Player Character Balance [Archive] - Page 7 - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

GMoneyMackDaddy

04-06-2014, 01:42 PM

If it is a foregone conclusion that melee should never overtake arcane in term of dps and survivability, then it should be a courtesy to state so. If one had the early warning that melee is not viable in late game, one would not have wasted time to build a melee toon - whose sole purpose in party seem to be reduced to being just a spectator. There is nothing fun being a melee in DDO right now. Not when mobs are getting CC by ranged when tactical feats are useless. Not when melee dps is reduced by fortification the constant hassle to equip the right weapon to beat DR when arcane has spells to bypass spell resistance. Not when there is no need for a tank in raid when you can't even build a decent tank without godly gears. Not when you respond to the outcry of arcane DC but ignore the AC of melee. Not when arcane has more hitpoints than melee. Not when kiting has no real drawback. Not when melee has no real advantage. Not when reconstruct on arcane warforged is okay but considering nerfing melee BF SLA.

Do you think newcomer's perception of balance is the same as the veteran? Newcomer who tried DDO and perceive the imbalance would not stick around long to understand any late game mechanics. And if they do make it to late game, melee players would be quite shocked when they realise they should either TR to arcane or just leave the game.

Wow, just wow....

I play a lvl 28 human PURE light monk melee, handwraps only, cept the shuriken here and there to pull mobs.

EN/EH/EE doesnt matter to me, and its FUN AS ALL GET OUT. I LOVE PLAYING HIM.

Why all the hate people?

I dont care how powerfull anyone is, im here for entertainment and fun.

Thats a good enough reason for me to play a melee.

BigErkyKid

04-06-2014, 03:43 PM

Wow, just wow....

I play a lvl 28 human PURE light monk melee, handwraps only, cept the shuriken here and there to pull mobs.

EN/EH/EE doesnt matter to me, and its FUN AS ALL GET OUT. I LOVE PLAYING HIM.

Why all the hate people?

I dont care how powerfull anyone is, im here for entertainment and fun.

Thats a good enough reason for me to play a melee.

I am sure he didn't mean it is no fun at all. But let's be honest, in heroics a well build and well geared sorc (and even a not so well prepared one but lead by a proficient player) will rock most of the content at a completely different speed and ease than most of the other classes. It isn't that much fun to see someone clearly outpower you constantly.

In epics, it is a completely different story. The supremacy is on "viable" ranged builds.

Now it is said time and again that we should not look at how others play, just focus on having fun. I don't think that's a very valid reasoning. For several reasons:

* Most people have a touch of pride when they play. I think it is reasonable not to want to be clearly inferior to other party members.

* Everyone wants to feel useful in some sense. Following a trail of corpses of someone who just speeds ahead of you and rains death is not fun.

* People cannot choose their team mates. Unless you have a very strong group of friends playing or a extremely active guild, you will find yourself puging frequently. Imposing on yourself having to avoid the "OP" builds will further limit your capacity to play.

* DnD (and hence DDO) was created around the concept of trade offs and the group complementing each other's strenghts. Again, everyone (assuming a reasonable build) should be "the best" at something.

If you build your character smartly, you shouldn't be completely outpowered by someone else in everything. That for me is the definition of OP. When two people doing the best they can with two different builds results in one person being superior in every relevant aspect to the game to the other.

Perhaps a smart build is superior to another in say 3 out of the 4 aspects. But it cannot be that a combination of character/classes completely beats another (again, assuming that both are well build).

Thayion516

04-06-2014, 07:48 PM

What is absolutely Over Powered is the unintentional synergies between FotW+Manyshot+10kStar. Also Shirdadi counting on each arrow in Manyshot and each Magic Missle. These produce insane amounts of damage output that unbalances encounters, builds and group dynamics. You cannot tell me this is working as intended. The base mechanics of the game on many other scenarios do not follow these precedents.

Fix?: Make Adrenaline only count single arrows, not a single MS volley of 4 arrows doing 2200,1875,1780,2344 (and maybe a 9000+ Slaying arrow) all at the same time. IF this is intentional, I want all of my Melee attacks to get Adrenaline in my combat round sequence.

Fix?: make 10kStar not allow additional projectiles while Manyshot cooldown is negating Doubleshot.

Fix?: Make Shiradi count the first Arrow and the first Spell damage per spell cast.

On Other stuff. The BF Reconstruct is one of the few things that keep melee in game IMO. It allows for some survivability as EE mobs punch you in the face for 200-400 hps a hit.

Melee only need a boost in 2 areas: Survivability and Crowd Control options. They already have a sustained DPS output. Give us some flexibility on the insane numbers needed for Stunning Blow/Fist/Trip to land. Who thought it would be a acceptable idea to require a 70+DC to land a stun? Also Add some more CC ED like Overwhelming Force, that's a great ability (non-twistable).

I know the AC/PPR changes are recent, however they are not what we need in Top-End combat. I like the PPR model but it is too small right now. And AC is still too limiting rolling inside a D20 with mobs that have +100 to hit you.

Fix?: Decrease the Curve on PPR and make it a little more flat. Make It scale off of Character Level as well as Actual PPR number. Give Armors More PPR or AC,, Hell Both! BTW .. a Monk should not have more AC/PPR then a Heavy Armored fighter. Hell, that don't even make any sense.

Also basically like 5 of the Epic Destiny Trees are unusable trash and alot of the abilities in the usable trees are poor to mediocre.. Refine the Destiny Trees to better fit play styles and builds.

On Multiclassing. Basically the reason its so easy to multiclass and gain more then you loose is the upper teirs of the class/Presige trees offer weak abilities. At Lv 12 I can have 90% of all a Prestige available to me. Make the 5th and 6th tier of prestige classes' core enhancements actually good to have and make Capstones better. Now this is Assuming that DDO wants to encourage more single class building.

However CAUTION: As with any changes to a MMORPG, I advise Targeted Slow Steady Changes that have been thoroughly thought through and tested. Followed by a brief reasoning for the changes.

Slow and Precise is orders of magnitude better then Fast and Sweeping.

