Player Character Balance

[Uska]

Other than both of the caster destinies, and the bard destiny, and shadowdancer. My arti has gone through all of the destinies getting fate points and the shiradi is only okay, it only has real strong bonuses for the crossbow. Arti's are a LOT more than a crossbow, people really need to wrap their tiny brains around that fact.

A lot of people have posted about monk and monk builds, here's the thing, monks aren't allowed to multiclass, that's why they keep breaking DDO. Monks are supposed to be able to stand side by side with a character in expensive awesome gear and hold a candle to that person in the nude. As a penalty for this they are supposed to shirk material possessions (like epic gear) and they are heavily penalized, losing all of their monk abilities if they multi out of monk even once, a few exceptions include monk specific prestige classes and classes designed with hybridization in mind, but nothing from the core books.

So while you're leveling yes, monks have a lot of well balanced power that makes them play very smoothly once you get the hang of them, a lot of the time they are even quite OP. However, once we get into the epic levels those sharp contrasts begin to really fade away, monks remain viable, and when well built they're down-right pretty powerful, but they never have and I fear never will hold a candle to ranged characters, certainly not after recent updates.

I can't address ever issue of balance in the game, I can't speak from every viewpoint. I can say though, as a melee who loves epics, it is RIDICULOUS to try to be useful in an EE party on a monk, our epic DR from class levels, USELESS, PRR, well it's pretty tough to push it past like 70 on a monk, so again, useless, AC, tough to get above 140 on a monk, heck, mine's at 110 and that was tough, once again, USELESS. Then to top it all off there's no epic HP booster monks can pick up, no way to get an extra 20% health like a fighter or paladin, so they're a heavy melee without any heavy, it works okay as long as defensive stats are beneficial, but when enemies seem to have a guaranteed hit rate (seriously my pali has a 160 AC buffed up and he is NEVER missed in EE) and they're dealing 1/4 of your HP per hit (most of the mobs that get on me in EE on a monk are swinging for like 250+) well it's just a recipe for disaster, and it's no fun to run up smack things twice and flee in terror to behind a wall of self healing 900 HP casters, and bows that inflict every status effect in the game and explode for a kadrillion damage every 2 minutes.

If you want game balance you have to start thinking of the fact that melee is something people enjoy. There may be fewer melees these days than ever but that's exactly what is going to happen when you make a build like the Fury Shot so tremendously overpowered.

So this will anger people, make FotW only effect melee, that was the original idea, it seems plain to see that the idea was for barbs to have another type of stackable rage, however we have resulted in a setup that's simply an easy button, and there should never be an easy button. But then again let's be honest, FotW was a bad idea in the first place, it was obviously going to make a HUGE shift to the game balance and it was broken at the moment of it's inception. I say ditch it all-together and replace it with something similar so those builds can still function, but far more restricted so that the easy button build no longer exists (other than every W/F arcane but that's a dead issue at this point.)

In summary I think melee has been overlooked in recent updates, leading to a serious disadvantage in upper tiered content, disadvantages are fine, some classes should have an easier time with some quests, sometimes it's better to be ranged, these are facts. However everyone who builds carefully and plans well, has a bit of luck and good decision making on their gear, they should be able to stand up in EE, if really truly well built they should be able to thrive with a friend or two. I don't think EE should be a solo run, but I also don't think it should be impossible to duo if you have for example, a paladin and a monk, or a melee ranger (I know unheard of these days) and a bard. DDO was designed with the original pnp goal of being all inclusive, making it possible for any type of player and any type of playstyle to at the very least approach a difficult quest, fair that some playstyles take longer to make progress, and some simply aren't as tough as others, but the simple fact remains that many aren't viable options at all after level 10-12, the game makes a sharp and sudden incline and build styles that aren't heavily defensive start finding themselves in trickier and trickier positions. Yes archers and mages should have to duck and dodge enemies, it's always been the policy that ranged characters kite things around annoyingly, lol. However a class intended to be a heavy melee, like a barb, monk, fighter, or paladin, should not be completely destroyed at that impasse and should if built well be just as viable in end game epics as it is in mid game raids. That however is not the case.

In summary, the biggest balance breaker to me is that the ranged DPS has skyrocketed over the last two years, and it was already nothing to scoff at, with defenses and difficulties also changing so dramatically melee builds are nearly useless in end game, that's a problem. I like ranged and I like casters, but I also like melee, and my favorite job is tanking, which is very disheartening when that's an impossibility because of crazy inflated mobs.

Please pardon my spelling and grammar, I've just woken up.

Actually in pnp monks are allowed to multiclass but once they take any class other than monk after their first monk level they may no,longer gain. Monk levels if they did that here it might reduce some people splashing monk but not many.

[mikarddo]

It is flawed, but it is also the best measure we have (it is the only one). I use kill count the same way as you describe: if I'm 4X the rest of the party combined, I know that I'm doing well, but I also need to be careful if I run out of spell points because the backup DPS is much lower. When someone is about the same kill count as me, I'm challenged to bring my A game. When someone is 2X my kill count, I'm watching to see what they do, how they are built and trying to learn what I can.

Completely agree. Removing the kill counter even flawed as it is would be a mistake imho. If it could be changed or augmented to show total damage as well that would be ok but its not something I consider terribly important either.

The kill count in itself isnt bad - its what you do with it. If someone uses it badly or lets it bother them that others use it badly thats not the fault of the kill counter.

Sorry for the derail which isnt a complete derail anyway as kill counts are a way to make it known when balance might be broken.

Anyway, back to the regular show. I am very curious how the Devs will pick up after posting such a thread just before the weekend and its plainly Monday now (evening here, but prime time work hours for the Devs).

[Cardtrick]

Anyway, back to the regular show. I am very curious how the Devs will pick up after posting such a thread just before the weekend and its plainly Monday now (evening here, but prime time work hours for the Devs).

Ha, if I was Vargouille at this point I would close my eyes, mouse over the close button on the thread, click it, shudder, turn away, and never think about posting another forum thread again.

There's probably a good reason I'm not a game developer.

[Kaytis]

I have always had the assumption that nerfing blitz/furyshot/whatever would go hand in hand with nerfing mob hp and damage in EE. (EH seems about right.) If they actually nerfed the OP abilities but didn't adjust EE, that would be a tragic mistake.

And yet, sadly, we all know that this is exactly what will happen. They will not just nerf all the things, they won't do anything about EE content. Instead of just some builds being viable, maybe only one will be, or not even that.

If they want to encourage build diversity, they might want to consider just reducing the incoming damage from EE mobs. If it is not possible to handle a few seconds of contact with one, then the only builds people will take in to EE are the ones that don't come into contact with the mobs. If it is possible to survive contact, maybe more builds would be viable and people could play the classes they like instead of the ones they are being pigeon-holed into.

[macros123]

Focus on the fundamental flaws in your design of content.

Making changes to the ED's, Enhancements, and classes is only adjusting the symptoms and does nothing to address the root cause of the issues. There are changes needed, to be sure, but it will gain you little in the end if you don't look at the PROBLEMS. Monster HP, their saves, their "to-hit", their damage, and to a lesser extent traps are pushing people into certain builds. Let's look at this objectively. The fact is a blitzing barbarian with an eSOS WILL do more DPS than an AA in Shiradi, but when the barb is dead because he has no defenses, the AA will live on killing mobs, and is thus way more effective.

You will only force people to make new race/class/ED combinations that will be considered the new "best" if you don't put some effort into addressing the root problems.

[Timap]

As Barb was young, he had fun. Me did hit all the bad guys on the head, yes yes. Also found a nice shiny big axe that play nice with muscles.
But Barb here not like ranged characters, as they make me run a lot. Feet already hurt. Also not like bad guy that makes ouch to me.
Me tried throwing big axe, but missed and was not returning. Now sit with this Pally guy in the corner and play dice while others have fun.

This is funny, and accurately summarizes the problem. Ranged is not only OP, it interferes with melee play and is actively anti-social. People who enjoy the social aspects of the game (healer-tank husband/wife pairs typically, and some monkchers/shiradis are actually also rather nice people) are not able to play socially at EE levels. If there is 1 ranged toon in the party, a melee toon stands a slim chance of killing a few mobs not being kited by him. If the number of ranged toons is greater than half the party, then melees can reliably sit back, relax, and watch the show, because there is no way they can catch up with all the running mobs. So once the number of ranged toons reaches a critical level, there is no point in adding non-ranged toons. EH does not demand group play, but in the one difficulty level where group play actually makes quests go faster, you need only ranged toons. Some of the really sociable elite players have respecced into evasion/dodge monk builds which can tank at EE and thus help other melee/healing toons, but most people will just try and find other ranged toons to group with at EE.

The Devs probably believe that this end-game social situation will lead to increasing player bleed from the game, and want to rebalance to prevent this. I will add here that the problem is problem more serious than they think, because once the number of ranged toons cross a critical threshold, I predict massive exodus of players who have no interest in playing ranged toons. And there are many people who just want to be a dwarf and swing an axe, and have no interest in arrows. But Devs have gotten A LOT MORE COMMUNICATIVE recently, and this is an encouraging sign.

There are 3 ways to balance

1) Buff many classes. Varg has already ruled this approach out, on the basis of excessive resource usage. This is a very good idea. Aside from resource consumption, making multiple changes at once vastly increases the number of possible bugs and exploits, will likely introduce more FoTM builds, and invalidates all the information about game balance the players have accrued thus far.

2) Nerf/buff selected abilities. Least resource usage, and least chance of introducing bugs. I add 2 suggestions 1) Always introduce some buffs along with some nerfs. If you just nerf, quests become harder to complete, low morale will set in, and people will accuse you of breaking their already-paid-for monk class etc. Give players some reason to cheer amid the inevitable grumbling. 2) Publicize nerfs/buffs on the forums way in advance. Some people will threaten to leave as you break their toons, some will be serious while others will be faking, but you will have actual data in the form of log in stats and the kinds of toons being played more often pre- and post-publication of said nerfs/buffs. Potential problems will be spotted, and if the player hemorrhage proves to be higher than anticipated, you can always rescind the changes.

3) Nerf/buff monsters. Likely very labor intensive. But potentially will upset the player base the least, since from a psychological perspective, many players will not notice these changes. An approach worth considering. And since you guys just collected feedback on monster behavior/stats anyway, might be the way to go.

[blackdoguk]

If anything Blitz needs a serious buff in stability. It's been brought up by other posters but why on earth would you consider decreasing the power of the destiny that makes melee characters compete in EE? Where are the posts on the forums that have people up in arms about Blitz?

Having run the Fire Peaks raid a good few times now it's obvious that the design merits constant movement. Stationary meleeing of mobs is a death sentence. Even if you clear the yellow blast radius, have sheath, the prism cloak and firestorm greaves equipped chances are the splash damage will kill you. (Why you would bother to put down a blast marker that doesn't cover the entire damage area baffles me but that's for another thread.)

The mechanics of that raid and massive trash spawns means that at all times something is being kited. Frantically chasing after mobs on one or two stacks of blitz is really not fun especially on a TWF, in fact it's hazardous to my health. I'd be happy for a slight reduction in damage in exchange for a little more stability.

[Hathorian]

Remember that there are certain skills that require you to get kills to charge them up (the Druid's Fatal Harrier, for example), so removing the kill count isn't going to stop people coming in and last-hitting by a long shot. Nor will it stop people who want to be a hero from trying to be a hero. The kill count's a flawed but informative way of showing how well you're performing.

If you want to add something for bragging rights, I think adding in a "total damage dealt" counter would offer a better representation of effectiveness in battle.

Anyway, this is also a bit off the original topic.

That would be fun to also include a total damage dealt counter. I'd like that though I think there are many who wouldn't.

[Ancient]

Kill count seems to be a competition for some people. That's just silly in a PvE game.

Teamwork and tactics should be more important than kill count, and yet I constantly hear people brag about how many kills they've gotten. It doesn't prove anything but that you're (in most cases) not a team player.

Kinda of a catch 22. I don't talk about kill count (mine or others) in party chat, so you never know I'm using it how I'm using it unless you are one of the handful of people I send a tell afterwards telling them that they rocked that quest.

Knowing kill count doesn't suddenly render you incapable of teamwork.

[danotmano1998]

Hi.

The problem is not in nerfing/balancing characters.
The problem lies in nerfing/balancing quests and mobs.

When the only viable option in the top level content is just not to ever get hit, period, you tend to foster imbalance.
Take a look at some of your CR's, monster hit points, and saves.

You guys make bosses that have hundreds of thousands of hit points and can do more damage on a single hit than most builds can even achieve hit point wise and are seriously considering nerfing player abilities?


NOBODY that plays this game wants a round of improperly worked balance passes simply because it's quicker or easier.
Had these things been balanced more properly from the beginning, none of this would even exist as a "problem".

The reason the game is in the state it is now is simply because of the history of half-fixes that DDO is known for.
Adding another balance pass that is another half fix is asking for disaster in a long sad history of disasters.


Please stop making me redo my characters over and over and over and over again and instead focus on the content side of things. Make properly scaled monsters with appropriate challenge ratings, balanced saves, and reasonable hit points to start with. Then do a balance pass or two on some of the old stuff and stay with it until it's done. THEN we can talk about character balance.

[Cordovan]

Whew! Just wanted to thank everyone who has participated so far. This thread and topic has been extremely interesting and valuable, and we're really pleased with the results so far. Thank you for staying (largely) on-topic and for keeping things civil and productive.

I did want to answer the criticism about the survey not including multi-classing: Yes, that is correct. The survey focuses on things that fit best into a numbered survey format. Which is why this topic isn't a survey, nor a thread, but is rather both. Discussing the complexities that multi-classing brings to the mix is best done outside of a survey format, such as this thread. Thanks!

[Delacroix21]

Whew! Just wanted to thank everyone who has participated so far. This thread and topic has been extremely interesting and valuable, and we're really pleased with the results so far. Thank you for staying (largely) on-topic and for keeping things civil and productive.

I did want to answer the criticism about the survey not including multi-classing: Yes, that is correct. The survey focuses on things that fit best into a numbered survey format. Which is why this topic isn't a survey, nor a thread, but is rather both. Discussing the complexities that multi-classing brings to the mix is best done outside of a survey format, such as this thread. Thanks!

Any words on consideration to nerfing EE monsters a bit?

[Ancient]

Not really it just means you hit the monster last I have seen hundreds of cases where myself or others have beaten monsters to a sliver of their lives and someone come in a finish them off and then brag how high their count was and don't say that's tactics as we have sometimes found ways to leave those same characters on their own in a mass of mobs and soon they are a soulstone. Changing or eliminating the kill count counter would at least stop that baloney.

If you think eliminating kill count would suddenly bring about world peace (or party unity)... then you are out of touch with reality. The issue of jerks bragging will continue with or without kill count and is a completely different issue.

Yes kill count is flawed, but as I said earlier... it is the best we have. It also is somewhat accurate. When I'm more than double the kill count of the rest of the party COMBINED... it wasn't just a lucky hit. When that same build, different party has another player who is double my kill count... that was not a lucky hit either. I've even had the strange situation where I was more than 2X the kill count of four of the other party members combined... but this druid staff build was 2X my kill count. Made me rethink what I thought I knew about staff builds.

The fact that many players in the game are quiet about kill counts and at most just send someone a tell "great job" when they were overwhelmingly ahead means that the most visible use of kill count are the jerks you describe. The same jerks would still find a way to be jerkish... and the polite players wouldn't have anything nearly as good to replace it.

[zwiebelring]

Whew! Just wanted to thank everyone who has participated so far. This thread and topic has been extremely interesting and valuable, and we're really pleased with the results so far. Thank you for staying (largely) on-topic and for keeping things civil and productive.

I did want to answer the criticism about the survey not including multi-classing: Yes, that is correct. The survey focuses on things that fit best into a numbered survey format. Which is why this topic isn't a survey, nor a thread, but is rather both. Discussing the complexities that multi-classing brings to the mix is best done outside of a survey format, such as this thread. Thanks!

Just to put some more emphasis on sirgogs' statement and Ellis':
Nerfing character abilities without scaling down mob stats will be a nerf like many fear but somehow expect. Tuning down certain abilities is not a cry for them to be OP rather a cry for them NOT to be the only viable/fun option, since many feel, melee characters or oldschool characters (pure lvl. 20 class x e.g.) are not contributing within the context of self sufficiency and what is needed in epic elite.

[Daze]

27 pages yet?

nope

[Drwaz99]

I did want to answer the criticism about the survey not including multi-classing: Yes, that is correct. The survey focuses on things that fit best into a numbered survey format. Which is why this topic isn't a survey, nor a thread, but is rather both. Discussing the complexities that multi-classing brings to the mix is best done outside of a survey format, such as this thread. Thanks!

The problem with that is when it is presented to the decision makers, the survey will be more visible since it's easier to convert into graphic aids. That will put a much larger emphasis on a aspect (relative power of a single class) that is relatively minor when it comes to character balance in the over all scheme of things. It's a proven fact that people tend weigh things they can see (graphs, charts, etc) much more heavily than other types of reports. It's much harder to translate written feedback to graphic aid since it's much more varied and diverse.

Decision makers (those above the Dev pay grade) need to read the thread and take notes. Not have others take notes for them or rely on reports from people such as yourself (I'm not saying you would distort things, just things get lost in translation). If they did that, they wouldn't need a survey, especially a survey that has a huge potential of going in the absolute wrong direction.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

I don't think we need balance across characters. DDO is based on Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D 3.5), and we never really had balance in the tabletop game, but it all kind of works out.

A level one fighter is generally more powerful than a level one wizard. But a level 18 wizard is much more powerful than a level 18 fighter, usually. In any case, it's all situational.

To me, balance comes from grouping and the party makeup.

Balance in PNP/Tabletop came not from rules or builds it came in the form of the Dungeon Master who could bend/re-interpret rules and fudge die rolls behind the DM screen.

A good DM can make the weakest gimpiest character feel like a hero and the Elf Archer (you know the class from the early Dragon mag) feel foolish for ONLY having a bow...

There is no DM in DDO...

However, if there was what would it look like?

Maybe a subroutine that randomly assigns a value to each party member based on class levels then calculates and assigns +/- modifier spread to Mob Saving Throws/To Hit/Damage/Spell DCs/Spot/Listen on a narrow scale like +1 to -3 for weaker (low calculated mod) party composition on Normal Difficulties and maybe +5 to -2 for stronger (high calculated mod) party composition in Elite Difficulties.

[Fhauvial]

Balance in PNP/Tabletop came not from rules or builds it came in the form of the Dungeon Master who could bend/re-interpret rules and fudge die rolls behind the DM screen.

A good DM can make the weakest gimpiest character feel like a hero and the Elf Archer (you know the class from the early Dragon mag) feel foolish for ONLY having a bow...

There is no DM in DDO...

However, if there was what would it look like?

Maybe a subroutine that randomly assigns a value to each party member based on class levels then calculates and assigns +/- modifier spread to Mob Saving Throws/To Hit/Damage/Spell DCs/Spot/Listen on a narrow scale like +1 to -3 for weaker (low calculated mod) party composition on Normal Difficulties and maybe +5 to -2 for stronger (high calculated mod) party composition in Elite Difficulties.

Except we do have DMs in DDO. They're the developers that create the content. The role is largely the same, and so are the responsibilities. Only the context has changed.

(Not that I don't get your point)

[Daze]

DDO is not PnP .... much to the dislike of many. Barring the existence of a live full time DM for each instance on every server they need to code that leveling of the field..... hence this thread.

As for adapting random penalties ... no thanks. I like the idea that the hero of my story is not going to swing a greataxe and hit myself in the foot.

[Vargouille]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

[blackdoguk]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

Thanks for the opportunity to be heard. Turbine of the past 6 months is doing a much better job of this than they have in the past. Please don't nerf blitz though :p

[Daze]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

Here ya go ..

27 pages of walls of text posts to say something that takes a few lines.



All balanced means is every class/race should be just as playable as every other class/race:

Fix Bards

Fix Barbarian rage to be cast through ... give it a cost or some prereqs etc. that's fine.

Fix the thrower crit range ... it's almost the only thing that makes a halfling useful .... that and as sacrifices to the loot gods.

Fix melee in general ... how is it that a fighter in fullplate is squishy to trash mobs?



Done

[CeltEireson]

Except we do have DMs in DDO. They're the developers that create the content. The role is largely the same, and so are the responsibilities. Only the context has changed.

(Not that I don't get your point)

Aye except there is no way for the devs to know each individual and their characters strengths and weaknesses as you would in PnP, nor adjust things on the fly to keep the challenge at the right level. But simply not possible to do in am MMO so has to be done by other means.

You're never going to get a 'perfect balance' - best you can hope for is that things aren't too far out of whack. Will always be more powerful builds and there will always be builds that are total useless - given the flexibility of the rules there's no way it could be any different.

[Fhauvial]

Aye except there is no way for the devs to know each individual and their characters strengths and weaknesses as you would in PnP, nor adjust things on the fly to keep the challenge at the right level. But simply not possible to do in am MMO so has to be done by other means.

You're never going to get a 'perfect balance' - best you can hope for is that things aren't too far out of whack. Will always be more powerful builds and there will always be builds that are total useless - given the flexibility of the rules there's no way it could be any different.

That's what I mean by the context has changed. A different approach has to be taken in an MMO than you would as a DM in 3.5e. The best that can be hoped for is that players of equal skill playing different but well-built characters can perform at a reasonably close power level.

That's simply not the case right now.

[Hathorian]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

Sounds good. Based on the way you phrased the OP, though, it read like you were ready to start swinging the sledgehammer nerfs and just needed the green light from a few players to make it look like you had buy-in ahead of time.

[Feithlin]

Balance of characters is difficult to handle for some reasons:
* First, in a game like DDO, you need not only consider classes a whole, but also splashes.
* Second, it is mostly based on encounters. Ranged characters wouldn't be that strong if melees were not hit so strongly by mobs, or if ranged characters could be hit more easily by monsters. Evasion wouldn't be that strong if spells were not mostly based on ref saves and were not doing so much damage. Heavy armor wouldn't be so gimp if the main damage of bosses were not coming from spells, etc.
* Thirdly, it is due to some technical elements of the game itself. The changes made to AC and the ridiculous CR of enemies makes it noneffective to invest heavily your toon into AC, while at the same time, you have much simpler ways to improve your defense (incorporeality, displacement, dodge). With diminishing results, it's not very effective to improve your PRR above 120 or so, which reduces drastically the benefits of heavy armors and/or S&B.

Usually, the first layer of defense is worth more than dps (no point to do a lot of damage if you can't survive), but defense above that is a lot less important than dps because killing fast is already a defense (you take less hits). This leads to a high value of some elements: self healing is very strong (problem of barbarians who can hardly heal themselves, OP of bladeforged who are granted reconstruct almost for free), offensive EDs are usually considered (rightly) as a lot stronger than other destinies, and as I said above, distance fighting (with spells or ranged weapons) is very strong because you loose little dps (if any) but gain a lot of defense (by not being hit).

[Holleyz]

For one pure ranged rangers are mediocre , mediocre with there healing , spells , ranged dps !!

Same for a bow user in shiradi , there's a reason why the bow user picks fotw or dreadnought over it !!

A pure ranged ranger in shiradi is average !!

I've tried both builds for a while with best gear in slots for both builds and the monkcher comes out miles ahead !!

I don't need my now average guy screwed . They will try and scale down fotm builds and other 10k builds and screw pures who might actually need a boost atm to oblivion !!

Same with shiradi they won't look at the disparity between the classes using it !!

And by the way Rangers in pen and paper have to choose a line to specialize in !

Thank you. This is what I wanted to say but couldn't put it into words.

[Thar]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

A problem should be defined as if the said class can't complete a standard level appropriate epic quest in a resonable amount of time (45 min?) with a hireling on EN or EH getting most/all optionals.

[Teh_Troll]

It's good to see that after 27 pages we all agree that monks need to be nerfed.

[Holleyz]

If Monks was not overpowered then why is it that almost every character in the game is splashed with Monk? If Wizards was the over powered class then you would see almost every character in the game splashed with Wizard but you don't, You see almost every toon splashed with the Monk. So theres your answer on what is Overpowered and out of balance.

Oh and btw whoever it was that said that the Ranger is not the Ranged class needs to go back to the pen and paper and read the players handbook or the Rangers Handbook. In PnP you HAVE to choose the weapon you are going to specialize in.

[Daze]

It's good to see that after 27 pages we all agree that monks need to be nerfed.


You want an example of your obvious trolling? There it is.

I still enjoy the antics though.

[Scraap]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

shr notes pls.

Humor aside, a sum up of the takeaway thusfar would help in seeing what's sunk in, what may need further elaboration or back and forth discusison, and what may have been misunderstood.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Monks are fine
Monk splashes are fine

The problem is few classes have any reason to stay in them beyond level 6. Very few

Barbarians Bards Paladin beyond 6 all need additional abilities added to the level part of the class not just trees. Of course they all need a third tree as well @_@

Capstones for all classes need to be significantly better, and by better I mean +2 to stat of choice, 2 feats, Evasion levels of better. It does not have to be those things exactly but it has to be on par to give 'choices'

I remember that was an important discussion point. Choices. Nerfing monks wont increase hard choices, but making things that are terrible comparable WILL.


Also please before the time is up...please change all the epic moments in the Divine Sphere. They are absolutely trash due to their timers and restrictions in comparison to the others and I am afraid that if you don't do it now...you never will go back to change them.

[Daze]

If Monks was not overpowered then why is it that almost every character in the game is splashed with Monk? If Wizards was the over powered class then you would see almost every character in the game splashed with Wizard but you don't, You see almost every toon splashed with the Monk. So theres your answer on what is Overpowered and out of balance.

Oh and btw whoever it was that said that the Ranger is not the Ranged class needs to go back to the pen and paper and read the players handbook or the Rangers Handbook. In PnP you HAVE to choose the weapon you are going to specialize in.

by that reasoning every front loaded class should be nerfed ... including rangers.

Monks do get a lot at low level but you have to jump through hoops to reap all the rewards. No heavy armor, no shields, weapons list is limited, weight restrictions etc etc.

Seems to me the payoff is worth the hassle. How is that broken exactly?

[Teh_Troll]

Joke aside what's broken really comes down to stuff stacking that probably shouldn't. it's especially bad with front-loaded classes.

[Fhauvial]

Oh and btw whoever it was that said that the Ranger is not the Ranged class needs to go back to the pen and paper and read the players handbook or the Rangers Handbook. In PnP you HAVE to choose the weapon you are going to specialize in.

That's not how it was implemented in DDO, but you're right. Improved Combat Style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm), halfway down.

Edit: If you read the feat description for Manyshot though, a Fighter would actually fire more arrows/Standard Action (at least until the Ranger maxed out his arrows per BAB bonus).

[Holleyz]

Fine keep the monkeys Idc but at least either make them choose manyshots OR 10k stars but don't let them have both. A pure build ranger don't get both, so why should the monk? And while I'm on it how about better spells for the Ranger class. I mean really the only spells we have that's even worth the sp to cast is rams might and freedom of movement. Our cure serious wounds suck and all the other spells we have are just plain useless.

[Fhauvial]

Fine keep the monkhkins

Fixed that for you. ^^

[Holleyz]

No I take that back. Pure builds should be more powerful than hybrids or multiclassed characters. The pure builds in the game are becoming extinct. And because of the multiclassing no one groups anymore because everyone can solo. No one needs anyone else. If you want to play a single player game go play a playstation. But back to my point, the pure builds in pen and paper was more powerful than the multiclassed characters so how is it that now in the game the multiclassed has exceeded the pure build in every way? I'm not sure about this (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) but in PnP didn't the multiclass need more xp to level? And they didn't get action points as often as the pure builds did? Like I said I might be wrong, its been almost 20 years since I have played PnP

[Holleyz]

That's not how it was implemented in DDO, but you're right. Improved Combat Style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm), halfway down.

Edit: If you read the feat description for Manyshot though, a Fighter would actually fire more arrows/Standard Action (at least until the Ranger maxed out his arrows per BAB bonus).

THANK YOU! I knew I had read it somewhere but didn't know how or where to find it. I didn't want to go to my closet and dig our all my 3rd E books to look it up either lol

[GoldyGopher]

My main character is a Dex build hybrid Pally, Rogue and Monk, the basis of the build was created when the DDO Level cap was 14. I have played her a long time.
I have acknowledged for two years that she is a relic from a by-gone era. The moment that Lolth was created as a rock stable mob who floated off an asteroid the build was just a half step this side of useless. However at that point I had played her for three years, hard to step away when we kept hearing that changes were coming that "should bring balance to the game."
With the release of Shadowfell Conspiracy I determined it was time to respec my build, as soon as I acquire the correct gear it was time for another TR. Unfortunately she is the unlucky character who did not get a raiders box (I have multiple level 4 bank toons that received two of them, go figure, yes I bugged it) so I have been grinding CITW looking for something, 4 Epic Reincarnations later and 47 Runs, still no .... Well you get the idea.

So why is this character broken, I mean gimped?
One Word - Kiting.
Can't DPS what you can't catch.

Kiting has changed the game and thrown the character balance out of whack. Each of my ER have tried different stat/skill/feats setups trying to put this character into a position so they are not dead-weight in the party. Currently she is setup for the release of U21 Patch 1 and the Divine Crusader. However after looking at it Divine Crusader on Lamannia I had decided it was time to say "frell it" and just TR my character, without a specific weapon from a raid that hardly anyone runs anymore. Then suddenly this Topic pops up, so I am going to hold off a week, two or three more CITW aren't going to kill me, it might kill some of my guldies toons, but that's another story.

So I spent the weekend thinking about Character Balance. Why doesn't it work. Why are there a small handful of useful builds, a dozen or so variations on those builds and everything else dead weight?

Character classes are front loaded
When DDO:S was initially conceived the game had a level cap 10, today the level cap is 28 and going to be 30 by the end of the year.
So when the game was originally released a multi-class character had to take 30 to 40% of its investment in class levels to get a benefit from a second class. Today you need to take 20% investment in two additional classes to get the same benefit.
In some versions of PnP D&D if you multiclass you "could" (not that it always happened) lose some of your benefits from specific classes, which doesn't happen here in DDO.

The Advent of Enhancements
Originally in DDO:S we could take FOUR enhancements and we spent hours agonizing over which minor little bump was more special and appropriate for our builds.
First came Module 3.3 - Academy Training and then Update 19 - Shadowfell Conspiracy - both of which overhauled the Enhancement system.

Epic Destiny
It's already been noted several times that the Epic Destinies are unequal in the eyes of the player base.

Generic Epic Levels
I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread, so I will bring it up. I totally understand what Turbine was trying to accomplish with ED and Epic Levels, but the generic levels mean that all characters "advance as one" on this front. It makes no difference whether you are a Rogue, Wizard or Barbarian you all get the same options as an Epic Character.

Epic Elite Mob Damage
Dead Horse

So how would I address
Honestly this topic is far too complex to discuss in detail at this level.

Epic Mob to hit
When the AC pass occurred we heard
Overall Summary:
With the new combat formulas, we’re hoping to have Armor Class matter at all levels, for every character. Each point of Armor Class that you gain will help you mitigate damage, whether it’s your 17^th point or your 117^th. Armors provide increased Armor Class bonuses as well as Physical Resistance Rating. It’s not really possible to reach the 95% plateau anymore, but a high Armor Class character’s survivability will still be high, and the formula is much more forgiving to middling-AC characters.
Which is totally not true.
Numerous rumors have persisted that the problem is EE CR levels which have a multiplier of something like 1.9 to determine a mobs To-hit-Bonus. Let see a CR level 80 mob with a to-hit-bonus of 150 plugged into our formula (Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) would require a character to wear armor with a value of 325 to be only hit every 4th swing.
Mob's Attack Bonuses need to be adjusted. Time consuming and tedious I am sure, but we have been told that it is now possible to do this manually on a case by case basis.
If you are going to modify these numbers lets have some variety. I have no issue with a Archer having a better chance of hitting my character with an arrow vs the giant swinging his stone maul, as long as the damage I take is varied as well. Eight of small 80-100 point a shot arrows = one cronk by that big maul.
Is this a low hanging fruit that can be done by an intern?
Time to add specific Epic Levels
I understand that you probably don't want to add thirteen classes right now, but a Arcane, Divine, Melee, Specialist class would probably take 33% of the time and solve 80% of the problem.
I would put a restriction on it with something like: 5 Character class levels opens each of the four epic classes, with each 2 levels adds another available epic level.
Class Level Epic Class
5 1
7 2
9 3
11 4
13 5
15 6
17 7
19 8 +

Each Class should be able to choose from up to two options in this model
Artificer | Wizard - Arcane | Specialist
Barbarian | Ranger | Rogue - Melee | Specialist
Bard - Arcane | Melee
Cleric | Favored Soul - Arcane - Divine
Druid | Monk | Paladin - Divine | Melee
Fighter - Melee
Sorcerer - Arcane

Don't have enough character levels, you get the generic Epic Level.
The Arcane could provide 100 Spell Points, 4 HP, and 1 Skill points in Spellcraft and 4 skill points to spend just like normal skill points
The Divine could provide 80 Spell Points, 8 HP and 1 Skill Point in Heal and 3 skill points to spend.
The Melee could provide 12 HP, full BAB an extra feat at 4, 7, and 10 (not back loaded) plus 2 skill points
The Specialist could provide 6 HP, 12 Skill points and bonuses to dodge.
BAB would be varied.

