing sorcs is not the solution, people who are crying about sorcs being op dont realize its the shiradi part thats op, not the sorc part. magister and draconic sorcs suck.

Haha, this from the guy with the speed challenge thread. I'm probably failing a sarcasm check, but come on -- draconic sorcerers are awesome.

[knockcocker]

Warforged is a weak tree for a melee. Or, more correctly, it's not a strong enough tree to make up for the inherent disadvantages of the class.

150% healing amp is the least I'll ever consider running with if I can't self heal well, and 200% is really the minimum it takes for me to be content. More is better. Hitting those targets on a warforged or bladeforged is extremely difficult, requiring major gear investment and maxed out Healer's Friend, along with probably paladin past lives and class enhancements. Doing it on a human is pretty easy. That alone means that I would never consider a warforged melee (or a bladeforged if Reconstruct is changed).

Precisely. BF start with even lower base healing amp than WF.

[elvesunited]

If someone has the time and inclination then by all means true resurrect and get those past life feats for a small power boost. But I really don't like the idea that a past life feat is a basic requirement of a build concept in order for that build to be competitive in Epic Elite.

[Standal]

I disagree. I have had no complaints from others with my Healers Friend maxxed out. the complaints I have heard about are BF that don't invest in it. I am also doing 3x Paladin lives for the extra 15% and only have 1x past life so far. my positive healing will never be as good as a fleshy can be, but certainly not so bad. if BF players want to improve their positive heal amp and not be a burden when others try to heal them, than they should be investing in Healers Friend and Paladin past lives are a good incentive. if that BF tree is only good because of the reconstruct, than its a weak race. I don't see it that way at all. since the Warforged tree is almost the same, that would mean that tree is also weak. I don't see it that way at all either. investment in heal amp has always been a priority in this game. its a poor player choice if they don't want to do any of that just for maxxed out benefits from reconstruct.

as ive said from the beginning, reconstruct doesn't need to be nerfed in any way for melees. maybe for caster builds so when/if the devs do make a change, they need to take that into consideration.

Bladeforged die as a melee race if reconstruct is nerfed. You may not get complaints because you've got a lot of investment in heal amp. I do also. When/if I go bladeforged melee, that all goes out the window. I will be expecting to do all of my own major healing. All I want from a party healer is a little pick me up if I'm dead or incap. That's because I will have maxed my self healing via reconstruct. If reconstruct is nerfed, I will go back to the human versions of the build that have max heal amp available and use cocoon. You make a trade off between reconstruct as a bladeforged versus heal amp as a human. It should be the most powerful melee self healing in the game, because you pretty much give up the ability to have any healing focused characters heal you.

Caster builds don't play in this discussion. They have reconstruct from the spell. They get a discount with the SLA, not a new ability. It's a matter of degree that's insignificant.

[SirValentine]

nerf shiradi.


Buff Shiradi. It will need it, if you address a more fundamental issue:

Nerf multiproccing. 1 spell, 1 proc chance. Not just Shiridi procs, but everywhere anything can proc from a spell.

It's just stupid that level 1 Magic Missle gets 5x the proc chances of level 8 Polar Ray.

[Qhualor]

Bladeforged die as a melee race if reconstruct is nerfed. You may not get complaints because you've got a lot of investment in heal amp. I do also. When/if I go bladeforged melee, that all goes out the window. I will be expecting to do all of my own major healing. All I want from a party healer is a little pick me up if I'm dead or incap. That's because I will have maxed my self healing via reconstruct. If reconstruct is nerfed, I will go back to the human versions of the build that have max heal amp available and use cocoon. You make a trade off between reconstruct as a bladeforged versus heal amp as a human. It should be the most powerful melee self healing in the game, because you pretty much give up the ability to have any healing focused characters heal you.

Caster builds don't play in this discussion. They have reconstruct from the spell. They get a discount with the SLA, not a new ability. It's a matter of degree that's insignificant.

you know what happens when you don't invest in any heal amp? you don't get a 2nd heal. after the first one, the divine says "screw this. im not wasting my sp on a manna sponge". than I guess you will be glad you gave up on heal amp so you could repair yourself a little better and only have to worry about yourself while the divine is helping the rest of the party. I have Healers Friend maxxed out, plus im focused on KOTC so I have heal amp maxxed out in the tree too. I believe in teamwork and if I want some help when I need it, than it would be nice if someone is willing to help me. not say "on your own bud. you are the one that wanted to be a drain."

[HungarianRhapsody]

you know what happens when you don't invest in any heal amp? you don't get a 2nd heal. after the first one, the divine says "screw this. im not wasting my sp on a manna sponge". than I guess you will be glad you gave up on heal amp so you could repair yourself a little better and only have to worry about yourself while the divine is helping the rest of the party. I have Healers Friend maxxed out, plus im focused on KOTC so I have heal amp maxxed out in the tree too. I believe in teamwork and if I want some help when I need it, than it would be nice if someone is willing to help me. not say "on your own bud. you are the one that wanted to be a drain."