Dalsheel

04-06-2014, 08:09 PM

On Other stuff. The BF Reconstruct is one of the few things that keep melee in game IMO. It allows for some survivability as EE mobs punch you in the face for 200-400 hps a hit.

So, for you, all melee should be BF? I'd say that's the definition of OP right there.

Thanks for making it crystal clear.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 06:50 AM

So, for you, all melee should be BF? I'd say that's the definition of OP right there.

Thanks for making it crystal clear.

How, by any stretch of the imagination, is that the definition of OP? The point was the only thing
that make it viable as a melee is the ability to self heal. As demonstrated for the last 3 or 4 pages,
without it there's no compelling reason to be a BF melee. You start off with -55% positive healing
- there's no sane way of making this work compared to a non-WF/BF character.

You take Reconstruct as it's your only viable healing option. Otherwise your BF is a caster and takes
the Reconstruct spell. All this will do, IMO, is force existing Cetus/Zeus type builds back into more
general purpose Juggernaut style builds.

WF and, if Reconstruct SLA is nerfed too hard, BF will not be viable as melee characters due to the
absence of healing amplification. You already don't see WF melee.

As a more general point on 'balance' rather than a specific rebuttal, perhaps we should have a system
where you select:

1) Archer
2) Fighter
3) Wizard
4) Tank

The Archer would be the fastest, they'd be ranged and would come with a green cosmetic armour kit.
The Fighter would be the best Melee DPS, they would come with a red cosmetic armour kit.
The Wizard would cast magic missile, they would come with a yellow cosmetic armour kit.
The tank would have the best AC and PRR or 'Armour' as it would be called, they would come with a
blue cosmetic armour kit.

One could pick various races but these would just function as skins - there'd be no material difference
in performance. This way you couldn't have people paying for this things to give them an advantage
over those who choose not to pay for it. We could even have an inbuilt handicap system whereby
if you're not performing as well as the people you are teamed with, they get penalties to damage
or movement speed. How does that sound?

Either have store bought (Shadowfell was a bought expansion) virtual services (including races) with
advantages over FTP supplied virtual services or don't. Don't change your mind nearly a year down
the line. If you want to have store bought services as purely cosmetic then fine but make that
clear. I'd wager that sales would not be nearly as good but what do I know?

There are good players and worse players. There are people who are excellent at spotting build
synergies and using them. These people should be rewarded for their skill or ingenuity not dragged
down to the level of someone who followed the pure class 'paths', didn't put any effort
at all into the character or build, and now feels inadequate.

zwiebelring

04-07-2014, 06:53 AM

So, for you, all melee should be BF? I'd say that's the definition of OP right there.

Thanks for making it crystal clear.

That is not OP. Instead it is the sign of a big flaw in epic elite. Adjust epic elite and you might see less BF melees. Of course there is the endgame crowd of which not few players tend to look at mere stats than flavor and thus create whatever is the most efficient character. And if that happens to be a BF melee then so it is. But right now it seems that every melee is better of being a BF than... a dwarf for example.

achitophel

04-07-2014, 06:59 AM

Remove feat requirement for dragonmarks, because who takes them anyway ?

Give halflings heal spell (using SP), same as bladeforged. Balanced!

zwiebelring

04-07-2014, 07:07 AM

Remove feat requirement for dragonmarks, because who takes them anyway ?
I do. Mark of Passage and Mark of Shadow is very useful.

fmalfeas

04-07-2014, 07:11 AM

Dalsheel

04-07-2014, 07:15 AM

How, by any stretch of the imagination, is that the definition of OP?

When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options.

Clear enough?

Thayion516

04-07-2014, 07:32 AM

When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options.

Clear enough?

Ill repeat myself then and explain to you because you seem to not understand singular syntax inside of a sentence.

"On Other stuff. The BF Reconstruct is one of the few things that keep melee in game IMO. It allows for some survivability as EE mobs punch you in the face for 200-400 hps a hit."

Notice how that is a plural statement. "..one of the few things.." meaning more then one? that "Clear enough" for you?

Versus how you twist it for personal bias. "..only race suitable for a melee build is BF.." a singular inclusive statement.

"When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options."

If your going to pick apart peoples posts (much lazier then actually building a solid case) and try and twist it to suite your own desires, at least keep it in context or back it up with some facts. Deal?

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 08:22 AM

When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options.

Clear enough?

I thoroughly disagree. It's currently the best and most effective self healing option for a melee character.
Other self healing options for other races do exist - i.e. it's not something exclusive to BF characters
though it's more accessible. I don't follow your argument that because something works, and is therefore
preferred, that it makes it 'overpowered'.

Mryal

04-07-2014, 08:30 AM

The only reason why bladeforged reconstruct seems 'OP' is because its more effective than scroll healing, wich is what pretty much what most would be using for self healing.
This is because scroll healing suffers from a flawed, non suitable for DDO system called Concentration checks.
Just make all scroll casts automaticaly quickened and bladeforged is balanced.

Additionaly, there used to be other forms of self healing for melees called Healing ki and Lay on Hands.Healing ki might stil work on pure monks, but consider bringing it back to use character level instead of class level again?As for LOH, like i suggested earlier.Maybe its time to make LOH regenerate uses over time like smithe does.

Timap

04-07-2014, 08:32 AM

A newish topic after all the BF posts, and in keeping with the upcoming changes to Divine Epic destinies.....

The vast majority of sorc savants at EE levels are either Fire or Air. A few are Ice, nearly none are Earth.
Why? Because of synergies with the FvS enhancements giving Fire boosts.

Taking 2-4 levels of FvS for AoV enhancements gives a Fire Savant:
1) Higher Fire/Force Crit %
2) Spell point return on Crit, aka the endless blue bar
3) Stacking boosts to Fire Spellpower via Scourge, up to +30
4) Minimal loss of caster levels despite dropping Sorc levels, due to "Intense Faith" topping up caster levels for Fire spells. Not that it matters, since the max caster levels of most commonly-used spells are low anyway.