Also each specific level could generate Enhancement points that can only be spent in Class Trees that have a tier 5 enhancement.

Epic Destinies Pass
A complete pass of all the Epic Destines needs to occur.
More options, just to point out a change to US that would make it more attractive to more players, Shield Prowess could have a second option, Dodge Prowess, or a third option, DR Prowess, that gives players who don't want to use a shield options to spend points and not waste them.
Too many [cough almost all cough] of the current Epic Destinies pigeon hole a character into specific builds. many builds by default right now are little more that dead weight in a party.

Character Class Restrictions
Many classes have minor boosts that become big rewards. To me the fix is add the requirement that a majority of your heroic classes need to be in that class to get those rewards. Divine Health, Monk Stances, so on and so forth.

Multipliers
Going back to my gimp character, I get 8d6+18 sneak attack damage, doing an additional 46 points per swing. Sounds great until you remember a low level EE mob has 6,000 HP and a boss 1,000,000. Yet that Imbue arrow, 10K Stars, *** are all mutliplers. This probably needs to be in an Epic Destiny but a passive that provides 2,3,or 4 times my sneak attack damage (46*4=184) per swing would double my DPS output.
Several things have modifiers that need to be double (shield prowess providing +50% should be tripled.
This isn't just Sneak attack, but divine healing, AC bonuses, the list is long but you get the idea.

damage pots
In many other games I can add specific short turn damage boosts but slopping oil or holy water or ... on my weapons. Right now we can get a buff from one class, but the ability to put holy water on my war axe or fire oil or ... short turn buffs that players them selves manage.

Nerfs
In general I am a player, I hat nerfs, and for players who have invested hundreds of hours to gear up a toon that you want to nerf in seconds, there is going to be rage, and yes some people will leave the game. But as a reasonable person the nerf bat needs to come out for things that rhyme with ten-thousand cars, many fought, caster's fritz, chirashi cambrian, the bunk crass, or american overtoad. A number of small nerfs and balances is far greater than big nerfs.

[Barhai]

As many have said, the quests makes a lot of character choices worthless. If I may point out a few cases that have not been addressed as much as the rest.

1) Casting.
a) nuking: or "why do we end up playing shiradi so much?". Mobs HP are too high for a regular nuking spell to be a efficient use of SP. For high level content that is true even in EH. A polar ray cast by a water savant with all gear possible only does around 1300 average damage for 20 sp. So in the neighborhood of 160 sp per mob in EE gianthold, assuming you survive because even using the 4 more sp efficient nuke spells that is a long time killing a mob. Neither magister nor draconic really increase the damage dealt by nuking spells (we're talking less than 10% increase). So if we don't use shiradi our damage at L28 is only 10-20% higher than it was at L20.
If you add the fact that mobs save on ref save too often (but less often than fort/will save at least) and shiradied MM familly really start looking as the only viable nuking spells.
Energy burst is nice in EH but in EE or even L26+EH it does less damage than trash mob HP, with the timer on it it cease to be a solution for staying in anything but shiradi.
So spamming MM, FM, CM and a few other spells, in shiradi. Well that means we don't need 20 Lv of wizard/sorc to cast that! That 2 lv of monk or rogue for evasion looks really tempting doesn't it?
If there were ways to increase significantly nuking damage in epic aside from shiradi then nukers wouldn't all be evasion shiradis.
b)Dc casting... All around high saves in EE and some EH+metric truckload of enemies at once in the new quests= forget it. You simply cannot use instakills with their long cooldown when there is that many mobs around. And neither CC and necro casting are helped by the insane amount of orange/red named mob in some quests.
If every mobs had ONE weak save then DC casting would be back and fun.
2)Melee
mobs with 12k+ HP that hit for 200+ per hit and that are immune to the tactical abilities of regular builds= need 25-28% dodge+25% incorporeal+50% displacement to survive melee. The hit bonus of high level mob is so high that it make AC have very limited effect on your chance of getting missed.
The casters in high level quests are brutal and you need evasion and really high save to stay alive.
So that's why monk 6/ paly2/kensei12 are the only melee left
And even cocoon is not enough to heal when there's so many mobs hitting so hard at the same time.
That's why the surviving melee are bladeforged.
If the mobs missed more often against AC there would be a lot more different style of melee. And a lot more people going back to melee.

[Seikojin]

What ever some other guy's build is that is getting more kills than me needs to be nerfed and nerfed hard!

That is what I am reading here.
Since apparently everything is OP.



Although one common thread is nerf (ruin) multiclassing...especially with Monks.

Ruining popular builds should never be a goal.
I say this, and I never run a popular build.
I say this and I hate the fact that everyone plays FotM builds.

Because I think it is not right to totally kill someone's favorite toon.


But.... I have also said in the past that anything that gets overused should be changed.
So if everyone is playing Monchers for instance...... find out why. And make a change to the game so people will play a wider variety of builds.
Preferably a change that doesn't kill Monchers in the process.

But IMO, tying Manyshot and 10K Stars cooldown together will not kill Monchers. It simply removes an advantage that only they have. The Moncher still works, still has many other advantages. But is no longer the best archer just because of 10K stars ability.


Then there is armor and robes.
IMO, beef up armor and it does not remove any ability the robe wearing Monk splash has, but makes other options more appealing.

Simply add a bunch of PRR to armor.
IMO, tie it to BaB.
This way the low level guy doesn't become invulnerable, but the high level guy can take a bunch of hits in EE before he needs to find some healing.

Light, Medium, and Heavy armors should add more PRR with heavy armor adding the most.
(and fix Mithral Full Plate to count as heavy armor.... and maybe some others should work that way too.)

Than there is DR.
Brb DR (and WF?) should be a significant advantage.
I also think actively blocking should give more DR as well.

Shields.
Need a major buff. Defensively.
Again can be tied to BaB somehow.
One thing IMO is shields and especially tower shields should offer more protection from missile attacks.


BTW, these opinions are coming from a guy who plays Rangers.
Light Armor, TWF, Bows..... I never wear Heavy or Medium Armor and I rarely use shields... and never a tower shield.
Yet I think these things should be beefed up even though I don't use them.



Here's another off the wall idea:
Why not add Kensei to the Monk enhancement options and add another offensive option for Fighters.

This would give pure fighters a DPS option that might be more attractive than mixing Monk levels, and give Monks more reason to stay pure as well. (hard to explain my reasoning, but it basically is that I have no issue with pure Monks being supermen, but I have a big issue with everybody playing Monk mixes and gaining super powers from it.....I'd like to see less /Mnks and more pure everybody... not from nerfs but from buffs)

And beef up capstones.


This is what I was seeing as well.

I think Armor feats should contain the juice to beef armor. At levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29;
Cloth/robes ~ No AC boost, no PRR boost, no dr, no resist, no caps.
Light ~ +1 ac, +1prr, +1 dr/-, +1 elemental resist, usual stat caps.
Medium ~ +2 ac, +1.5prr, +2 dr/-, +2 elemental resist, usual stat caps.
Heavy ~ +3 ac, +2prr, +3 dr/-, 3 elemental resist, usual stat caps.

I think all shields should get a boost to resist as well, passive and active (when blocking). At levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30:
Passive; +1 ac, +1 prr, +1 dr/-, +2 elemental resistance
Blocking: +2 ac, +2 prr, +2 dr/-, +4 elemental resistance

Two weapon blocking should make your offhand weapon count as a shield (this would boost pallys, fighters, and tempests most gutted pre's).

I love the monks using 10k stars and manyshot. I think that is awesome. However, I think manyshot and 10k stars in their own right are broken. It would be easier to make them a toggle that offers +X to doubleshot based on class level and leave it at that. This would reduce the math of one system while promoting an inherently easier one.
Manyshot: When active, provides +25% to doubleshot; +an additional 10% for every Ranger level.
10,000 stars: When active, provides a +25% to doubleshot a ranged attack; + an additional 10% for every monk level.

Or make them passives, if stances is too strict. You can math out the chances if a pure Ranged doubleshooter would be doing 5 arrows per attack in this way.

I think melee attacks should auto-intim with a d20+the damage done; when executed. Throw intim skill on timer. I think this would help a ton for melee crowd control. Or mix and match, have some abilities that auto bluff, diplo, or intim with damage replacing the skill portion.

Bards need a lot of work and so do barbarians.

Bard:
They need a way to add their perform skill tot heir spell dc's. Their enhancement trees are good, but they need some boosting everywhere. Like every single enhancement needs touchup. All tied to bard levels.
Their songs need work. They need to boost better. The feat can be fixed to provide more gains, then the enhancements can stack on top.

Barbarian
Like mentioned above, they need more dr. Pretty much all of their abilities in enhancements needs touching too. I think barbs rage should be boosted significantly. Offer more dr while raged, offer resistance boosts to elements while raged. All tied to barb levels.


Capstones:
I think they should boost the enhancements in their trees in addition tot he boosts they currently provide. +1 here and there, or +1. Maybe a 10% boost here and there, or +20%. Depending on what the enhancement does. So like a stat increase, the capstone would add 1 or 2 more. Crit chance on spells? There are 5 tiers? The capstone would add 1% to each of them, for 5% overall. Etc, etc. I think this level of boost would make pure viable for its role, without penalizing MCers enough to make everyone go pure.

[Daze]

Using synergy is what makes multiclasses work. Take that away and it would be broken. Multiclassing for evasion is older than DDO ...

Again ... 10k stars requires Ki which requires you to be centered which as I said before has it's various drawbacks. Penalizing those that manage to make it work, even if there are a massive amount of those individuals, is not a good plan.

Adding stuff to capstones is a good way to keep pure builds viable. I'm all for increasing them but complaining about pure rangers being outclassed by monkchers in ranged combat is about as effective as complaining about shuriken experts vs other thrower builds.... it just doesn't matter as a comparison due to the requirements to keep those benefits monks provide.

If you want to play a pure ranger go for it. They get things monks don't automatically ... Manyshot, imp precise shot, two weapon fighting line etc etc. Playing to your builds strengths with skill should not be penalized.

[Holleyz]

by that reasoning every front loaded class should be nerfed ... including rangers.

Monks do get a lot at low level but you have to jump through hoops to reap all the rewards. No heavy armor, no shields, weapons list is limited, weight restrictions etc etc.

Seems to me the payoff is worth the hassle. How is that broken exactly?

You don't think a pure build human ranger doesn't have to jump through hoops as well from level 1 all the way to level 20 and beyond? Just like Monks they only can wear light armor (oooh wow I feel protected in this) just like monks the archer ranger cant use a shield and a bow at the same time now can they? and as the ranger may not have weight restrictions thanks to his str isn't it true the monk gets more stars (or Arrows) on 10k stars based on their wisdom? Well the Ranger don't get an extra arrow based on his dex or str. And the Ranger cant use 10k stars AND manyshots now can they? But hey its ok its allright lets nerf the archer class for the 3rd time now instead of getting rid ot the root of the problem and that being monks.

[Gratch]

Many of us play this game for the vast number of class/racial/destiny selections available. It's both sad when there's one overwhelming class/build to play as well as one group of classes to never play... though as you can only touch so many things at a time I always expect some of both. Since I'm not a big fan of nerfs, I'd rather say what I think needs buffing.

Barbarians. They should be the highest DPS in this game - though they should also have offsets to that DPS. Right now they have too many offsets (weak self-healing, self-damaging) with only minimal bonuses to the damage they deliver.

Paladins. Does anyone take more than 4 paladin anymore?

Somewhat bards. Thanks for some of the recents fixes.

Level 18 and Level 20 core class enhancements. Need a thick revamp. Things that don't stack, don't work, or don't do enough really need to be revamped. Along the lines of the recent rogue capstone buffs (though I haven't had a chance to build a 20 rogue to try those out).

Abilities that kick in at half and quarter HP brackets. The only one of these I like is Guardian Angel because it does so much to save your bacon. The all out worst of these ever is Vengeful Magic. Giving the healer big bonus damage while below 50% HP just sets up a fight between FVS'es trying to stay or get at low HP and the rest of the party trying to heal their healer. How about in exchange:
Avenging Magic: Activate to receive a +50% Sacred bonus Spell Critical Damage Multiplier with Fire, Force, Light, and Physical damage spells and 200% hate for 1 minute. Any damage taken will reduce the spell damage bonus to 10%. Cooldown 2 minutes.

[MadGardener]

I would like to add a few more comments.
I play a lot of hours on many different toons and have no one that is uber, I enjoy running with the uber toons, they have worked very hard at making a great characters. I do some Elite content as a group but personally can't do Epic Elite without party support. One of the reasons I do not do much EE content is I don't like running in capped destinies and not getting any experience, one of the big drives for me is xps, if they changed the experience for capped destines, say half exps to adjacent spheres that would be different story.
a revamp to destiny stuff would be great, some worked, many did not and running in no exp capped destiny is....well no exps towards destinies (it takes a long time for me to cap characters so multiply epic TRing is not high, so exps to epic tr is low...not fond of the system they came up with)

SO my point is for character balance are we talking about Elite content only?

My opinion is that this post is spending to much time on the top few % of toons and not on general play. there will always be some tweaks but leave the nerfing out.

having said that I feel that I am the average ballpark of many struggling players, for me I want to be hardy (not die all the time...not doing very well at this goal lol) contribute and be active with the group. so at the expense of being laughed at I will stat what many of my toons look like (epic toons only).....AC ranges from 50-70 have one tank that has 120 but is low DPS so nothing bothers him anyhow. average damage is 70-100 per swing, the rogues does another 100 on sneak and almost all of them have some burst effect that give 200-300. Granted these can go up if i want to have a capped 28 toon in capped line but I like growing characters. spell dc's range from high 30's to my best a low 50's necro wiz(lv28). Again I am told this can go up but without lots of raid? gear or reading a lot of posts on min/max casting, but is the point to have the best min/max toon w/super gear to be viable?


IMO this is about character balance to help make most builds viable to be fun and effective to play at all levels, leave the nerfing and work on other stuff, let all the classes bring something unique to the table and allow good toons to be effective. The overall goal is to complete a quest so our adversities are the obstacle and they determine what you need to be. if the game stats many quest need evasion to be effective with massive dps and DC's then that is what will happen. let us assume that the quest design current and future remain without a fix, then to make good characters effective , fun and viable the a few major changes required.
A completive lv20 capstone, something that competes with evasion and two feats (2lvs of monk) example cleric or FvS lv 20 might get an addition perk of eternal life, once per rest if you are brought to death's door instead u are returned to full health. this is just an example of something powerful and unique and may not fit with DDO's vision.
increase basic damage: assuming epic mobs have 10's of thousands of hit points then basic damage (melee, ranged, caster) will have to scale up, no idea how you do this while not having a greater increase to the top damage changed.
fix or strengthen unique abilities: example the poor bard, let the music flow, strengthen the songs let them be mass effect...(I feel this class could use an overhaul but wow where to begin)
I realizing as I am writing this many of these things are not scaling from heroic to epic is the big issue, a few points of damage from a bard song at lv 10 is not the same as few points for epic content
scaling: items like potions (epic heal potions maybe *10 base you can buy for plat), heroic abilities that scale in epic, etc.

:( looks like i left to long and half my post disapeared o well will post this and maybe if i have time write the 2nd half.


good luck devs:cool:

[GoldyGopher]

Here ya go ..

Fix the thrower crit range ... it's almost the only thing that makes a halfling useful .... that and as sacrifices to the loot gods.

Done

Um, it's Dwarves we sacrifice to the loot god (22 times), and Half-Elfs in dresses (10 times).
No wonder the loot gods aren't pleased.

[Daze]

You don't think a pure build human ranger doesn't have to jump through hoops as well from level 1 all the way to level 20 and beyond? Just like Monks they only can wear light armor (oooh wow I feel protected in this) just like monks the archer ranger cant use a shield and a bow at the same time now can they? and as the ranger may not have weight restrictions thanks to his str isn't it true the monk gets more stars (or Arrows) on 10k stars based on their wisdom? Well the Ranger don't get an extra arrow based on his dex or str. And the Ranger cant use 10k stars AND manyshots now can they? But hey its ok its allright lets nerf the archer class for the 3rd time now instead of getting rid ot the root of the problem and that being monks.

No they don't jump through hoops. You can take armor feats and sacrifice evasion but get everything else.

Light armor > robes in both PRR and AC.

Wisdom is a stat rangers get for mana ... you don't have to pump it to 42 to be effective. You should be glad manyshot is not a stat based bonus. Again rewards for effort are on par.

You have the option of putting on a shield and not losing all of your abilities. Not saying it's a good idea but the option is there. More to the point .. your weapon selection is FAR greater than anything including a kensai monk who is limited to only 1 weapon type in addition to the monk weapons.

If manyshot worked with shurikens you might have an argument but it doesn't.

You pay for that versatility. It's your choice to play a ranger. Play it well and remember the nerf bat swings both ways.

[Daze]

Um, it's Dwarves we sacrifice to the loot god (22 times), and Half-Elfs in dresses (10 times).
No wonder the loot gods aren't pleased.

Well that explains the lack of named loot in the Fire on Thunder Peak.

[slarden]

Just to draw more attention to this:

Character Balance Survey (http://ddobugs.turbine.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=24037&surveyID=332&type=web)
We love survey answers. Flood us with information, please!

Thank you for the thread. I filled out the survey but it is missing one of the main elements of character power. Multi-classing vs. pure biulds. The most powerful builds in the game are all multi-class builds. Capstones need some love.

[Candela90]

No I take that back. Pure builds should be more powerful than hybrids or multiclassed characters. The pure builds in the game are becoming extinct. And because of the multiclassing no one groups anymore because everyone can solo. No one needs anyone else. If you want to play a single player game go play a playstation. But back to my point, the pure builds in pen and paper was more powerful than the multiclassed characters so how is it that now in the game the multiclassed has exceeded the pure build in every way? I'm not sure about this (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) but in PnP didn't the multiclass need more xp to level? And they didn't get action points as often as the pure builds did? Like I said I might be wrong, its been almost 20 years since I have played PnP

THIS.

Someone also mentioned wizards needing a buff - I wont agree here. Casual wizard players may need a buff but maxed out wizard in one of the most powerful character in DDO anbd can instantkill 95% of mobs in quest before you get to them close enough to hit them :P.
Capstones should be boosted because they provide nothing really cool compared to like +10 or more from 2 pal levels or much PRR and evasion and stance with +2 to stat from monk lvl.
Divines need DPS/CC/instantkill buff because no one needs healing anymore so at least make them able to be dps/instantkill characters that are worth having in party.

I dont agree that monk needs nerfing. Monk SPLASHES need nefring, pure monk should get a boost :P

[SebastianG]

Capstones for pure class characters need to be improved. I don't think pure class builds should be more overpowered than multi-class characters but choosing one or the other should be a tougher choice - do I want this benefit at the expense of not getting that benefit? As it is now, the choice isn't difficult at all. Stretch out the class requirement per tier in the enhancements (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, at least) and all tiers should be class level only, never character level. Make monk forms (still auto-granted) class level not character level. Actually, most things that are character level should be class level.

[Sam1313]

We don't need any classes Nerfed or Downgraded. A few of the classes needs more love from the Developers. Bards needs some more help. Fighters needs some help. Barbarians needs some help. Monks are fine where they are at. Rogues seems fine where they are at also. Rangers just needs the OLD Slaying Arrows back and better spells. Clerics needs some help swimming and jumping. Favored Souls seems to be ok where they are at. Paladins needs some help. Druids are ok where they are at. Sorcerers are ok where they are at. Wizards needs a complete overhaul. These guys only have a few good spells out of a whole book. The Wizard should be the MOST FEARED class in the game period. These guys are interacting with demons, chemicals and things from other realms and outside of our Universe that would kill any of the other classes.

And at last ALL the characters AC actually NEEDS to work properly in the game. For me I think this is the most broken thing. Really what is the AC for in DDO? I know what it was used for in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, but does it even work in the online game? To me it doesn't.

[Thar]

It's good to see that after 27 pages we all agree that monks need to be nerfed.

nooo nerfs... nerfs make people mad. mad people leave for other games. people like monks as monks are fun, bring other characters up in power to be fun. barbarians were fun once. now they are a fighter without feats that can get a minisule amount of hit pts from raging but then can't self heal with cocoon. their dr was supposed to make up the difference but now dr is common for more than they have. Their DR should be PRR bonus instead. inante 10%+.

[Ancient]

Energy burst is nice in EH but in EE or even L26+EH it does less damage than trash mob HP
I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.


All around high saves in EE and some EH+metric truckload of enemies at once in the new quests= forget it. You simply cannot use instakills with their long cooldown when there is that many mobs around.
I've seen instakill work just fine in EEs... in fact, if DC casting gets much more of of a boost we are going to be back into the palemaster is a demi-god playbalance.

[oradafu]

nooo nerfs... nerfs make people mad. mad people leave for other games. people like monks as monks are fun, bring other characters up in power to be fun. barbarians were fun once. now they are a fighter without feats that can get a minisule amount of hit pts from raging but then can't self heal with cocoon. their dr was supposed to make up the difference but now dr is common for more than they have. Their DR should be PRR bonus instead. inante 10%+.

So everyone agrees agree that Medium and Heavy Armor characters should somehow gain and use Evasion (if not Improved Evasion) and their Dodge gets uncapped? Good, nice to see everyone is on the same page now. No nerfs to builds, just make sure all builds are able to gain Evasion, AC, PRR, DR and access to Incorporeal.

[Fhauvial]

We don't need any classes Nerfed or Downgraded. A few of the classes needs more love from the Developers. Bards needs some more help. Fighters needs some help. Barbarians needs some help. Monks are fine where they are at. Rogues seems fine where they are at also. Rangers just needs the OLD Slaying Arrows back and better spells. Clerics needs some help swimming and jumping. Favored Souls seems to be ok where they are at. Paladins needs some help. Druids are ok where they are at. Sorcerers are ok where they are at. Wizards needs a complete overhaul. These guys only have a few good spells out of a whole book. The Wizard should be the MOST FEARED class in the game period. These guys are interacting with demons, chemicals and things from other realms and outside of our Universe that would kill any of the other classes.

And at last ALL the characters AC actually NEEDS to work properly in the game. For me I think this is the most broken thing. Really what is the AC for in DDO? I know what it was used for in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, but does it even work in the online game? To me it doesn't.

Wizards in PnP were horribly broken and could out-shine almost any other character. They become a serious problem for DMs as a Tier I character if other members of the party are Tier III or IV. I don't think they need a buff. That's just going to widen the gap between the classes even more, which is NOT going to help the game.

Clerics don't need help swimming and jumping (and I have two of them). That's always been one of their weaknesses.

The defensive system needs an overhaul. I think everyone agrees with that.

Paladins and Bards are currently Tier IV-VI characters. This needs to change.

[JOTMON]

Other things to look at...


Offer an improved range of Epic Feats:
(same category as Epic Toughness)
-Epic Toughness change Prerequisite CON to 19 so non heavy vested con based toons can access (remove toughness pre-req)
-Evasion - Prerequisite: Dex 19 = successful Reflex saving throw against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage (doesn't stack with class evasion)
-Divine Grace - Prerequisite: CHA 19 = CHA bonus to Saves (same as paladin does not stack with paladin)
-Divine Mana Regen Passive - Regen Mana 1 SP/min per Divine Caster Level.
-Divine Shield - passive - Absorbs Melee damage into healing energy 5% chance
-Divine Step - Abundant step/wings effect 2 minute cooldown.
.. add some more stuff... like things that dipping classes might provide.. Epic should tighten the gap between classes.


Enhancement line-Divine Archery - Prerequisite 18 Ranger = reduces manyshot cooldown by 30 seconds
Remove same stat abilities from epic destinies beyond the first 2., so no 5x Int from tree can do 2 int and mix for rest.
Monk centering blocks/disables rage effects.. a raged monk should break monk centered stance... apply to fury and centered kensai as well.
Shirardi.. cap max damage.


Add Deflection properties to armor = Armor now provides a 10% light ,20% medium ,30% heavy, reduction to damage while standing still.


Mobs should not be able to spam spells incessantly.. give them a cooldown.
Reduce mob damage and 70+ save requirements for evading 1shot kill spells... such as EE WGU...
1 shot damage kills on a player with full life and 800hp shouldn't happen. its not fun.. just means I have to have evasion and have to have Paly saves..
I ran an evasion melee against Sarva Bellistrae in Thunderhome for flagging .. she spammed every element of Dragon breath attack no save, deals 400-800 damage .. I wish I was a moncher here..
EE Fire on Thunder Peak - seriously.. DA and multiple fast spawning circles of fire damage for 2k+.. even with Energy sheath, cloak and boots I was taking 800 hp damage and failing every evasion save. with 60's saves and evasion.
Change Mob design so in close toe-toe melee is not a detriment.. ie spells don't work at full effectiveness at point blank range.

The whole playing field does need some adjusting. but do it smart .. a surgeon doesn't use a bazooka to fix stuff..

[Delacroix21]

Monk are by NO means overpowered. Why do we see allot of monk splashes? The same reason we USED to see all the rogue splashes, evasion. Monk gets it with feats so wins.


Evasion is usefull in PnP, but not crazy so because you shouldn't be constantly encounter non-stop fireballs. Unfortunately in ddo you do (there are WAY to many casters and they hit to hard) that non-evasion toons can easily get raped.


We need to look at spell mitigation for non-evasion toons. I think shields should give PASSIVE elemental absorption (not just when blocking) that will help tanks with casters, and nerf in monster to-hit and damage will help their meele mitigation. Tanks may actually return to use in ddo!

[oradafu]

Monk centering blocks/disables rage effects.. a raged monk should break monk centered stance... apply to fury and centered kensai as well.
Shirardi.. cap max damage.


Add Deflection properties to armor = Armor now provides a 10% light ,20% medium ,30% heavy, reduction to damage while standing still.


Regarding Monk stances, I agree that raging should make Monks uncentered, similar to Paladins can't use their stances with any kind of rage. I'd go a step further and extend that Monk Stances don't work other classes stances, but that won't fly.

As for Deflection, you need to also include Shields in the discussion. In fact, any change to Armor needs to take shields into account also.

[Alfhild]

Monk are by NO means overpowered. Why do we see allot of monk splashes? The same reason we USED to see all the rogue splashes, evasion. Monk gets it with feats so wins.


Evasion is usefull in PnP, but not crazy so because you shouldn't be constantly encounter non-stop fireballs. Unfortunately in ddo you do (there are WAY to many casters and they hit to hard) that non-evasion toons can easily get raped.


We need to look at spell mitigation for non-evasion toons. I think shields should give PASSIVE elemental absorption (not just when blocking) that will help tanks with casters, and nerf in monster to-hit and damage will help their meele mitigation. Tanks may actually return to use in ddo!
How about armourr giving passive mitigation as well?
Total Arcane Spell Failiure of Shield + Armour -15% = passive elemental absorption?

[Sam1313]

I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.


I've seen instakill work just fine in EEs... in fact, if DC casting gets much more of of a boost we are going to be back into the palemaster is a demi-god playbalance.

I'd have to disagree with you man on this. Just because of this :https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438460-Nova-Shiradi-Palemaster-Supremacy-Shiradi-build That's not a TRUE Wizard. Take a Human pure build Wizard and see if he can do the same thing. The beefing up of the Wizard class I'm talking about is for Heroic content. Most NEW players to the game (Like myself at one time) Thought it would be cool to play a Wizard because in the pen and paper game the artwork made them out to be super cool. All the movies you watch that has a Wizard in them, makes them out to be almost god-like. All the books you read plays them up as almost God-like (Elminster, Gandolf to name a few) I struggled with my Wizard from level 1 all the way to level 23 then I true reincarnated him back again as a Wizard thinking ok the +2 to spell penetration will help him this life. WRONG! so Wrong. If it wasn't for my wife playing a Cleric and a really cool Ranger in our guild carrying him through his first life he would not have made it to 23. So here he is again at level 15 struggling again. So I've basically abandoned him and went and created my favorite class of character the Ranger. Took that Ranger to lvl 28 parked him there then built another Ranger took him to 23 several times now and TR'd him. He's now on his 3rd life as a pure build Ranger and can breeze through the heroic content like its his job. As for a human pure build wizard they rock until they run out of spell points after they run out of spell points they are DONE. So my dude just sits there at level 15 all alone until they fix that class. I'm not going to spend any more MONEY on him, not going to waste any more TIME on him UNTIL they get the Wizard class to where it needs to be at. I'm happy playing a Ranger, love that class anyways so no big deal to me.

But to the new players that come to this game its gonna crush them when they build their little Wizard then run Heytons Rest, just to get creamed. I have seen soooo many new potential player do this that its really scarry. New to the game I have a level 1 wizard he's gonna rock man then they run a few quests, What ends up happening is 1 of 2 things. 1. they delete it and build something else. OR 2. They quit the game and go off to something else like Elder Scrolls or World of Animecraft or Skyrim.

[Teh_Troll]

nooo nerfs... nerfs make people mad. mad people leave for other games. people like monks as monks are fun, bring other characters up in power to be fun. barbarians were fun once. now they are a fighter without feats that can get a minisule amount of hit pts from raging but then can't self heal with cocoon. their dr was supposed to make up the difference but now dr is common for more than they have. Their DR should be PRR bonus instead. inante 10%+.

Let them leave.

I'm willing to be Turbine is actually addressing this stuff now is because their game is so friggin broken it has already made people leave. I know many a barbarian enthusiast who no longer plays.

[Fhauvial]

Most NEW players to the game (Like myself at one time) Thought it would be cool to play a Wizard because in the pen and paper game the artwork made them out to be super cool. All the movies you watch that has a Wizard in them, makes them out to be almost god-like. All the books you read plays them up as almost God-like (Elminster, Gandolf to name a few)

I see your Wizard and raise you one Cleric.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Tni88oQhPWo/S2mjqJ4AdFI/AAAAAAAAARI/Oj9uU8rLdZ0/s1600/clerics.jpg

I'm done now. I swear.

[Tentaki]

Let them leave.

I'm willing to be Turbine is actually addressing this stuff now is because their game is so friggin broken it has already made people leave. I know many a barbarian enthusiast who no longer plays.

I'm actually the opposite, I actually started playing again after quitting for about a year because of the enhancement changes in U19 and the fact that it allowed me to make all sorts of new, weird builds and play around with all sorts of other abilities mixed in. New things are fun, and I like fun, so I started playing again.

I'd rather not have a lot of the fun things taken away, but rather I'd like new fun things added to the classes that aren't currently fun. In essence, adding new dimensions to barbarians, bards, paladins, *insert underpowered class here* will make me want to play those classes and keep me around longer in the game. I'm one of those people who build monk splashes into almost every build at the moment partially because monks really are powerful, but also because I enjoy stunning fists, floating and abundant stepping through the countryside and making things like a wizard/monk/fighter build where you float around silently as an unearthly specter, then smacking people with my fists at the rate of a million times a second. It pleases me.

If they made a barbarian build like the old Diablo 2 build where you built up attack and movement speed after every attack and let you tear around the coutryside as a rampaging blur of motion and chaos, I'd jump on that class in a heartbeat. Doubly so if it were also a ghost!

[Vamm]

I don't agree with some of this. Why remove a high CON pre-req and toughness to get epic toughness? Shouldn't the whole purpose of it to be for meaty characters to get meatier and not for squishies to get a random HP bump because they feel like it?

And an epic feat that gives you a Paladin's unique perk? To me, that just downgrades my desire to go Paladin.

I think the point of this thread is that each class should be worth playing as well as have that special function/purpose that another class can't easily duplicate. To encourage party cohesion and promote a mix of abilities that work well together when teamed up should be the goal of any MMO. It shouldn't be one overpowered character's show with everyone else along for the ride. Otherwise, why don't we all just go play Mass Effect or some other single-player experience of choice?

I do agree that a surgeon's touch vs. a bazooka would be more appropriate.

I'd be *really* curious what the breakdown of what the classes/races of 'regular' players across the entire base are. You would think that'd be extremely revealing on what is overpowered/underpowered given DDOs maturity.

I also agree with many posters that 'pure' classes should have more incentive to put them on par with multi-classes, likely in the form of a much better capstone. Let the choice of single vs. multi-class actually be a tough one instead of a no-brainer (funny I say that as my primary is a pure class fighter).