If you don't have Reconstruct, then the best, quickest, most effective thing you can do to improve your healing amp is *not be warforged/bladeforged*. That's kind of the whole point of this part of the discussion.

[Qhualor]

Warforged is a weak tree for a melee. Or, more correctly, it's not a strong enough tree to make up for the inherent disadvantages of the class.

150% healing amp is the least I'll ever consider running with if I can't self heal well, and 200% is really the minimum it takes for me to be content. More is better. Hitting those targets on a warforged or bladeforged is extremely difficult, requiring major gear investment and maxed out Healer's Friend, along with probably paladin past lives and class enhancements. Doing it on a human is pretty easy. That alone means that I would never consider a warforged melee (or a bladeforged if Reconstruct is changed).

of course more is better. I love when divines test my heal amp and link it in party chat and say they are focusing their heals on me. the only reason why people don't really play Warforged melees is because of the penalty to heal amp, which really isn't a lot. its like some people would say Drow was a bad race to play because they start with a -2 to con. pretty silly. Warforged at one time was considered THE preferred melee race. how many races have heal amp in the tree? I believe its just 2. no complaints about the other races, but somehow Human is superior to other races just because of heal amp? that would sound OP to me than, but it cant be if the other races are being played and no one is complaining there is no heal amp in the racial trees. heal amp can be improved and no, WF/BF wont have as good as a fleshy, but it doesn't mean their heal amp actually sucks. its a player choice or lack of knowledge about the importance of heal amp that makes their heal amp so bad.

[Qhualor]

If you don't have Reconstruct, then the best, quickest, most effective thing you can do to improve your healing amp is *not be warforged/bladeforged*. That's kind of the whole point of this part of the discussion.

see post above.

[maddmatt70]

By the way Troll a pure ranger gets about 5 (7%) more shots per minute then a monkcher irregardless of any other factors. Test it out. Just shoot at a target with a pure ranger archer and a monkcher without any alacrity, doubleshot, 10k stars, or manyshot.

[Ancient]

you know what happens when you don't invest in any heal amp? you don't get a 2nd heal. after the first one, the divine says "screw this. im not wasting my sp on a manna sponge". than I guess you will be glad you gave up on heal amp so you could repair yourself a little better and only have to worry about yourself while the divine is helping the rest of the party. I have Healers Friend maxxed out, plus im focused on KOTC so I have heal amp maxxed out in the tree too. I believe in teamwork and if I want some help when I need it, than it would be nice if someone is willing to help me. not say "on your own bud. you are the one that wanted to be a drain."

If you have reconstruct then the healer should only have to worry about you in an emergency. If your version of teamwork involves either constant emergencies, or a healer who is worried about heal amp in an emergency... then your version of teamwork is pretty lousy.

[knockcocker]

You make a trade off between reconstruct as a bladeforged versus heal amp as a human. It should be the most powerful melee self healing in the game, because you pretty much give up the ability to have any healing focused characters heal you.


This.

For people who persist in insisting this is not a problem, please list your BF build and it's healing amp. Thanks.

[Standal]

see post above.

I imagine he did see your above post. Just because you post something doesn't make it gospel. The single biggest thing you can do in game to improve your heal amp is not be bf, followed closely by not being wf. You can crow about how your heal amp is better than everybody you run with, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not as good as my 30% PDK amped, 30/20/10 gear amped centered kensei with a pally past life. I'm most certainly not going to burden my party with a low heal amp BF melee with no effective self healing option when I can just take the repair amp enhancements and reconstruct.

[Qhualor]

If you have reconstruct then the healer should only have to worry about you in an emergency. If your version of teamwork involves either constant emergencies, or a healer who is worried about heal amp in an emergency... then your version of teamwork is pretty lousy.

if your vision of teamwork is being a manna drain than your vision is pretty lousy.

[Qhualor]

I imagine he did see your above post. Just because you post something doesn't make it gospel. The single biggest thing you can do in game to improve your heal amp is not be bf, followed closely by not being wf. You can crow about how your heal amp is better than everybody you run with, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not as good as my 30% PDK amped, 30/20/10 gear amped centered kensei with a pally past life. I'm most certainly not going to burden my party with a low heal amp BF melee with no effective self healing option when I can just take the repair amp enhancements and reconstruct.

of course not and neither is yours. its all opinion.

its true if you want max heal amp than go Human and not BF, but its also fact that just because you are BF doesn't mean your heal amp must suck.

im not crowing anything. just saying if you want someone to help you out with a heal than have some heal amp. if not, than don't complain or get mad at them because they will take the -10% over wasting their manna. you know, sacrifice a little power for a little power somewhere else.