The effects above have 2 effects :
1) Sorcs are pushed to Fire and to multiclass FvS. A multiclass Fire Savant has HIGHER spell power/crit profile than a pure, while they give up nearly nothing.
2) Sorcs are pushed to Shiradi ED. Because a higher number of crits means more returning spellpoints, Sorcs are incentivized to cast cheap spells with multiple chances to crit/proc, which is exactly the Shiradi modus operandi.

This trend of helping Fire Sorcs continues with the new Divine Crusader ED, which gives a Fire Savant "Flames of Purity" +30 Fire spell power as a Tier 2 ability. Contrast this with Draconic Incarnation "Draconic Heritage", giving the same +30 spell power, but at Tier 3. So once again, Fire Savant is clearly the superior savant. At this point, Fire Savants can achieve an elemental spellpower of around 40-60 above other savants. At end-game, this is about 10-15% more damage compared to other savants. Not game-breaking perhaps, but if you stack on the other advantages they get from FvS enhancements, (returning SP, boosts to Force crit for Ruin/Boulder Toss etc) it starts to add up.

While this balance issue is not as egregious as monkchers/BF etc., it does contribute towards the homogenization of Sorcs one sees at end-game. If this trend continues, with ever increasing bonuses to Fire for FvS, pretty soon, all Sorcs will be Fire savants and FvS splashed. And its not like the Fire bonuses are that good to FvS anyway. The FvS I meet at EE (and they are becoming very rare and probably need help) tend to be Light/Force casters. They would have been better served with more bonuses to Light and less to Fire.

Just food for thought.

Eth

04-07-2014, 08:43 AM

Investment for BF Healing: One Red Slot Augment, 12 Points in Racial Tree (SLA + Repair Amp), Repair Skill

Investment for Off-Healing Classes (Bard, Pally, Ranger): One Red Augment Slot, 1-2 items for heal amp, 1 feat (emp. heal), Investment in several enhancement trees HealAmp/ Spellpower, Heal Skill

Example?
My ranger has 420 positive spellpower (this includes emp. heal) and my heal amp is:
10% ship
10% x 3 from enhancements
20% item (bracers)
30% item (gloves)

My CSW (at max. CL 15) hits anywhere from 325 to 450. Spellpoint cost: 32 (quicken+emp. heal). Cooldown 3 seconds.

Cocoon makes up for a lot, but costs a twist and is not class dependant.

Vanhooger

04-07-2014, 08:44 AM

Just remove repair spell, not just the bladeforged sla. I dont say we shouldn't have self healing, cos I hate waiting for an healer type, but should be balanced, not a one click full health, that's what healer does. I think that cocoon and scrolling is way more balanced. You can still self heal on EE, but not that easily, need some skill. One click reconstruct doesn't need any skill. Maybe give WF/BF something like cocoon, that's it.

Ancient

04-07-2014, 08:49 AM

If this trend continues, with ever increasing bonuses to Fire for FvS, pretty soon, all Sorcs will be Fire savants and FvS splashed.
I'm seeing more and more pure sorc water draconics.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 08:54 AM

Ancient

04-07-2014, 08:59 AM

You know, I see people complaining so much about Bladeforged, but where were all the complaints about Half-Elf Cleric Dilettante melees with stacks of heal scrolls?

It's just another way of self-healing. People have been obsessing over that for years.

Half-elf got nerfed from orbit as part of the enhancement pass. Enhancement points are now precious and half-elf racials require a huge investment for tiny gains. Heal amp was proxy nerfed by making it cost more enhancement points to obtain, while at the same time the enhancement system lowered the penalty for multiclassing. Half-elf went from being a competitive choice for almost any build to one more in-game t estimate to why people do not trust turbine with the nerf bat.

As an example, prior to the enhancement pass... +5 to saves from pally dil meant something. Now that +5 still costs a big chunk of enhancement points but competes with +18 (or far more) to saves from a pally splash.

I have mixed feelings on bladeforged. I don't play my one bladeforged toon much, so the I'm-only-human part of me notices that some of the people with torches and pitchforks screaming for another (the 5th or 6th) round of shiradi nerfs play bladeforged. That said, I still think nerfs are the wrong way to go on this. Boosting dragonmarks and giving half-elves a make over would be the best way (IMO) to balance races.

Kmnh

04-07-2014, 09:04 AM

My human melee heals itself for 672 with sf pots. Going bladeforged would make it get less healing on a longer cooldown.

My server, Cannith, has a decent EE PUG scene. Most of the issues I see melees having are related to DPS, not defenses. The ones who can kill mobs quickly, do it. The ones who can't, die. All defenses in the game won't help you survive 10 angry orcs attacking you for free for a minute. This is a good thing.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:06 AM

I have mixed feelings on bladeforged. I don't play my one bladeforged toon much, so the I'm-only-human part of me notices that some of the people with torches and pitchforks screaming for another (the 5th or 6th) round of shiradi nerfs play bladeforged. That said, I still think nerfs are the wrong way to go on this.

If the reconstruct SLA is nerfed I think you'll see only BF Shiradi casters as they'll no longer be viable for
melee classes without upsetting healers. You'd certainly struggle to make a reliable melee focussed solo/BYOH
build without reverting to the juggernaut archetype I think.

Dalsheel

04-07-2014, 09:13 AM

Ill repeat myself then and explain to you because you seem to not understand singular syntax inside of a sentence.

"On Other stuff. The BF Reconstruct is one of the few things that keep melee in game IMO. It allows for some survivability as EE mobs punch you in the face for 200-400 hps a hit."

Notice how that is a plural statement. "..one of the few things.." meaning more then one? that "Clear enough" for you?

Versus how you twist it for personal bias. "..only race suitable for a melee build is BF.." a singular inclusive statement.

"When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options."

If your going to pick apart peoples posts (much lazier then actually building a solid case) and try and twist it to suite your own desires, at least keep it in context or back it up with some facts. Deal?

My 1st reaction after reading this was thinking I would scan this thread for all the posts claiming BF is the only viable melee race at the moment and quote them for you. But, hey, you can do this yourself. 79 pages is a lot :)

Reminder: This thread is about game balance.