Anyway, I think the devs looking for this type of feedback is fantastic. Hoping good stuff comes from it. I did recommend in the survey comments and will do so here as well that it might be a good idea to link the survey on the launcher. Then those who don't read the forums regularly have a chance to participate as well and the devs get a better data sampling size.

Also, regarding the survey, might have been a good idea to have an "N/A" option, in the event you're not familiar with a particular ED or class. Wouldn't want to skew the data unnecessarily.


Other things to look at...

Offer an improved range of Epic Feats:
(same category as Epic Toughness)
-Epic Toughness change Prerequisite CON to 19 so non heavy vested con based toons can access (remove toughness pre-req)
-Evasion - Prerequisite: Dex 19 = successful Reflex saving throw against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage (doesn't stack with class evasion)
-Divine Grace - Prerequisite: CHA 19 = CHA bonus to Saves (same as paladin does not stack with paladin)
-Divine Mana Regen Passive - Regen Mana 1 SP/min per Divine Caster Level.
-Divine Shield - passive - Absorbs Melee damage into healing energy 5% chance
-Divine Step - Abundant step/wings effect 2 minute cooldown.
.. add some more stuff... like things that dipping classes might provide.. Epic should tighten the gap between classes.

.....

The whole playing field does need some adjusting. but do it smart .. a surgeon doesn't use a bazooka to fix stuff..

[mons]

I'd like to add another broad area to that list: pure-class versus multi-class.

I feel that not only should every single class be viable and able to contribute, but that every single class when pure-classed should be viable and able to contribute.

For me, that should be the basic starting point for balancing classes, and multi-class measured against that yard-stick.

I don't mind if someone figures out clever, synergistic combinations that are a bit more powerful overall, but there should be trade-offs. Multi-classing should never be a no-brainer, and pure-class should never be an outright bad choice.

Traditionally in D&D, multi-classes, being less specialized, had less raw power, balanced with more versatility. It seems in some cases in DDO, they get more versatility AND more power, making pure-classes strictly inferior.

The enhancement pass contributed a lot to this. I think a hard look at capstones is in order.

And, though I know some people will hate it, perhaps revisiting the class levels needed for each tier of enhancement. Personally, I think 1/3/6/9/12 would be more appropriate than 1/2/3/4/5.

I couldnt agree more with all of this. Adding to it, I would say 5/10/15 is even better. Being specialized in 1 area of combat type should be a bonus, not a hinderance.

[Sam1313]

I see your Wizard and raise you one Cleric.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Tni88oQhPWo/S2mjqJ4AdFI/AAAAAAAAARI/Oj9uU8rLdZ0/s1600/clerics.jpg

I'm done now. I swear.

:)

[Sam1313]

I couldnt agree more with all of this. Adding to it, I would say 5/10/15 is even better. Being specialized in 1 area of combat type should be a bonus, not a hinderance.

Agreed.

[Delacroix21]

How about armourr giving passive mitigation as well?
Total Arcane Spell Failiure of Shield + Armour -15% = passive elemental absorption?

That could be possible, but I think we should stick to static numbers.
10% light armor (these guys SHOULD have evasion)
20% medium
30% heavy

Shields follow a similar pattern
20% buckler + light shield (big bonus due to massive dps loss)
30% heavy shield (same big bonus due to massive dps loss)
40% tower shield (tanks will take 30% damage from spells, making them viable, but dps with shields is poor to compensate)

[Uska]

I see your Wizard and raise you one Cleric.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Tni88oQhPWo/S2mjqJ4AdFI/AAAAAAAAARI/Oj9uU8rLdZ0/s1600/clerics.jpg

I'm done now. I swear.

I love it!

[Grailhawk]

Class Improvements

1) Bards need better songs and the songs they have now need to scale better. They should also have a song to boost universal spell power. Finally all songs need to be untyped buffs so that they will stack with every thing.

2) Paladins need class level bonus that come after level 4. These bonuses need to be unique to the class, examples could be adding additional smites or increasing the currents smites abilities based on class level not enhancements.

3) Barbarians need to have there DR scale better and need additional forms of damage mitigation. temp HP regeneration on cirt/vorpals for instance might be an example.

Reajustments

1) Monk stances need to be reworked the best defensive stance should not have the best or second best offence. Reworking the stances to have Fire focused on DPS, Wind on Speed, Water on wisdom based tactics, and Earth on Defense should be looked into. The suggestion, that others have made, to move the crit multiplier to fire stance is probably all that needs to be done but other changes could be looked (making the crit multiplier worth with only monk weapons not centered weapons for instance). It is these stances and how easy they are to get that make monks and monk splashes in the current game over powder.

2) Master Blitz needs a nerf either its +% bonus needs to be significantly dropped or it needs to have a much shorter duration.

3) Manyshot + 10K Starts needs to be addressed. Either create a feat version of 10k Starts that works off dex (ideally Rangers would get this as an auto grant) that anyone can take or make it so that activation of Manyshot puts 10k starts on a 120 second cooldown and activation of 10k Starts puts manyshot on a 60 second cooldown. You should also consider removing the penalty to double shot when neither ability is active.

4) Either change the description of Fury Eternal to include ranged combat or correct it so that it will not function with ranged combat.


IMO these are the major issues with balance in the game at the moment, and the only ones that really need to be looked at.

[Delacroix21]

I would like to see bards get a buff, they really are black sheep here outclassed by arties in the jack of all trades by far.

[Faltout]

Hi, I'll get right on topic.

PLAYSTYLES:

First of all, in this game we have 2 major playstyles. Soloing and teamwork. Both are acceptable and we don't want to see anything get ruined. Now that we have established that let's look into those 2 playstyles and how they should work. Teamwork is all about roles that characters fill.
Crowd Controll: Maybe one CC the mobs, or if we don't have CC because noone built for it then let's aggro some of the mobs and wait in the corner so we can get them 1 or 2 at a time (that's CC too).
Kiting: while a ranger, monk, rogue can be very good at that so can anyone else.
DPSing: That is a build that has some decent DPS to use on a single mob.
Splash damaging: If we want to get work faster done and we are confident that we won't get too much aggro we can start dealing some splash damage to get things done quicker and to save the DPSer from having to deal with everything.
Avoiding traps: That's really a skill anyone should have (time and run past a trap), but that's what some builds do for a living.
Setting the mobs: What a tank needs to do is make sure the mobs that hit him will not hit the party and also that they are available in the best position for the DPSer(s).
Teamwork should be the most effective way to complete a quest/raid. You can see I didn't mention any particular builds but there should be builds that can do the above in almost every party. A build can do many of the above (not none).
So here is the REAL question. How many of the above a build can do? If you are planning on running solo you should be able to do most of them (CC, DPS, traps, splash damage). BUT: you shouldn't be able to do all of those as well as a specialized build can. That's what we want to see nerfed.

MULTICLASSING:

Multiclassing (if done right) doesn't provide any penalty. In fact it takes some of the best abilities from each class multiclassed. That's simply not right. That way you can make builds that do all teamwork should do. So what we have now is a couple of those builds running a quest together each one soloing their way through. Basically one of them could solo the quest, but now we have 6 of them. The mobs don't stand a chance.
Now what is the proper way to address multiclassing? Make the enhancements cost 2, 1.3, etc. for multiclasses is WRONG and very time consuming as the whole system needs redesigning. Let's look at it in a more natural way. You start training as a paladin. You get some abilities to help you against monsters at first levels. Then you train some more as a paladin. You now are able to make much more use of the abilities you previously learned and learn some new ones.
The above in the current enhancement system is implemented only by AP. The more you level, you gain more AP. But that has nothing to do with the class you train. And that's where the problem lies. Abilities aquired in low levels of your class should upgrade as you gain levels in the same class. To maintain the power that capped characters have right now, abilities in low levels should be less effective than they are now. The same goes for skills and feats although way harder to implement. Disable Device shouldn't be a class skill when you are training as a wizard. That said, it could possibly mean that no longer being able to max those skills will result in solo trapping ruined. But I'm suggesting that trap DCs be lowered to a limit where the wizard/rogue can barely get them depending on his ability to find the gear/INT/multiclass mix.
This nerfs a build that can do all and boosts a build that specializes in something by giving the specialized build the exclusiveness of being the most powerful at what it does while being weak in other areas thus maintaining balance. (Again saying that solo is still viable but not at hardest difficulty or not as efficiently).

HOW DOES PLAYER POWER EFFECT ME:

So why do I want to see multiclassing and extreme synergy nerfed when it's fun for some players and it doesn't effect me since I can make other builds? Because monster DCs, HP, tactics of difficult content are designed based on player power. People keep saying that it's the inflated HPs of the mobs in end-game that make those overpowered builds the only option while it's the other way around. The overpowered builds caused the inflated HP of the mobs in end-game content because the devs wanted to present a challenge to the playerbase. By giving more power in general and not nerfing what is, the monsters need to get tougher to reflect the player power. That actually ruins the builds that focus only on one thing leaving vulnerabilities hoping the party will cover those vulnerabilities with a proper paystyle. When the trash mobs that a tank is trying to take on are hitting like a boss mob, it's because there were builds that could actually stand in the middle of a horde of monsters and not get seriously hurt.
Nerfing player power would most likely cause problems with the current overpowered mobs. So when redesigning player power the devs should also address again the monster power to reflect the change.

TL;DR
Multiclassing should be a pretty viable option for someone that wants to fill many roles a party needs but should be less effective at all those roles. Specializing in a role should give bonuses beyond imagination in that role while leaving no room for other role specializations. Class enhancements, feats, skills should be more tied to class rather than just character level.
The above include the proposals already in the thread:
- Boost the capstones
- Nerf the monster power along with player power
- Reduce synergies
- Make enhancements consider class level instead of character level (+feats, +skills ex. Manyshot raise num of arrows at ranger levels)

[Seikojin]

...snip...
We need to look at spell mitigation for non-evasion toons. I think shields should give PASSIVE elemental absorption (not just when blocking) that will help tanks with casters, and nerf in monster to-hit and damage will help their meele mitigation. Tanks may actually return to use in ddo!


Regarding Monk stances, I agree that raging should make Monks uncentered, similar to Paladins can't use their stances with any kind of rage. I'd go a step further and extend that Monk Stances don't work other classes stances, but that won't fly.

As for Deflection, you need to also include Shields in the discussion. In fact, any change to Armor needs to take shields into account also.

I too think Rage should uncenter you. Save an enhancement or feat that allows it.

However, I think what I said earlier for Armor feats, shield feats and two weapon blocking would help bolster melee significantly for the targeted playstyles that want to S&B and also not be a backpack slot waiting to fill.

[Daze]

One other thing I would like to note:

ED XP should be able to be funneled to a central karma pool. Off destiny XP should be able to be garnered while in main destiny ... at a loss.

Epic TR are independent of heroic but as it is now .... it is not, as it requires being in a different build to maximize the use of the destiny.

[Delacroix21]

I would still like a focus on reducing EE monster damage, to-hit (for AC to matter), HP, and saves.


It is rare for the community to agree on something, but when we do it should move to the top of the pile.

[Oxarhamar]

The enhachement pass 1,2,3,4,5 levels for Tiers of enhancements was one of the best things to happen to this game in a long time it has made playing interesting builds viable keep it.

Playing my 6 Artificer 8 Fighter 6 Ranger Kensei Repeater build is too much fun.



I'm going to counter those that are all calling for Nerf bat on LD, FoTW, & Shiradi and say consider looking at the other destinies and improving them to be viable so we have a more of a choice.


On a side note running a Sorc in Draconic for most quests is superior to Shiradi DPS as long as you have enough shrines Shiradi is just more SP efficient.


I totally Agree that capstones should be boosted for those who do not want to Multiclass.

[Sebastrd]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

In my opinion, it's anything that dictates choices to the player.


If Monks was not overpowered then why is it that almost every character in the game is splashed with Monk?

Posts like this miss the point. Players don't splash monk because it's overpowered; they splash monk because evasion is necessary. There's a difference. That's why nerfing monk won't fix the problem.

If everyone splashes for evasion because they need it to survive, taking away evasion doesn't fix the problem. If everyone runs ranged DPS because staying within arms' reach of an EE mob is suicide, nerfing ranged DPS doesn't fix the problem. If everyone multiclasses because pure class builds are too narrowly focused, one-trick ponies, nerfing multiclassing doesn't fix the problem. If all casters are in Shiradi because EE mobs' HP are inflated to the point that Shiradi procs on cheap spells are the only option for taking them down, nerfing Shiradi doesn't fix the problem.

[Recared]

HOW DOES PLAYER POWER EFFECT ME:

So why do I want to see multiclassing and extreme synergy nerfed when it's fun for some players and it doesn't effect me since I can make other builds? Because monster DCs, HP, tactics of difficult content are designed based on player power. People keep saying that it's the inflated HPs of the mobs in end-game that make those overpowered builds the only option while it's the other way around. The overpowered builds caused the inflated HP of the mobs in end-game content because the devs wanted to present a challenge to the playerbase. By giving more power in general and not nerfing what is, the monsters need to get tougher to reflect the player power. That actually ruins the builds that focus only on one thing leaving vulnerabilities hoping the party will cover those vulnerabilities with a proper paystyle. When the trash mobs that a tank is trying to take on are hitting like a boss mob, it's because there were builds that could actually stand in the middle of a horde of monsters and not get seriously hurt.
Nerfing player power would most likely cause problems with the current overpowered mobs. So when redesigning player power the devs should also address again the monster power to reflect the change.

TL;DR
Multiclassing should be a pretty viable option for someone that wants to fill many roles a party needs but should be less effective at all those roles. Specializing in a role should give bonuses beyond imagination in that role while leaving no room for other role specializations. Class enhancements, feats, skills should be more tied to class rather than just character level.
The above include the proposals already in the thread:
- Boost the capstones
- Nerf the monster power along with player power
- Reduce synergies
- Make enhancements consider class level instead of character level (+feats, +skills ex. Manyshot raise num of arrows at ranger levels)

I disagree with the diagnosis (although at least you tried to answer the question "why"): I don't think people is saying it's mobs hp that is causing those builds (there are more than it seems, but probably you refer to all succesful builds that are effective while ranging in whatever form) to be the only one viable -> no, it's the damage output they do that is too unmanageable for melees to stand and therefore contribute with their dps (which is perfectly fine) and enjoy the fun. There is a consensus. However, I have to say that some melee builds can still deal with that with some proper healing backup... Let's leave it there...
So you do not want to make your character more powerful by taking 1 class split or 2 that is available to you and therefore if someone is doing it it is overpowered? When an option is available to everyone, that is not overpowered. Another thing is whether it becomes gamebreaking. 2 monk breaks the game? why? Nonsense. Multiclassing should always be rewarding. why should a fighter 20 be as powerful as a 16/2/2 or 12/2/2? You even go further as to say it should be more powerful? Why? Multiclassing options are there, always have been, take more planning, and open so many possibilities. Sure, you don't want to multiclass, don't, and wait for someone to join the group to do some specific task you could have performed with some extra planning investment. Capstones are already good enough, they are a freebie that actually is debatable. "Give us an incentive to stay pure". Still, why? If there is an item that goes in slot A and makes you way more effective, you can use it or not, that is your option, at the cost of using the slot, why should any other item have a similar level of power to your build. Some will be sinergetic and some won't. That's ok and fun. Well you could argue the same with PLs. Give us an incentive to stay single live!! Single Life toons should be as effective as completionists (free that feat already, come on!), "give as a reward for not having TRd". Seems like a twisted logic but it is not. The option is there and is available to you. You cannot choose to not take the available tools/options that the game provides to be more powerful/effective/efficient and then ask for your build to be as effective as the one that optimized all.
Yes, gamebreaking stuff needs to be changed. EiN is not what once was, quivering palm seems to have reach some kind of middle point, etc. etc. If there is an ability that kills all mobs every 10 seconds at no cost, sure go ahead change it, no problem. Some people seem to have a fixation, I don't know where that comes from, with pure builds. DDO is not about pure builds and then there was a mistake in design that allowed you to mix 3 classes. Multiclass is the bread and butter of DDO.
Along this thread something has been identified: melee gets too much damage on EE. Fine, let's see what can be done, but that has to be balanced towards the mentality that melee has tools available for versatility.
Solo/party. Some hatred to solo play also among the thread. Some people has fun soloing stuff and some people hates solo play and understands the game as a party where there are definite roles. Well, this game is fantastic at pleasing both possibilities. For me, I like partying a lot, but soloing EE is a very nice challenge, and I consider my toon is correctly built (for me, of course) when it allows me to solo that content (with the obvious exceptions). And yes there was a time when a Barbarian could go out there and solo the hardest content. We had a legendary angry Axe wielder out there that broke many missconceptions...
Funnily enough, another legend around here, MrCow, predicted the possible "paradigm shift" that ranged use could bring to the game (when BAB would increase enough and some other variables took place) some years ago, when ranged was still laughable.

[Claver]

Here is my take on Class Balance as it affects my game play and enjoyment.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:

(A) [Epic Elite] ~ Irrelevant. EE is just a small portion of the game. What character combinations play or don’t play EE doesn’t factor into my build choices for running heroic level content, Epic Normal , Epic Hard and most raids before level 26. My disinterest in EE stems from the inflated bag of hit points that dominate those quest. I find EE tedious rather than challenging. Having said that; in my view, EE should be a challenge for the best builds with the best gear and not necessarily accessible to every wacky multi-class combination under the sun.

(B) [End Game Raid Design] ~ Important. This is 100% on Turbine and the raid mechanics it creates. Are save or die mechanics so extreme that a character with evasion and divine grace is a must? If so, we design builds with those characteristics? Is it too dangerous to engage monsters in melee range? If so, we design builds for missle fire and long range spell kiting.

Turbine, it is up to you to design mechanics that incentivize a wider variety of build choices. Are there traps that need to be disabled by someone specialized in that task rather than just evaded and ignored? Is there a reason to tank something rather than just kite it or kill it? Add monsters that are difficult to kite or kill but needed to be controlled, say one with a glass jaw that is easy to stun, but every time one is killed two more come back in its place. Or undead spirits resistant to physical attacks that are particularly vulnerable to turn undead. Give us problems that can’t all best be solved by one universal solution and we will play a greater variety of builds (and have more fun doing so).

?
(C) [Class Identity] ~ Relevant. Character power resides in Enhancements and Epic Destinies ~ unlocked through various levels of multiclassing. In this context, rating the strength of the paladin class as whole (2 or 4 levels of Paladin –great!, 20 levels of Paladin – not so much) or the relative strength of any other class misses the mark.

Most of the time this is a good thing. Being able to build and play almost anything on your own terms is what makes DDO worth playing. So long as I can have fun and reasonable success in EN playing a 7 wizard/13 zombie monk or a 12 ftr/7bard/1 barbarbarian brutal throwing halfling I consider the game balanced. Fringe builds such as these don’t necessarily need to excel in EE or even raids.

Where this is a problem is when a central feature of a class is so weak by comparison it becomes unplayable at upper heroic levels and EN content. At a minimum, a core concept of a class should be sufficiently strong to be enjoyable at all levels of content. Here are just two small examples:

DRUIDS: Bear Form/ Wolf Form. Unplayable at Epic levels and insufficiently supported at heroic levels. I havn’t found any workable class/enhancment combination for playing in bear form. The only way I can make wolf get by is to mult-class. This seems criminal that pure Druids are effectively barred from playing as Bears.

TRAP MAKING/ TRAP MONKEY: Trap making (mines/grenades) are far too weak even for casual solo play at heroic levels. Epic level play is out of the question. The trap making aspect of Rogue Mechanic is a joke in terms of relative power and there is no support within Epic Destinies. On the flip side, a dedicated trap monkey is emasculated by DDO quest design. There are exceptions, but for the most part, traps are absent or when present its more efficient to heal/raise your way through the trap then reward a dedicated trapper. As often as not, a minor splash in a few levels of rogue or artificer is enough to handle most traps.

SOLUTIONS

1. First, before you do anything else, scale down the inflated hit points and to a certain extent, the excessive damage of EE monsters.
2. Second, look at raid design as a means to diversify end game builds. Make stealth, fascinate, charm, sunder, shield block, intimidate, healing, turning, assassinate, ranged, control, insta kill, energy damage, trip, etc. vitaly important at various times.
3. Be sure Raid end rewards are balanced for a variety of classes too. Look at CITW for example, not much reason to play a divine caster when this was end game based on the raid loot.
4. (*) Raise the relative power level of the Epic Moments of various destinies [Primal Avatar, Fate Singer, and Unyieding Sentinal in particular are categorically rejected in favor of other, stronger destinies]. (*) If you only have time for one class balance change, make revisiting all epic destiny moments the main focus.
5. Dramatically increase the capstone power of pure classes. Each capstone should be greater in power than both evasion and divine grace (benefits offered by splashing 2 levels or rogue/monk or paladin).
6. Link capstone with a specific Epic Destiny to increase the power while in that destiny and further reward playing a pure class. For example, Archmage Capstone (Master of Magic) could be linked "Arcane Adept" from Magister i.e. a 20th level wizard could gain 25% reduction in spell point cost instead of 10%.
7. Identify core concepts of various classes. Make sure these abilities are supported and scale in usefulness through all levels of gameplay (1 – 30). Consider whether these features are viable in EE and if not balance accordingly. Provide gear and quest/raid content that utilize and augment these abilities. Examples that fall short in EE relative to current FOTW builds include:

• Wolf/Iron Defender Enhancements @ Epic (Artificer/Druid)
• Trap Making [mines, grenades] (Artificers, Rogues)
• Rune Arms (Artificers)
• Damage Reduction (Barbarian)
• Fascinate (Bards)
• Control ~ Dance, Hold, Daze, Hypnotism (Bard, Wizard)
• Sonic Damage Spells (Bards)
• Turn Undead (Cleric, Paladin)
• Healing (Cleric, FVS, Druid)
• Bear Shape Change Melee (Druid)
• Wolf Shape Change Melee (Druid)
• Sword and Board (Fighter, Paladin)
• Stealth (Rogue, Ranger)
• Trap Disarming (Rogue, Artificer)
• Insta-kill (Wizard, Clr)

NERFING….

A. Before you do any nerfing, implement steps 1-7 above
B. Before you do any nerfng; Turbine, ask yourself, is the game more fun to play because of this abilitiy? Let the “fun factor” temper whatever measures you deem necessary
C. Legendary Dreadnaught (Blitz). I’m not convinced this is unbalancing the game. Master's Blitz is great for solo play but less impressive when other Blitzers are in the party competing for kills. Bring up the power of other Epic Moments to provide a viable alternative in a different Destiny rather than nerf blitz.
D. If Turbine is insistent on Nerfing don’t mess with the cool down or charge up; maybe cap max damage stack at 5 times instead of 10.
E. Shirardi Caster. I’m not convinced this is unbalancing the game. I enjoy running quests with a Shirardi caster in my party. It does not make me feel marginalized or like I need to reroll into something else. They are a fun build that is fun to play with.
E. Weakening the Shirardi destiny would be a mistake; it would penalize too many other potential builds from archers to throwing weapon builds.
F. Restricting Double Rainbow from spells would be a mistake. The randomness of a volley of magic missiles adds fun to the game. DDO is made better by the fact that this type of build can exist.
G. If Turbine is insistent on Nerfing maybe reduce the proc rate slightly for spells or cap the number of times it can trigger per second but don’t eliminate the build altogether
H Fury Shot. I’m not convinced this is unbalancing the game. In addition to Min/Max builds it provides fun for lesser ranged builds
I. Restricting Adrenaline from ranged combat would be a mistake. Periodically seeing big numbers is fun (although the magnitude of those numbers may be worth questioning)
J. If Turbine is insistent on Nerfing maybe restrict Adrenaline to the first arrow and only the first arrow of a multishot attack.
K. Refer to Item #1 again….. “First, before you do anything else, scale down the inflated hit points and to a certain extent, the excessive damage of EE monsters” No nerfs are sensible without a balance to EE content as well.

[Recared]

In my opinion, it's anything that dictates choices to the player.



Posts like this miss the point. Players don't splash monk because it's overpowered; they splash monk because evasion is necessary. There's a difference. That's why nerfing monk won't fix the problem.

If everyone splashes for evasion because they need it to survive, taking away evasion doesn't fix the problem. If everyone runs ranged DPS because staying within arms' reach of an EE mob is suicide, nerfing ranged DPS doesn't fix the problem. If everyone multiclasses because pure class builds are too narrowly focused, one-trick ponies, nerfing multiclassing doesn't fix the problem. If all casters are in Shiradi because EE mobs' HP are inflated to the point that Shiradi procs on cheap spells are the only option for taking them down, nerfing Shiradi doesn't fix the problem.

Evasion is not even necessary with so few exceptions... Miior EE comes to mind... Yes, I miss evasion there... Well, I need a party or EH. It's ok. Yes as a monkcher that boss would have been cake :D

Haunted halls of Eveningstar, such a wonderful quest!!! I have so much fun there! And the commentaries, and the voice!! Instant classic quest. One of my favourites along with the good old Deleras chain and some others.

[HatsuharuZ]

Sorry if anyone has said this before, but...

Before anything else is done, EE difficulty needs to be more accessible to anyone who is not a self-healing caster or furyshot build.

Now, if mob HP is lowered in EE, then Fury + Manyshot becomes VERY OP. Thus, that synergy will need to be nerfed a bit. I would suggest making it so that it's not possible to use Adrenaline with a bows or crossbows, but allow it to be used with throwing weapons.

Master's Blitz may need a nerf as well. Just reduce the damage each stack gives, in that case. Players like the challenge of having to keep killing things within the time limit in order to get their damage up.

One the EE adjustments and any nerfs are done, *then* it would be a good idea for the developers to put up a thread for the express purpose of discussing enhancements and potential changes. Right now bards, barbarians and paladins are in a bad spot. Core abilities and capstones needs buffs in most classes, as well.

[Krell]

I think you need a little historical perspective to see the underlying issues. When the old epic system was replaced with EN, EH, and EE, the result was that almost all builds were fairly effective in EN and EH. The curve for EE was intentionally very steep from EN/EH and existed as an extreme challenge for a small percent of the population base. With the enhancement and other changes. a handful of builds developed that could be effective in EE. As more people began to use those builds, we began to see a steady increase in EE LFMs. As that cycle continues, more players see that to have the most options to get in a group and play the game, they need to have EE effective builds. I think here are some of the options you have to consider:
1. Nerf key components of builds that make them effective in EE, but do not adjust EE difficulty. In theory this reduces the LFMs/groups running EE again. With most LFMs then being EN/EH, most builds could participate.
2. Buff weaker classes and EDs to make them effective in EE, but do not adjust EE difficulty. In theory if most builds can be effective in EE and most LFMs are EE, then most people get to play together.
3. Nerf key components of builds that make them effective in EE, but reduce the difficulty curve with EE. In theory the player power range is narrower, but so is the difficulty range, so again most builds can play with each other.

I could live with any of these options. The point I think is to design a system where most classes and EDs can effectively contribute in the quests that most players are running. I think people that have invested time in the game want to be able to log in and participate in most the content that other players are running, while still enjoying the great variety of classes and races that DDO offers..

[blerkington]

Okay, yes, when soloing you will want to pull mobs one at a time, pin/whistle them, melee them while helpless, etc. Bluff, SA, Unbalancing, (Imp)Deception, are all your friends, fine. But running quests that way drops your xp/min into the floor, and who wants to spend 90 minutes in VoN3 for 50kxp?
Using your described tactics in an EE group is just as senseless, since your contribution to the party is really no better than if you WERE a soulstone.
Again, that's not how a capable AA ranger handles combat. He turns on his most powerful imbues and dr breaking secondaries, runs in the most powerful ED(s), and mows down the mobs with IPS, use of position, shedding aggro with all the tools he has access to, etc...

Now, I can see that you understand this concept from your other posts, so I'm not exactly saying "you're full of it," but the one post i quoted you on is a terrible oversimplification and just not realistic in today's game.

Hi,

CC is valuable in EE groups as well as when soloing. A line of pinned and or dancing mobs, who are helpless and taking extra damage from melee and spells speeds things up, it doesn't slow things down.

Those abilities, when used effectively, reduce incoming damage and increase outgoing damage. It takes little to no time to use them, you do it as you engage, then the fight goes from there. Monsters who are CC'd don't need to be chased around, nor do they overwhelm your melees as easily with their heavy hitting power.

I am somewhat surprised that I have to explain this.

The example I provided was simple, but it showed how a ranger running in shiradi can cope with EE content solo and can increase both their own and the group's DPS in the same content. They are not mutually exclusive with quick completions, in fact using those abilities well contributes to them.

What you appear to be endorsing is that a non 10k stars AA keep his hands glued to the bow no matter what, when depending on circumstances that can represent a DPS decrease overall. But unless you are hitting several mobs simultaneously, your damage output can easily be lower by staying ranged than it is in melee if manyshot is on cooldown.

I use the tactics I've described in "today's game", and they work well. They help towards easy, quick completions and my kill counts, flawed metric that it is, remain healthy.

Thanks.

[JOTMON]

I don't agree with some of this. Why remove a high CON pre-req and toughness to get epic toughness? Shouldn't the whole purpose of it to be for meaty characters to get meatier and not for squishies to get a random HP bump because they feel like it?

And an epic feat that gives you a Paladin's unique perk? To me, that just downgrades my desire to go Paladin.

I think the point of this thread is that each class should be worth playing as well as have that special function/purpose that another class can't easily duplicate. To encourage party cohesion and promote a mix of abilities that work well together when teamed up should be the goal of any MMO. It shouldn't be one overpowered character's show with everyone else along for the ride. Otherwise, why don't we all just go play Mass Effect or some other single-player experience of choice?

I do agree that a surgeon's touch vs. a bazooka would be more appropriate.

I'd be *really* curious what the breakdown of what the classes/races of 'regular' players across the entire base are. You would think that'd be extremely revealing on what is overpowered/underpowered given DDOs maturity.

I also agree with many posters that 'pure' classes should have more incentive to put them on par with multi-classes, likely in the form of a much better capstone. Let the choice of single vs. multi-class actually be a tough one instead of a no-brainer (funny I say that as my primary is a pure class fighter).

Anyway, I think the devs looking for this type of feedback is fantastic. Hoping good stuff comes from it. I did recommend in the survey comments and will do so here as well that it might be a good idea to link the survey on the launcher. Then those who don't read the forums regularly have a chance to participate as well and the devs get a better data sampling size.

Also, regarding the survey, might have been a good idea to have an "N/A" option, in the event you're not familiar with a particular ED or class. Wouldn't want to skew the data unnecessarily.

At Epic levels 50HP means nothing to a 1200hp tank., 50HP to a squishier 450HP toon is meaningful. It is pretty common for players who hit the 1khp skip this epic fat for something else.
Rogues for example are already tight for feats and require points in most stats, vs other builds who have free stats to invest in con and one other primary stat.. these builds can forsake con for other feats.


Paladins have access right from the beginning levels, as an epic feat for other toons it doesn't become available until the epic levels and most wont have the cha investment to get the same bonus, but it does offer an opportunity for other players to get almost useful saves in epic content. There are other perks the paladin class should be able to provide to other classes instead of people splashing paladin just for the saves and occasional LOH.


Capstones should offer a desirable perk that really makes you rethink multi-classing. The capstone should be a unique bonus and not be trumped by gear,.

[der_kluge]

Quick fix:
Increase the bonus XP a quest gives for completing the quest without killing anyone (discreet/devious/insidious cunning). That will make rogues (sneak) CC casters (like bards) much more useful. It won't work in every quest - but if you could create that as a viable playstyle option, then I think people would maybe gravitate towards that.

Right now these bonuses are 5/7/10% respectively, which is woefully low. This is the harder option. Also, you'd probably have to make it so that if a bard fascinates, (for example) that you have the mob completely forget that it ever happened, so they don't go wander through the entire dungeon looking for the PC. That's going to be a ton of server load with all that active agro.


I spent a lot of time thinking about that solution. It's super easy, doesn't require class changes, but suddenly makes the game far more interesting and engaging. Classes that don't bring a lot of DPS to the table suddenly become viable options.

What makes a build weak is a combination of two things: DPS and survivability. Bards struggle because they aren't designed for massive DPS. Barbarians suffer, because they have no self-healing capabilities.

Second fix:
A barbarian's rage heals him for the duration of the rage.

[Dalsheel]

The tier one ability of 1.5 (W) unarmed damage bonus could/should be tier three or four. IMHO

...or tier5 so it can't be twisted. You want Dance of Flowers to go along your eSoS? Fine, but you must be in GmoF to get it, forget blitz! ;)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Cordovan and Vargoville...


While there has been heated debate on nerfing certain builds, there has been almost NO debate that EE monsters need their HP, damage, saves, and to hit (to buff ac tanks) reduced.