[HatsuharuZ]

The one thing I've noticed about most of the warforged and bladeforged characters I've run with on Orien is that they all build to self-heal with repair spells and effects. Well, there was this one warforged barbarian I met while doing House P epics, but that's the only "non-self-healing" warforged that I've met ever. Taking any of that away is a bad idea, I think.

That said, if the reconstruct SLA is a problem, then just increase the cooldown a bit. People won't like it, but there are other things they can use besides that one SLA.

[Ancient]

if your vision of teamwork is being a manna drain than your vision is pretty lousy.
How is taking care of your own health other than a rare emergency a mana drain?

My main toon has a healing amp of zero... I'm a palemaster and I'm shocked if I ever get a heal. Newsflash, I'm still a team player.

[Qhualor]

How is taking care of your own health other than a rare emergency a mana drain?

My main toon has a healing amp of zero... I'm a palemaster and I'm shocked if I ever get a heal. Newsflash, I'm still a team player.

there is nothing wrong with taking care of your own health. my argument was about melee BF, not casters. WF/BF casters are expected to take care of themselves.

[Free2Pay]

If it is a foregone conclusion that melee should never overtake arcane in term of dps and survivability, then it should be a courtesy to state so. If one had the early warning that melee is not viable in late game, one would not have wasted time to build a melee toon - whose sole purpose in party seem to be reduced to being just a spectator. There is nothing fun being a melee in DDO right now. Not when mobs are getting CC by ranged when tactical feats are useless. Not when melee dps is reduced by fortification the constant hassle to equip the right weapon to beat DR when arcane has spells to bypass spell resistance. Not when there is no need for a tank in raid when you can't even build a decent tank without godly gears. Not when you respond to the outcry of arcane DC but ignore the AC of melee. Not when arcane has more hitpoints than melee. Not when kiting has no real drawback. Not when melee has no real advantage. Not when reconstruct on arcane warforged is okay but considering nerfing melee BF SLA.

Do you think newcomer's perception of balance is the same as the veteran? Newcomer who tried DDO and perceive the imbalance would not stick around long to understand any late game mechanics. And if they do make it to late game, melee players would be quite shocked when they realise they should either TR to arcane or just leave the game.

[Ancient]

If it is a foregone conclusion that melee should never overtake arcane in term of dps and survivability, then it should be a courtesy to state so. If one had the early warning that melee is not viable in late game, one would not have wasted time to build a melee toon - whose sole purpose in party seem to be reduced to being just a spectator. There is nothing fun being a melee in DDO right now. Not when mobs are getting CC by ranged when tactical feats are useless. Not when melee dps is reduced by fortification the constant hassle to equip the right weapon to beat DR when arcane has spells to bypass spell resistance. Not when there is no need for a tank in raid when you can't even build a decent tank without godly gears. Not when you respond to the outcry of arcane DC but ignore the AC of melee. Not when arcane has more hitpoints than melee. Not when kiting has no real drawback. Not when melee has no real advantage. Not when reconstruct on arcane warforged is okay but considering nerfing melee BF SLA.

Do you think newcomer's perception of balance is the same as the veteran? Newcomer who tried DDO and perceive the imbalance would not stick around long to understand any late game mechanics. And if they do make it to late game, melee players would be quite shocked when they realise they should either TR to arcane or just leave the game.
Zeus is an example of a viable top end melee build that beats arcane in dps. It is not an easy build to make, equip or play. Turbine does unfortunately have a trend of nerfing the wrong things.

[Ancient]

there is nothing wrong with taking care of your own health. my argument was about melee BF, not casters. WF/BF casters are expected to take care of themselves.
The point of having a reconstruct SLA is to be able to heal like a WF/BF caster.

[Qhualor]

The point of having a reconstruct SLA is to be able to heal like a WF/BF caster.

my stance stays the same. some people say BF reconstruct is OP, but I don't see it that way for melees. caster builds would be able to benefit from it way more than a melee build can with a sp pool vastly greater than a melees and there is gear that they would have to boost the benefits. a melee isn't going to keep a reconstruct scepter in their hands while fighting and there isn't enough boosts and it doesn't last long enough between shrines for Power of the Forge. a smart melee that groups with other players wouldn't dump Healers Friend for Mechanist either.

[BigErkyKid]

Zeus is an example of a viable top end melee build that beats arcane in dps. It is not an easy build to make, equip or play. Turbine does unfortunately have a trend of nerfing the wrong things.


Zeus is a good example of DPS and the reconstruct helps a lot. However, I wonder how Zeus would do in real quests.

Besides, to make a Zeus you need more effort, IMO, that to build say some shiradi nuker.

The point isn't so much that melee are IMPOSSIBLE to pull in end game, rather than it is comparably much harder than other builds

Even if you make a melee happen, it will have to be a raw DPS one (except for monks), which for me it kills a lot of the nice tactical options a melee has.