There is no other race that can self-heal like BF do. This is not just a matter of being able to self-heal, but a matter of how much effort one needs to put in to do that. Specifically:
i. Many melee builds can self heal via scrolls and UMD. Requires investing in UMD, stop attacking to pull out your scrolls, risk of getting hit and failing the scroll due to concentration check.
ii. Many builds twist Cocoon. Requires spending a twist slot, therefore trading some other DPS or defensive ability in its place, has a 12sec cool down timer.
iii. Silver flame potions. Requires you to suffer -10 to all ability scores except CON, -10 to all saving throws and reduced movement speed for 30sec.
iv. Monk FoL finisher. Requires 40ki to charge up and activate, 6sec cool down between each use of FoL.

What does BF trade in order to get their Recon SLA? The way I see it, BF characters need to spend 10ap in their racial tree to unlock Improved PA enhancement, 15ap to unlock Power of the Forge. Recon SLA seems like a great way of meeting the AP-spent requirements. Other than that, nothing else is required.

I am not against BF having such an option, but the cool down needs to be, at least, doubled to make up for the ease of access to it.
I do believe that 12sec cool down will not make any of your builds unplayable. You will still be able to be completely self-sufficient, but you may need to be a little less reckless in your playstyle and maybe even focus a bit on defenses as well, like every other race does. I see this as a good thing.

Ancient

04-07-2014, 09:16 AM

If the reconstruct SLA is nerfed I think you'll see only BF Shiradi casters as they'll no longer be viable for
melee classes without upsetting healers. You'd certainly struggle to make a reliable melee focussed solo/BYOH
build without reverting to the juggernaut archetype I think.
I agree, and it would be a shame... although I'm in the same boat with robot casters... I play a palemaster shiradi, so taking away reconstruct wouldn't phase me for a second. Again, I think that would be the wrong way to go... In fact, it is a great example of why a heavy handed nerf doesn't result in harmonious balance... Take away robot healing, the self-healing just shifts to palemasters and scrolls.

I have a question for you since you have experience with halfling dragonmarks. What would be a balanced way to make that an SLA? If you make it cost mana, then pure fighters and barbs would lose something. Not costing anything would be pretty overpowered. What would be balanced, regenerating uses?

In addition to switching how the dragonmarks work, I agree with the other posters that it is still to pricey to require a feat. The enhancement point cost is already enough of an opportunity cost.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:17 AM

My 1st reaction after reading this was thinking I would scan this thread for all the posts claiming BF is the only viable melee race at the moment and quote them for you. But, hey, you can do this yourself. 79 pages is a lot :)

Reminder: This thread is about game balance.

There is no other race that can self-heal like BF do. This is not just a matter of being able to self-heal, but a matter of how much effort one needs to put in to do that. Specifically:
i. Many melee builds can self heal via scrolls and UMD. Requires investing in UMD, stop attacking to pull out your scrolls, risk of getting hit and failing the scroll due to concentration check.
ii. Many builds twist Cocoon. Requires spending a twist slot, therefore trading some other DPS or defensive ability in its place, has a 12sec cool down timer.
iii. Silver flame potions. Requires you to suffer -10 to all ability scores except CON, -10 to all saving throws and reduced movement speed for 30sec.
iv. Monk FoL finisher. Requires 40ki to charge up and activate, 6sec cool down between each use of FoL.

What does BF trade in order to get their Recon SLA? The way I see it, BF characters need to spend 10ap in their racial tree to unlock Improved PA enhancement, 15ap to unlock Power of the Forge. Recon SLA seems like a great way of meeting the AP-spent requirements. Other than that, nothing else is required.

I am not against BF having such an option, but the cool down needs to be, at least, doubled to make up for the ease of access to it.
I do believe that 12sec cool down will not make any of your builds unplayable. You will still be able to be completely self-sufficient, but you may need to be a little less reckless in your playstyle and maybe even focus a bit on defenses as well, like every other race does. I see this as a good thing.

Other races also start out at 100% healing amp and have more flexibility through items and enhancements to increase that
further. This is a downside which you are ignoring in your evaluations. It's pretty tough to make up -55% healing amp; there
are far fewer sources of repair amp in the game. In any case, I want what I paid for.

Dalsheel

04-07-2014, 09:20 AM

Ancient

04-07-2014, 09:21 AM

What does BF trade in order to get their Recon SLA? The way I see it, BF characters need to spend 10ap in their racial tree to unlock Improved PA enhancement, 15ap to unlock Power of the Forge. Recon SLA seems like a great way of meeting the AP-spent requirements. Other than that, nothing else is required.
I haven't played my bladeforged in a while, but if "nothing else is required" and the recon sla no longer uses spell points then this must be changed back at once!

Or were you just on a soap box overstating the issue again?

Vanhooger

04-07-2014, 09:25 AM

Other races also start out at 100% healing amp and have more flexibility through items and enhancements to increase that
further. This is a downside which you are ignoring in your evaluations. It's pretty tough to make up -55% healing amp; there
are far fewer sources of repair amp in the game. In any case, I want what I paid for.

That's true, but bladeforged are also immune to energy drain/hold, and that is a lot on EE. So they pretty much ignore Will save...and if you go cetus build you ignore Reflex save as well, and you have an unstoppable(quicken) one click full health repair. Looks like it's very balanced.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:25 AM

You start with 100% repair amp, I don't see your issue with healing amp.

Which is why I question your judgement in this discussion.

How many arcane healers are there? (if you said more than 0 then you are wrong).

Without the reconstruct SLA what healing options do BF have?. This is the crux of the issue. If
you remove it or nerf it too hard then you've killed the race (just like WF) as a melee option. Not
to mention the many people who you've upset by baiting and switching.

Ungood

04-07-2014, 09:28 AM

If your going to pick apart peoples posts (much lazier then actually building a solid case) and try and twist it to suite your own desires, at least keep it in context or back it up with some facts. Deal?

This here is the "forums" that kind of polite discussion and case building.. will never happen.

Hawkwier

04-07-2014, 09:32 AM

For my 2p worth…

Seems to me, after wading through loads of the posts here, the there is an essence of balance that needs to be addressed:

Inclusivity Vs exclusivity, for players and their toons.