Can we get a comment to acknowledge an issue 95% of the posts in this thread agree on?


I debate that.


I have seen players blast away EE monsters is about 2 seconds.

Players put out so much DPS that you reduce monster abilities at all and you remove any challenge we have left in this game.

And I am not talking about my characters. My DPS takes me all year to beat one down alone.
But I have seen plenty of other players rush through EE like they were playing on casual.



But.... I do agree that something needs to be done to help most melee players take more hits in EE.

But seriously, we do not need to make this game any easier.




Now.... I have a ton of alts.
With various abilities.

Most can't really handle EEs.

My main..... despite most players considering him gimped... especially his DPS.
Despite only an AC of 77ish.
Despite only between 500-750ish HP depending on destiny....

I can actually take some hits on EE.

You need defensive gear... and my build has defensive buffs...like Displacement.

But EE "is" supposed to be difficult.


No... unless they do a serious nerf to DPS or other player abilities, monsters need to stay where they are.




I do support beefing up Armor for us though, to make melee more viable.





Actually..... about that armor.
My Rgr... light armor only.
Wiz, Sor... no armor.

All have powerful ranged attacks. The casters have the most.

Armor... HP.... stuff like that...
is suppose to be a trade off, that Fighters etc. have and the ranged guys do not.

Those EE mobs "should" be killing any Wizard they can get their mits on.

But... they should NOT be cutting down armored guys like they do now!



No.. the more I think about this, the more I come to the same conclusion.
Keep EE monster stats as they are.

Increase armor PRR. (and maybe AC as well, but it is not my goal to make melee guys invulnerable, just to make them last longer in combat.)

[Uska]

Quick fix:
Increase the bonus XP a quest gives for completing the quest without killing anyone (discreet/devious/insidious cunning). That will make rogues (sneak) CC casters (like bards) much more useful. It won't work in every quest - but if you could create that as a viable playstyle option, then I think people would maybe gravitate towards that.

Right now these bonuses are 5/7/10% respectively, which is woefully low. This is the harder option. Also, you'd probably have to make it so that if a bard fascinates, (for example) that you have the mob completely forget that it ever happened, so they don't go wander through the entire dungeon looking for the PC. That's going to be a ton of server load with all that active agro.


I spent a lot of time thinking about that solution. It's super easy, doesn't require class changes, but suddenly makes the game far more interesting and engaging. Classes that don't bring a lot of DPS to the table suddenly become viable options.

What makes a build weak is a combination of two things: DPS and survivability. Bards struggle because they aren't designed for massive DPS. Barbarians suffer, because they have no self-healing capabilities.

Second fix:
A barbarian's rage heals him for the duration of the rage.

hate it how about rage boosts PRR and DR for duration of rage.

[Qhualor]

hate it how about rage boosts PRR and DR for duration of rage.

is it ok if I agree with this..sorta? I can go along with rage increasing DR tied to class level, but at 20 would like to see a good increase that scales appropriately for epics. if its done right and theres good survivability, could give pause to players to either multi class or stay pure.

I like the idea better that someone else came up with having PRR tied to type of armor where heavy armor would offer the highest amount and those pajama wearers cant even come close. if DR is already scaling better for barbs, than the PRR from armor plus enhancements, etc to boost it would add to a better defense for them. this of course depends on how much reduction, if any, the devs do with epic mobs dps.

[Jasparion]

Monks are fine
Monk splashes are fine

The problem is few classes have any reason to stay in them beyond level 6. Very few

Barbarians Bards Paladin beyond 6 all need additional abilities added to the level part of the class not just trees. Of course they all need a third tree as well @_@

Capstones for all classes need to be significantly better, and by better I mean +2 to stat of choice, 2 feats, Evasion levels of better. It does not have to be those things exactly but it has to be on par to give 'choices'

+2 to stat of choice isnt significantly better. +4 to stat of choice is significantly better. And there should be a +2 to stat of choice at level 18 as well.

Stay pure and get +6 to a stat over someone who goes multi-class (or +4 over someone who has a splash). That then provides a VERY big decision to the player.

As it is now, it is pretty much a no-brainer to go multi-class. Very few builds work best as pure.

And you Turbine guys really should be bugging sirgog to join the PC - even though he has said he isnt interested. Whether you agree with him or not, his posts are always incredibly well thought-out and generate a LOT of discussion.

[Faltout]

I disagree with the diagnosis (although at least you tried to answer the question "why"): I don't think people is saying it's mobs hp that is causing those builds (there are more than it seems, but probably you refer to all succesful builds that are effective while ranging in whatever form) to be the only one viable -> no, it's the damage output they do that is too unmanageable for melees to stand and therefore contribute with their dps (which is perfectly fine) and enjoy the fun. There is a consensus. However, I have to say that some melee builds can still deal with that with some proper healing backup... Let's leave it there...
I'm addressing monster power in general. How hard they hit is included. As for the melees "enjoying the fun" I don't know what exactly are you talking about. Sure, melees should not get close to dragons, casters etc. but they SHOULD get close to something that is not going to annihilate them. Otherwise they are USELESS and I don't see where the fun is in that. Also, people have been complaining about monster HP too. And the dev answer is (behind the curtains): "Nonsence, people are soloing top tier raids, and breezing through any content we make. HPs need a boost and damage needs to be a little harder. Also, let's harm those ranged toons somehow, they can't remain unharmed."
And even if they are not that evil (hehe), playerbase would start to complain about how easy new content is (based on max builds).
If you disagree here, tell me where and I might pull some examples of the countless threads that back my point. If you don't disagree, then everything written below is just not valid to counter what I said.

So you do not want to make your character more powerful by taking 1 class split or 2 that is available to you and therefore if someone is doing it it is overpowered? When an option is available to everyone, that is not overpowered. Another thing is whether it becomes gamebreaking. 2 monk breaks the game? why? Nonsense. Multiclassing should always be rewarding. why should a fighter 20 be as powerful as a 16/2/2 or 12/2/2? You even go further as to say it should be more powerful? Why?
You are simply stating your opinion and not providing any answers or arguments yourself. "It's simply the way it has been, should be and will be." Sure. I can do the same. 2 monk breaks the game, multiclassing should never be rewarding, when an option is available to anyone it can also be overpowered. I have already replied to all 3 questions:
+ Multiclassing should be rewarding because it enables you to fill several roles and adapt easier to the circumstances.
- Multiclassing should not grant you every specialization you want. No specialization but more options.
+ Pure class should be rewarding because it enables you to specialize in a role and be the best at what you do.
- Pure class should not give you many options when it comes to filling roles. You can only do your part but you're **** good at it.

Multiclassing options are there, always have been, take more planning, and open so many possibilities. Sure, you don't want to multiclass, don't, and wait for someone to join the group to do some specific task you could have performed with some extra planning investment. Capstones are already good enough, they are a freebie that actually is debatable. "Give us an incentive to stay pure". Still, why?
You still think I say "make multiclass worse than pure". Again, I'm not saying that. I'm saying is 1. "Make pure classes have more bonuses, less adaptivity" 2. "Make multiclass have less bonuses, more adaptivity". Currently pure classes don't have adaptivity and don't have bonuses. Multiclasses have bonuses and adaptivity. It's obvious what I'm proposing. If you strive for adaptivity and having multiple roles, multiclass is the way to go (Incentive for multiclass). If you want to be the best at what you love to do go pure class (Incentive for pure class). If there is an incentive for ONLY one of the choices then it's not really a choice.

If there is an item that goes in slot A and makes you way more effective, you can use it or not, that is your option, at the cost of using the slot, why should any other item have a similar level of power to your build. Some will be sinergetic and some won't. That's ok and fun. Well you could argue the same with PLs. Give us an incentive to stay single live!! Single Life toons should be as effective as completionists (free that feat already, come on!), "give as a reward for not having TRd". Seems like a twisted logic but it is not. The option is there and is available to you. You cannot choose to not take the available tools/options that the game provides to be more powerful/effective/efficient and then ask for your build to be as effective as the one that optimized all.

I'm not even going to respond to that. Answer is quite obvious from above.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.


I've seen instakill work just fine in EEs... in fact, if DC casting gets much more of of a boost we are going to be back into the palemaster is a demi-god playbalance.

My first life Pale Master (Wiz24) in Magester destiny was able to get his instakills to work in lower level EEs. Maybe 50% of the time depending on what type of mob I was going against.

Seems to me that all of those Completionist gear grinders should be close to 100% success.



I've seen plenty of Sorcs blast an entire room of EE mobs.
Not sure what they are using to do it. It is not Magic Missiles, it is acid and cold most often.
Might be Dragon Breath. Seems like it has a long cool down, cause they don't do it in every room.

But they do use it often, and it is very powerful.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Do you know what happens to a Cleric who takes two levels of Rog or Monk for Evasion?

He takes no damage from Ref save attacks when he rolls a............. "20"!!!


Yeah.. that's right. Because his Ref save is still ****.

Show me a Cleric who has enough stat points to put any into Dex.



People really overestimate Evasion... without any understanding of the fact that you also need to come up with a build that has a good Ref save to go along with it.





Oh... but he just has to add Pal2 to get that saves boost.


Uhmmmmm.... again. No understanding that Pal2 has only a small effect without a huge investment in Cha.
You know Cha? That "dump stat"!




Ok.... yes. A Sorc16/Mnk2/Pal (and add Blade forged for good measure)
Has some serious saves... and tons of other stuff.

But no one else gets nearly as much of a benefit from splashing Mnk2(or Rog20 and Pal2 as everyone makes it out to be.


Someone mentioned Epic ref.
Again... no understanding that you still need to get the saves up somehow.


Believe me.... EEs require some very high save numbers.

The average bear gets very little from splashing Mnk2/Rog2/ and Pal2.


But... Add Mnk6 into the picture....
or Mnk12.....

Start mixing some other stuff then....

Not sure the current best builds, but Pal2/Mnk6 or 12... maybe Rgr6, or Ftr6.....and now we are cooking with gas.


But.. is this a problem?

Monks have good saves in all three areas.
Add several Monk levels and you have good saves.

But so would a pure Monk.




Or add a bunch of levels of a class that has a high Ref save... and can work as a Dex build...
Then Evasion is pretty kick ass. Especially with Epic Ref.



Is this a problem?


Not if Turbine just adds some simple spell variety to their monsters....
(actually, it is more various than most people realize.. but.... I admit most monster cast very few spells that do not have a Ref save.)







I do think that splashing Mnk2 and Pal2 is a good idea. But doesn't do much unless you have something else to beef up those saves.










And for the record. I play Human Rgr11/Rog4/Wiz5(E8)... with a Ref save usually in the 70's..... re-read that.. No Pal or Monk levels, yet I have a ref save higher than most other players.

How do I know mine is higher?
I live (unscathed) and they die.

On the flip side... my Monk20(E4) with improved Evasion and a 40ish Ref save...... dies in EE traps.

Show me a Clr, or Ftr.... with Mnk2 and Pal2 that has better ref saves than my Monk. (yes I know they exist... just they are not as common as people act like they are.... how do I know... because they die!)


Evasion without the Ref save to go with it doesn't do much.
Classes with low Ref saves and no significant Dex investment don't gain much from Evasion.

Pal2 doesn't do much with low Cha.



You people who act like these splashes suddenly make a character a god don't really understand how things work.

[Qhualor]

I splashed 2 monk on a dwarf paladin life and only had 14 base dex. elite ETK fire elementals would only tickle me. I cant speak for the new content and how those 2 monk levels would have worked out, but I know it was pretty much the same way the little while I did some epics before I TR'd again. there wouldn't be so many of those 2 levels running around if it wasn't working out too well.

[Cardtrick]

You people who act like these splashes suddenly make a character a god don't really understand how things work.

They don't make you a god automatically. They do give you the opportunity to make yourself a god.

I think you are underestimating how easy it is to get a high CHA or DEX or any other stat, even with no initial investment of build points. We live in the days of +10 stat items, +5/6 tomes, easy exceptional/insightful gear, enhancement trees and EDs, etc. It is very possible to get high values even on secondary stats like CHA.

The problem is then that the hardest content is balanced around these "god-like" abilities. As has been said by many throughout this thread, any nerf to character abilities would need to be accompanied by nerfs to the high level content.

[Zuka]

Actually in pnp monks are allowed to multiclass but once they take any class other than monk after their first monk level they may no,longer gain. Monk levels if they did that here it might reduce some people splashing monk but not many.

Fair enough, I just went back over the entry on the d20 srd (friend has my PHB atm) and yeah they can multi, and disturbingly keep all of their monk abilities from doing so, even if they become unlawful. Now it would appear the PnP monk is equally as broken as the DDO one, lol.

[nibel]

Now it would appear the PnP monk is equally as broken as the DDO one, lol.

Not by a long shot. PnP monk is one of the least powerful classes of the core (IIRC, only Fighter is lower), but it is still an amazing splash class on PnP, just not for the same reasons it is a good splash class on DDO. Most monkish builds in 3.5 that worked used one or two monk levels, then jumped into a prestige class that raised unarmed damage and flurry.

DDO buffed monks up a lot. Attack speed, elemental stances, a usable Flurry, full BAB while using monk weaponry/unarmed, healing amplification, and the original prestige benefits (Shintao DR bypass, Ninja shadow veil), alongside the stat inflation that permeates DDO made monk vastly more powerful than the original class.

[elvesunited]

I've learned that my Artificer character is going to be nerfed. Boulder Toss will no longer benefit from spell power. I assume my high force critical chance is out too on it. It's a nerf but I don't think Boulder Toss was ever really intended to be a high level damage attack for force casters. So I'm not going to take it too hard.

One could argue that adrenaline/manyshot/slay arrow fall into the same category. They really weren't meant to synergize that well. Though Slay arrow was meant to critical and fire multiple times in a manyshot though. My suggestion would be that adrenaline and slay arrow simply can't effect the same arrows. If adrenaline is selected then slay arrow becomes disabled until that ardrenaline is used. No fuss no muss.

But messing with Ten Thousand Stars? The way that it interacts with Manyshot and doubleshot ( by eliminating it ) has been firmly established by the developers. Changing Ten Thousand Stars to thrown only wipes out builds. A better approach would be to give pure rangers a additional and significant boost for the top core arcane archer enhancement available only to level 20. ( A significantly increased doubleshot would fit the bill but be of limited use to the monkcher)

As for melee dps vs ranged dps. I've seen melee monks, wolf druids, fighters and barbarians out dps an archer. The reason ranged dps is so powerful in epic elite is their ability to give damage while avoiding it. Even if their DPS was reduced they'd still dominate it would just take them longer. The problem isn't the dps. The problem is enemies for whom melee engagement is a joke. The only solution would be either to give the melee fighters some significant durability enhancements or simply accept that the developers have created some epic enemies for whom standing toe to toe with is simply not feasible for any mortal character. ( because the power upgrade needed to give a melee character the ability to stand up to these bruisers would make them invincible for everything else )

To encourage more pure character types give the top level core abilities for the prestige classes some better teeth. Pure Battle Engineers could get a rune arm boost. Pure arcane arachers could get a better doubleshot increase. etc.

Aside from that the AC and physical resistance enhancements for melees should all get a significant boost similar to what they are doing with Harden in the Sentinel destiny. Maybe not enough to handle the level 30 bosses. But enough that they can fight the rest without embarrassment. And of course giving the melee types the ability to ability to lower spell damage ( most likely stacking absorption based on armor worn ) would do wonders.

[IronClan]

Balance is not fun, Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced.

Gaming is the act of making choices that are meaningful and entertaining, rock paper scissors doesn't have much entertainment value... because the choices are shallow and thus not meaningful.

Balance is vanilla, bland. D&D has never had balance and yet is one of the the most successful games in the history of games. Why? Because all the classes can bring something to the table, most of them are "the best" at one specific thing, but variously bad/awful/hilarious at other things.

FORTY YEARS OF PLAYTESTING... They could have made the classes rock paper scissors 25 years ago... Wonder why they didn't?

[nibel]

FORTY YEARS OF PLAYTESTING... They could have made the classes rock paper scissors 25 years ago... Wonder why they didn't?

Copyright issues?

[sirgog]

Balance is not fun, Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced.

Gaming is the act of making choices that are meaningful and entertaining, rock paper scissors doesn't have much entertainment value... because the choices are shallow and thus not meaningful.

Balance is vanilla, bland. D&D has never had balance and yet is one of the the most successful games in the history of games. Why? Because all the classes can bring something to the table, most of them are "the best" at one specific thing, but variously bad/awful/hilarious at other things.

FORTY YEARS OF PLAYTESTING... They could have made the classes rock paper scissors 25 years ago... Wonder why they didn't?

Balance and variety are two different things.

But balance doesn't decrease variety, it increases it.

Right now if you are running non-trivial content at high level, you really have only four EDs available to you, and those EDs dictate most of the rest of your build.

It's not like Shadowdancers are the worst at one thing and the best at another, they are just bad to mediocre at everything. Ditto Magister, Fatesinger, Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel.

Have you ever played Rock, Paper, Scissors where the balance is removed and Paper is weakened to the point that it loses to Rock? The game is AWFUL, because there is only one correct move (say Rock) for each player unless you want to lose the game. DDO isn't far from that now.


This is not a call for all classes/EDs to do the same things, instead it is a call to make all of them useful to a group.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Balance and variety are two different things.

But balance doesn't decrease variety, it increases it.

Right now if you are running non-trivial content at high level, you really have only four EDs available to you, and those EDs dictate most of the rest of your build.

It's not like Shadowdancers are the worst at one thing and the best at another, they are just bad to mediocre at everything. Ditto Magister, Fatesinger, Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel.

Have you ever played Rock, Paper, Scissors where the balance is removed and Paper is weakened to the point that it loses to Rock? The game is AWFUL, because there is only one correct move (say Rock) for each player unless you want to lose the game. DDO isn't far from that now.


This is not a call for all classes/EDs to do the same things, instead it is a call to make all of them useful to a group.

A rock would go straight through paper, especially if it had a good impulse item.

[Holleyz]

Since we all know that the Monkcher (Monk Archer) is Over powered and out of balance in the game and that it would butthurt a lot of them and cause them to take their ball and go home. How about we don't nerf anyone or anything? Instead what if we made some of the weapons Class restricted like a lot of the Dwarven axes are, Karmas are and so on and so forth. Ok example: Monkchers can use a bow and PRETEND to be a RANGER.....BUT Make it to where only the PINON can even be picked up and equipped by a pure build Archer Ranger. I have a 12ranger/6monk/2fighter on Ghallanda and I have a 12monk/6ranger/2rogue on Khyber, on Cannith I have a 7ranger/6monk/2fighter and a pure build archer ranger. So to prevent the halfbreeds from using a class restricted weapon, make the weapon a minimum level 13 to even 18 minimum level that way the "splashed" builds cannot even pick it up. Everyone gets to keep what they have and be happy but at least it would give the PURE builds an edge to compete. I still don't think that its right that a multiclass is more powerful and better than a pure build character for obvious reasons (Pure class SPECIALIZE IN ONE WEAPON most of the time) but at least this would keep them alive in the game. As it is right now Pure builds are becoming extinct.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Since we all know that the Monkcher (Monk Archer) is Over powered and out of balance in the game and that it would butthurt a lot of them and cause them to take their ball and go home. How about we don't nerf anyone or anything? Instead what if we made some of the weapons Class restricted like a lot of the Dwarven axes are, Karmas are and so on and so forth. Ok example: Monkchers can use a bow and PRETEND to be a RANGER.....BUT Make it to where only the PINON can even be picked up and equipped by a pure build Archer Ranger. I have a 12ranger/6monk/2fighter on Ghallanda and I have a 12monk/6ranger/2rogue on Khyber, on Cannith I have a 7ranger/6monk/2fighter and a pure build archer ranger. So to prevent the halfbreeds from using a class restricted weapon, make the weapon a minimum level 13 to even 18 minimum level that way the "splashed" builds cannot even pick it up. Everyone gets to keep what they have and be happy but at least it would give the PURE builds an edge to compete. I still don't think that its right that a multiclass is more powerful and better than a pure build character for obvious reasons (Pure class SPECIALIZE IN ONE WEAPON most of the time) but at least this would keep them alive in the game. As it is right now Pure builds are becoming extinct.

What pure build specializes in ONE weapon?

Rangers? they get all martial weapons and the twf line, and all the bow feats, they can even use shields.

Paladins? um, nope. They get all martial weapons too.

Barbarians? I know they are supposed to use a great axe, like conan did... Oh wait, didn't he use a longs sword??? Yeah, that's because they can use all martial weapons too.

Fighters? Well fighter at least CAN specialize in a weapon, because you need 4 fighter levels to take weapon specialization. But that is not for ONE weapon, but for a variety of similar weapons.


The big butthurt that people have about rangers, is that they think ranger means archer. It doesn't.

[elvesunited]

Since we all know that the Monkcher (Monk Archer) is Over powered and out of balance in the game and that it would butthurt a lot of them and cause them to take their ball and go home. How about we don't nerf anyone or anything? Instead what if we made some of the weapons Class restricted like a lot of the Dwarven axes are, Karmas are and so on and so forth. Ok example: Monkchers can use a bow and PRETEND to be a RANGER.....BUT Make it to where only the PINON can even be picked up and equipped by a pure build Archer Ranger. I have a 12ranger/6monk/2fighter on Ghallanda and I have a 12monk/6ranger/2rogue on Khyber, on Cannith I have a 7ranger/6monk/2fighter and a pure build archer ranger. So to prevent the halfbreeds from using a class restricted weapon, make the weapon a minimum level 13 to even 18 minimum level that way the "splashed" builds cannot even pick it up. Everyone gets to keep what they have and be happy but at least it would give the PURE builds an edge to compete. I still don't think that its right that a multiclass is more powerful and better than a pure build character for obvious reasons (Pure class SPECIALIZE IN ONE WEAPON most of the time) but at least this would keep them alive in the game. As it is right now Pure builds are becoming extinct.

Why does balancing the pure ranger and the monkcher require taking something away from the monkcher? It seems vindictive.
Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )

So let's do the math. How much of doubleshot increase would it take for the DPS of the pure ranger archer to equal or even slightly beat that of the monkcher? +25% doubleshot, +33% doubleshot? And you'd still have manyshot for those occassions you need to kill something fast.

[Teh_Troll]

So we're nerfing monks right?

[HatsuharuZ]

So we're nerfing monks right?

Gotta nerf the game first. Well, EE at least.

[Teh_Troll]

Gotta nerf the game first. Well, EE at least.

nah, people just need to take my "How to not be terrible at DDO course." My rates are reasonable.

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

Just make the game, so that not any run of the mill build can solo everything.

Like the original developers envisioned, back when I beta tested the game 8 years ago.

Back then, you couldn't solo... it WAS about the social/grouping.

Traps hurt in quests that had them... you NEEDED a trapper... (and not a wiz with rogue skills)
Bosses hit hard and you NEEDED melee types in the group.
Casters were NEEDED for crowd control, and buffs.
Healers were NEEDED to keep everyone alive


Now, I can just roll up a 12monk/6ranger/2fvs.... weeee i dont need to group.

Lame... just pathetic.

Not once did i ever solo in pen and paper... not once... The developers they have now.. probably have never played pen and paper. The original vision is so far gone...probably unable to get back to the good ol days.

DDO is not about dungeon crawling anymore... It went from dungeon crawling, to power creep.

I remember, the best times i had playing... was questing.. getting into a group and trying to see if we could accomplish a particular quest... dungeon crawling with others to try to accomplish the tasks given to us inside quests....was friggin sweet..

Now its just invis to end.. kill boss, grab chest.. ddoor out.

8 years is a good run though.

Fivefinga on Sarlona
Beta tester and founder.

[Holleyz]

Why does balancing the pure ranger and the monkcher require taking something away from the monkcher? It seems vindictive.
Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )

So let's do the math. How much of doubleshot increase would it take for the DPS of the pure ranger archer to equal or even slightly beat that of the monkcher? +25% doubleshot, +33% doubleshot? And you'd still have manyshot for those occassions you need to kill something fast.

Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )
And why do you think that is??????????????????????? could it be that the Monkchers IS overpowered? Yes it is. I have 7 of them and I play them all and I'm telling you from first hand experience that they are OVERPOWERED. OUT OF BALANCE. I mean heck there has even been threads on the forum about people joking about NOT having to run the quest because the Monkcher has completed it by the time everyone else has finished buffing at the entrance of the quest.. What does that tell you? NOT BALANCED. Pure builds don't stand a chance against them. Most if not all the other builds don't. YOU SAID SO YOURSELF with this statement "Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )"

[Holleyz]

Just make the game, so that not any run of the mill build can solo everything.

Like the original developers envisioned, back when I beta tested the game 8 years ago.

Back then, you couldn't solo... it WAS about the social/grouping.

Traps hurt in quests that had them... you NEEDED a trapper... (and not a wiz with rogue skills)
Bosses hit hard and you NEEDED melee types in the group.
Casters were NEEDED for crowd control, and buffs.
Healers were NEEDED to keep everyone alive


Now, I can just roll up a 12monk/6ranger/2fvs.... weeee i dont need to group.

Lame... just pathetic.

Not once did i ever solo in pen and paper... not once... The developers they have now.. probably have never played pen and paper. The original vision is so far gone...probably unable to get back to the good ol days.

DDO is not about dungeon crawling anymore... It went from dungeon crawling, to power creep.

I remember, the best times i had playing... was questing.. getting into a group and trying to see if we could accomplish a particular quest... dungeon crawling with others to try to accomplish the tasks given to us inside quests....was friggin sweet..

Now its just invis to end.. kill boss, grab chest.. ddoor out.

8 years is a good run though.

Fivefinga on Sarlona
Beta tester and founder.

THIS is so so so VERY TRUE.

[Fhauvial]

Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )
And why do you think that is??????????????????????? could it be that the Monkchers IS overpowered? Yes it is. I have 7 of them and I play them all and I'm telling you from first hand experience that they are OVERPOWERED. OUT OF BALANCE. I mean heck there has even been threads on the forum about people joking about NOT having to run the quest because the Monkcher has completed it by the time everyone else has finished buffing at the entrance of the quest.. What does that tell you? NOT BALANCED. Pure builds don't stand a chance against them. Most if not all the other builds don't. YOU SAID SO YOURSELF with this statement "Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )"

There are plenty of other builds that use Pinion. Making them class-restricted as was suggested earlier would hurt those builds more than it would Monkchers.

My first character was, and still is, a Pure Ranger btw.

[Holleyz]

What pure build specializes in ONE weapon?

Rangers? they get all martial weapons and the twf line, and all the bow feats, they can even use shields.

Paladins? um, nope. They get all martial weapons too.

Barbarians? I know they are supposed to use a great axe, like conan did... Oh wait, didn't he use a longs sword??? Yeah, that's because they can use all martial weapons too.

Fighters? Well fighter at least CAN specialize in a weapon, because you need 4 fighter levels to take weapon specialization. But that is not for ONE weapon, but for a variety of similar weapons.


The big butthurt that people have about rangers, is that they think ranger means archer. It doesn't.

about half way down the page SIR... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

[Fhauvial]

about half way down the page SIR... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Technically rangers specialized in one fighting style, and were granted feats depending on which they chose to specialize in.



Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and shields (except tower shields).


And just to touch on this..


What pure build specializes in ONE weapon?

The big butthurt that people have about rangers, is that they think ranger means archer. It doesn't.

Ranger could mean archer in 3.5e, and that's how many players played them. If you specialized in Archery, you weren't given the TWF feats, and were a pure archer.

In DDO, they get both. Personally, I take this more as compensation for not being granted Animal Companions (a core feature of the class), rather than Rangers not intended to be one of the most devastating archers.

They were not necessarily the only option, however:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0

(Edit: That thread is incomplete, but it shows just how many ways there were to build an Archer in 3.5e)

[blerkington]

about half way down the page SIR... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Hi,

You should have noticed by now that there are some major differences between the 3.5 ruleset and DDO.

In DDO, you are not required to choose between melee and ranged specialisation as a ranger they same way you are in some versions of the PnP rules. That is why I and many others here have been telling you that the ranger is not a ranged specialist in this game.

Referring to a set of rules for a different game does not prove your point at all. DDO is based upon 3.5E, but at this point of its evolution it is also a very different thing from the original ruleset in many ways.

If you put some effort into learning the game you are playing now, rather than arguing how it is or should be more like another, different game, it will help you to become a better player, I promise.

I don't think it can be explained any more clearly than that. You can continue sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to believe it, but that won't make you any less wrong.

Thanks, and good luck.

[jskinner937]

Very simple IMO to bring and preserve order....

Buff capstones. The EP almost killed pure class save for a few builds. Some like multiclass, others prefer pure class. There should honestly be a significant advantage in favor of dedicating every level and a large amount of enhancement points spent in a specific class/prestige in their field, such as shore up a weakness or give them epic power in a specialty. A few examples I would like to see...

Archmage 60 points spent 20 lvls wizard gain 10% reduction in spell point costs on all spells
Palemaster 10% negative energy vulnerability or maybe +4 dc necro or lesser combo of both
XXXSavant 10% reduction spell point cost in their element + 10 SP
Occult Slayer On failed reflex save gain improved evasion for 1min with 2min cooldown
Ravager +40 SR when raged
Frezied Barbarian +10 Str when raged
DWS +4d6 stacking sneak attack damage
AA (full ranger only) manyshot cooldown reduced 25%
Tempest +4 damage to all rolls
Assasin +4 dc to assassinate
Mechanic +4 damage to all ranged rolls
Shintao/Henshin/Ninja Spy +2 to all tactical DCs and monk special abilities
Radiant Servant +4 turns and 10 positive SP

Not gonna do all, but you get the point. Capstones have always been lacking, and the point of the EP was to bring more diversity to builds. Instead it just made more monk and pally splash cookie cutter builds, while making it less viable to stay pure. DDO is largely a PnP fan base and many of us grew up playing pure class, make it so. Oh by the way Paladin an Bard pure class really need the most love of anyone.

[SirValentine]

Balance is not fun, Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced.

Gaming is the act of making choices that are meaningful and entertaining, rock paper scissors doesn't have much entertainment value... because the choices are shallow and thus not meaningful.


Interesting example. I disagree with your conclusion.

Rock-Paper-Scissors is MUCH more meaningful and entertaining than just Rock-Scissors-Scissors, the unbalanced version, where everyone chooses Rock if they want to win, Scissors if they enjoy the flavor build AND don't mind getting smashed all the time.

But more seriously, Rock-Paper-Scissors is the simplest example of a non-transitive set of choices, where there is no single "best" choice, because which is better is situational. I think that's what we should have in DDO, where different builds actually are meaningfully better in different meaningful in-game situations, instead of where only a few are good in almost all situations, a few more might be better at some specialty, but in such a narrow way it doesn't much matter, and, many more are simply clearly inferior.

Again, nobody wants all the choices to be the same; contrariwise, we actually want the choices to be meaningful.

[SirValentine]

If you put some effort into learning the game you are playing now, rather than arguing how it is or should be more like another, different game, it will help you to become a better player, I promise.


Since this thread is entirely about us arguing about how we think DDO should be, I think it's quite fair for someone to argue that it should be more like D&D's rules.

[blerkington]

Since this thread is entirely about us arguing about how we think DDO should be, I think it's quite fair for someone to argue that it should be more like D&D's rules.

Hi,

The majority of that particular tangent has been about how things are now, but fair enough.

For what it's worth, I think stripping rangers of half of their feats would be a very bad thing for the class and the game.

Thanks.

[danlan]

The problem of balance is only relevant in the context of epic elite, which is directly caused by the following features of epic elite (and the issue is worsening since update 15):

1. inflated monster hp (especially for orange and red named)

2. inflaged monster saves (literally untouchable)

3. inflated monster damages (renders non-ranged combat styles nonviable)

4. infated monster dc (causes players to overly focus on building up saves at the expense of all other varieties; if you dont build saves, you die instantly from cometfall/evo spells/soundburst etc.)

5. especially from update 19, the number of trashes also increase dramatically. This is very annoying combined with the above 4 points.

All of the above render almost all classes combinations powerless except only quite few ones like shiradi arcanes and furyshot monchers. This worsening situation is killing the versatility of builds (which is IMHO what most people like about this game) and the health of the game.


IMHO, the following need to be done as a matter of urgency:

1. EE monster's hp/saves/damages and spell dcs all need to be tuned down to ensure viability for a variety of other builds (not just Shiradi arcanes and furyshot monchers).


2. Shiradi casters can hit from long distance, remain totally unaffected by monster saves, and do more damage than any other casters! Also worth noting is that current mechanism allows shiradi arcanes to multi class like 4 fvs and 2 monk/2 pal etc, and that allowed shiradi arcanes to enjoy top-notch dps, best sustainability and best saves. This is too much of a privilege inaccessible to all other builds. (well, except the furyshot shot build as noted below).