It is absurd the cooldown that a lot of the tactical abilities have (seriously!). That, coupled with the insanely huge DCs one has to reach, kills a lot of the fun of the game. Not to mention that abundant red names make those tactical abilities even more useless.

I used to be excited about building a good powerful end game character for every class (melee, arcane, divine and archer) but nowadays I have given up and gone back to heroics. I feel that 3/4 of the options of the game disappear in end game. Most of the abilities don't scale well and you end up with a much narrower set of options.

[Standal]

I used to be excited about building a good powerful end game character for every class (melee, arcane, divine and archer) but nowadays I have given up and gone back to heroics. I feel that 3/4 of the options of the game disappear in end game. Most of the abilities don't scale well and you end up with a much narrower set of options.

First I would say type and not class, but 3 out of 4 isn't bad. You can build excellent end game melee (Cetus, Zeus), arcane (Shiradi), and archer (monkcher) fairly easily. I don't think there's a great divine build right now, but my caster cleric in US is pretty unkillable and can dish out the heals like all get out. I just hope nobody can tell how pathetic his damage is swinging his mace.

[BigErkyKid]

First I would say type and not class, but 3 out of 4 isn't bad. You can build excellent end game melee (Cetus, Zeus), arcane (Shiradi), and archer (monkcher) fairly easily. I don't think there's a great divine build right now, but my caster cleric in US is pretty unkillable and can dish out the heals like all get out. I just hope nobody can tell how pathetic his damage is swinging his mace.

I would like more options than those. For melee, the to go option seems to be a fighter / monk splash with a mention to rogue staffs. For caster, a shiradi. For archer, monkcher.

Variations exist, but all rely on very similar combinations. Compare that to the viable options in heroics and it is just sad.

I do think that the big problem is that many enhancements and feats do not scale well. Thoughts on that?

PS - I know it is POSSIBLE to have other options in epics, but I don't think that overall there are as many.

PS - Yes, I clearly meant "type".

[Ancient]

First I would say type and not class, but 3 out of 4 isn't bad. You can build excellent end game melee (Cetus, Zeus), arcane (Shiradi), and archer (monkcher) fairly easily. I don't think there's a great divine build right now, but my caster cleric in US is pretty unkillable and can dish out the heals like all get out. I just hope nobody can tell how pathetic his damage is swinging his mace.

Dc casting is viable, draconic is viable, monks in grandmaster are viable, assassins are viable, throwers are viable, light based divines are just shy of viable. There are other builds, some easy, some not so easy. I think "much less effort" is a far smaller balance issue than not possible. In fact, I think there needs to be builds that take different amounts of effort. It lets people play the game, but still have something to strive for. The balance issue I see is that divines are weaker and that melee and ranged require high stats and past lives to even build.

[Ancient]

my stance stays the same. some people say BF reconstruct is OP, but I don't see it that way for melees. caster builds would be able to benefit from it way more than a melee build can with a sp pool vastly greater than a melees and there is gear that they would have to boost the benefits. a melee isn't going to keep a reconstruct scepter in their hands while fighting and there isn't enough boosts and it doesn't last long enough between shrines for Power of the Forge. a smart melee that groups with other players wouldn't dump Healers Friend for Mechanist either.

You can have your opinion, most posted builds disagree, anything I would build would disagree, but opinions are easy. If you try to claim you have better teamwork because you make poor build choices, I'll file that in the nonsense pile and tell you so.

If the bf melee is taking care of their own red bar except for rare emergencies, the best conservation of resources is mechanist (repair amp). If the melee needs a rare emergency heal, heal amp isn't the point since they can top themselves off when they are out of trouble. Wasting resources by optimizing the rare divine heal over the normal repair is simply squandering party resources.

The only place you might have a point is for a raid tank... But maybe not even there. If you are going for a heal amp raid tank, why be bladeforged?

[Qhualor]

You can have your opinion, most posted builds disagree, anything I would build would disagree, but opinions are easy. If you try to claim you have better teamwork because you make poor build choices, I'll file that in the nonsense pile and tell you so.

If the bf melee is taking care of their own red bar except for rare emergencies, the best conservation of resources is mechanist (repair amp). If the melee needs a rare emergency heal, heal amp isn't the point since they can top themselves off when they are out of trouble. Wasting resources by optimizing the rare divine heal over the normal repair is simply squandering party resources.