Happens throughout the game, but arguably aimed at endgame EE where it’s most felt.

I'm going to go on the hypothesis that the devs feel that the balance has shifted far too much toward exclusivity, given we are seeing only a limited amount of viable builds at top-end content, driving this dev-led thread.

I think commercially, it also makes sense not to be too exclusive. Though there does have to be a balance struck to ensure there is a meaningful goal for powerful toons to aim for. ALL powerful toons – not a subset.

In that context, if the devs do want to move toward a more inclusive game, then there are several things they should be looking at, pretty much all covered in some sense above.

I’m a relatively casual player, and have capped out all the EDs on only one toon, my 1st, my barb. I freely accept he'll struggle in EE, which is no biggie for me (It only occasionally P's me off when there’s a bit of gear I can’t get to because I won’t live long enough to ever see it!) as I play to enjoy the game.

That said, it would be nice to feel just exposed/uncomfortable in there (rather than despairing! LOL), without feeling you need to roll a completely new toon to get to that. I do think that it’s disappointing to spend so much time getting a toon to 28, only to find they can’t really play effectively – I’m sure many others will also feel like that.

The survey indicates where the perceived weaker classes lie, and there have been numerous threads on how to fix Barbs, Pally's, etc., and the devs only need look at those to get a sense of what needs to be done. I won’t bore folks with regurgitation of those details here, but clearly there are number of areas DR, healing pots, that just haven’t’ kept pace with power creep we’ve experienced over time, and have impacted on some classes more than others, reducing that inclusivity balance.

I will say this though: A while ago I dropped a couple of barb levels for 1 Ranger & 1 Fighter, specifically to pick up Fury-shots. To make me change back, there either needs to be big nerf to ranged fury - which would be disappointing on a build that struggles survivability-wise in any case (not just Monkchers that use this), OR, something that makes the pure capstone Vs multiclassing opportunity-cost, a worthwhile consideration - now to compete with Fury-shot, we are probably talking something like an added “Ultimate Cleave” attack equivalent to, say, Lay Waste.

I only use this specific above as an example of the consideration – i.e. 1 potential nerf Vs 1 potential buff choice - the devs probably need to make. These are the kinds of choices facing devs across all the capstones if they want to make pure classes considered as an option Vs multi-classing.

The other thing that needs to happen to rebalance things, inclusivity-wise, is for EE content to be made easier in terms of comparative difficulty to EN/EH/EE: Mob damage, HP, and save increments, should be on a linear 1:+2:+3, or at least exponential 1:+2:+4 scale, more than that is just lazy development IMO. That change needs to happen in conjunction with any nerf/buff class choices.

Finally, in a separate but related consideration, the solo Vs group balance issue needs to be addressed. There should be consideration given to whether the game should continue to promote solo play at the expense of team interaction and inter-reliability. I’d suggest though that is left to later in the day, as rebalancing the other considerations will evolve a different toon landscape against which any such considerations can then be made.

Of course, if my hypothesis is wrong, and there is no intent to move toward increasing inclusivity at the expense of exclusivity, then don’t change anything.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:33 AM

That's true, but bladeforged are also immune to energy drain/hold, and that is a lot on EE. So they pretty much ignore Will save...and if you go cetus build you ignore Reflex save as well, and you have an unstoppable(quicken) one click full health repair. Looks like it's very balanced.

Immunity to energy drain is achievable by any race either through ED, enhancements or itemization. Both robot races need to be
bought (if you're premium), BF need to be bought by everyone. They should have some advantages over FTP races.
WF used to be immune to poison and disease too...

Immunity to being held is also available via FoM - spell, item, clickie, enhancements.

So essentially we're just talking about some convenience over FTP races.

The original Cetus build was human. The reflex save point has absolutely nothing to do with BF at all unless you wanted to
highlight their -2 to starting dex?. BF melee works because of the SLA; hit it too hard and it doesn't work at all.

My SLA doesn't repair me to full unless I crit.

Eth

04-07-2014, 09:36 AM

What would your ranger CSW hit for if the race was BF?
I just put the numbers out there. Draw your own conclusions.

If I went BF I wouldn't bother with CSW if that isn't obvious enough for you and I would spend my free AP, item slots and feats for more DPS.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:40 AM

I just put the numbers out there. Draw your own conclusions.

If I went BF I wouldn't bother with CSW if that isn't obvious enough for you and I would spend my free AP, item slots and feats for more DPS.

Not sure what the hostility is for? - unless I've misunderstood something?

My entire point is that nobody would bother with CSW in this scenario - it's just too hard to make
it effective. If you didn't have access to a repair SLA would you even consider going BF on a melee
centric character?

Dalsheel

04-07-2014, 09:41 AM

Without the reconstruct SLA what healing options do BF have?. This is the crux of the issue. If
you remove it or nerf it too hard then you've killed the race (just like WF) as a melee option. Not
to mention the many people who you've upset by bating and switching.

You won't find any post of mine saying remove it or make it useless

Would you consider changing it to 12sec cool down as being "too hard nerf"?
I certainly don't, and the reasoning behind my opinion is in my previous post.

Vanhooger

04-07-2014, 09:45 AM

Immunity to energy drain is achievable by any race either through ED, enhancements or itemization. Both robot races need to be
bought (if you're premium), BF need to be bought by everyone. They should have some advantages over FTP races.
WF used to be immune to poison and disease too...

Immunity to being held is also available via FoM - spell, item, clickie, enhancements.

So essentially we're just talking about some convenience over FTP races.

The original Cetus build was human. The reflex save point has absolutely nothing to do with BF at all unless you wanted to
highlight their -2 to starting dex?. BF melee works because of the SLA; hit it too hard and it doesn't work at all.

My SLA doesn't repair me to full unless I crit.

I understand your point, they should have some advantage, but this way is very unbalanced. It's also true you can get same immunity on other races, but it's not the same as having them all the time and you don't have to worry about em, or use some precious equip slot to have them, like von boots. Recon sla if you're maxing out repair and slot a 138 repair augment with repair system Enhancements t3, will completely heal you unless you have 1k hit points or more. I was pointing out the Cetus build, cos if you doing it in the right way with a bunch of PL, it's pretty much unkillable on most of the content. This thread is about balance so....