My suggestion would be while making adjustment to Epic elites, it would be necessary to make all procs by shiradi magnified by say, 40% (or another ratio deemed appropriate by the dev team) of spell powers.

I believe with this change in place, shiradi arcanes will remain as a top-notch build (retain solid dps and can maintain top notch defence/sustainability), but will not be so overwhelmingly better than other casters as the current situation stands.


3. Furyshot moncher

Again current mechanism allows furyshot moncher to multi class 6 monk and 2 pal, and that allowed moncher to enjoy THE BEST dps (burst dps so far ahead of any other builds), and THE BEST DEFENSE (top notch saves, fly, dodge, high hp, stay ranged...). This is too much of a privilege inaccessible to all other builds.

I would suggest that adrenaline can only work on the first damage from manyshot/ten thousand star (if techically possible)

If the above is not possible, then maybe make adrenline not regenerating from ranged attacks.

At the very least, maybe change ten thousand star to not work on bows.


Even if dev changes so that adrenaline can only work on the first damage from manyshot/ten thousand star, furyshot moncher will remain as a top-notch build (retain top-notch dps but not overwhelming dps) and can maintain best defence), but will not be so vastly superior to all other builds as the current situation stands.

[Eth]

One thing I would like to throw into the discussion is that character balance and character power is something that doesn't have to be tied to classes, enhancements and destinies only.
Have you tried playing a naked character? Not very powerful, no matter your build.
Itemization is a big factor when it comes to character power.
We already have an item that uses an interesting mechanic. There's not even developement time needed to implement items which powers differ depending on race/class/level.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_Vengeance

Now let's make an example with a current cookie cutter build:
12 Fgt/ 6 Monk/ 2 Pali using an ESOS

Now lets introduce a new weapon comparable with the ESOS, for the sake of simplicity, that scales with fighter levels:
Standard version: Greatsword, 2[2d6] + 6, 19-20 x2
Fighter lvl 1 modification: Greatsword, 2.5[2d6] + 10, 18-20 x2
Fighter lvl 12 modification: Greatsword, 2.5[2d6] + 10, 18-20 x3
Fighter lvl 20 modification: Greatsword, 5[3d6] + 15, 18-20 x4

Now our fighter has to make a DECISION. Do I want to keep my monk/pali splash for more survivability or do I want to wield that shiny sword with 20 fighter levels for more DPS (and grab the fighter capstone while I'm at it)?

[janave]

Why does Character Balance matter?

Being able feels good.
Being useful feels good.
Not being commented on for gimpedness feels good. (Peeps compare a lot, some voice it out in their own 'style')
Die-ing much doesnt feel good.
Success feels good, overcoming challgenge feels good. Forced challenge, that is hard to do anything about but rebuilding the whole character does not feel good.
...

Why isn't every character made stronger, to match the strongest characters already out there?

Some powergap is not an issue, there is just too much scaling from too many sources now. Also those who have the power sources usually know the quests better, since they have probably completed them much more times. If Vets would group with Vets, this would be less of an issue.

The contrast is just too big now for newer players, or in other words Vets are too far ahead in comparison. Id probably try with a TRx2 only difficulty, that yields more xp and lets say 2% better named stuff drop, lets see how this work out. This would ease the conflict between vet group vs newbie, newbie group vs vet.

What would really have improved my overall experience as new player is not having that guy who narrated the whole quest so we can "explore and discover" stuff, instead of taking a guided tour on a railride.

What are some examples of things that could be better balanced?

Progression:
-> Casters getting instant kills when/where mob hp is starting to escalate out of proportions is a good indicator of lackful balance.
-> Autogrant abilities, feats, spells etc should be looked into.
-> Melee characters lacking survivability, Casters getting super-defenses too easily is a common balance problem.

Characters that are more demanding to play, mostly due to external expectations should be easier to cope with, and bring them line with the content. A nod to 'Heal Savvy' classes.

Epics: Currently feels like a totally different game on top of the 'old' game.

Gear: (This might be hard to swallow for some) I would tone down all the ingame gear, as it is going a little hack&slashy.. we can already dualwield ponies. It is time to think about all that twink that was 'left in' for later review. If all gear is toned down fairly/evenly, noone will complain (much).
People will find ways to cope with the added challange, and you can start improving the balance right away.

Raids: being less elite-centric. Make them challenging without being straight punishing(euw Abbot). I dont mind if there is a challenge++ mode, where the random loot, rare loot (tomes) drop is somewhat better, named loot should not be EN/EH/EE distributed, this just widens the gap.

Classes:
I would touch multiclassing with great care, that is the single most attractive feature of character customization in the entire game.

[Vyxern]

Personally rather than the nerf bat being weilded , I would rather see Capstones revisited , at the very least , taking FVS as an example the Capstone giving 2 Cha and not even the option for +2 Wis (or choice of either) is weak and if capstones were increased to be inline with the game as it stands now I feel this would help "pure" builds vs multiclass (which doesnt reduce the attractiveness or effectiveness of multi's which is a major plus for the game over others) .

[GoRinNoSho]

Currently my thoughts on character balance are as follows:

Every adjustment in character capabilities causes a shift as min-maxers attempt to find the new thing. There have already been several cases of unintended side effects. We know that level 30 and an adjustment to Epic Destinies or at least Epic Destiny feats coming down the line.

Assuming that this topic relates to near-term work, then the re-balancing will just tip the player base only to have them tipped again when we get level 30. Thus you have 2 re-balances in the queue as inevitably, there will be a period where some adjustment will be required due to the new capabilities gained at 29 and 30.

My recommendation would be to wait and adjust after 30 has been a thing for a bit. Why? People have already gotten use to the FotM and have used them for a while. 30 will bring the final stake in the sand for basic innate character development. 30 is in a few updates.

Instead of character balance at the moment/near term, I would focus on content coming with the new level set. Every level bump has seen a vacuum of level appropriate content for the new area. While there are currently 2 raids and 1 quest in the 29-30 range, that isn't much to cover the estimated ~3.2 million experience required for 28 to 30.

So my thoughts for now would be to focus on content now to cut the inevitable complaints with the arrival of 30. Then focus on re-balancing after the level 30 adjustments have had time to bake. Unless balance is wrought through the advancement to 29-30.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Ok example: Monkchers can use a bow and PRETEND to be a RANGER.....BUT Make it to where only the PINON can even be picked up and equipped by a pure build Archer Ranger.

There is math floating around out there (in other DDO forums, not sure if it has been discussed in these ones) that the Thunder Forged bow does more dps than the Pinion. Do with that information what you will.

Apologies for the derailment. Really, any discussion about the bows that are available to archers is essentially a derailment anyway, right? - since the central issue (when discussing archery) is the difference in survivability of ranged attackers VS melee, and secondarily the possible imbalance in dps potential that comes from enhancement/destiny synergies for ranged characters? I mean, the tens of thousands of damage that can potentially come out of a Slaying, Adrenalized Manyshot following a Pin doesn't really have much to do with the bow.

[BigErkyKid]

First of all, thank you for this. I appreciate enormously feeling that the devs do listen to the balance concerns and second shame on the guys that spam this thread. I blame you for not letting me read what other forumites think. (Is there active forum moderation? I would love to be able to report spam, specially in "important" threads like this)


1. Ranged vs melee.

Problem: Ranged characters have the best defense through kiting and they hit very hard.
It is clear that it is too easy to kite to death enemies. Adding the shiradi effect and other destinies that allow for enormous high burst damage has made ranged as effective as melees at damaging while keeping enormous survivability.

Solution: Nerf kiting.

* Huge drop in backpedalling speed and higher drop in speed from casting / attacking.

* Nerf jump-cast, jump-shoot. It should slow you down as much as doing it while NOT jumping.

Ranged may keep some high damage, but now they need to be shielded by some front line fighters to stay alive. If they choose to improve their defense, they should then sacrifice damage.

PS-EDIT: Give mobs better ranged abilities to avoid people shooting from unreachable places! A melee mob should always try to melee, but if he cannot because he cannot reach (because he is blocked by terrain, not because he is engaging another player), then he should hit ranged and hit hard!

3. Self healing.

Problem: Healers mostly redundant outside of raids, favors soloism, introduces imbalances between those who can heal very well and those who can't.
I guess I am most famous for asking some changes in the ability WF/BFs have to self heal as arcanes. In any case, it is clear that some classes/races/builds have advantages in self healing over others without sacrifizing much in exchange.

Solution: Re think self healing.

* If you get better self healing in a class/race/destiny, you should sacrifize something in exchange.

* In relation to monster damage, should primarily non healing classes be able to self heal by how much: a) completely - be able to stay alive throughout the quest without additional healing, b) partially - either need to be extremely careful or need to have external heals, c) almost not relevant - external heals needed, self healing mostly as relieve for healers.

A choice needs to be made and monster damage / healing ability adjusted according to it. My preference is b).

3. Shiradi and using ED out of one's natural sphere.

Problem: Shiradi provides the best DPS in the game at very low sp cost and ranged.

Again, see the point melee vs ranged. In addition, Shiradi has made redundant any in ED any caster than does not specialize in insta death (good luck with that, not very effective even for high DCs given cooldowns and other mechanics) or in spamming missiles and no-save rays. The amount of damage that it provides for very low SP usage is insane.

Solution: Shiradi procs not affected by spell power.

This would bring back shiradi procs to what I think was the original intention, a side bonus to an attack that was sizable in epic levels (1-6 cold damage not cutting it anymore in a mob that has 10K HP). Think about base damages so that they remain useful but NOT determinant to the point of making the base spell redundant.

A broader problem is that some classes synergize extremely well with ED outside their spheres. Perhaps you may want to restrict people to using the powerful abilities of only ED in their sphere. Some slight splashing allowed through fate, but not much.

Important: if you nerf shiradi, give nukers some chance in epic content. They cannot hit the mobs effectively now, they blow their blue bars killing trash.

4. Multiclassing

Problem: Front loaded key enhancements and feats favor deep multiclassing to be achieve very powerful and "unnatural" builds.

Examples can be found everywhere, the most common one evasion being used by almost every single build nowadays.

Solution: backload the cool enhancements and feats.

Careful to leave some for earlier on to allow for some flavor multiclass builds.

5. Evasion vs other forms of damage avoidance.

Problem: Evasion is prince in damage avoidance, only topped by kiting.

Solution: Give PRR and AC more relevance. Give melees a fortitude spell damage soaking ability (elemental absorption).

The trade off should be: if I evade/dodge i don't get meaningful PRR and AC. If I have meaningful PRR and AC, it is helpful enough in some situations to compensate the loss of evasion and dodge. To sum it up, give more chances to shine to other defenses beside evasion.

6. Epic mobs and the "tactical approach".

Problem: Epic mobs negate sophisticated gameplay. They save against tactical feats and spells and the most effective way to play them is to have top DPS.

Solution: More mobs and weaker.

I am all in for providing a different feel for epics (not just heroic scaled up in abilities and power). For me, this different feel would be to bring EPIC battles into play. An epic battle is NOT beating the same troll as in level 13, except that now he hits for massive amounts and is insanely resilient. An epic battle is dealing with hordes of enemies that drain you and require group efforts to fulfill the different necessities of the group.
Epic mobs should be resistant to jacks of all trades but NOT to specialists. That is, a CC specialist should be able to perform CC if he has given up on other functions but a nuker sorcerer should not be able to effectively do CC. Melees and casters should not be able to self healing without external help.

Finally: careful with LAG! I am sure instances can be broken down in smaller areas and other tricks can be brought in to fight the lag monster.

7. Healers and group efforts.

Problem: the game is moving more to BYO everything.

Solution: Require specialists and give healers slas.

See my point 6 for the specialist approach. Finally, give healers healing slas so that they don't feel that they either just heal (not fun!) or just kill (not useful for the group, they don't excel at it anyway!). An alternative is giving enhancements that heavily discount SP usage for healing.
Don't by shy increasing healing abilities to healing specialists, it will surely benefit the game!

[EdsanDarkbane]

I really respect the change to ranged combat. I have seen all types of rangers and Multi-Class builds shine. I would shy away from debuffing these classes and synergies. Players found something that works great, let it be.

The Angelic Epic Destiny...Transform into an Angel of Heavens!? *** awesome! I feel like we are losing out by the lack of this destiny's design. It needs way more power.

Taking a look at adding the popular Overwhelming Critical, into race lines may help the less played races. I.E. Longbows for Elves.

Top players i new always had UMD to self heal, or a couple of loh's to toss out. You wont remove this play style. Please dont try.

Maybe the way to go is to Advertise these builds that everyone wants nerfed. Add in some new kick ass ones while ur at it.

How about being able to raise base dmg dice on a given weapon based on the players Monster Manual completion?

[noble_pirate]

The state of balance in the game is terrible.

At the 20 cap, there were several 'best' archetypes for character builds and many more that were good. To list a few, ALL of which were viable in speedruns of the harder content:

- Primarily healing divine (viable but mediocre)
- Offensive casting divine (top-notch)
- Melee divine, monk splash (solid)
- Melee divine, no splash (mediocre)
- Evasion melee warchanter (solid)
- No evasion melee warchanter (solid)
- Spellsinger with Enchantment DC casting (fringe viable)
- Spellsinger with personal melee capability (fringe)
- Rogue, TWF Khopesh all-out DPS (solid)
- Barbarian melee DPS (solid)
- 'Wall of HP' Stalwart fighter (top-notch in some raids, meh in 6 person content)
- AC/HP Stalwart fighter (solid in some raids, absolutely incredible in others)
- Barbarian 'wall of HP' tank/DPS hybrid (fringe)
- Paladin self-healing tank with or without AC (fringe)
- Enchantment WF wizard with DoTs (top-notch)
- Necro WF wizard with DoTs (top-notch)
- Necro Pale Master with Torc (the best build)

That's just a few archetypes that come to mind.

Now we have Monkchers if you want to do physical damage, and Shiradis if you want to cast spells as the ONLY top-notch builds, and Master's Blitz and Fury of the Wild as the ONLY other viable builds. Everything else is so far behind that it is ridiculous. And now content has been designed that (at least on EE) assumes all players have one of these broken builds.



The solution is simple but a lot of work.

First, nerf the hell out of Furyshot and Blitz and Shiradi, with the goal of reducing their effectiveness to at most 105% of the effectiveness of other characters.
Secondly, rebalance all of the quests that were designed under the assumption that players are using broken builds. If optimal group DPS falls from 50000 party-wide to 20000, then mobs need to lose 60% of their HP.
Third, there'll be a couple of people that whine over the nerf (despite the fact that their characters are still capable of completing quests in about the same amount of time and with the same overall difficulty). Grease the door, so that it DOES hit them on the way out. Hard. These people are poison - let them go and ruin a competing MMO.
Finally, offer some form of respec options to players whose characters are significantly broken by the change, ideally including the option to 'respec' now-useless Ranger past lives into different passive past life feats.



Edit: Perfect balance is unattainable. That is no excuse for having a situation that is so unbalanced that only 2-3 builds are even remotely viable. In Heroic levels, Sorcerers are significantly overpowered compared to every other class, but the Fighter doesn't feel totally useless in most content.

well said, +1

[Fhauvial]

1. Ranged vs melee.

Problem: Ranged characters have the best defense through kiting and they hit very hard.
It is clear that it is too easy to kite to death enemies. Adding the shiradi effect and other destinies that allow for enormous high burst damage has made ranged as effective as melees at damaging while keeping enormous survivability.

Solution: Nerf kiting.

* Huge drop in backpedalling speed and higher drop in speed from casting / attacking.

* Nerf jump-cast, jump-shoot. It should slow you down as much as doing it while NOT jumping.

Ranged may keep some high damage, but now they need to be shielded by some front line fighters to stay alive. If they choose to improve their defense, they should then sacrifice damage.

PS-EDIT: Give mobs better ranged abilities to avoid people shooting from unreachable places! A melee mob should always try to melee, but if he cannot because he cannot reach (because he is blocked by terrain, not because he is engaging another player), then he should hit ranged and hit hard!


The more I read this thread, the more I think the issue is not kiting, and this concerns me. It's not that ranged damage is stronger, but that melees can't engage. If you nerf kiting, you're removing what has always been a ranged characters primary defense (hiding and running away) and still not addressing the root of the problem. This is going to put the game into a worse state than it already is, and almost certain to result in a lot of players leaving the game.

Kiting is a symptom of a deeper problem with the defensive system. It's not the problem in itself. The solution is to fix the defensive system.

---

The rest of this post I (mostly) don't agree with. Shiradi is not the best damage in the game. I've been experimenting with different builds in Shiradi lately and this definitely isn't the case. It's SP-effecient, and a product of designing encounters with very high HP monsters and casters having a limited mana pool. The reason it's a popular destiny has less to do with damage and more to do with resource management.

Much of this post shows an ignorance of the current state of the game (no offense).

[phalaeo]

Barbs aren't suppose to be able to heal PERIOD! ABSOULTE FINAL! and that goes double for casting of

What about Halfling Barbs with dragonmarks?

[elvesunited]

Solution: Nerf kiting.
I get this. Really it isn't the damage. It's the ability to inflict damage while staying out of harms way at the same time. But of course the flip of this is that the developers have rendered the top level enemies so powerful that range is the only option for beating them. Take away the kite and some epic elite content may become impossible. And of course you could end up gimping archers if you go too far.


Problem: Healers mostly redundant outside of raids, favors soloism, introduces imbalances between those who can heal very well and those who can't.
The underlying issue being that characters are simply taking too much damage. I don't mind self-healing so much because I like to have the option of soloing easier content when I don't feel like grouping. But I've also tended to avoid classes with no healing ability whatsoever such as pure rogues, fighters, an barbarians. ( who pretty much have to take hires to solo anything past a certain point )


I guess I am most famous for asking some changes in the ability WF/BFs have to self heal as arcanes. In any case, it is clear that some classes/races/builds have advantages in self healing over others without sacrifizing much in exchange.
In theory the trade off here is that standard cleric healing of the WF/BF is significantly hampered.


Important: if you nerf shiradi, give nukers some chance in epic content. They cannot hit the mobs effectively now, they blow their blue bars killing trash.
The issue here being that you'd effectively wipe out an entire build concept. Nukers simply aren't effective in epic elite. The hp and saves of the enemies are simply too high.


A broader problem is that some classes synergize extremely well with ED outside their spheres. Perhaps you may want to restrict people to using the powerful abilities of only ED in their sphere. Some slight splashing allowed through fate, but not much.
Some classes like the Battle Engineer Artificer or dexterity based fighter or DPS Paladin synergize very poorly with the ED in their spheres. Personally I like the variety to be able to experiment with other epic destinies. Don't make changes that pigeonhole classes into a destiny. Variety is the spice of life.


Solution: backload the cool enhancements and feats.
The genie has already been let out of this bottle. For example changing when Monk/rogue gets evasion would ruin a ridiculous number of builds. Any changes made should not destroy build designs. Players should not wake up one day and find their character build they planned and spent much time building has suddenly been rendered utterly gimped.


Problem: Evasion is prince in damage avoidance, only topped by kiting.
Solution: Give PRR and AC more relevance. Give melees a fortitude spell damage soaking ability (elemental absorption).

As mentioned before this is actually a dungeon/monster problem. When the number of reflex save spell attacks becomes unbalanced ( 6 enemy casters all doing fireballs? ) all characters who don't have evasion suffer. I'd think that characters need some sort of elemental resistance based on armor worn. Here's a radical thought. How about PPR effect spell elemental damage as well?

[BigErkyKid]

The more I read this thread, the more I think the issue is not kiting, and this concerns me. It's not that ranged damage is stronger, but that melees can't engage. If you nerf kiting, you're removing what has always been a ranged characters primary defense (hiding and running away) and still not addressing the root of the problem. This is going to put the game into a worse state than it already is, and almost certain to result in a lot of players leaving the game.

Kiting is a symptom of a deeper problem with the defensive system. It's not the problem in itself. The solution is to fix the defensive system.

---

The rest of this post I (mostly) don't agree with. Shiradi is not the best damage in the game. I've been experimenting with different builds in Shiradi lately and this definitely isn't the case. It's SP-effecient, and a product of designing encounters with very high HP monsters and casters having a limited mana pool. The reason it's a popular destiny has less to do with damage and more to do with resource management.

Much of this post shows an ignorance of the current state of the game (no offense).


Thanks for the gentle criticism. Would you care to elaborate on the defensive system? It is an obscure statement so far.

Regarding shiradi:

1. Only competitive option for a nuker (disagree on that?) and hence best damage for casters.

2. Very high in the damage ranking. Perhaps not best damage among ALL classes when played in caster (monkchers do reach insane amounts of damage using synergies with other ED), but it takes very specific builds to beat it. Yes, I have also seen some of the melee youtube videos.

Couple that with the fact that it is not a gear reliant build (just grind the millions of xp to the correct sphere or buy your way to it) and I would say it is one of the easiest top damage builds out there.


Other than the precision on shiradi, would you care to elaborate what I am getting wrong in the rest of points? This is partly because I am a bit offended (not raging, but no one likes to be told he got "everything wrong" ;) ) and partly because if I am misunderstanding a game mechanic, I would very much want to know.

[Leclaire1]

After initially writing a book on my thoughts on this subject I then deleted it and am trying to restate what I think to be the core problem succinctly.

I don't think the problem is a couple of highly powered abilities. I think the core problem is that balancing quests in the way the devs have has made many builds irrelevant or frustrating to run at high levels. In particular, casters who don't have a persistent DPS option are pretty much left in the dust as their sp pools run out real fast if they dish out damage the way most persistent options do at these levels (and there are still plenty of mobs left behind when sp is gone) and they can't hit the DCs for CC and instakill spells (which are the best method of sp preservation at high level) unless they put all their feats in spell pen and school spec and run in magister with all AP in Int boosts. And that sucks. I won't even begin to mention the lack of shrines in the new raids and many other epic quests which only magnify this torture. I have two wizards that I loved playing in heroic levels, but I don't play them any more because it sucks so bad on epic. They are both sitting at 20 collecting dust until I TR one of them and run her in heroic content where playing an arcane is actually enjoyable. I already Tr'ed my FVS and am running her as a warpriest simply because I don't want to torture myself damage or dc casting on epics anymore.

On the other hand, I think it ridiculous when people say that "only two or three builds are viable" on EE content anymore. IMO, this is pure nonsense. I run EE often on a variety of non-uberbuilds all the time and enjoy doing so and am not irrelevant. As long as I have persistent DPS, some measure of self-sufficiency, and a little bit of self healing I am good. Hence the state of the epic (elite) game- persistent, self-sufficient DPS rules and playing a blue bar sucks badly and then you die. This is also true of the new raids.

Thus, in my estimation, the solution is not about nerfing two or three power builds, it is about finding various avenues to buff non-persistent DPS. If casters with limited blue bars can regain relevance in raids and EE quests we'll be a lot closer to player balance.



PS- If contrary to this you decide to go ahead and nerf certain key abilities, please remember that you can't have it both ways. If you nerf these abilities, you have a moral obligation to also nerf all the quest content which was built with these abilities in mind. In the post you said you'd rather change one or two key abilities than to make broad content changes, but it doesn't work that way. Either you nerf these abilities along with all content built around them (starting with the new raids!) or you find ways to make other builds relevant in said content as well. I'd obviously prefer the latter, but I think we all have a nightmare of waking up to a game where it suddenly sucks to play all builds and not just half of them, and I'll take the middle option over that any day.

EDIT- Yes, I do realize that shiradi caster is a decent persistent option, and that is what I theoretically plan for my other wizard. What sucks is that it is the ONLY option for blue bars these days (on account of, as someone just said above, resource management), and is really only fantastic for wizards with missile SLAs who can capitalize on on proc chances with multiple projectiles. This does not make blue bar playing relevant or enjoyable as a whole.

[Uska]

is it ok if I agree with this..sorta? I can go along with rage increasing DR tied to class level, but at 20 would like to see a good increase that scales appropriately for epics. if its done right and theres good survivability, could give pause to players to either multi class or stay pure.

I like the idea better that someone else came up with having PRR tied to type of armor where heavy armor would offer the highest amount and those pajama wearers cant even come close. if DR is already scaling better for barbs, than the PRR from armor plus enhancements, etc to boost it would add to a better defense for them. this of course depends on how much reduction, if any, the devs do with epic mobs dps.

It should scale for epics I do think barbs need some boost there for survivabiluty just not self-healing they should soak up and ignore damage.

[Uska]

Balance is not fun, Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced.

Gaming is the act of making choices that are meaningful and entertaining, rock paper scissors doesn't have much entertainment value... because the choices are shallow and thus not meaningful.

Balance is vanilla, bland. D&D has never had balance and yet is one of the the most successful games in the history of games. Why? Because all the classes can bring something to the table, most of them are "the best" at one specific thing, but variously bad/awful/hilarious at other things.

FORTY YEARS OF PLAYTESTING... They could have made the classes rock paper scissors 25 years ago... Wonder why they didn't?

Your forgetting lizard and Spock

[Aeryyn]

A few tidbits that I have picked out of the chatter:

Monks are overpowered. Well, no, not really. The way monk splashes are implemented make them seem overpowered.
The EE content demands these uber builds. I personally have no experience at that level, so I'll take y'alls word for it. If that is the case, fix the content, not the characters.
Balance means many things to many players. To me, the balance in this game is in the party, not the character. The characters are designed to each bring something to the table to make the adventure successful.


Just my 2cp.

[Uska]

What about Halfling Barbs with dragonmarks?

The exception that proves the rule?

[Vamm]

+1 to everything you said, with these being my top 3...




I do support beefing up Armor for us though, to make melee more viable.

Those EE mobs "should" be killing any Wizard they can get their mits on.

But... they should NOT be cutting down armored guys like they do now!

[Rautis]

I don't think player character abilities should be changed alot. Some epic abilities are way stronger than others, however. Balancing should come from clever changes to monsters. With changes like this both monster damage and hp could be lowered and game could still offer challenge. I will cover some areas of gameplay that I think have made the metagame what it is today.



Monsters not using things that bypass parts of layered defenses.

Displaced shadow fading monks with maxed dodge and some PRR are so popular because every one of those abilities works most of the time on physical damage. Each of these should have their uses but they should not work always.

Why are there no monster archers with force arrow imbue? Players can get it at level 2 at earliest yet the most epic of archer monsters dont have it. It should be common ability on archer monsters. This ability bypasses incorporeal. Some melee monsters could come with ghost touch if it makes any sense lore wise. True seeing can be cast at level 9 but you rarely encounter it on monsters. If the organization you're fighting against has clerics or mages there should be a good chance of monsters having true seeing. This would also affect invis runs though. Not sure if it is a bad thing. It's ok that PRR always works. Problem is that you can get enough PRR from enhancements, items and feats that you get past optimal investment point making extra PRR from armor rather meaningless. There could be adjustments to PRR mechanic to make armor count more. One option is to adjust the 0.65 in PRR formula (http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_resistance_rating) up or down depending on armor worn. So for different armors same PRR yields different results. There are also some abilities that bypass a portion of dodge rating. Certain monster types could use these.



Epic ward.

This ability simply ruins some playstyles that are viable in heroics. Rogue with crippling strike. Ravager with Mutilate and Cruel cut. Cloudkill using archmage. Bard with Suggestion. Even some Epic Destiny abilities suck when rats, wolves, bears, spiders and other epic monsters are immune or highly resistant to abilities you might have even specialized in.

Give dispells to hit/AC treatment. Replace epic ward with buffs or make it dispellable. Make different 'epic wards' suitable for different monster types. Normal animals or vermin should not gain any kind of ward while strong casters could have very strong magical protections. Melees could come with package that improves their performance(true seeing, haste, blur, freedom of movement, death ward, immunity to mind spells, abilities from old epic ward etc). All these should be dispellable. Most casters and potential UMD using monsters should come with night shield or shield. It is level 1 spell afterall Giving dispell ability to some classes could also buff them if dispell is useful. Paladin Holy Sword could become more like Holy Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holyAvenger) as self only weapon buff with dispell attempt on crit or so besides other benefits. Barbarian Occult Slayer could also gain dispell attempt ability at tier 5 or so. This could be a good time to give abjuration spell focuses an increase in dispell chance. Maybe also for abjuration archmages. Wider variety of build choices would be nice. Currently no one even thinks about focusing in abjuration.

Cost of getting a mob dispelled would play a big role in caster balance and should be adjusted carefully. Buffs on monsters can hurt both melees/ranged and casters depending on buff choices. Some monsters could even get buffs specially designed for them. For example now very few enemies use fire shield style abilities.(Melee nerfs are not needed at the moment. Yet it would be a buff for those melee builds that can dispell when compared to ones that can't.) Also Spell mantle/globe of invulnerability is rare these days.



Kiting.

This is last because I'm not sure if much/any changes are needed. This is atleast partially just a symptom of way things are now, like Fhauvial said. Most monsters lack reasonable countermeasures against kiting players. This makes kiting much less risky than using melee. Kiting should still be viable but atleast require more tactical choices. It should be dangerous to kite entire encounters.

Have AI recognize kiting behavior(damage dealt vs. hit attempts taken. Monster attempting to attack in melee for time period but unable to do so or something like that. Probably not easy to come up with criteria that won't also consider CC casters or others as kiters. It might not be that bad even then though.) Archer mobs could target kiter so atleast some damage is caused. Archers could also use special attacks like leg shot or some ability that stacks per hit basis so the slowdown isnt as instant and there's time to react. This should help melee monsters to land more hits on kiters. Melees could use more tactical attacks on kiters, or switch to side abilities like shadow dagger, binding shadows or other debuffs suitable for particular monster that could help them catch you. Also casters could spare their Power Words for when kiting is detected

AI changes are probably not easy at all to implement. It could also be easy to overdo this. Most archers could just gain ability on their attacks that stacks slow effect on players. Nothing huge probably. Just 1% per hit could be enough.




These are some ideas that I got that might make any sense. If you like any of them please comment them. It took a while to come up with all of these. Some of these might have results I didn't think about. Most importantly these are ways to make monster hit points and damage more reasonable while still keeping challenge and hopefully balancing different playstyles in process.

[Alfhild]

Monsters not using things that bypass parts of layered defenses.

Displaced shadow fading monks with maxed dodge and some PRR are so popular because every one of those abilities works most of the time on physical damage. Each of these should have their uses but they should not work always.

Why are there no monster archers with force arrow imbue? Players can get it at level 2 at earliest yet the most epic of archer monsters dont have it. It should be common ability on archer monsters. This ability bypasses incorporeal. Some melee monsters could come with ghost touch if it makes any sense lore wise. True seeing can be cast at level 9 but you rarely encounter it on monsters. If the organization you're fighting against has clerics or mages there should be a good chance of monsters having true seeing. This would also affect invis runs though. Not sure if it is a bad thing. .

Cutting off your nose to spite someone else's face is not a winning strategy in my opinion.

[knockcocker]

Other than the precision on shiradi, would you care to elaborate what I am getting wrong in the rest of points? This is partly because I am a bit offended (not raging, but no one likes to be told he got "everything wrong" ;) ) and partly because if I am misunderstanding a game mechanic, I would very much want to know.

I've read a few of your posts here and on the 'toaster' thread. I don't think you can be
informed as to what you are getting wrong as you seem to refuse to accept what anyone
tells you.

Shiradi casters are not 'top DPS' (unless you can reliably get Joy or even 'Mad Queen') - not by a stretch. It's
viable because it's efficient and has more manageable DC requirements meaning you can build for other things
(i.e. some defense in the form of HP and saves).

WF self healing is not 'free' or 'OP' despite you wanting it to be so. IIRC WF Melee were popular maybe once
in this game when healing curses were in vogue (didn't affect repair/reconstruct). WF (and even BF) without
their own self healing to top up would not have adequate healing amp. to just walk into all raid groups. WF
(and by extension BF) were already heavily nerf'ed when MotU was released. Besides, if you want self healing
- build for it. There are so many options now compared to how it used to be.


As several illuminated people keep posting in this thread:-
EE favours:
Hit avoidance
Evasion
High Saves
High ranged damage
Effective CC
High burst DPS (ranged/melee/spell)
Efficient use of SP

It should be no surprise that clever builds which combine the above requirements feel 'OP'
to others which don't. I'm quite happy with this situation as it means clever, skillful players
(of which I am not one) get to make a difference. Essentially, it's the content that's the
driver for this. Nerf'ing abilities without changing the content will just drive a huge wedge
betwen the devs. and a substantial proportion of the playerbase.

Any re-balancing should be about giving more options not cutting down those tall poppies
so that everyone's the same. There's already been some good examples of how to do
this in this thread.

[SirValentine]

This could be a good time to give abjuration spell focuses an increase in dispell chance. Maybe also for abjuration archmages. Wider variety of build choices would be nice. Currently no one even thinks about focusing in abjuration.