The only place you might have a point is for a raid tank... But maybe not even there. If you are going for a heal amp raid tank, why be bladeforged?

we agree to disagree than. I don't see it as wasting party resources helping each other out and investing in some heal amp so players wont mind tossing you a heal as needed. my BF Paladin has Healers Friend maxxed out along with heal amp in KOTC maxxed out. I know he could get more out of his reconstruct, but right now getting 200 per reconstruct has been plenty while I get no complaints and plenty of teamwork from others for an occasional heal. ive been in some groups where people say they refuse to heal other BF and watched them die. as I enter epics now I will get more out of it, but this is a past life for me so I wont be investing too much just for that. you make it sound like divines don't heal or teamwork is nonexistent. that's a fallacy started by the forums.

[knockcocker]

my stance stays the same. some people say BF reconstruct is OP, but I don't see it that way for melees. caster builds would be able to benefit from it way more than a melee build can with a sp pool vastly greater than a melees and there is gear that they would have to boost the benefits. a melee isn't going to keep a reconstruct scepter in their hands while fighting and there isn't enough boosts and it doesn't last long enough between shrines for Power of the Forge. a smart melee that groups with other players wouldn't dump Healers Friend for Mechanist either.

I don't think this kind of nonsense belongs in this thread. Sorry.

[BigErkyKid]

Dc casting is viable, draconic is viable, monks in grandmaster are viable, assassins are viable, throwers are viable, light based divines are just shy of viable. There are other builds, some easy, some not so easy. I think "much less effort" is a far smaller balance issue than not possible. In fact, I think there needs to be builds that take different amounts of effort. It lets people play the game, but still have something to strive for. The balance issue I see is that divines are weaker and that melee and ranged require high stats and past lives to even build.

As you say, divines seem hard to pull in end game.

In any case, my complaint is that the builds that the range of builds is smaller in end game. Don ´t you agree with that?

And I point out in the direction of poor scaling of enhancements and feats. Again does someone disagree with that?

So people complain about balance because they feel that they are channeled into playing a narrow set of builds and if they don't don't, they are clearly relatively (to the true powerful builds) gimp.

[pHo3nix]

we agree to disagree than. I don't see it as wasting party resources helping each other out and investing in some heal amp so players wont mind tossing you a heal as needed. my BF Paladin has Healers Friend maxxed out along with heal amp in KOTC maxxed out. I know he could get more out of his reconstruct, but right now getting 200 per reconstruct has been plenty while I get no complaints and plenty of teamwork from others for an occasional heal. ive been in some groups where people say they refuse to heal other BF and watched them die. as I enter epics now I will get more out of it, but this is a past life for me so I wont be investing too much just for that. you make it sound like divines don't heal or teamwork is nonexistent. that's a fallacy started by the forums.

So in your opinion it makes perfect sense to max healer's friend and wear healing amplification items on a BF for the rare occasions when you need an external divine heal cause you are incapacited or stunned/knocked down and not to maximize the input of your own reconstruct that you are going to use 99,9% of the times? If you play with other BF/WF with reconstruct the % of divine heals you are going to need is even smaller.

[Ancient]

As you say, divines seem hard to pull in end game.

In any case, my complaint is that the builds that the range of builds is smaller in end game. Don ´t you agree with that?

And I point out in the direction of poor scaling of enhancements and feats. Again does someone disagree with that?

So people complain about balance because they feel that they are channeled into playing a narrow set of builds and if they don't don't, they are clearly relatively (to the true powerful builds) gimp.

I have zero desire to play a special snowflake game where you can make random choices and be just as powerful as a well tuned build. Working on your build should mean something. I have posted my thoughts on how to help some of the enhancement trees, destinies and pure class builds that fell behind. If end game doesn't have a difficulty bar to get past then It isn't much of an end game.

"Narrow" set of builds is subjective. I would like to see more options, but I think there already more options than the 3 or 4 thrown around here. Some people would like to see no options where end game content requires the holy trinity tank/healer/dps. To me, that is the narrowest set of choices and an unpleasant one at that.

[Ancient]

we agree to disagree than. I don't see it as wasting party resources helping each other out and investing in some heal amp so players wont mind tossing you a heal as needed. my BF Paladin has Healers Friend maxxed out along with heal amp in KOTC maxxed out. I know he could get more out of his reconstruct, but right now getting 200 per reconstruct has been plenty while I get no complaints and plenty of teamwork from others for an occasional heal. ive been in some groups where people say they refuse to heal other BF and watched them die. as I enter epics now I will get more out of it, but this is a past life for me so I wont be investing too much just for that. you make it sound like divines don't heal or teamwork is nonexistent. that's a fallacy started by the forums.

I agree with knockcocker that your anti-BYOH bigotry belongs in another thread. Just like you can't heal stupid, you can't heal amp a jerk player into being nice.

[pHo3nix]

"Narrow" set of builds is subjective. I would like to see more options, but I think there already more options than the 3 or 4 thrown around here. Some people would like to see no options where end game content requires the holy trinity tank/healer/dps. To me, that is the narrowest set of choices and an unpleasant one at that.