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:48 AM

You won't find any post of mine saying remove it or make it useless

Useless is highly subjective.

Would you consider changing it to 12sec cool down as being "too hard nerf"?

Yes.

Eth

04-07-2014, 09:51 AM

Not sure what the hostility is for? - unless I've misunderstood something?

My entire point is that nobody would bother with CSW in this scenario - it's just too hard to make
it effective. If you didn't have access to a repair SLA would you even consider going BF on a melee
centric character?

It's not about removing it but balancing it. See my example.
My fleshie character has to make a much bigger investment to get a more expensive and less effective healing spell.

This is not balanced.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:51 AM

I understand your point, they should have some advantage, but this way is very unbalanced. It's also true you can get same immunity on other races, but it's not the same as having them all the time and you don't have to worry about em, or use some precious equip slot to have them, like von boots. Recon sla if you're maxing out repair and slot a 138 repair augment with repair system Enhancements t3, will completely heal you unless you have 1k hit points or more. I was pointing out the Cetus build, cos if you doing it in the right way with a bunch of PL, it's pretty much unkillable on most of the content. This thread is about balance so....

Cetus is indeed a powerful build as is Zeus. Primarily because of the self-healing. If you take that away,
or nerf it so it's sub-optimal will they remain as powerful? Personally, I don't think so.

I just think it's pretty shady to sell the race for as long as they have then suddenly decide the Reconstruct
SLA is OP.

zwiebelring

04-07-2014, 09:54 AM

My 1st reaction after reading this was thinking I would scan this thread for all the posts claiming BF is the only viable melee race at the moment and quote them for you. But, hey, you can do this yourself. 79 pages is a lot :)

Reminder: This thread is about game balance.

There is no other race that can self-heal like BF do. This is not just a matter of being able to self-heal, but a matter of how much effort one needs to put in to do that. Specifically:
i. Many melee builds can self heal via scrolls and UMD. Requires investing in UMD, stop attacking to pull out your scrolls, risk of getting hit and failing the scroll due to concentration check.
ii. Many builds twist Cocoon. Requires spending a twist slot, therefore trading some other DPS or defensive ability in its place, has a 12sec cool down timer.
iii. Silver flame potions. Requires you to suffer -10 to all ability scores except CON, -10 to all saving throws and reduced movement speed for 30sec.
iv. Monk FoL finisher. Requires 40ki to charge up and activate, 6sec cool down between each use of FoL.

What does BF trade in order to get their Recon SLA? The way I see it, BF characters need to spend 10ap in their racial tree to unlock Improved PA enhancement, 15ap to unlock Power of the Forge. Recon SLA seems like a great way of meeting the AP-spent requirements. Other than that, nothing else is required.

I am not against BF having such an option, but the cool down needs to be, at least, doubled to make up for the ease of access to it.
I do believe that 12sec cool down will not make any of your builds unplayable. You will still be able to be completely self-sufficient, but you may need to be a little less reckless in your playstyle and maybe even focus a bit on defenses as well, like every other race does. I see this as a good thing.
Nerf epic elite mob stats so the other options besides recon SLA become viable again, as in the time you need to scroll heal or heal over time is sufficient enough to keep your Ftr or Bar alive while brawling away. Right now, recon SLA is the only good option since it takes no time. Either destroy the pay to play race for any build besides Juggernaut or caster or make regular self healing options more viable.

But narrowing down all balance issues to the BF race is wrong. It is not only one factor to be adjusted. What about destinies? Before epic destinies you had a balance, since lvl. 20 was end of the road, so the balance gap had a restriction. With destinies that gap opened up more. Reconstruct fixes this a littlebit but narrows your endgame choices too much. The problem is not Reconstruct alone. Everybody, who claimed more self sufficiency by players for endgame payed its part the current state of the game.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 09:56 AM

It's not about removing it but balancing it. See my example.
My fleshie character has to make a much bigger investment to get a more expensive and less effective healing spell.

This is not balanced.

Right. But he can also be healed effectively by others. BF cannot. This is one the major
points of what I'm arguing. BF have to have self healing this good because there isn't
any other option currently - no arcane is going to heal you and if you think it's a challenge
getting healing amp on a fleshie, what would it be like on a BF?.

In any case, how many TP does an Elven Ranger (for example) cost?

I didn't decide to sell PTW races, Turbine did. It should be no surprise that people will
be angry if these abilities are changed retroactively. Of course after sales have probably
slowed a little...

What would you propose as an alternative?

Eth

04-07-2014, 10:02 AM

Right. But he can also be healed effectively by others. BF cannot.
Really? Because current metagame is everybody on a toaster and repair each other.

What would you propose as an alternative?

Max CL 10 and more repair amp equip + feats that increase repair.

Vanhooger

04-07-2014, 10:08 AM

Right. But he can also be healed effectively by others. BF cannot. This is one the major
points of what I'm arguing. BF have to have self healing this good because there isn't
any other option currently - no arcane is going to heal you and if you think it's a challenge
getting healing amp on a fleshie, what would it be like on a BF?.

In any case, how many TP does an Elven Ranger (for example) cost?

I didn't decide to sell PTW races, Turbine did. It should be no surprise that people will
be angry if these abilities are changed retroactively. Of course after sales have probably
slowed a little...

What would you propose as an alternative?

Completely agree with that.. they can't change recon SLA, when people is spending real money to get it...it's turbine fault. The only way is give other classes better self healing at lower cost....

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 10:10 AM

Really? Because current metagame is everybody on a toaster and repair each other.

OK, I think I understand your motivation now.

Max CL 10 and more repair amp equip + feats that increase repair.

Oh right, so same considerations as fleshy. And still ignoring the downsides to
healing from positive energy and the fact that the race cost TP.

No thanks; BF sorcerer from now on.

Eth

04-07-2014, 10:16 AM

OK, I think I understand your motivation now.

I have the BF race and BF toons...