Any wonder? Heighten has been bugged for Dismissal/Banishment for years, and instead of fixing it, in U21 they finally declared the bug as WAI. Of course, the spells are close to useless in Epic anyway, due to the same issue that causes so many other issues: artificially high super-bloated monster CR/hit-dice.

[Delacroix21]

The problem of balance is only relevant in the context of epic elite, which is directly caused by the following features of epic elite (and the issue is worsening since update 15):

1. inflated monster hp (especially for orange and red named)

2. inflaged monster saves (literally untouchable)

3. inflated monster damages (renders non-ranged combat styles nonviable)

4. infated monster dc (causes players to overly focus on building up saves at the expense of all other varieties; if you dont build saves, you die instantly from cometfall/evo spells/soundburst etc.)

5. especially from update 19, the number of trashes also increase dramatically. This is very annoying combined with the above 4 points.

All of the above render almost all classes combinations powerless except only quite few ones like shiradi arcanes and furyshot monchers. This worsening situation is killing the versatility of builds (which is IMHO what most people like about this game) and the health of the game.


IMHO, the following need to be done as a matter of urgency:

1. EE monster's hp/saves/damages and spell dcs all need to be tuned down to ensure viability for a variety of other builds (not just Shiradi arcanes and furyshot monchers).


2. Shiradi casters can hit from long distance, remain totally unaffected by monster saves, and do more damage than any other casters! Also worth noting is that current mechanism allows shiradi arcanes to multi class like 4 fvs and 2 monk/2 pal etc, and that allowed shiradi arcanes to enjoy top-notch dps, best sustainability and best saves. This is too much of a privilege inaccessible to all other builds. (well, except the furyshot shot build as noted below).

My suggestion would be while making adjustment to Epic elites, it would be necessary to make all procs by shiradi magnified by say, 40% (or another ratio deemed appropriate by the dev team) of spell powers.

I believe with this change in place, shiradi arcanes will remain as a top-notch build (retain solid dps and can maintain top notch defence/sustainability), but will not be so overwhelmingly better than other casters as the current situation stands.


3. Furyshot moncher

Again current mechanism allows furyshot moncher to multi class 6 monk and 2 pal, and that allowed moncher to enjoy THE BEST dps (burst dps so far ahead of any other builds), and THE BEST DEFENSE (top notch saves, fly, dodge, high hp, stay ranged...). This is too much of a privilege inaccessible to all other builds.

I would suggest that adrenaline can only work on the first damage from manyshot/ten thousand star (if techically possible)

If the above is not possible, then maybe make adrenline not regenerating from ranged attacks.

At the very least, maybe change ten thousand star to not work on bows. (Not OP, people just don't like monks)


Even if dev changes so that adrenaline can only work on the first damage from manyshot/ten thousand star, furyshot moncher will remain as a top-notch build (retain top-notch dps but not overwhelming dps) and can maintain best defence), but will not be so vastly superior to all other builds as the current situation stands.

Most balanced ideas I have seen proposed.

[BigErkyKid]

I've read a few of your posts here and on the 'toaster' thread. I don't think you can be
informed as to what you are getting wrong as you seem to refuse to accept what anyone
tells you.

Shiradi casters are not 'top DPS' (unless you can reliably get Joy or even 'Mad Queen') - not by a stretch. It's
viable because it's efficient and has more manageable DC requirements meaning you can build for other things
(i.e. some defense in the form of HP and saves).

WF self healing is not 'free' or 'OP' despite you wanting it to be so. IIRC WF Melee were popular maybe once
in this game when healing curses were in vogue (didn't affect repair/reconstruct). WF (and even BF) without
their own self healing to top up would not have adequate healing amp. to just walk into all raid groups. WF
(and by extension BF) were already heavily nerf'ed when MotU was released. Besides, if you want self healing
- build for it. There are so many options now compared to how it used to be.


As several illuminated people keep posting in this thread:-
EE favours:
Hit avoidance
Evasion
High Saves
High ranged damage
Effective CC
High burst DPS (ranged/melee/spell)
Efficient use of SP

It should be no surprise that clever builds which combine the above requirements feel 'OP'
to others which don't. I'm quite happy with this situation as it means clever, skillful players
(of which I am not one) get to make a difference. Essentially, it's the content that's the
driver for this. Nerf'ing abilities without changing the content will just drive a huge wedge
betwen the devs. and a substantial proportion of the playerbase.

Any re-balancing should be about giving more options not cutting down those tall poppies
so that everyone's the same. There's already been some good examples of how to do
this in this thread.


First of all, and to get it out of the way, I am more than willing to accept criticism. Prove, I specifically asked for it.

In any case, shiradi is as high sustainable DPS as you can hope to be on a caster. Unless there is something I am not getting (and non of my guildies is understanding either). To me, this is not WAI since Shiradi procs become the main focus instead of whatever spell you are casting. But the greatness of this is that devs are reading this and can judge whether it is WAI or not.

Leaving aside the WF/BF debate, I gave some detailed comments on build / quests issues and I'd rather focus on that. (And not necessarily on whether you can get a Shiradi sorc to be the top dps in a party).

Let me say in advance that I do not think that the current state of the game, a primarily concern is that it focuses too much on kitting. This has been brought up too in the monster stats dev thread.


1. Ranged vs melee.
Problem: Ranged characters have the best defense through kiting and they hit very hard.
Solution: Nerf kiting.

2. Self healing.
Problem: Healers mostly redundant outside of raids, favors soloism, introduces imbalances between those who can heal very well and those who can't.
Solution: Re think self healing.

3. Shiradi and using ED out of one's natural sphere.
Problem: Shiradi provides the SUFFICIENT DPS in the game at very low sp cost and ranged.
Solution: Shiradi procs not affected by spell power.
Important: if you nerf shiradi, give nukers some chance in epic content. They cannot hit the mobs effectively now, they blow their blue bars killing trash.

4. Multiclassing
Problem: Front loaded key enhancements and feats favor deep multiclassing to be achieve very powerful and "unnatural" builds.
Solution: backload the cool enhancements and feats.
Careful to leave some for earlier on to allow for some flavor multiclass builds.

5. Evasion vs other forms of damage avoidance.
Problem: Evasion is prince in damage avoidance, only topped by kiting.
Solution: Give PRR and AC more relevance. Give melees a fortitude spell damage soaking ability (elemental absorption).

6. Epic mobs and the "tactical approach".
Problem: Epic mobs negate sophisticated gameplay. They save against tactical feats and spells and the most effective way to play them is to have top DPS.
Solution: More mobs and weaker. Allow for specialist builds to perform reasonably well.

7. Healers and group efforts.
Problem: the game is moving more to BYO everything.
Solution: Require specialists and give healers slas.

[Rautis]

Cutting off your nose to spite someone else's face is not a winning strategy in my opinion.

It depends on how much damage in general the monsters are doing after changes. Monster damage should be reduced, IMO. Part of the reason why it can't be done is because of 25% incorporeal with 25% dodge and 50% displacement means you have 28.125% chance to get hit before AC is even checked. With worst possible AC with 5% miss chance that's 73.28% chance to avoid incoming hits. And only part of this that takes real investment is the dodge.

I am not claiming all monsters should bypass incorporeality or displacement. I'm claiming they should be bypassed when it makes sense.(Which is more often than they are bypassed now.) This can make different builds shine in different encounters that cause physical damage.

And like in last post I'll repeat twice that Monster physical damage in epics is currently too high and should be reduced.

[Alfhild]

1. Ranged vs melee.
Problem: Ranged characters have the best defense through kiting and they hit very hard.
Solution: Nerf kiting.

Nerfing kiting has the potential to nerf more than the target, in this case high damage ranged builds.
I see it as a shotgun approach with collateral damage than sniping the intended target.
Everyone can kite and may need to. Not everyone kites while producing OP DPS.
Target the DPS of what you perceive to be OP, not a strategy that everyone employs at one point or another.

[Gargalarg]

Anything that works as intended I consider somewhat balenced.

That being said:
fix all exploits that could make a character more powerful then what is intended
fix bards; when encountering constructs or undead bards are useless therefore not needed. Making that class unbalanced
fix the new stunning on random gen items. 'Dazing V' means nothing and would take power away from any toon that uses stunning blow/fist
fix minor stuff:

ex: acrobat in the dark monk tree doesnt apply the 1/2/3% dodge when you take it making that enhancement less useful.

Generally i think nerfing will not solve any problems and probably create even more problems.

Fix the things that dont work correctly.

After that look and see what is underpowered and balance that to match what is more powerful because that would make all builds be MORE EFFECTIVE though as in all content especially on the highest difficulty there will always be challenge more so in higher lvl EEs.

I am currently playing a monkcher one of the most powerful builds and a still struggle with much EEs, many of which are out of the question to do by myself, thats how it should be for most builds as well.

[Zzevel]

(Breaking down this response to kill the wall of text) IMO this is EXACTLY the response everyone needs to take to heart. It's a CHOICE. Nobody ever said one way or another is right or wrong. The question shouldn't be Whats overpowered.. but WHATS UNDER POWERED. What can be added to a Paladin or Bard or Rogue to bring it to an effective level? Most people who complain about one build or another do not actually play the build, they just know they are lacking.. the question should be.. WHY ARE YOU LACKING?

People play these min/max builds because in the current state of the game, they simply WORK where others fall short.


So you do not want to make your character more powerful by taking 1 class split or 2 that is available to you and therefore if someone is doing it it is overpowered? When an option is available to everyone, that is not overpowered. Another thing is whether it becomes gamebreaking. 2 monk breaks the game? why? Nonsense. Multiclassing should always be rewarding. why should a fighter 20 be as powerful as a 16/2/2 or 12/2/2? You even go further as to say it should be more powerful? Why? Multiclassing options are there, always have been, take more planning, and open so many possibilities. Sure, you don't want to multiclass, don't, and wait for someone to join the group to do some specific task you could have performed with some extra planning investment. Capstones are already good enough, they are a freebie that actually is debatable. "Give us an incentive to stay pure". Still, why? If there is an item that goes in slot A and makes you way more effective, you can use it or not, that is your option, at the cost of using the slot, why should any other item have a similar level of power to your build. Some will be sinergetic and some won't. That's ok and fun.

Well you could argue the same with PLs. Give us an incentive to stay single live!! Single Life toons should be as effective as completionists (free that feat already, come on!), "give as a reward for not having TRd". Seems like a twisted logic but it is not. The option is there and is available to you. You cannot choose to not take the available tools/options that the game provides to be more powerful/effective/efficient and then ask for your build to be as effective as the one that optimized all.


3. Shiradi and using ED out of one's natural sphere.
Problem: Shiradi provides the SUFFICIENT DPS in the game at very low sp cost and ranged.
Solution: Shiradi procs not affected by spell power.
Important: if you nerf shiradi, give nukers some chance in epic content. They cannot hit the mobs effectively now, they blow their blue bars killing trash.

They did give nukers a chance .....by introducing shiradi, it works on many more spells than MM, and you would know that if you have ever actually played the destiny..

[UurlockYgmeov]

How about just concentrating on finishing the stuff never finished? Would give players something to do other than minmax building (ok for a second).

examples:

The Guild System
Cannith Crafting


Then we can talk about balance - maybe.

OH and adjust policy about cheats. Tell us they exist and the consequences of using them. When a new one is discovered, stop pretending the players are dumb, and that you are ostriches. Address issue head on with communication.

Worry more about server population and communication.

[Alfhild]

It depends on how much damage in general the monsters are doing after changes. Monster damage should be reduced, IMO. Part of the reason why it can't be done is because of 25% incorporeal with 25% dodge and 50% displacement means you have 28.125% chance to get hit before AC is even checked. With worst possible AC with 5% miss chance that's 73.28% chance to avoid incoming hits. And only part of this that takes real investment is the dodge.

I am not claiming all monsters should bypass incorporeality or displacement. I'm claiming they should be bypassed when it makes sense.(Which is more often than they are bypassed now.) This can make different builds shine in different encounters that cause physical damage.

And like in last post I'll repeat twice that Monster physical damage in epics is currently too high and should be reduced.
Increasing the number of mobs with Ghost Touch reduces the value of Incorp.
Reducing the value of incorp hurts Waith Necro's the most, virtually EVERY monk including non-monkcher monks, and nerfs everyone wearing an incorp item, which, at the level of play we are discussing, should be everyone.
Reducing the value of Displacement nerfs every shadowmarked elf, every arcane caster, everyone who has farmed Shroud clickies and everyone with workable UMD, which at the level of play we are discussing, is almost everyone.
A lot of people, yourself included, are saying EE mobs need a nerf.
Your suggestion is to nerf virtually every player, buff some mobs in one way, and nerf them all in others.
Were I a dev looking to pitch management a make-work project to ensure short-term job security, your idea is great.
I am not trying to be rude but just asking that you think out ALL the implications of your suggestion.

[fmalfeas]

Nerfing kiting has the potential to nerf more than the target, in this case high damage ranged builds.
I see it as a shotgun approach with collateral damage than sniping the intended target.
Everyone can kite and may need to. Not everyone kites while producing OP DPS.
Target the DPS of what you perceive to be OP, not a strategy that everyone employs at one point or another.

Agreed. Flashback, if you will, to Everquest, years and years ago. For a long time, 99% of the time, if you were losing a fight, you could run away. You'd quite possibly die anyway, as the mob chased you and beat you down, but you had a chance to survive if you ran in time, and were fast enough. Then, the devs decided that Necromancers, Druids, Rangers, and Wizards were being naughty by kiting mobs, So they made many, many, many mobs able to summon you back to them. No more kiting! Also, no more retreating. No more real tactics of any kind. All there was was tank & spank. And anyone not the tank had to make certain that they never, ever, ever got aggro, because if they did, they'd be summoned and insta-killed.

I do not want to see that implemented in DDO. It is not the answer. It's a cheap copout that makes the game less fun.

Adjust mob stats so that you don't 'need' to be one of the uberbuilds to be 'viable'. See how the playerbase reacts. Odds are, a lot of those uberbuilds will change. Why? Because other than the fact that they win, they're pretty boring. They're one or two trick ponies, without any real ability to adapt or grow. Part of the reason I won't make one, because I know that I'd be bored to death in no time. And part of why I have lots of alts, and all of them are prone to reincarnation. Need some difference now and then.

Even my druid not only has multiple gearsets for his level range, but as he stands right now, he /carries/ the gear to viably change up on the fly. It makes him more fun, more versatile.

[BigErkyKid]

Nerfing kiting has the potential to nerf more than the target, in this case high damage ranged builds.
I see it as a shotgun approach with collateral damage than sniping the intended target.
Everyone can kite and may need to. Not everyone kites while producing OP DPS.
Target the DPS of what you perceive to be OP, not a strategy that everyone employs at one point or another.

There are ways of doing it "right". I also kite with my melees, I consider it a smart strategy to avoid getting hit by many enemies at the same time.

The problem is when someone can backpedal and backjump-shoot at a speed such that NO enemy is capable of reaching him/her in melee. My suggestion, specifically:

1. Increasing nerf curve. A possible way to nerf kitting is by introducing a increasing curve nerf. That is, nerf more those that are high up and less the ones that are currently alright. Probably the last thing a tank needs now is reduced speed.

2. Remove attack/cast -jump exploit. It should still slow you down.

Special mention: Careful with melee mobs not using ranged or being very weak at ranged attacks.

The objective of both changes being that a ranged should not be able to keep dealing damage while running away at a speed that makes him untouchable by melees. That is, you could run away from the mobs, throw a couple of arrows or spells and repeat. But NOT back-jump cast, back-jump shoot continuously. I believe people would do it far less often if the latter was removed.

[Delacroix21]

Here is a simple group of changes to make to provide balance=

1. Monsters in EE (and in level 28 challenges) need reduced to-hit, damage, saves, SR, Spell Pen, and HP. (must be done FIRST)

2. Adrenaline still works with bows but does not regain charges with ranged (burst from manyshot, but forced to use meele to get it up)

3. Shiradi procs use 50% of caster spell power (less damage, but the build is still viable)

4. Masters Blitz stacks to 10, but does half the damage increase it does now.


Those are the only "balance" issues we face right now. Pure classes not being as strong as some multiclass combinations or weak EDs and PrEs are a separate topic.

[Fhauvial]

Increasing the number of mobs with Ghost Touch reduces the value of Incorp.


It also kills the Shadowdancer destiny for Rogues. Shadow Form is Tier 6, no less.

[Alfhild]

2. Remove attack/cast -jump exploit. It should still slow you down.

Without addressing whether jump-casting is exploiting, what you are advocating is an adjustment which affects EVERY level of caster play including heroic where Bladebarrier/Firewall dropping casters employ this technique ritually and have been doing it for years.

[Delacroix21]

Here is a simple group of changes to make to provide balance=

1. Monsters in EE (and in level 28 challenges) need reduced to-hit (will buff AC tanks), damage, saves, SR, Spell Pen, and HP. (must be done FIRST)

2. Adrenaline still works with bows but does not regain charges with ranged (burst from manyshot, but forced to use meele to get it up)

3. Shiradi procs use 50% of caster spell power (less damage, but the build is still viable)

4. Masters Blitz stacks to 10, but does half the damage increase it does now.


Those are the only "balance" issues we face right now. Pure classes not being as strong as some multiclass combinations or weak EDs and PrEs are a separate topic.


Requoted for truth. People are going way overboard with complaints and cries for nerfs. Incorporiality is fine, kiting is fine (go play WoW or something), self healing is fine,a dn evasion is fine. Self healing is required (along with kiting) as clerics couldnt even hit their heal buttons fast enough to save you if you are meeleing in EE. Evasion is less an issue if we tone down monster spells and give passive (not blocking elemental absrob to shields). If monsters are surviveable toe to toe (with a healer) kiting will be discouraged as its annoying (like divines blade barrier kiting on heroic normal or hard).

[BigErkyKid]

Without addressing whether jump-casting is exploiting, what you are advocating is an adjustment which affects EVERY level of caster play including heroic where Bladebarrier/Firewall dropping casters employ this technique ritually and have been doing it for years.

I don't agree. Once thing is to drop a barrier and to run back and forth through it and the other is to pew pew while you back jump.

Kitting through FW and BB becomes less and less effective as you move to higher levels. I would say it is almost never used in epics. At least that I have seen.

[knockcocker]

In any case, shiradi is as high sustainable DPS as you can hope to be on a caster. Unless there is something I am not getting (and non of my guildies is understanding either). To me, this is not WAI since Shiradi procs become the main focus instead of whatever spell you are casting. But the greatness of this is that devs are reading this and can judge whether it is WAI or not.


You're changing tack a little now. You're now talking about a sustainable DPS build - not top DPS. That's a different recepticle of
piscine lifeforms IMO. If you're now talking about sustainable DPS then I'm more inclined to agree with you. However, who is to
say this is not WAI. This is what the majority of the waaaa waaaa brigade continually fail to appreciate; Shiradi works because
it's efficient, doesn't need high DC and has much less reliance on caster level (meaning you can easily splash 4 FVS/2 Mon on your
Sorc build). It also has far less steep gear requirements (due to DC) and is thus accessible to a broader swathe of the player
base. A first life DI is going to suck in EE but he might have a chance if Shiradi. In other words it's effective without being too
costly.



2. Self healing.
Problem: Healers mostly redundant outside of raids, favors soloism, introduces imbalances between those who can heal very well and those who can't.
Solution: Re think self healing.


Right, so are you someone who thinks this should be a 'grouping' game only?
I see you don't have a 'thing' for FVS/Cleric etc. - they can self heal really well - if fleshy. I think fleshy self
healing should be nerf'ed - it's just too powerful. See how that works?

From the rest of your 'points' it seems like your someone who strongly favours pure classed
roles within a balanced party. You seem to have a real issue with multiclassing and soloing.
In fact, it's a diatribe into making the game more rigid and removing the ability to effectively
multiclass - if there's no benefit, people wouldn't do it.

The *only* thing this game has going for it over the games that it's competing with is that
is has the most flexible character creation and enhancement system going. It seems to
me that removing that and reverting the game to a state where forced grouping is required to
get anything done would just result in the lights being switched off sooner.

Let's buff 'weak' ED and class abilities - choice is good.

[Alfhild]

Kitting through FW and BB becomes less and less effective as you move to higher levels. I would say it is almost never used in epics. At least that I have seen.
Which is why I specifically mentioned heroic play. Adjusting jump-casting affects heroic play. Whether we are talking about new players or TRers, you suggestion will affect them negatively and their reaction will be negative. Given that the incoming adjustement are going to cause dissatisfaction regardless, spreading that dissatisfaction beyond the intended target is not a very good idea in my opinion.
Again if kiting OP DPS'ers are the problem, target the OP DPS and target the key source of the OP DPS only, which tends to be the synergy between abilities and not the actual abilities themselves.

[fool101]

I don't think player character abilities should be changed alot. Some epic abilities are way stronger than others, however. Balancing should come from clever changes to monsters. With changes like this both monster damage and hp could be lowered and game could still offer challenge. I will cover some areas of gameplay that I think have made the metagame what it is today.



Monsters not using things that bypass parts of layered defenses.

Displaced shadow fading monks with maxed dodge and some PRR are so popular because every one of those abilities works most of the time on physical damage. Each of these should have their uses but they should not work always.

Why are there no monster archers with force arrow imbue? Players can get it at level 2 at earliest yet the most epic of archer monsters dont have it. It should be common ability on archer monsters. This ability bypasses incorporeal. Some melee monsters could come with ghost touch if it makes any sense lore wise. True seeing can be cast at level 9 but you rarely encounter it on monsters. If the organization you're fighting against has clerics or mages there should be a good chance of monsters having true seeing. This would also affect invis runs though. Not sure if it is a bad thing. It's ok that PRR always works. Problem is that you can get enough PRR from enhancements, items and feats that you get past optimal investment point making extra PRR from armor rather meaningless. There could be adjustments to PRR mechanic to make armor count more. One option is to adjust the 0.65 in PRR formula (http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_resistance_rating) up or down depending on armor worn. So for different armors same PRR yields different results. There are also some abilities that bypass a portion of dodge rating. Certain monster types could use these.



Epic ward.

This ability simply ruins some playstyles that are viable in heroics. Rogue with crippling strike. Ravager with Mutilate and Cruel cut. Cloudkill using archmage. Bard with Suggestion. Even some Epic Destiny abilities suck when rats, wolves, bears, spiders and other epic monsters are immune or highly resistant to abilities you might have even specialized in.

Give dispells to hit/AC treatment. Replace epic ward with buffs or make it dispellable. Make different 'epic wards' suitable for different monster types. Normal animals or vermin should not gain any kind of ward while strong casters could have very strong magical protections. Melees could come with package that improves their performance(true seeing, haste, blur, freedom of movement, death ward, immunity to mind spells, abilities from old epic ward etc). All these should be dispellable. Most casters and potential UMD using monsters should come with night shield or shield. It is level 1 spell afterall Giving dispell ability to some classes could also buff them if dispell is useful. Paladin Holy Sword could become more like Holy Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holyAvenger) as self only weapon buff with dispell attempt on crit or so besides other benefits. Barbarian Occult Slayer could also gain dispell attempt ability at tier 5 or so. This could be a good time to give abjuration spell focuses an increase in dispell chance. Maybe also for abjuration archmages. Wider variety of build choices would be nice. Currently no one even thinks about focusing in abjuration.

Cost of getting a mob dispelled would play a big role in caster balance and should be adjusted carefully. Buffs on monsters can hurt both melees/ranged and casters depending on buff choices. Some monsters could even get buffs specially designed for them. For example now very few enemies use fire shield style abilities.(Melee nerfs are not needed at the moment. Yet it would be a buff for those melee builds that can dispell when compared to ones that can't.) Also Spell mantle/globe of invulnerability is rare these days.



Kiting.

This is last because I'm not sure if much/any changes are needed. This is atleast partially just a symptom of way things are now, like Fhauvial said. Most monsters lack reasonable countermeasures against kiting players. This makes kiting much less risky than using melee. Kiting should still be viable but atleast require more tactical choices. It should be dangerous to kite entire encounters.

Have AI recognize kiting behavior(damage dealt vs. hit attempts taken. Monster attempting to attack in melee for time period but unable to do so or something like that. Probably not easy to come up with criteria that won't also consider CC casters or others as kiters. It might not be that bad even then though.) Archer mobs could target kiter so atleast some damage is caused. Archers could also use special attacks like leg shot or some ability that stacks per hit basis so the slowdown isnt as instant and there's time to react. This should help melee monsters to land more hits on kiters. Melees could use more tactical attacks on kiters, or switch to side abilities like shadow dagger, binding shadows or other debuffs suitable for particular monster that could help them catch you. Also casters could spare their Power Words for when kiting is detected

AI changes are probably not easy at all to implement. It could also be easy to overdo this. Most archers could just gain ability on their attacks that stacks slow effect on players. Nothing huge probably. Just 1% per hit could be enough.




These are some ideas that I got that might make any sense. If you like any of them please comment them. It took a while to come up with all of these. Some of these might have results I didn't think about. Most importantly these are ways to make monster hit points and damage more reasonable while still keeping challenge and hopefully balancing different playstyles in process.

on kiting:

I just did elite Schemes of the Enemy the other day (for the boots). There is that room with 4 or 5 artificers. I was in with a guildmate and between them, they were spamming that electricity spell. We couldn't move for more than 1-2 secs at a time (stunned for 5-10 secs at a time). My save was 35 and they were casting it no-fail on me. I tried kiting but the spell tracks remarkably well..They CAN be easily instakilled, but neither of us had that ability.

I"m not complaining, just pointing out that there are some mechanics in the game that prevent kiting...Too bad this is not located in newer content where I'm sure it would be effective. Plus, these mobs did have weak saves once your able to move.....hint hint

[napkin007]

If you ae looking for OP unbalanced classes then you might want to start with the whopper of all that is unbalanced. the shardi caster mm build. Im going to get alot of grief for this post im sure but It needs to be addresed. Lolz i can go into pretty much any EE quest from EE tor to EE lines of supply up to and including quest like EE brothers forge and EE study in the sabel and with pretty much hitting 8 keys solo them in much less time than 90% of the gamers out there in full groups. There are many different shardi caster mm builds out there some great some not so great but in general the shardi caster mm build is way OP and completly unbalances the game.

[Silkenwise]

THIS.

Someone also mentioned wizards needing a buff - I wont agree here. Casual wizard players may need a buff but maxed out wizard in one of the most powerful character in DDO anbd can instantkill 95% of mobs in quest before you get to them close enough to hit them :P

My main toon is a pure palemaster DC insta-killer. That build does ONE thing, instant death spells to trash mobs. Secondary to that is self-regenerating and crowd control during boss fights. That's IT. No heavy boss DPS, no significant contributions from your pet, it's instant death or bust.

The problem with that, is the design of the high level monsters themselves.

Even with a completely maxxed DC caster, on EH you end up level-draining half your limited reserve of mana away just to stick the instakills, and on EE you are COMPLETELY USELESS. Ditto for places like Gianthold, where all the monsters have Deathward. Can't crowd control them, can't scratch their HP with damage spells, and your one specialty is completely blocked by a single UNDISPELLABLE uber-resistance.

EE mobs have disgustingly high HP, and ludicrous saves, so you cannot use damaging spells to make a dent in them, cannot drain them enough to stick an autokill and cannot charm, web, or CC them at all. They hit so hard your 70+Hp per second regeneration is nothing to them, and you end up doing nothing for a group but eating up rezzes. Any trash mob over CR 45 will kill you, and anything under CR45 dies instantly. It sucks.

[Silkenwise]

So, i hadn't played a level 1 character from scratch for quite a while. I made a dummy account to double dip the collector cards this month and BOY did I find a badly broken part of the game.

I made a level 1 wizard, cause that's how I like to roll.
Archmage invisibility is the best use of your first Action Point in the history of ever, and 1st level Summon Monster + Necro Pet = lay-z-boy anna beer time. So, i'm thinking about ways to optimize the lethargy of this build (dwarf wizard: cast spells, drink beer while your minions do the work) and I pick up a hireling. Level 1 Warforged Barbarian, 6 gold pieces.

Now my summon hits for 2-8 damage a bite (i go with the dog, fits the theme) and the skeleton pet hits for around 12-14 a swing. That's fine, the dog seems comparable to the trash mobs and the pet kills pretty much everything after a while.
This hireling, the one that cost me a whopping 6 pieces of Gold, hits for 30-40+ damage PER SWING. At FIRST level!


With the Magister ED at level 4 (so a 24th level character) and completely maxxed Summon augments, you can summon a Lich. You'd think "Wow, cool! A Lich! That's like one of the iconic power monsters in all of Dungeons and Dragons. Sure it costs a ton of otherwise better-spent points to get that, but I wanna see what he does!"

Here's what he does: Casts fireball occasionally, shambles around, spams magic missile.

His missiles hit for around 12-15 a pop.

Remember that Level 1 Hireling Barbarian, that cost nothing more than a paltry 6 gold (no Xp necessary, no feats skills or enhancements, nada)
He hits for MORE DAMAGE than a CR:20 Lich summoned by a level 24 Epic Necromancer.


Your game is broken. Fix it.

[Rautis]

Increasing the number of mobs with Ghost Touch reduces the value of Incorp.
Reducing the value of incorp hurts Waith Necro's the most, virtually EVERY monk including non-monkcher monks, and nerfs everyone wearing an incorp item, which, at the level of play we are discussing, should be everyone.
Reducing the value of Displacement nerfs every shadowmarked elf, every arcane caster, everyone who has farmed Shroud clickies and everyone with workable UMD, which at the level of play we are discussing, is almost everyone.
A lot of people, yourself included, are saying EE mobs need a nerf.
Your suggestion is to nerf virtually every player, buff some mobs in one way, and nerf them all in others.
Were I a dev looking to pitch management a make-work project to ensure short-term job security, your idea is great.
I am not trying to be rude but just asking that you think out ALL the implications of your suggestion.

I did consider most of the results. I have played shadowmarked elf paladin, different wizards and some monks too. I actually just got shadow form on my rogue. How much of your received damage comes from archer monsters? It would be a nerf yes, but I think I would still play my incorporeal characters succesfully. I think of it more like monster archer buff.(as ghost touch makes sense for very few melee monsters lore wise.) Now they rarely are the most fearsome part of an encounter for anyone.

Displacement is more important issue as anyone can get it from a source or another. Making the spell self only was a huge nerf to my bard playstyle.(I liked displacing the melees. I actually made the shadowmark paladin so I could keep doing so before enhancement pass.) And it was also a huge nerf to classes that have hard time getting their UMD up as partymembers no longer can cast it on them. Now there's a huge difference in damage mitigation between people who can effortlessly keep displacement running for every encounter and those who can't. Strangely enough it usually favors classes who aren't stereotypically considered frontline melees.

I could see more(again, not the rats or anything else with animal level int for sure) monsters having true seeing as dispellable buff. So they start the fight with ability to hit through displacement but stop doing that if they get dispelled. Displacement is afterall just level 3 spell. It is funny how important it is for those few epic melees at the moment. Ofcourse, meleeing should be viable option even if more mobs had true seeing.

[TheDr0wRanger]

On Sorcerers: I was playing Haunted Halls with a FVS guildmate last night, and we were comparing damage, noting that my pure 20 fire savant far outclasses FVS light spell dps. It turned into something of a debate about potential and the necessity for that potential at endgame.

Anyway, I was coming to a conclusion, one that I''d like to A. Verify and B. Posit possible solutions for

1. I think Sorcs DPS is not out of the realm of reason considering their role and abilities, when E-burst is taken out of the picture. Dragon Breath is sweet, but at a long cooldown and 5/rest they don't drive the damage. I find that I can reasonably hope to get almost all of the kills in a party if I rely solely on E-burst with some fireballs to clean up the stragglers. I never run out of SP if I take any interest in not doing so. I think E-burst is OP and Sorcs are poorly equipped outside of that.

2. I think Sorcs need to be semi-buffed, that is given new abilities with good synergy to their goals, rather than more of the exact same bonus(spellpower and caster levels/crit chance). Immolation(the burning affect over time) is great flavor and lots of fun, Heat Death is great too. Cheap fire Guard sucks and should be level 1 if it exists and all, replace it with a percentage resist to fire or something. Basically don't add more dps, add more flavor and synergy driven class bonuses that make the character rounded. This precedes my next, inevitably unpopular suggestion...