Sadly a lot of people think that only form of team play is the holy trinity. If i'm still playing DDO it's only because it doesn't require the trinity.

[Sloene]

Just a thought, Bladeforged are an Iconic race that has been beefed up by their god to be the perfect war machines ( at least in his eyes ), they are SUPPOSED to be superior to other races, that's kinda the point of them.

[Qhualor]

I agree with knockcocker that your anti-BYOH bigotry belongs in another thread. Just like you can't heal stupid, you can't heal amp a jerk player into being nice.

im not anti BYOH. please quote where I said anything like that. stop trolling and stick to the discussion.

[Qhualor]

So in your opinion it makes perfect sense to max healer's friend and wear healing amplification items on a BF for the rare occasions when you need an external divine heal cause you are incapacited or stunned/knocked down and not to maximize the input of your own reconstruct that you are going to use 99,9% of the times? If you play with other BF/WF with reconstruct the % of divine heals you are going to need is even smaller.

that's what works best for me, but anybody can do it anyway they want. like I said before, if you don't have a decent heal amp, you wont get help from others or you will hear complaints for being a manna drain.

[Ancient]

im not anti BYOH. please quote where I said anything like that. stop trolling and stick to the discussion.

If I had more heal amp, would you not call me mean names?

[pHo3nix]

that's what works best for me, but anybody can do it anyway they want. like I said before, if you don't have a decent heal amp, you wont get help from others or you will hear complaints for being a manna drain.

Mana drain is someone that needs many heals to be kept alive; BF/WF usually keep themselves alive, just need heals in emergencies and for those times your HA doesn't matter much as long as you can survive till you can reconstruct yourself.

When i play BF/WF i always tell people trying to heal me that they should save their SP for better uses unless they see me stunned/knocked down.

[zwiebelring]

Î don't get the Reconstruct hate right now. Juggernaut melees were prevalent before this race hit live and these builds were centered as well, had same defenses available and could buff the whole group with arti buffs where BF melees are mores elfish.

They cater the current *i must be able to solo everything* attitude, nothing else. But even this was able to do with WF melee arti. The reconstruct sla is by far the smallest concern. It is not the classes/races fault if endgame players tend to look just on powercreep and therefor build the mechanically ideal character, which happens to have a certain multiclass order + destiny etc.

[Bargol]

of course more is better. I love when divines test my heal amp and link it in party chat and say they are focusing their heals on me. the only reason why people don't really play Warforged melees is because of the penalty to heal amp, which really isn't a lot. its like some people would say Drow was a bad race to play because they start with a -2 to con. pretty silly. Warforged at one time was considered THE preferred melee race. how many races have heal amp in the tree? I believe its just 2. no complaints about the other races, but somehow Human is superior to other races just because of heal amp? that would sound OP to me than, but it cant be if the other races are being played and no one is complaining there is no heal amp in the racial trees. heal amp can be improved and no, WF/BF wont have as good as a fleshy, but it doesn't mean their heal amp actually sucks. its a player choice or lack of knowledge about the importance of heal amp that makes their heal amp so bad.

So apparently this is 2009 and we are running shroud?

In the landscape of todays game either you are fleshie with as high heal amp as you can get or BF/WF and heal yourself (with emergency heals from party members if needed).

Brag about your BF/WF heal amp but most decent players/healers will laugh. As a BF/WF with heavy investment in heal amp you can get mediocre healing compared to all non-WF races.

Changing anything with bladeforge (nerfing) makes the race not worth any of its other perks.

I TRed one of my toons into a bladeforge recently and have been playing him in epics and the perks are ok, but really if it wasn't for the self recon human would be a much better option. Honestly I have been thinking about TRing back into a human or half-elf because of how not over powered the bladeforge race is compared to other races.....even with the self healing.

...and yes the drow race is a bad race compared to the other options we currently have. Just because you like flavor or lore doesn't mean the rest of us should have to deal with it.

[Qhualor]

Mana drain is someone that needs many heals to be kept alive; BF/WF usually keep themselves alive, just need heals in emergencies and for those times your HA doesn't matter much as long as you can survive till you can reconstruct yourself.

When i play BF/WF i always tell people trying to heal me that they should save their SP for better uses unless they see me stunned/knocked down.

of course heal amp matters. im seeing more and more complaints about BF heal amp sucking and players not liking to throw them a heal. people are going to be more reluctant to throw more than 1 heal on you if they see that they hit you for a low amount or some will even ask you if you know about the importance of heal amp like you are a new player. if you are a good enough player to be self sufficient in every quest and you tell everyone in the group not to bother with helping you out as needed, than theres not much of a problem there. but lets be a little more realistic. the average BF melee player isn't always going to not need assistance.

rationalizing that BF melees don't need to invest in heal amp is exactly the kind of false information that does not need to spread around the game. I just hope that some people are able to see through the bull**** and build smarter. people say the devs are disconnected from the game. its no wonder when they read this kind of bull.