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 10:29 AM

I have the BF race and BF toons...

That wasn't what I meant, it was actually a genuine comment. I've seen a youtube vid of your ranger
build (awesome build btw) and I appreciate that you're a good player. I'm just not sure about the example
you gave. It seems to me that the current metagame you speak about is the most efficient - it's for
synergistic builds with excellent self healing (no monkchers or AA's in your current metagame?). Looking
at the effects of nerfing the reconstruct SLA:

1) If you nerf it too hard, the metagame will change to the next most efficient thing. BF will no longer
be a practical choice for a self sufficient melee. Given the intrinsic penalties to being a non-self
sufficient melee, they won't be a viable melee race at all. Just like WF.

2) If you don't nerf it hard enough then nothing changes except you irritate people by reducing their
efficiency.

Personally, I'd rather all self healing options were buffed and that more offensive options were given
to divine classes.

Eth

04-07-2014, 10:38 AM

Personally, I'd rather all self healing options were buffed and that more offensive options were given
to divine classes.

Well, good point.

I've been asking for more heal amp. options long enough, but just take a look at all the last new item releases.
Absolutely nothing.
All there is are grandfathered bracers and s****y gloves from U14.

They could also remove max. CL for the cure spells.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 10:59 AM

Well, good point.

I've been asking for more heal amp. options long enough, but just take a look at all the last new item releases.
Absolutely nothing.
All there is are grandfathered bracers and s****y gloves from U14.

Agree. If it was less of a pain to 'slot' (giving them a clue here) healing amp then I think this
discussion would be less visceral. It should be available through crafting and through the current
augment system.

They could also remove max. CL for the cure spells.

Honestly, after bashing up against this brick wall for years on the arcane front, I don't
think they know how.

Kalimah

04-07-2014, 12:06 PM

I am not going to get in to the specific details about this destiny, or that OP feat or monk splashing etc. because there are going to be many more people after my post with more to say about how everything OP should be nerfed and all the FotM builds are going to get what they have coming to them. Instead, Varg, I want to point out to you what I feel is the most important issue regarding this topic... all of these things that are overpowered, that people gravitate to are some of THE MOST FUN abilities and play styles in the game.

Excellent post Roland- why do you think they are the FOTM? Because people WANT TO PLAY THAT. Why give us what we want, let us spend our time and resources to make it, then decide its not allowed. Bad bad bad policy.

Kalimah

04-07-2014, 12:07 PM

Kalimah

04-07-2014, 12:10 PM

It's not about removing it but balancing it. See my example.
My fleshie character has to make a much bigger investment to get a more expensive and less effective healing spell.

This is not balanced.

Hey my fleshy monk paly human LAUGHS at the reconstruct discussion for BF melee. LAUGHS AT IT.

Fleshies have WAY more tools to heal.

knockcocker

04-07-2014, 12:20 PM

Yeah great, do away with all the bladeforged melee's. Good call.

Err, yeah. That was precisely my point. I don't want this to happen...

avepepix

04-07-2014, 12:53 PM

YUGWEN

04-07-2014, 01:13 PM

I'd like to see little or no nerfing to dps for any class. As it is monsters have tons of hp to plow through and mobs are sufficiently large to overwhelm. I'd like to see more attention to the tiny splash and I am in agreement with the other posters who have mentioned classes are a little too front loaded. Adding a new gear item or boss that requires chaotic damage or classes could help limit the monk splash. A cloak of Anarchy that gives multiple negative levels and other penalties to lawful classes but has valuable play value for instance could tip the balance for powerbuilding players.

My biggest complaints in DDO play value is in trapping and splash skills. It would be cool if more quests had features that required an often ignored skill to get some extra bonus out of like listen or haggle. I'd like to see a penalty based on quest level versus trapper class level to stop the two splash trapping until end game. It is a logical change for play. Someone that has dedicated their development to making or breaking traps is going to be better at it than someone that dabbles a little. A -1 for one or -1 for two levels difference would instantly add value back to trappers. A two splash wiz would face a -18 to -9 at level 20 but would be able to trap for most of the lower levels with proper gear.

Another trapper buff for trappers would be to slightly increase the observation bonus for searching out secrets but not counting DM Vision, True Seeing, and Detect Secret Doors in the equation. This would allow those things to work as before so people can finish quests as they used to, but characters with a high search score would have value too.

Trapper balance wish list item 3 would be allowing set traps to last a few more seconds before going off. It takes time and strategy to set traps and most groups won't wait. It is more logical for a dedicated trapper to be able to set a nasty surprise and lure enemies into it as monsters do it all the time already. It is also very resource intensive to build traps so that is a controller on OP on top of players not willing to wait in the first place.

I am still upset about the change to WOTB. So I'm hoping any nerfing is kept to a minimum. People will be drawn to specific classes based on play value not on DPS alone. I have 30+ characters across a wide range of classes. If my monk or savant or healers get changed it will change the enjoyment I get out of playing them.

Most importantly- Please keep in mind that there is a ton of competition out there trying to pull players from DDO. I have not met a single player in DDO that said "if X class is NOT nerfed I'm leaving DDO!" in all my years here. I have watched multiple players leave, VIPs included, after their favorite class was massively changed not just for nerfing. It is getting more and more difficult to fill groups and raids even the ones that used to fill in seconds after posting are being shortmanned. As you add level cap and quests this increases exponentially so every single lost player really is a big deal not just for Turbine's bottom line but for every player in DDO.

Grimlock

04-07-2014, 01:19 PM

For the classes to be more well balanced here can be some points.

-Add +20 to capstone (+20 to dice roll, +20 to dc)
-Add +10 to reach lvl 20 multiclass (+10 to dice roll +10 to dc)
-Add more feats. Not necesary the same that exist in D&D 3.5, they can create more. With good feats, every class can have a good sinergy with every class.
-Modify the bard enhacement tree

Hey at least Turbine fixed the music songs that work with constructs, undead, etc the way they used to work! Progress is progress.

Now if Bards could give a song of evasion that would be awesome. They certainly do need an enhancement rework.

Seikojin

04-07-2014, 01:31 PM

Epic Destinies.