3. Rework draconic. Tier 2 get a PRR bonus stance that doesn't stack with armor or monk stances(15 or so would mean my guy can hit 15 elemental+30bracers+15 ED=60 prr or approx 25-29% reduction). If thats too much try a static draconic DR 20/-. Double the cooldown on E-burst, or triple it and increase the damage. It is supposed to be a blast of unholy proportions, if its going to wipe the board and crit for upwards of 20k(it does) then it should not be both cheap and spammable. If you wanted to double the damage and give say...5-10 per rest, I'd be impressed as well. Shorten the timer on dragon wings, reduce/eliminate the damage and increase the trip dc. The goal is utility instead of more damage. Increase available Evo dcs, along with Conj dcs. Let me land ALL things if I spec for it, its reasonable given I only do the one thing.
Drop Fearsome Invuln and replace it with a temporary draconic form(Assume Draconic Form), turn into a chromatic dragon like the FoT disciples, halve the cooldown again on all draconic abilites(Roar, Wings, Breath) add 1-2 breaths back when you trigger the ability, 3d12+ CHA mod damage per melee attack with some sort of damage based on your element, spell cooldown increased and another 20 someodd DR for a minute.
Make sorcs more the masters of an element and less vehicles for Energy Burst.

All of the above coupled with some adjustments to spell damage and cost would be my suggestions to properly rebalance sorcerers. Make them able to achieve more dps per spellbar but less per second, make them able to contribute to CC in limited ways and then reduce the availability of silly huge numbers.

Pipe Dream interlude: I always dreamed of a percentage heal from ones element, such that 25% or whatever of fire damage heals my savant. Incoming damage will be reduced to 3/4s of its effect(200 damage + 50 heal = 150 damage) and I can self-cast my SLAs to give myself some health. I thought of this when comparing to Necros because I realized pure elemental immunity is impossible given the number of traps, lava pits and raid bosses that immunity would completely break. But I do think having even a limited number of spells(fire shield, fire wall, the con-DC SLA from the tree) work to my benefit would be fun, flavorful, make sense(elementals DO heal from their element) and again do something other than just pile more damage on.

P.S. If you REALLY want to increase the Coolness of sorcs, try adding a caster PrE that isn't a Savant. We have 1 savant in 4 colors, and one PrE that I've yet to see a pure Sorc do ANYTHING but steal scrolls and the DR bubble from. Really, a Psionic Cha driven CC build with untyped damage(illithid heritage?) or Acolyte Abjuration/Transmutation character with demon damage resistances and some melee interaction would play well with both of the existing trees, offer opportunity to expand the horizons of sorc beyond elemental dps that overpowers everything and let sorcs diversify. Don't call Eldritch the last one, add something caster-friendly and make it totally not a DPS. If its good you'll see good things come.

[Alfhild]

I did consider most of the results. I have played shadowmarked elf paladin, different wizards and some monks too. I actually just got shadow form on my rogue. How much of your received damage comes from archer monsters? It would be a nerf yes, but I think I would still play my incorporeal characters succesfully. I think of it more like monster archer buff.(as ghost touch makes sense for very few melee monsters lore wise.) Now they rarely are the most fearsome part of an encounter for anyone.

Displacement is more important issue as anyone can get it from a source or another. Making the spell self only was a huge nerf to my bard playstyle.(I liked displacing the melees. I actually made the shadowmark paladin so I could keep doing so before enhancement pass.) And it was also a huge nerf to classes that have hard time getting their UMD up as partymembers no longer can cast it on them. Now there's a huge difference in damage mitigation between people who can effortlessly keep displacement running for every encounter and those who can't. Strangely enough it usually favors classes who aren't stereotypically considered frontline melees.

I could see more(again, not the rats or anything else with animal level int for sure) monsters having true seeing as dispellable buff. So they start the fight with ability to hit through displacement but stop doing that if they get dispelled. Displacement is afterall just level 3 spell. It is funny how important it is for those few epic melees at the moment. Ofcourse, meleeing should be viable option even if more mobs had true seeing.
If we assume Elite Mobs need a "nerf", your suggestion requires designing and implementing that blanket nerf, buffing some mobs, and then implementing another nerf to balance the buff you gave them.
I am not saying you ideas are somehow intrinsically without value, I am saying they are far more extra work than I believe the Devs are willing to give to the matter.
As for your ideas of dispelling become an essential tool of encounter mechanics, it is an interesting idea, but given the current game mechanics and the current player atmosphere, are people going to agree to making Monkchers even more OP? (Think Manyshotted Shattermantle followed by Manyshotted Dispelling Shot)

[Holleyz]

Hi,

You should have noticed by now that there are some major differences between the 3.5 ruleset and DDO.

In DDO, you are not required to choose between melee and ranged specialisation as a ranger they same way you are in some versions of the PnP rules. That is why I and many others here have been telling you that the ranger is not a ranged specialist in this game.

Referring to a set of rules for a different game does not prove your point at all. DDO is based upon 3.5E, but at this point of its evolution it is also a very different thing from the original ruleset in many ways.

If you put some effort into learning the game you are playing now, rather than arguing how it is or should be more like another, different game, it will help you to become a better player, I promise.

I don't think it can be explained any more clearly than that. You can continue sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to believe it, but that won't make you any less wrong.

Thanks, and good luck.

I'm so hurt right now I'm literally in tears, maybe because I'm female Idk. All this time I thought I was playing Dungeons & Dragons. So what have I been playing? What is this game? Someone please tell me I'm so lost.

[BigErkyKid]

Which is why I specifically mentioned heroic play. Adjusting jump-casting affects heroic play. Whether we are talking about new players or TRers, you suggestion will affect them negatively and their reaction will be negative. Given that the incoming adjustement are going to cause dissatisfaction regardless, spreading that dissatisfaction beyond the intended target is not a very good idea in my opinion.
Again if kiting OP DPS'ers are the problem, target the OP DPS and target the key source of the OP DPS only, which tends to be the synergy between abilities and not the actual abilities themselves.

Jump casting does not affect BB and FW kiting. You can cast it and be slowed down a bit and then kite through it, or cast it in advance and move to it. I don't think that my suggestion has any implications for heroic content in that sense.

Jump casting aka as pew pew jumping and phew phew shooting are the actions I would suggest to target with the nerf I sketched. Again, this has no implications for BB and FW kitting.

[BigErkyKid]

You're changing tack a little now. You're now talking about a sustainable DPS build - not top DPS. That's a different recepticle of
piscine lifeforms IMO. If you're now talking about sustainable DPS then I'm more inclined to agree with you. However, who is to
say this is not WAI. This is what the majority of the waaaa waaaa brigade continually fail to appreciate; Shiradi works because
it's efficient, doesn't need high DC and has much less reliance on caster level (meaning you can easily splash 4 FVS/2 Mon on your
Sorc build). It also has far less steep gear requirements (due to DC) and is thus accessible to a broader swathe of the player
base. A first life DI is going to suck in EE but he might have a chance if Shiradi. In other words it's effective without being too
costly.



Right, so are you someone who thinks this should be a 'grouping' game only?
I see you don't have a 'thing' for FVS/Cleric etc. - they can self heal really well - if fleshy. I think fleshy self
healing should be nerf'ed - it's just too powerful. See how that works?

From the rest of your 'points' it seems like your someone who strongly favours pure classed
roles within a balanced party. You seem to have a real issue with multiclassing and soloing.
In fact, it's a diatribe into making the game more rigid and removing the ability to effectively
multiclass - if there's no benefit, people wouldn't do it.

The *only* thing this game has going for it over the games that it's competing with is that
is has the most flexible character creation and enhancement system going. It seems to
me that removing that and reverting the game to a state where forced grouping is required to
get anything done would just result in the lights being switched off sooner.

Let's buff 'weak' ED and class abilities - choice is good.

I agree that character tuning is a main appeal of DDO. However, multiclassing is now not a preference but a must. I disagree with that.

Also, yes I would favor group play. I think it is more interesting and that's the reason why I come to play DDO anyway.

Should everyone be forced to group? I don't think so. But the concern now is that even in groups there is little to no cooperation right now. I like it better when party members need each other to create a more powerful party. That thing about the sum of the parts being greater than...

Right now, soloism happens in groups. The greatest achievements people post on forums are being able to solo the toughest quests and raids. I don't like the direction the game is taking in this sense.

It is strictly a matter of preference, not balance. Kitting, on the other hand, is for me overwhelmingly a matter of balance.


PS - On the shiradi matter. I was always a DC caster or a tactical melee. Direction of the game has been attacking these sort of builds more than pure raw damage. I dislike that. There should be room for both.

So, now I have my spam machine shiradi BF sorc, 14,4,2. He has literally no gear, only random loot. He even had some slots empty. But he was a significant contributor to all the quests I played (yes, in groups) and now it comes to my mind a particular fight in VON5 elite where 4 people died around me in a locked room and I pulled the fight while having around 500 SP left in my bar when I began.

[avepepix]

The mayor problem here its the multiclass system.
Because theres no restriction, you can make anything you like.

DDO, take the D&D system, but a multiclass has no penalty, so a multiclass can be better than a pure class.
We can argue that this go with that or not, like ex. boulder toss.

So we have to make a simple question, or the devs or someone has the answer. What its the goal? multiclass or pure? Who has "the pasta" a pure its a better fighter than a multiclass? 20 fighter lvl its better defender than a 10 figher/10 paladin?
Because its a lot of diference in this answer. Rather a simple question will stop almost all of this discusion. If a devs says "the goal for end game its a nice multiclass" all of us (me included) will respawn my pure characters and fix it.

You still can play whatever you like, but with the aknowledge of whats the goal in the endgame.



And please, dont say the bard tree its fine. The tree of the warchanter its awfull, Gathering Cold, really?? How many quest are there that someone cast cold to you 50% 60%?
Transform that in Gathering Magic, and we can start talking

[bls904c2]

So we have to make a simple question, or the devs or someone has the answer. What its the goal? multiclass or pure? Who has "the pasta" a pure its a better fighter than a multiclass? 20 fighter lvl its better defender than a 10 figher/10 paladin?
Because its a lot of diference in this answer. Rather a simple question will stop almost all of this discusion. If a devs says "the goal for end game its a nice multiclass" all of us (me included) will respawn my pure characters and fix it.

You still can play whatever you like, but with the aknowledge of whats the goal in the endgame.

nice

[Impaqt]

the Key to achieving some resemblance of character balance lies in providing real tangible benefits to being a pure class build.

Currently, Splashing monks and Paladin create comparatively overpowered characters because staying pure has little benefit.

[Kaytis]

Solution: Nerf kiting.

* Huge drop in backpedalling speed and higher drop in speed from casting / attacking.

* Nerf jump-cast, jump-shoot. It should slow you down as much as doing it while NOT jumping.


Whatever else you do, don't do this. If DDO is known for anything it is the fantastic combat physics. To deliberately knee-cap yourselves by removing any of the existing dynamism of combat would be foolish in the extreme. Further, doing this would not even address your goal of nerfing high-powered toons. This would hurt everyone across the board. Pleeeease don't do this.

The rest of that particular post is also generally bad, but this one idea is terribad.

[Cardtrick]

Whatever else you do, don't do this. If DDO is known for anything it is the fantastic combat physics. To deliberately knee-cap yourselves by removing any of the existing dynamism of combat would be foolish in the extreme. Further, doing this would not even address your goal of nerfing high-powered toons. This would hurt everyone across the board. Pleeeease don't do this.

The rest of that particular post is also generally bad, but this one idea is terribad.

100% agreed. Removing any element of the active combat would be a terrible mistake.

If anything, I'd like to add more active combat elements that melees could use (active dodge with a temporary invulnerability component or something), although obviously that's a topic best left for future discussions.

[Impaqt]

Whatever else you do, don't do this. If DDO is known for anything it is the fantastic combat physics. To deliberately knee-cap yourselves by removing any of the existing dynamism of combat would be foolish in the extreme. Further, doing this would not even address your goal of nerfing high-powered toons. This would hurt everyone across the board. Pleeeease don't do this.

The rest of that particular post is also generally bad, but this one idea is terribad.

Fantastic combat physics?

So your telling me you can run backwards at the same rate as you can run forwards? with the same motor control?

the silly backpedal speed in DDO is one of the biggest flaws in their game engine imo....

THey should throw a Balance check every 6 seconds. Fail and fall on your ass...

and no. I'm not generally opposed to Caster Kiters. I often kite through blade barriers as well as firewalls.

Of course, if they do something like that I really want to see them fix/remove the silly run through water slowdown and the step up animation for very short changes in elevation.

[Delacroix21]

Multiclassing and the combat system are the BEST features of ddo, and the only reason it has a niche of players.


Honestly capstones are rather powerfull, but even if you buffed them more you would probably still have all the multiclass vs pure whining. I saw whining because you choose to build the character you play, your not forced to be pure or anything of the sort. Why does it bother certain people that splashing makes powerfull toons, it always has in dnd.


As far as suggesting nerfs to kiting, i will tell you this now. If you screw with ddo combat players will leave and NEVER come back. This combat feels like an action game, NO mmo has that! Not even ESO! As others have said, kiting is only necessary due to monster damage being to high in EE, people dont kite in EH much.



Stay on topic people! The issue of balance lie only really with shiradi, blitz, and fury. Those are an easy fix:
1. Nerf EE monster to hit (buff ac tanks), damage, saves, and spell penetration (as SR is made useless).
2. Reduce shiradi procs to 50 percent of your spell power.
3. Allow adrenaline to work with bows, but not manyshot (fury ranged is balanced, the burst is not)
4. Keep masters blitz and 10 stacks, cut damage bonus in half

Buffs to other EDs and PrEs if you have time.

[Delacroix21]

BTW get rid of manyshot disabling doubleshot for X seconds, its made doubleshot useless. It will also buff pure rangers for all the pure classes. 20% doubleshot is a HUGE bonus if doubleshot is un nerfed.


It should just disable doubleshot for the duration of manyshot and 10k stars. Current inplementation you are almost always locked out of doubleshot so its preety useless

[Nédime]

I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.


I have to point out that Korthos is not really EE.

[avepepix]

Multiclassing and the combat system are the BEST features of ddo, and the only reason it has a niche of players.

The multiclass system its funy, you can multiclass with no restriction, so you can open your mind to a bast world of combination.
But that dont answer my question. 20 lvl fighter defender, its better or worst than a 10 pala/10 fighter?

Yeah some capstone are powerfull, others no. And you realice that when you encounter a toon half/half or worse 10/8/2 thats way better than you in your supoused job. So why the effort to go pure?

[Delacroix21]

So why the effort to go pure?

Thats just it, staying pure doesnt require any effort or planning. Multiclassing does.

[Ancient]

I have to point out that Korthos is not really EE.
EE Von3 Solo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57V8sNK_ntA&feature=youtu.be)

I've done it in harder content too, that is just what I have a video of.

[BigErkyKid]

Fantastic combat physics?

So your telling me you can run backwards at the same rate as you can run forwards? with the same motor control?

the silly backpedal speed in DDO is one of the biggest flaws in their game engine imo....

They should throw a Balance check every 6 seconds. Fail and fall on your ass...

and no. I'm not generally opposed to Caster Kiters. I often kite through blade barriers as well as firewalls.

Of course, if they do something like that I really want to see them fix/remove the silly run through water slowdown and the step up animation for very short changes in elevation.

Kiting through BB and FW is not due to being able to cast jump. So nothing with that. True, the game has very nice physics, you can interact with the environment a lot and there are few invisible barriers: it seems feasible, then it can be done. Very good. What does this have to do with pew pew and phew phew kitting?

Regarding multiclassing. Not everyone enjoys being a sorcerer pally or a sorcerer monk or whatever other splash. Some people prefer to play pure classes. For a variety of reasons. For one, some people prefer to play characters that would make sense given some understanding of the lore surrounding DnD, and not necessarily whatever makes them more powerful. And no, they don't want to be the last monkey will doing that. This is something (people not wanting to feel underpowered) specially mentioned by the developer in his initial post.

In DnD, at least when I played as a teenager, there were reasons why people didn't multiclass. Explicit penalties AND increasing returns to specialization. DDO has accepted many of the restrictions and players have played by the rules (where are the barbarian pally monks?). So I don't think it is being "********" or other of the nice things people call those of my opinion to ask for some love for pure classes.

Of course, at the end of the day this is a matter of taste.

[Ancient]

Whatever else you do, don't do this. If DDO is known for anything it is the fantastic combat physics. To deliberately knee-cap yourselves by removing any of the existing dynamism of combat would be foolish in the extreme. Further, doing this would not even address your goal of nerfing high-powered toons. This would hurt everyone across the board. Pleeeease don't do this.

The rest of that particular post is also generally bad, but this one idea is terribad.

Agreed, 100%

There are some ideas which are just bad, and then there are the exceptionally bad ones that are something special.

[Rautis]

If we assume Elite Mobs need a "nerf", your suggestion requires designing and implementing that blanket nerf, buffing some mobs, and then implementing another nerf to balance the buff you gave them.
I am not saying you ideas are somehow intrinsically without value, I am saying they are far more extra work than I believe the Devs are willing to give to the matter.

Yes. Many of the suggestions I made might require more work than devs are willing to invest. I could see archer AI users gaining force arrow imbue at higher levels be rather doable. Or even just adding it to new monsters designed for future content. Anything works. Idea behind this is that it makes different characters shine in different content. Lots of archers? let the fighter with PRR get their aggro while your shadow fade guy deals with the melees.


I've seen many people request changing the bags of hp that hit too hard to melee into something less boring. So I could see something change in that aspect of game. There's a danger of monster just becoming too easy in every aspect and that shouldn't be what happens. Game should be fun to play.


As for your ideas of dispelling become an essential tool of encounter mechanics, it is an interesting idea, but given the current game mechanics and the current player atmosphere, are people going to agree to making Monkchers even more OP? (Think Manyshotted Shattermantle followed by Manyshotted Dispelling Shot)

No_Dice has shown some interest in dispelling in here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/437467-Let-s-Talk-About-Monster-Stats!?p=5276071#post5276071). Yea, Dispelling shot should also be made caster level(ranger, except if elf AA where it could maybe be character level since they're not bladeforged) dispell check and cooldown should be extended based on ability to use it on several mobs with improved precise shot. Also, considering that it is the only dispelling ability that works(unless bugged, haven't tried) on anything epic I'd consider it already rather OP when compared to other dispell options.

[Delacroix21]

Staying pure will be more incentivised by racial PrEs, but multiclassing should always be powerfull as its just as easy to create a totally gimp toon multiclassing.

[avepepix]

Thats just it, staying pure doesnt require any effort or planning. Multiclassing does.

Pure still requires planning, and its still its an effort. 20 lvls fighter vs 10 monk/8 fighter/2 rouge. Who is better tank?

Let me put this in another way. Planning a multiclass vs leveling a pure. whats harder?

[Impaqt]

Kiting through BB and FW is not due to being able to cast jump. So nothing with that. True, the game has very nice physics, you can interact with the environment a lot and there are few invisible barriers: it seems feasible, then it can be done. Very good. What does this have to do with pew pew and phew phew kitting?

Regarding multiclassing. Not everyone enjoys being a sorcerer pally or a sorcerer monk or whatever other splash. Some people prefer to play pure classes. For a variety of reasons. For one, some people prefer to play characters that would make sense given some understanding of the lore surrounding DnD, and not necessarily whatever makes them more powerful. And no, they don't want to be the last monkey will doing that. This is something (people not wanting to feel underpowered) specially mentioned by the developer in his initial post.

In DnD, at least when I played as a teenager, there were reasons why people didn't multiclass. Explicit penalties AND increasing returns to specialization. DDO has accepted many of the restrictions and players have played by the rules (where are the barbarian pally monks?). So I don't think it is being "********" or other of the nice things people call those of my opinion to ask for some love for pure classes.

Of course, at the end of the day this is a matter of taste.

O.o

Sorry. not sure why I'm quoted here. One of my last responses was in regards to pure builds needing better incentives.

And people ddnt multiclass as much in PnP because they didnt have to. people were not playing to"wn" in Pnp. we had groups of people we played with on a regular basis so we knew what to expect and we knew what our roles needed to be.

Trying to compare PnP to DDO is flawed on so many levels I dont understand why people try to do it. I dont know who I'm going to be grouped with 10 minutes from now or 10 days from now.

[Ancient]

Pure still requires planning, and its still its an effort. 20 lvls fighter vs 10 monk/8 fighter/2 rouge. Who is better tank?

Let me put this in another way. Planning a multiclass vs leveling a pure. whats harder?

Not enough information, for either question.

[BigErkyKid]

O.o

Sorry. not sure why I'm quoted here. One of my last responses was in regards to pure builds needing better incentives.

And people ddnt multiclass as much in PnP because they didnt have to. people were not playing to"wn" in Pnp. we had groups of people we played with on a regular basis so we knew what to expect and we knew what our roles needed to be.

Trying to compare PnP to DDO is flawed on so many levels I dont understand why people try to do it. I dont know who I'm going to be grouped with 10 minutes from now or 10 days from now.

A quote does not mean a disagreement.

Regarding comparing and and d do, I do it in terms of rules. Because that's where 3/4 of d do comes from. Now, for the people adept to disqualifying the others saying that their ideas are bad in clever ways, care to explain me how kitting is not creating a huge comparative advantage for ranged characters?

A final comment. Just because you prefer something it doesn't mean other people liking something different are wrong. I believe the op asked for our thoughts, not for a round of circle jerking. There is plenty of that already elsewhere.

[Delacroix21]

Back to topic of balance:
1. Nerf EE monster saves, to hit, damage, and spell pen

2. Reduce shiradi procs to 50% spell power

3. Disable adrenaline while multishot (remove doubleshot penalty after multishot)

4. Keep blitz at 10 stacks, cut damage increase in half



Done!

[BigErkyKid]

Back to topic of balance:
1. Nerf EE monster saves, to hit, damage, and spell pen

2. Reduce shiradi procs to 50% spell power

3. Disable adrenaline while multishot (remove doubleshot penalty after multishot)

4. Keep blitz at 10 stacks, cut damage increase in half



Done!

I don't think the specific nerd you propose is enough. First, it just means spamming some more cheap spells to compensate for damage. This already happened when metas stopped affecting procs for free. Second, it does not provide an alternative to numbers in end game.

For the mobs I think there is a thread elsewhere.

[Delacroix21]

I don't think the specific nerd you propose is enough. First, it just means spamming some more cheap spells to compensate for damage. This already happened when metas stopped affecting procs for free. Second, it does not provide an alternative to numbers in end game.

For the mobs I think there is a thread elsewhere.

Nerfing EE mobs has everything to do with balance and all the current FotM builds, please read through this thread as 95% of posters came to the same conclusion.


My changes keep builds viable but now in line with draconic etc as mob hp and saves will be lower. The problem is there are to many suggestions that nerf these builds into uselessness.


If you like playing a shiradi MM spammer pre nerf, you will even after the nerf as lower monster hp will feel similar. But now draconics etc will not get saves and evades all the time and will blast hard!

[avepepix]

maybe a choise it would be "+20" for pure and "+10" multiclass. So a pure toon has a +20 to dc saves, +20 to roll dice, etc

[Impaqt]

A quote does not mean a disagreement.

Regarding comparing and and d do, I do it in terms of rules. Because that's where 3/4 of d do comes from.

maybe in 2006 you could make a case that 75% of the game came from PnP.... Even then... I would dissagree.... but you might of had a case...

Today.. ridiculous... 75%+ of this game has come from the devs minds adapting things from PnP to somewhat work in an online game.



Now, for the people adept to disqualifying the others saying that their ideas are bad in clever ways, care to explain me how kitting is not creating a huge comparative advantage for ranged characters?

huh? again. I havent sad word one about ranged combat. I dont play a ranged toon even. why would I explain anything about kiting to anyone?

Pretty sure my Balance/Trip check idea would not go over well with the ranged toons though....




A final comment. Just because you prefer something it doesn't mean other people liking something different are wrong. I believe the op asked for our thoughts, not for a round of circle jerking. There is plenty of that already elsewhere.

who did I accuse of being wrong? o.O

[Grimlock]

A quote does not mean a disagreement.

Regarding comparing and and d do, I do it in terms of rules. Because that's where 3/4 of d do comes from. Now, for the people adept to disqualifying the others saying that their ideas are bad in clever ways, care to explain me how kitting is not creating a huge comparative advantage for ranged characters?

A final comment. Just because you prefer something it doesn't mean other people liking something different are wrong. I believe the op asked for our thoughts, not for a round of circle jerking. There is plenty of that already elsewhere.

Again, you have not been playing this game long enough if you think 3/4 of DDO equates to Dungeons and Dragons pnp.

[BigErkyKid]

maybe in 2006 you could make a case that 75% of the game came from PnP.... Even then... I would dissagree.... but you might of had a case...

Today.. ridiculous... 75%+ of this game has come from the devs minds adapting things from PnP to somewhat work in an online game.

huh? again. I havent sad word one about ranged combat. I dont play a ranged toon even. why would I explain anything about kiting to anyone?

Pretty sure my Balance/Trip check idea would not go over well with the ranged toons though....



who did I accuse of being wrong? o.O

I am not referring to you at all. I like your trip idea. I generally agreed with the content of your post. :)

[Hendrik]

Fantastic combat physics?

So your telling me you can run backwards at the same rate as you can run forwards? with the same motor control?

the silly backpedal speed in DDO is one of the biggest flaws in their game engine imo....

THey should throw a Balance check every 6 seconds. Fail and fall on your ass...

and no. I'm not generally opposed to Caster Kiters. I often kite through blade barriers as well as firewalls.

Of course, if they do something like that I really want to see them fix/remove the silly run through water slowdown and the step up animation for very short changes in elevation.

Good idea.


The next step would be something a bit more 'realistic' for jump casting/kiting.

Concentration check when you Jump? Longer reload time for ranged? Slower swing speed for melee?

[SoSoh]

You already know what you are going to nerf, so I will propose fixes that I suspect won't be too expensive or have unintended consequences.

First, please provide full LR+20 hearts.

Shiradi Missle/Ray Nerf:
Make Shiradi procs apply only to ranged attacks or 'primal' spells. Please don't nerf the Shiradi destiny for builds similar to a pure druid, ranger, or artificer. Multiple Shiradi procs per arcane spell is what is broken; the destiny itself is creative and fun.

Monkcher Nerf:
Make Adrenaline not work with bows or crossbows. Please don't go too far when you nerf ranged characters. Just taking away adrenaline should do the trick. I would leave adrenaline for the throwers, because for them it makes a little 'real world' sense.

Monk Splash Nerf:
1) Tie monk stances to monk levels.
2) Eliminate some or all of [Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave] as requirements for Overwhelming Critical. The monk's bonus feats will be less mandatory.
3) Generate loot with Incorporeal 25% or greater. This is an indirect nerf to characters splashing 6 monk. Unfortunately, it will also be a bit of a nerf to wraiths.

Regarding Master's Blitz:
It is overpowered when I solo, but I found it hard to keep a blitz going in a group with strong players. In a group, it requires some teamwork and cooperation to keep a blitz running, and I think that should be rewarded.

Buffs:
Change the PRR curve to help out the people in actual armor. PHYSICAL Resistance Rating should probably be limited to armor and shields instead of rings or jewels.

[Alfhild]

Monkcher Nerf:
Make Adrenaline not work with bows or crossbows. Please don't go too far when you nerf ranged characters. Just taking away adrenaline should do the trick. I would leave adrenaline for the throwers, because for them it makes a little 'real world' sense.

Making Adrenaline NOT work with bows or crossbows nerfs any Artificer or non-monk Ranger in Fury as well. The nerf to Monkchers on the other hand is minimal since with only a few adjustments and fairly easily acquired gear, they now become Furyshotting Shuricannons..

[Scraap]

On the mobility bit in particular, a buff/nerf that might free ya'lls hands a bit may very well be to mod existing tech in order to divorce locked motion from locked attacking.

Say, allow PCs and mobs to counterattack while webbed or earthgrabed for instance. Not dis-similarly from the solid fog mechanic. Seems that'd at least mitigate the issue with having to choose between halting players entirely or giving them total motion.

[Seikojin]

This is what I was seeing as well.

I think Armor feats should contain the juice to beef armor. At levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29;
Cloth/robes ~ No AC boost, no PRR boost, no dr, no resist, no caps.
Light ~ +1 ac, +1prr, +1 dr/-, +1 elemental resist, usual stat caps.
Medium ~ +2 ac, +1.5prr, +2 dr/-, +2 elemental resist, usual stat caps.
Heavy ~ +3 ac, +2prr, +3 dr/-, 3 elemental resist, usual stat caps.

I think all shields should get a boost to resist as well, passive and active (when blocking). At levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30:
Passive; +1 ac, +1 prr, +1 dr/-, +2 elemental resistance
Blocking: +2 ac, +2 prr, +2 dr/-, +4 elemental resistance

Two weapon blocking should make your offhand weapon count as a shield (this would boost pallys, fighters, and tempests most gutted pre's).

I love the monks using 10k stars and manyshot. I think that is awesome. However, I think manyshot and 10k stars in their own right are broken. It would be easier to make them a toggle that offers +X to doubleshot based on class level and leave it at that. This would reduce the math of one system while promoting an inherently easier one.
Manyshot: When active, provides +25% to doubleshot; +an additional 10% for every Ranger level.
10,000 stars: When active, provides a +25% to doubleshot a ranged attack; + an additional 10% for every monk level.

Or make them passives, if stances is too strict. You can math out the chances if a pure Ranged doubleshooter would be doing 5 arrows per attack in this way.

I think melee attacks should auto-intim with a d20+the damage done; when executed. Throw intim skill on timer. I think this would help a ton for melee crowd control. Or mix and match, have some abilities that auto bluff, diplo, or intim with damage replacing the skill portion.

Bards need a lot of work and so do barbarians.

Bard:
They need a way to add their perform skill tot heir spell dc's. Their enhancement trees are good, but they need some boosting everywhere. Like every single enhancement needs touchup. All tied to bard levels.
Their songs need work. They need to boost better. The feat can be fixed to provide more gains, then the enhancements can stack on top.

Barbarian
Like mentioned above, they need more dr. Pretty much all of their abilities in enhancements needs touching too. I think barbs rage should be boosted significantly. Offer more dr while raged, offer resistance boosts to elements while raged. All tied to barb levels.

Capstones:
I think they should boost the enhancements in their trees in addition tot he boosts they currently provide. +1 here and there, or +1. Maybe a 10% boost here and there, or +20%. Depending on what the enhancement does. So like a stat increase, the capstone would add 1 or 2 more. Crit chance on spells? There are 5 tiers? The capstone would add 1% to each of them, for 5% overall. Etc, etc. I think this level of boost would make pure viable for its role, without penalizing MCers enough to make everyone go pure.

This really. Most people would see a change to 10k stars and manyshot as a nerf, but it would be a boost, much like doublestrike and offhand procs has become.

[Silkenwise]

There is a general consensus throughout the thread the Epic Ward is pretty badly broken, for EE difficulty monsters. It's a blanket effect that makes trash mobs harder than bosses, and kills variety.

So how about splitting it three ways.

Epic Physical (high melee DR, HIGH physical resist, non-bypassable fortification) LOTS of HP
-balance it out with Low WILL or Low Fort save, comparatively.

Epic Magical (ungodly high SR, massive elemental resists, immunity to charms/cc)
-balance that out with lower HP, and lower Fort

Epic Shield (massive ranged defense: Displaced vs. range, high Dodge, high arrow deflection)
- balance out with low reflex and STR saves. Webbing and Grease should be usable again, ditto Trip and Melee Combat Feats.


The problem with Epic Ward is the uniformity and ubiquity, not the concept itself. Also the lack of diversity in EE monster saves is KILLING variety. A bog standard hobgoblin henchman shouldn't be CR:50 and immune to mental compulsions. He should be a meatsack with a boatload of HP and tons of DR, who swings for the fences; the opposite for epic casters, they should be physical wimps with massive magic immunities and huge nukes.

[BigErkyKid]

You already know what you are going to nerf, so I will propose fixes that I suspect won't be too expensive or have unintended consequences.

First, please provide full LR+20 hearts.

Shiradi Missle/Ray Nerf:
Make Shiradi procs apply only to ranged attacks or 'primal' spells. Please don't nerf the Shiradi destiny for builds similar to a pure druid, ranger, or artificer. Multiple Shiradi procs per arcane spell is what is broken; the destiny itself is creative and fun.

Monkcher Nerf:
Make Adrenaline not work with bows or crossbows. Please don't go too far when you nerf ranged characters. Just taking away adrenaline should do the trick. I would leave adrenaline for the throwers, because for them it makes a little 'real world' sense.

Monk Splash Nerf:
1) Tie monk stances to monk levels.
2) Eliminate some or all of [Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave] as requirements for Overwhelming Critical. The monk's bonus feats will be less mandatory.
3) Generate loot with Incorporeal 25% or greater. This is an indirect nerf to characters splashing 6 monk. Unfortunately, it will also be a bit of a nerf to wraiths.

Regarding Master's Blitz:
It is overpowered when I solo, but I found it hard to keep a blitz going in a group with strong players. In a group, it requires some teamwork and cooperation to keep a blitz running, and I think that should be rewarded.