[Bargol]

that's what works best for me, but anybody can do it anyway they want. like I said before, if you don't have a decent heal amp, you wont get help from others or you will hear complaints for being a manna drain.

If someone complains about your heal amp because they had to give you one emergency heal in a quest then something other then build or gear is wrong. My BF has no investment in heal amp....zero.

I run in groups and have never had anyone say anything bad about my amp....in fact I get the occasional helpful heal but everyone knows I will not only be taking care of myself but throwing heal scrolls on others to help them out.....but yeah I guess I suck at team play.

[Qhualor]

So apparently this is 2009 and we are running shroud?

In the landscape of todays game either you are fleshie with as high heal amp as you can get or BF/WF and heal yourself (with emergency heals from party members if needed).

Brag about your BF/WF heal amp but most decent players/healers will laugh. As a BF/WF with heavy investment in heal amp you can get mediocre healing compared to all non-WF races.

Changing anything with bladeforge (nerfing) makes the race not worth any of its other perks.

I TRed one of my toons into a bladeforge recently and have been playing him in epics and the perks are ok, but really if it wasn't for the self recon human would be a much better option. Honestly I have been thinking about TRing back into a human or half-elf because of how not over powered the bladeforge race is compared to other races.....even with the self healing.

...and yes the drow race is a bad race compared to the other options we currently have. Just because you like flavor or lore doesn't mean the rest of us should have to deal with it.

actually I wasn't bragging and I wasn't referring to my BF TR. I was actually referring to my barb.

what changes are the devs making? the answer is, we don't know when and if at all. they only said they would look into reconstruct. for all we know it could be a minor nerf or it could be a boost. too many people running around with their heads chopped off without any information yet.

im assuming the reference to 2009 is role playing? again, quote me where I said that.

[Qhualor]

If someone complains about your heal amp because they had to give you one emergency heal in a quest then something other then build or gear is wrong. My BF has no investment in heal amp....zero.

I run in groups and have never had anyone say anything bad about my amp....in fact I get the occasional helpful heal but everyone knows I will not only be taking care of myself but throwing heal scrolls on others to help them out.....but yeah I guess I suck at team play.

I suppose you think fortification isn't important too because you are not going to toe to toe with mobs? zero heal amp = no heals from anyone. you must be an anomaly because im seeing the complete opposite in game.

[pHo3nix]

if you are a good enough player to be self sufficient in every quest and you tell everyone in the group not to bother with helping you out as needed, than theres not much of a problem there. but lets be a little more realistic. the average BF melee player isn't always going to not need assistance.


Then the average BF melee player has to learn to keep himself alive and play better or just TR to a fleshie: expecting everything to be based on mediocre players is what is getting the game dumbed down every update.



rationalizing that BF melees don't need to invest in heal amp is exactly the kind of false information that does not need to spread around the game. I just hope that some people are able to see through the bull**** and build smarter. people say the devs are disconnected from the game. its no wonder when they read this kind of bull.

Building for something you need 0.1% of the times at the expense of something you need 99,9% of the times doesn't seem smart.

[Bargol]

I suppose you think fortification isn't important too because you are not going to toe to toe with mobs? zero heal amp = no heals from anyone. you must be an anomaly because im seeing the complete opposite in game.

Oh you're trying to be funny....how cute.

On a fleshie zero heal amp means death...very true. On a WF non caster (which would be stupid) yep...no heals for you. However, on a bladforge that will taking care of their own heals will always get the emergency heal they need. If they don't then the problem isn't with the build its the noobie people they are running with.....any investment on a (self healing) bladgeforge in heal amp is a waste of AP and most decent players know this.

[Qhualor]

Oh you're trying to be funny....how cute.

On a fleshie zero heal amp means death...very true. On a WF non caster (which would be stupid) yep...no heals for you. However, on a bladforge that will taking care of their own heals will always get the emergency heal they need. If they don't then the problem isn't with the build its the noobie people they are running with.....any investment on a (self healing) bladgeforge in heal amp is a waste of AP and most decent players know this.

oh man. more wise words lol. its the other players fault because they wont throw a heal to a zero heal amp BF? as ive pointed out, you can still max out Healers Friend and still have very good reconstruct. of course you could get more if you take Mechanist, but you dont need to if you know how to play and build.

[Bargol]

actually I wasn't bragging and I wasn't referring to my BF TR. I was actually referring to my barb.

what changes are the devs making? the answer is, we don't know when and if at all. they only said they would look into reconstruct. for all we know it could be a minor nerf or it could be a boost. too many people running around with their heads chopped off without any information yet.

im assuming the reference to 2009 is role playing? again, quote me where I said that.