Buffs:
Change the PRR curve to help out the people in actual armor. PHYSICAL Resistance Rating should probably be limited to armor and shields instead of rings or jewels.


Common sense quick fix. I like it. However it does leave situations unresolved, like what to do with arcane casters in end game.

[Sam1313]

If any class or race gets "Nerfed" theres gonna be a lot of angry people, AND a LOT of people leaving the game for good. Just something to think about there. I've already had a few people in my guild say they would just delete their characters. I've also had a lot of people in the guild saying they will just quit and go find something else to waste time on.
Instead of "Nerfing" anything try fixing what is broken.

[Daze]

36 pages of walls of text posts to say something that takes a few lines.



All balanced means is every class/race should be just as playable as every other class/race:

Fix Bards

Fix Barbarian rage to be cast through ... give it a cost or some prereqs etc. that's fine.

Fix the thrower crit range ... it's almost the only thing that makes a halfling useful .... that and as sacrifices to the loot gods.

Fix melee in general ... how is it that a fighter in fullplate is squishy to trash mobs?



Done

Oh and while on the subject of balancing. Why not a central Karma pool and the ability to gain XP in an off destiny from your main ED ... at an XP loss.

[blerkington]

I'm so hurt right now I'm literally in tears, maybe because I'm female Idk. All this time I thought I was playing Dungeons & Dragons. So what have I been playing? What is this game? Someone please tell me I'm so lost.

Hi,

I'm very sorry to hear you are that upset. The tone of some of your earlier posts raised my hackles and some other people's too, by the look of it.

There are plenty of very good AA builders and players around. I'd suggest you spend some time talking to them, either here on the forums or in-game on your preferred server.

Despite your recent bad experiences on the forums here the in-game community is generally a friendly place, and if you ask for help and guidance you will have a queue of people offering it.

I really hope you get the answers you need. Best of luck.

Thanks.

[Delacroix21]

I have allready presented the most fair and balanced changes to be made that wont destroy builds, but i will restate them again with some editions:

1. Nerf EE monster saves, hp, damage, spell penetration (to give SR meaning again), and to hit (to give ac meaning again)
2. Reduce shiradi procs to 50% spell power
3. Disable adrenaline with manyshot (remove manyshot doubleshot penalty)
4. Keep masters blitz at 10 stacks, but cut damage bonus in half


NEW ideas:
1. Allow barbarians and bards to be lawful
2. Buff bard trees, remove suicide hp drains from barb tree
3. Calculate DR AFTER prr!
4. Calculate elemental resist AFTER absorption!
5. Give shields passive elemental absorption (not just when blocking)

[nibel]

36 pages of walls of text posts to say something that takes a few lines.

Not really. There is a lot of stuff that don't fit in a few lines.


Fix Bards

How?


Fix Barbarian rage to be cast through ... give it a cost or some prereqs etc. that's fine.

Which cost or requisite?


Fix melee in general ... how is it that a fighter in fullplate is squishy to trash mobs?

How?


Done

Definitelly, not done. It is very easy to say "stuff X is broken, just fix it". The problem is when the fix end up being more broken than the original brokeness. And it can break on both sides (becomes too strong or too weak).

Sure, we can just point out broken stuff and let the devs figure out how they should "fix it". But then, why were people being on torches and pitchforks for the devs to come out and ask us our opinions, and let us give out feedback?

There are a ton of suggestions on this thread. And I'm actually happy that isn't much noise here of the same six people repeating their same opinion every two pages. Except you.

So, please, stop copypasting that same thing every few pages. Thank you.

[Delacroix21]

Fixing bards will require more work than barbarians.

Barbarians would get a big boost from DR being calculated after PRR.


Bards however need new songs, new enhancement trees with usefull abilities (gathering cold, COMON!), I would also like their meele song to scale better by having it increase physical damage by a percentage (say 10%) instead of by a static number. Enhancements and EDs that add to inspire courage will increase this percentage to perhaps a cap of 20-25% for pure 20 bards? Also give caster bards the 2 shout spells as SLAs with meta's attached.

[Nédime]

EE Von3 Solo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57V8sNK_ntA&feature=youtu.be)

I've done it in harder content too, that is just what I have a video of.

yeah exactly what I was saying, we're not speaking of Korthos. I mean I didn't watch the whole thing (33 minutes to complete von3 !) but the 5-6 bursts I saw in your video make less than 15k damage (the one after audience with the queen hits for like 12k). So two things : in EE what goes up for instance 1. you won't one shot mobs with that amount of damage and 2. I don't know about your DCs but hitting mobs in 'classic' EE epics (phiarlan, von, sentinels ...) is not hitting them in new stuff like EE GH, storm horns, prison. I mean it requires like +15 to your dc in comparison - and I'm pretty sure I'm beyond the truth.

[MyraScott]

I took the survey, but I wish I hadn't because you won't learn anything from the way the survey is worded.

[Nédime]

Bards however need new songs, new enhancement trees with usefull abilities (gathering cold, COMON!), I would also like their meele song to scale better by having it increase physical damage by a percentage (say 10%) instead of by a static number. Enhancements and EDs that add to inspire courage will increase this percentage to perhaps a cap of 20-25% for pure 20 bards? Also give caster bards the 2 shout spells as SLAs with meta's attached.

Dunna if they need new songs or - on the contrary need their songs to merge into something like combat songs, spell songs ... Mainly for homogenous duration.
I'm perfectly fine with the % thingie : while inspire courage is one of the best buffs on heroics it makes no sense in epics. I definitely like the idea of Greater Shout as a SLA - this could be a decent mix of damage and CC at a decent cost.

[Pandir]

You already know what you are going to nerf, so I will propose fixes that I suspect won't be too expensive or have unintended consequences.

Monkcher Nerf:
Make Adrenaline not work with bows or crossbows. Please don't go too far when you nerf ranged characters. Just taking away adrenaline should do the trick. I would leave adrenaline for the throwers, because for them it makes a little 'real world' sense.



Eh please leave it with crossbows, Artificers have it hard enough if they go crossbow and not caster. Actually it probably would be enough to change how adrenaline works with Manyshot or anything shooting multiple projectiles.

Actually thinking about it, we could really use a good artificer/ranged ED spec.

[General_Gronker]

All balanced means is every class/race should be just as playable as every other class/race:

No, that's not what it means. All characters are playable. Balanced means each is able to contribute equally, yet differently, to the successful completion of an adventure (i.e., they share screen time).

The first step to getting balance back is to go back and fix so many of the nerfs you've implemented over the last couple of years. Go find a Player's Handbook. That's a good place to start.

[Recared]

If you ae looking for OP unbalanced classes then you might want to start with the whopper of all that is unbalanced. the shardi caster mm build. Im going to get alot of grief for this post im sure but It needs to be addresed. Lolz i can go into pretty much any EE quest from EE tor to EE lines of supply up to and including quest like EE brothers forge and EE study in the sabel and with pretty much hitting 8 keys solo them in much less time than 90% of the gamers out there in full groups. There are many different shardi caster mm builds out there some great some not so great but in general the shardi caster mm build is way OP and completly unbalances the game.

Easy is not the same as Overpowered. There are mobs and bosses immune to mm, by the way. Is it more dps than monkcher? Is it faster to complete quests than monkcher? If melees could handle the damage input on ee, would shiradi be more dps than them? would complete faster? In my opinion, based on my experience, the answer is no to all questions.

Also, and this has not been discussed: How will affect new crafted weapons to all balance of power (let's call this a mix between effectiveness/dps/speed)?? Because with the new weapons, you can hit for around 500 damage average per hit. Take a speed hitter and you have an incredible dps. I can elaborate on that number if anyone is interested. Shiradis won't see their dps increased by much at all with all these new loot/crafting.

[Recared]

1. I think Sorcs DPS is not out of the realm of reason considering their role and abilities, when E-burst is taken out of the picture. Dragon Breath is sweet, but at a long cooldown and 5/rest they don't drive the damage. I find that I can reasonably hope to get almost all of the kills in a party if I rely solely on E-burst with some fireballs to clean up the stragglers. I never run out of SP if I take any interest in not doing so. I think E-burst is OP and Sorcs are poorly equipped outside of that.



EB is available to everyone. I used it almost on every build.

[Uska]

If any class or race gets "Nerfed" theres gonna be a lot of angry people, AND a LOT of people leaving the game for good. Just something to think about there. I've already had a few people in my guild say they would just delete their characters. I've also had a lot of people in the guild saying they will just quit and go find something else to waste time on.
Instead of "Nerfing" anything try fixing what is broken.

Part of the problem is a d20 system is going to break on hitting high lvl it happens in pnp and it did here to dnd isn't balanced so I don't figure it really happening here. They added a lot of things that added power to characters to try and make them more interesting well it worked but it also lowered the point at which characters become broken.


Things need to be "nerfed" both characters and monsters or they will never get anything near a balance.

[Recared]

The mayor problem here its the multiclass system.
Because theres no restriction, you can make anything you like.

DDO, take the D&D system, but a multiclass has no penalty, so a multiclass can be better than a pure class.
We can argue that this go with that or not, like ex. boulder toss.



Didn't know that was a problem. This game has a population with the mind set that this game is about classes and another population that believes this game is about builds. I believe this game is not about classes.
By the way, I wouldn't have minded that multiclass incorporated a penalty to xp, but it didn't. Well, in P&P u didn't get the capstone benefits either.

[Nédime]

Easy is not the same as Overpowered. There are mobs and bosses immune to mm, by the way. Is it more dps than monkcher? Is it faster to complete quests than monkcher? If melees could handle the damage input on ee, would shiradi be more dps than them? would complete faster? In my opinion, based on my experience, the answer is no to all questions.


How many ? Crateos, Abbot, Arach's Knight, Liches (Rayum and Validus). Armors in new area are healed by force. And btw, the main damage doesn't come from MM.



I can elaborate on that number if anyone is interested. Shiradis won't see their dps increased by much at all with all these new loot/crafting.

That is a good thing they don't further benefit lol they already do huge frequent non savable low sp cost damage with something that should probably not work this way - at least not as efficiently.

[Nédime]

Didn't know that was a problem. This game has a population with the mind set that this game is about classes and another population that believes this game is about builds. I believe this game is not about classes.
By the way, I wouldn't have minded that multiclass incorporated a penalty to xp, but it didn't. Well, in P&P u didn't get the capstone benefits either.

All those classes Vs Build discussion make me think of an important question that should have been in the poll : How far does DDO need to stick to DnD (and what edition, I stopped at 2.0) ?

Because the answer would imply very different strategies.

[Recared]

the Key to achieving some resemblance of character balance lies in providing real tangible benefits to being a pure class build.

Currently, Splashing monks and Paladin create comparatively overpowered characters because staying pure has little benefit.

Hi master Impaqt,

With all due respect (sincerely), I disagree there. By the same logic I could say balance lies in providing real tangible benefits to being any sort of build, pure cleric, or pure antisinergetic combination of classes. Also there are real tangible benefits to being a pure class. Take for instance rogue: now they have a, b, c and 5% quarterstaff speed. Well at least you didn't say "benefits equal or more powerful than having evasion and +15 saves".

[EllisDee37]

I generally tune out the "pure classes need love" arguments because I don't particularly care about pure classes. I'm not against giving pures love, I just don't care about it. My DC casters are pure, but none of my melee alts are. I don't think I'd ever even want to roll up a pure melee of any stripe even if they were clearly more powerful.

When I think of balancing, I think of two different "sets" of balancing:

1) Casters should be on roughly even footing with other casters
2) Melee should be on roughly even footing with other melee
3) There is no compelling reason why casters and melee need to be on roughly even footing

Caster balancing is pretty simple, IMO: keep the "max possible DC" of each caster class within 2 or 3 points of each other. Done and done.

Melee balancing is trickier. And here's where I think the biggest imbalance lies:

1) Every melee is best off (by a mile) being bladeforged. This is a clear racial imbalance. Those melee who cannot be bladeforged (barbarians, warchanters) are at a severe disadvantage.
2) Every melee is made significantly stronger by splashing two monk levels. All of them. Those who cannot (again barbarians and warchanters) are at a severe disadvantage.

These are two clearly imbalanced aspects of the current game that probably should be addressed. For the bladeforged, I'd say switch the SLA to repair serious damage, similar to what paladins and rangers get to work with (cure serious wounds). For monks, make the form feats require monk levels instead of character levels and move the +1 crit multiplier from earth to fire stance.

EDIT: Since one the biggest limiting factors on quickened+maximized cure serious wounds is your mana pool, to balance a repair serious wounds sla I guess don't let metamagics work with it. Doing that would require stepping it up to repair critical at least. (Possiblly repair serious, mass?)

[Fhauvial]

Part of the problem is a d20 system is going to break on hitting high lvl it happens in pnp and it did here to dnd isn't balanced so I don't figure it really happening here. They added a lot of things that added power to characters to try and make them more interesting well it worked but it also lowered the point at which characters become broken.


Things need to be "nerfed" both characters and monsters or they will never get anything near a balance.

They've gone completely the other direction from what was 'broken' in PnP. They actually fixed the broken aspects, without realizing it, then broke it even worse.

[Daze]

So, please, stop copypasting that same thing every few pages. Thank you.

If you actually have something constructive to add please do.

I hadn't pasted that since page 27 ... and I sure as hell don't expect people to read back that far.

As for answering your questions ... It's all self-explanatory to anyone who is familiar with the problems. My not putting in specific ways to fix is just me not doing the developers jobs for them. Seeing as they are the ones coding it and have knowledge I don't ... seems justified to me. I am assuming they don't want to break barbarian rage again ... so letting them fix it as they see fit may prevent that...... /hope

Bards are broken and have been for a while. Play one and figure it out.

Barbarian's being rage dependant and rage is so limiting by not being able to even cast SLA's through it breaks the class.

Halfling comment ... self explanatory no?

Melee being survivable can be done a number of ways...... I leave that to the developers. This would address many of the balancing concerns of melee being non-viable in EE content


So yes. A few lines sums up the balancing concerns. I will repost as I see fit. Just about all the suggestions in here ARE addressed by the lines above especially considering half of them just call for nerfs that are uncalled for..... yeah it's worth reposting.

Your welcome.

EDIT: Oh how I wish this discussion took place somewhere else so I can speak my mind....

[Cardtrick]

1) Casters should be on roughly even footing with other casters
2) Melee should be on roughly even footing with other melee
3) There is no compelling reason why casters and melee need to be on roughly even footing

I normally agree with everything you post, to the point that it tends to change my own opinion when I initially disagreed.

But I'm having trouble with this.

To me, the compelling reason that casters and melee need to be on roughly even footing is that they're playing exactly the same content. It's not fun if one caster can solo content that takes 5 melees and a very good healer, assuming roughly equal levels of player skill. The content has to be designed for some type of character, which either leaves one group feeling bored or the other feeling frustrated. I don't think they have to be exactly the same -- in fact, I like some differences in effectiveness in certain quests or roles -- but they need to be at least in the same ballpark. Right now, non-Bladeforged, non-evasion melees aren't even playing the same sport.

You're also disregarding ranged here. To me, that's actually the biggest difference -- not casters vs. melee, but ranged (including casters) vs. non-ranged. The incoming damage close up is just so high that achieving any semblance of balance between these groups right now requires the melee character to go to incredible lengths for protections -- the standard bladeforged (self healing) + monk (incorporeality, evasion, dodge, saves) + paladin (saves). Which then leaves builds that do go to these lengths at a huge advantage compared to those that don't, greatly reducing the variety of effective builds.

[TheDr0wRanger]

If you actually have something constructive to add please do.

I hadn't pasted that since page 27 ... and I sure as hell don't expect people to read back that far.

As for answering your questions ... It's all self-explanatory to anyone who is familiar with the problems. My not putting in specific ways to fix is just me not doing the developers jobs for them. Seeing as they are the ones coding it and have knowledge I don't ... seems justified to me.

*SNIP*

If it's self explanatory, to anyone who is familiar with the problems, and you don't actually have a solution, then you are adding nothing of value. So I repeat your words back, If you actually have something constructive to add, please do. Until then you are clogging a thread attempting to tell everyone they are wrong and your trite little repost is without merit.
What is wrong is precisely the topic in debate, and even if you are right about the problem, its hardly so simple as you make it seem. We need the discussion you keep trying to shut down(or at the very least disregard), if nothing else to make more players understand what's being done.


Oh how I wish this discussion took place somewhere else so I can speak my mind....

While I'm sure it would be entertaining in a vacuous sort of way, I'd prefer if you'd actually offer useful input to the situation.

[Ancient]

Here is what I posted in another thread about how to balance and fix pure classes. The only change suggested was that perhaps the percentage healing for the occult slayer lvl 18 core was too high.


Developer resources are being used as a reason to balance by nerf. This got me thinking if there were some easy buffs that would produce a more diverse play field, but done in a way to minimize the resource needs (in other words, don't re-invent DDO).

Here are my thoughts on changes that would tempt me to play almost every class/destiny. My focus was on boosting pure(ish) class builds to be competitive with deep multiclass builds, and encouraging the use of rarely used epic destinies. My subjective (completely subjective, so others are likely to not agree) criteria was to find something that would tempt me to actually play that class/destiny. I'd love to read what buffs would do the trick for others.

Enhancement Trees
Barbarian
Occult Slayer level 18 core adds the following: When you do melee damage in combat, you are healed for an amount equal to 10% of that damage. (No restrictions on procs per second or max hp or anything, this is the barbarian self-healing that is lore appropriate).
Occult Slayer level 20 core adds the following: When you rage you also receive the benefits of a heal spell. You can refresh rage before the previous rage has expired.

Stalwart Defender/Sacred Defender
Level 18 core adds the following: Your PRR damage reduction is doubled (You gain half the distance between your current number and 100%).
Level 20 core adds Your PRR damage reduction also applies to elemental damage.

Warchanter
Level 18 Core adds: You receive a profane save bonus equal to half your charisma bonus.
Level 20 Core adds: Expend one song to increase your strength by an amount equal to your charisma bonus.

SpellSinger
Level 18 Core adds: You receive phantasmal killer as a spell. You receive a +3 morale bonus to illusion spell DCs.
Level 20 Core adds: Change wail to weird (Basically wail with an illusion save). Add, your morale bonus to illusion spell DCs is now +6.

Sorcerer
All Savant Level 18 Cores add: The casting cost for spells of this element are reduced by half.
All Savant Level 20 Cores add: The casting cost for spells of this element are reduced by 75%, the cost of non-opposing elemental spells are reduced by half.

Wizard
Archmage 20 - The casting cost for spells of your specialization are reduced by half.
Palemaster 20 - Every time you kill an oponent, you gain 10 spell points.

Ranger
Arcane Archer 18 core - If you have 18 levels of ranger then the cooldown of manyshot is reduced by half.

Half-Elf
Core 7 - You can visit Fred to choose an appearance of another race.

Epic Destinies
Fatesinger
Turn the tide has duration increased to two minutes and the cooldown removed. The restriction on magic damage against bosses is also removed.

Magister
The Sigils are dropped and replaced with USEFUL SLAs based on the specialization school.

Shadowdancer
I got nothing, this tree is full of weak abilities with drawbacks, silly limitations and is the only destiny tree weaker than any of most of the heroic enhancement trees (Yeah, I don't like this one).

Grandmaster of Flowers
Dial the nerf on everything is nothing back to 3 minutes instead of 5.

Exalted Angel
Reborn in the light: Change the duration to 30 seconds and the cooldown to 2 minutes. Eliminate the need for counters.

Unyielding Sentinel
Add a prism/rainbow style proc ability to one of the core stances that doesn't have raid killing joker effects.

[Daze]

If it's self explanatory, to anyone who is familiar with the problems, and you don't actually have a solution, then you are adding nothing of value. So I repeat your words back, If you actually have something constructive to add, please do. Until then you are clogging a thread attempting to tell everyone they are wrong and your trite little repost is without merit.

I have posted solutions without specifics. If you have them then by all means.... do tell. There have been several posts in this thread that are useful and I don't feel the need to clog the thread repeating them. I have commented against several nerfs out of principal.



What is wrong is precisely the topic in debate, and even if you are right about the problem, its hardly so simple as you make it seem. We need the discussion you keep trying to shut down(or at the very least disregard), if nothing else to make more players understand what's being done.

Not clogging or shutting anything down. Simply cutting to the chase and preventing burial of it. Speaking of obstructive, non-useful and vacuous posts ...

[SirValentine]

All those classes Vs Build discussion make me think of an important question that should have been in the poll : How far does DDO need to stick to DnD (and what edition, I stopped at 2.0) ?


Well, the answer to "what edition?" should be a no-brainer: DDO was specifically designed from v3.5.

[HatsuharuZ]

Hi master Impaqt,

With all due respect (sincerely), I disagree there. By the same logic I could say balance lies in providing real tangible benefits to being any sort of build, pure cleric, or pure antisinergetic combination of classes. Also there are real tangible benefits to being a pure class. Take for instance rogue: now they have a, b, c and 5% quarterstaff speed. Well at least you didn't say "benefits equal or more powerful than having evasion and +15 saves".

I disagree with you. The rogue acrobat capstone, specifically the 5% attack speed you listed was only recently added. Most other class capstones have not had the same treatment.

Here are some examples, taken from the wiki:


Storm's Eye: You hit harder, but not smarter.
Activate: You gain +1 melee damage, -1 Melee Attack, -1 AC. You take 1d20 untyped damage every 6 seconds. These modifiers and damage over time gain one stack every six seconds, up to 25 stacks. This ends when you are below 50% health. Activation Cost: 100 Hit Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.

The above is horrible. It does more damage to the user than it does to the enemy, and makes it more likely that the user will die.



Horizon Shot: You gain +2 Dexterity and +1 Sneak Attack Die. You are always considered to be in Point Blank Shot and Ranged Sneak Attack range.
+20 Positive Spell Power

The positive energy spellpower is nice, but pbs range is easily attainable by simply moving a bit closer to the target.



My point is, your argument only applies to a few situations. Capstones don't need to all give evasion or two extra feats, but they do need to give multiple bonuses to be competitive with monk, paladin etc. splashes. Currently, most of them aren't, in my opinion.

[Cardtrick]

Here is what I posted in another thread about how to balance and fix pure classes. The only change suggested was that perhaps the percentage healing for the occult slayer lvl 18 core was too high.

I feel like most of these buffs are too much, and also too restrictive.

Definitely the barbarian one is way over the top -- while simultaneously locking the player into a particularly enhancement line. I like the general idea of a barbarian gaining health while in melee combat. But 10% of damage done is just . . . crazy.

I'd rather see something like +1 hp per strike at barbarian level 4, increasing by 1 for every 4 barbarian levels (to a max of 5 at level 20). This would be modified by positive spellpower and healing amp. Give occult slayer an enhancement at tier 4 or 5 that gives a Devotion bonus equal to Weapon Bond (or maybe Weapon Bond with a level-based multiplier). Give a healing effect to each capstone -- ravager has a chance to proc Heal when taking damage, frenzied berserker has an AOE healing effect with stat restoration (similar to ameliorating strike, but probably more powerful) when raging (either when activating rage or once every X seconds while raged), occult slayer has a chance to proc Heal on self when attacking when weapon bond > 100.

Useful abilities at the class level and in every enhancement tree, while retaining some of their flavor.

[SirValentine]

1) Casters should be on roughly even footing with other casters
2) Melee should be on roughly even footing with other melee
3) There is no compelling reason why casters and melee need to be on roughly even footing


Depends on what you mean by "roughly even footing". It's OK if, say, casters excels at some things melees are weak at, as long as there's other meaningful areas where melees excel and casters are weaker.

But there's not only no compelling reason for them to be good at the same things, but that would, to me, be an actively bad goal to pursue.

Balance isn't everyone being identical, it's about different things (class/race/ED/whatever) being (roughly) equally useful. Including melees versus casters.

[Alfhild]

Well, the answer to "what edition?" should be a no-brainer: DDO was specifically designed from v3.5.
Naw, 1st Ed AD&D. That way Rangers can get a summon follower spell which has a chance to proc the Stormreaver.

[Timap]

Depends on what you mean by "roughly even footing". It's OK if, say, casters excels at some things melees are weak at, as long as there's other meaningful areas where melees excel and casters are weaker.

Different builds can be good at different things : DPS, Tanking, Healing, CCing, Trapping.
Sadly, only 1 of these things is king in EE content.
So when people talk about balancing builds along only that single dimension, it is with some justification.
It would take a pretty big overhaul to just to make Tanking and Healing pertinent again.

[TheDr0wRanger]

I have posted solutions without specifics. If you have them then by all means.... do tell. There have been several posts in this thread that are useful and I don't feel the need to clog the thread repeating them. I have commented against several nerfs out of principal.




Not clogging or shutting anything down. Simply cutting to the chase and preventing burial of it. Speaking of obstructive, non-useful and vacuous posts ...


If you have posted solutions, I haven't seen them, I apologize if I've missed it. But if by "solutions" you mean statements like "fix x" then I must call shenanigans. That's not a solution, thats a goal, and it offers no insight into what is wrong with x in the first place.

You are trying to shut down discussion, or at the very least you make it appear that you want to.
"36 pages of comments to say what can be said in a few lines" distinctly smacks of trying to close the book on everyone else's opinions.

I have offered solutions, I've posted a standard page of material 3 times in this thread alone, stopping to agree with another person that you are behaving like a ninny is an attempt to filter waste. Your point has been made, twice now, bumping the same post multiple times is not necessary as the devs will have seen it if they were paying any attention at all. I would be surprised if it isn't at least vaguely against forum guidlines. But your tone screams that you think yourself the only one with valid opinion, so go ahead, make yourself heard.

I'm done arguing this anyway, Its becoming a derail and I've said my piece. Sorry for the mess guys.

[Uska]

All those classes Vs Build discussion make me think of an important question that should have been in the poll : How far does DDO need to stick to DnD (and what edition, I stopped at 2.0) ?

Because the answer would imply very different strategies.

We are based on 3.5 the d20 system and it even starts to break down at upper levels and with the enhancement system and the Monty Haul loot system it happened here much faster than it does in pnp I don't see how they can easily "balance" with taking large steps away from its roots and if they do I question if I will continue to play. If they leave heroic pretty much alone and concentrate on epic then I could continue there. But I fear they are going to totally ruin the game that I have enjoyed playing for the last 8 years.

[avepepix]

Didn't know that was a problem. This game has a population with the mind set that this game is about classes and another population that believes this game is about builds. I believe this game is not about classes.
By the way, I wouldn't have minded that multiclass incorporated a penalty to xp, but it didn't. Well, in P&P u didn't get the capstone benefits either.

Well in pnp capstone dont exist =)
In pnp you have prestige classes, here the prestige its the class
For that this game its about classes and builds. With this new enhacement tree with 1 lvl in any class you can fill almost all the tree if you want.

This discussion its about character balance, maybe im wrong, but i think the balance its broken with too mutch multiclass. A fighter has enhacement that work for monk, a ranger has enhacemnt that work for monk. Why? Why monk dont have enhacement that work for bard, wizard or fighter?
Who is suppouse to be a better melee? a monk or a fighter? 20 lvl Fighter, 20 lvl monk, or 10 monk/2fighter/8 ranger?

In the run to end game, in my experience, a multiclass character its better than a pure. The capstone dont make any diference

[avepepix]

We are based on 3.5 the d20 system and it even starts to break down at upper levels and with the enhancement system and the Monty Haul loot system it happened here much faster than it does in pnp I don't see how they can easily "balance" with taking large steps away from its roots and if they do I question if I will continue to play. If they leave heroic pretty much alone and concentrate on epic then I could continue there. But I fear they are going to totally ruin the game that I have enjoyed playing for the last 8 years.

Dont loose your fate.
Some classes needs love, its only that. The perfect balance dont exist, maybe a little boost to some classes will help.

[SirValentine]

Well in pnp capstone dont exist =)


Right...and neither does the enhancement system. Since the enhancement system itself is a big source of current imbalance, using another part of it, capstones, to try to partially counter-act that doesn't seem crazy.



The capstone dont make any diference

Hence people asking for better capstones.

[Nédime]

Well, the answer to "what edition?" should be a no-brainer: DDO was specifically designed from v3.5.

Roger that, Sir, but seems to me we're kinda far from it now, no ?

[Nédime]

We are based on 3.5 the d20 system and it even starts to break down at upper levels and with the enhancement system and the Monty Haul loot system it happened here much faster than it does in pnp I don't see how they can easily "balance" with taking large steps away from its roots and if they do I question if I will continue to play. If they leave heroic pretty much alone and concentrate on epic then I could continue there. But I fear they are going to totally ruin the game that I have enjoyed playing for the last 8 years.

Tbh, I don't care much for heroic, I mean, as a multi-TR i have leveled well and awfully built toons with an elite streak till 20. I've also played my 1st and 2nd life toons with multi-TR and while they're not as powerful, I managed to go through quite easily (well there are still some specific quests that can be harder for some builds and easier for other on elite : spies, invaders, running with devils, spinner, ETK, ...).

I'm not sure if the balance problem is such an acute problem on heroic. When I was overwhelmed I could fascinate/entral half a dungeon and finsih them one by one.

[Sir_L0LL0]

http://i.imgur.com/Jnraasf.jpg

[Fhauvial]

I'm not sure if the balance problem is such an acute problem on heroic. When I was overwhelmed I could fascinate/entral half a dungeon and finsih them one by one.

Heroics feel like they're at a much better balance point. It's Epic that's blatantly broken.

[Amundir]

I started reading, but then skipped to end. Man there are alot of posts, heh.

IMO, the place to start in balancing is to take a look at the base classes. Examine each class at lv 20. Ask people to identify why playing the class (in non-epic content) is undesirable. Identify pain points. Change them. See the backlash, cause obviously that will ripple up into epic content, which will be the hardest part cause there are so many variances a person can take with the current epic destiny system.

Some things off the top of my head to consider (which people will hate. they do not take into account what you may *need* to do epic content currently).
1) Raise level Evasion is aquired.
Why: Increases the cost to benifit for splashing.
2) Require 10 (maybe 8) levels of certain base classes as a prereq for selecting/using an epic destiny (possibly exempting twists).
Why: Focuses the destinies to classes related to them, which personally makes sense. Also could help with then looking at builds 20+ and looking for pain points. I know many will hammer this as 'the opposite to ddos character customization', but lets consider that that possibly is a factor in the imbalance. I don't mean to say it's bad, just that possibly it could be scaled back some.

[CeltEireson]

Heroics feel like they're at a much better balance point. It's Epic that's blatantly broken.

Probably more a case of that's its not as apparent in heroics, or at least not for experienced players. But yes the higher level you go the more there seems to be an imbalance.

[Krell]

Here is what I posted in another thread about how to balance and fix pure classes. The only change suggested was that perhaps the percentage healing for the occult slayer lvl 18 core was too high.

I agree if the goal is to get more classes and EDs effective in EE, these suggestions would get us closer. The number of builds (classes/races/EDs) that are effective in EE are too small, and more players keep gravitating towards them leading to less diversity. I don't think the answer is to further restrict the number of effective builds through nerfing. Another alternative is to nerf builds and look at EE difficulty, although that may be less popular. One way or the other I think we need more builds that are effective in top level content so that players can enjoy the diversity of DDO and still be welcome in most groups. Once you have the high level goal and strategy, I think working out the change details will be easier. Personally I would be curious to know if the overall goal is to make EE exclusive to a small percent of players, to boost up more builds to be effective in EE, or to look at EE difficulty. I think that would help us to better focus our feedback.

[Qhualor]

I agree if the goal is to get more classes and EDs effective in EE, these suggestions would get us closer. The number of builds (classes/races/EDs) that are effective in EE are too small, and more players keep gravitating towards them leading to less diversity. I don't think the answer is to further restrict the number of effective builds through nerfing. Another alternative is to nerf builds and look at EE difficulty, although that may be less popular. One way or the other I think we need more builds that are effective in top level content so that players can enjoy the diversity of DDO and still be welcome in most groups. Once you have the high level goal and strategy, I think working out the change details will be easier. Personally I would be curious to know if the overall goal is to make EE exclusive to a small percent of players, to boost up more builds to be effective in EE, or to look at EE difficulty. I think that would help us to better focus our feedback.

ive been paying closer attention to builds in epics for the past couple weeks on my server. most pure builds are divine/arcane types, but I would say they make up the majority of the pures I see in epics. I would say 3/4 of the players have 2-9 levels of rogue/monk, but monk makes up for most of that percentage. in EEs I would say 8 times out of 10 a group is made of ranged/caster types, while on EH its a random mixture of everything.

this is the way players have gravitated to building characters due to how the content is designed. if some how the devs were able to create a better balance so that all classes and builds can feel useful and not feel like a constant soulstone, im willing to bet there would be less nerf rages against certain FOTM builds and everyone can play what they want, pure or mix. the game would be a lot more fun if there could be more variety that is certainly viable in end game content than what we have now.