A dev gave a nerf list. In the coming months you can expect everything on the list to be nerfed unless the devs have some good arguments not to nerf. There are many people, like yourself, that are claiming the bladeforge recon is to overpowered. The rest of us are providing arguments why its not overpowered and/or why it should not be nerfed. In some of your more recent posts you now seem to realize its not overpowered on a melee, well I also put forth its not overpowered on an arcane.....unless they are running shiradi. So the problem isn't the bladgeforge race its the shiradi destiny, with a giant blue bar that makes it overpowered.

Turbine has a history of nerfing with a sledge hammer. If you are so naive to think this list is not going to lead to nerfs then I have a bridge to sell you in the marketplace.

[Bargol]

oh man. more wise words lol. its the other players fault because they wont throw a heal to a zero heal amp BF? as ive pointed out, you can still max out Healers Friend and still have very good reconstruct. of course you could get more if you take Mechanist, but you dont need to if you know how to play and build.

A properly built well played bladeforge shouldn't ever need any heals period....just like a palemaster. If you can't play one of these without others healing you....maybe that is the issue?

A rare emergency heal is just that. Anyone building for that is wasting AP. You are better off maxing out repair then healers friend / heal amp. Unless of course you think people like cetus (one of the more popular bladeforge builds) is a bad player and bad at building toons?

[Qhualor]

A dev gave a nerf list. In the coming months you can expect everything on the list to be nerfed unless the devs have some good arguments not to nerf. There are many people, like yourself, that are claiming the bladeforge recon is to overpowered. The rest of us are providing arguments why its not overpowered and/or why it should not be nerfed. In some of your more recent posts you now seem to realize its not overpowered on a melee, well I also put forth its not overpowered on an arcane.....unless they are running shiradi. So the problem isn't the bladgeforge race its the shiradi destiny, with a giant blue bar that makes it overpowered.

Turbine has a history of nerfing with a sledge hammer. If you are so naive to think this list is not going to lead to nerfs then I have a bridge to sell you in the marketplace.

this is what Varg actually said

What’s specific items do players consider overpowered?
Major caveat: Anything considered overpowered by some is also loved by others. We’re aware of this. Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at. There’s quite a few other possibilities we might look at, but these were near the top of the list for discussions.
• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

notice the important part where he says "Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at." when the day comes they talk about it than we can cry nerf.

quote me where I said I think reconstruct is OP. what I actually have said is that it is NOT OP for melees, but maybe or maybe not for caster builds. before trying to argue your point and say im wrong about something, please get the facts straight first.

[Bargol]

this is what Varg actually said

What’s specific items do players consider overpowered?
Major caveat: Anything considered overpowered by some is also loved by others. We’re aware of this. Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at. There’s quite a few other possibilities we might look at, but these were near the top of the list for discussions.
• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

notice the important part where he says "Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at." when the day comes they talk about it than we can cry nerf.

quote me where I said I think reconstruct is OP. what I actually have said is that it is NOT OP for melees, but maybe or maybe not for caster builds. before trying to argue your point and say im wrong about something, please get the facts straight first.

How long have you played the game? Pretty much anything that is discussed as being OP is nerfed. Also read the wording....the dev is saying maybe it will maybe it won't. Then tab over to the other discussions on this forum with many people complaining about monkchers, ranged fury, and bladeforge reconstruct.

[Bargol]

I think reconstruct is OP for caster builds......


Went back a couple pages and found this. To lazy to sift through everything to find more.

[Qhualor]

How long have you played the game? Pretty much anything that is discussed as being OP is nerfed. Also read the wording....the dev is saying maybe it will maybe it won't. Then tab over to the other discussions on this forum with many people complaining about monkchers, ranged fury, and bladeforge reconstruct.

it may or may not, we dont know anything yet. what I do know is that people are jumping to conclusions without any information yet.

[HungarianRhapsody]

it may or may not, we dont know anything yet. what I do know is that people are jumping to conclusions without any information yet.

No. People are jumping to conclusions based on Turbine's long and not-at-all-varied history of nerfing. We have quite a lot of information. Past performance is not a guarantee of the future, but it certainly is a strong indication.

[Ungood]

anyone but me rather bemused that the thought process is to nerf BF as opposed to buffing other melee options to make them equally viable?

[pHo3nix]

If people think that BF recon is OP on BF casters the solution is quite simple and it leave BF melees untouched: just make the Recon SLA share the same cooldown of the spell, so people can choose to get the SLA or the spell, but taking both at the same time would be useless.

[Qhualor]

No. People are jumping to conclusions based on Turbine's long and not-at-all-varied history of nerfing. We have quite a lot of information. Past performance is not a guarantee of the future, but it certainly is a strong indication.

yes, its amazing how people remember the bad stuff and none of the good stuff because the devs have never done anything positive for DDO. nerfs aren't always a bad thing. sometimes its good for the overall game, but people have a hard time looking at things objectively.