These bad boys are the final tweak you can make to your class to fill the time going from level 20-cap. They offer additional boosting and power to allow you to live that epic tale.

Currently there are three (well going to be) destinies in each of four spheres. Each sphere is related tot he type of destiny contained.

One of the biggest benefits is twisting abilities from other destinies into your current one with twists of fate.

Also of note: there is 1 destiny per class, save artificer.

================================================== =
Arcane: These deal with arcane magics, or should.

Draconic Incarnation: Dps casing. Primary for Sorcerers.
The big push here is sla dps and a variety of defensive buffs in the form of natural armor and saves. I see saves for abilities being half level, perhaps full level will make these viable in ee (if base class dc's have no boost).

Fatesinger: Utility casting. Primary for Bards.
The echoes should boost songs and be like an additional twist of fate, allowing you to select a tier 1-X (where x is less than or equal to that particular echo's tier). Core tiers should add 10 sonic spell power. O Fortuna should increase song regen (or provide it). Allure should also raise your enchant DC's. Spider queen music should allow full fascinate to all creatures and allow suggestion. Turn the tide should affect bosses. Tier 3 of each song should have a chance to proc for free on melee, ranged vorpals (50%) and spell crits (10%). Or add it to the core abilities on top of their bonuses. Making it a reason to main the destiny. Perhaps add a ac/dodge/prr/dr buff in this area as well.

Magister: Flexible casting (dc, utility, dps). Primary for Wizards.
Warding should double the AC boost. Unearthly reactions should also add to tumble 3/6/9. Arcane studies should raise your spell dc's by 1 per arcane study you have, or have spellsurge also proccable on spell crit; once every 60 seconds. It would be nice if wards timers would refresh 1 second per spell you cast within them.

================================================== ==
Divine: These deal with divine magics, or should.

Divine Crusader (lam only): Melee divine. Primary for Cleric.
Hasn't seen live play yet. But does a nice job and is fairly strong.

Exalted Angel: Healing and DC casting. Primary for Favored Soul.
This tree is getting a makeover.

Unyielding Sentinal: Defensive tanking. Primary for Paladin.
This tree is getting a makeover.

================================================== ==
Martial: These deal with melee combat, or should.

Grandmaster of Flowers: Unarmed combat. Primary for Monks.
Lily Petal, Orchid Blossom, and Drifting Lotus damage should be affected by spellpower (based on stances element) or concentration. Everything else is solid.

Legendary Dreadnought: Heavy weapon combat. Primary for Fighters.
Fix broken abilities or make them a proc on hit by (for defensive ones). Make cleaves reset on vorpals of cleave/great cleave. Have critical damage increase threat multiplier by 1 or range by 1 at tier 3. Weapon based attack should cumulate (ie, on a vorpal they would do their 100 point+surge/boost/stun + 10d100 fire, electrical, or sonic damage (should be aoe too); 30 second cool down. This destiny needs some defensive options to boost ac/prr/dr/dodge. Like every core raises dex cap, dodge cap, +2-4 prr, +1-3 ac, and dr 2/-.

Shadowdancer: Light weapon combat. Primary for Rogues.
Most of the tree is fine. Raise dc's of abilities, change stealthy from assassinate to all rogue DC's and DC's of the shadowdancer tree. Lithe should also increase max dodge and dodge by the same as well. Attack DCs should be 10-20+stat+character level.
================================================== ==
Primal: These deal with specialty/mix classes, or should.

Fury of the Wild: Rage. Primary is Barbarians.
Should offer 20 hp per level/tier/rank, making it 120 cap instead of 100. Boulder toss should have a crit chance and multiplier since they took it away from spellpower. Adrenaline overload should proc a primal scream on vorpal (must have primal scream). Acute instinct should add to dodge (1/2/3) as well. DR should add 4/8/12 PRR and if barb, an additional 3/6/9 DR/- stacking. Insult should only drop ac by 5.

Primal Avatar: Pet and utility abilities. Primary is Druid.
Should provide caster levels to artificer and bard. All the melee offensive things should include melee weapons of any kind. This way it blocks ranged, but allows thf as well as twf. Tsunami should be a death effect to oozes, an undead should be immune to the cold. Paired parry should be 5% ac. Spirit boon should be +4 to each stat it provides.

Shidari Champion: Ranged. Primary is Ranger.
Should provide caster levels to artificer and bard. The random procs should be altered based on diplo skill? Maybe have a max cap of 10% chance based on diplo, with a base of 4. So 4% + 1% per 10 points of diplomacy; making a 30 diplomacy the same as current proc rates, and 40 diplo 8% and so on.

Starla70

04-07-2014, 01:36 PM

Before I start my hours long trek into this thread, I would suggest that a mass email of the survey be sent at least to the VIP's. I think you would get a better overall reaction, then just here. Many players just do not want to wade through all the arguments to get to the solid information. It can be very frustrating to those who want to be playing the game more then reading. I know for my guild I was asked to be the herald of the forums to being back the information to them, and I pass along what the players would like to add.

Kalimah

04-07-2014, 01:46 PM

Err, yeah. That was precisely my point. I don't want this to happen...

Yeah i was agreeing with you there, just didnt do a good job of quoting what I meant to quote :)

Starla70

04-07-2014, 04:46 PM

Pure class vs multi classed is seriously out of wack. I agree a pure class should be more powerful and have the benefit of the more powerful feats/spells. It does seem that splash this, splash that is more sued now then in the past, and the benefits are not as limiting as they once were. I think that is the reason they are so popular. Out of my guilds 40 players, I think there are only 3 that are strictly once class players now. In class D&D, the benefits of multi-classing often did not justify the step. In DDO there seems to be little against it, and far more benefits.
More and more players being sure their toons are self healing, has really hurt the class of cleric. I personally think the hirelings are not about useless, the tend to be too busy fighting even if put on passive to heal anyone, or they are busy standing in the lava and not healing themselves. We have several that really like playing clerics. Each update and patch they get more and more frustrated. We have lost 5 players out of the game entirely because of these changes, and each was a paying player. One came back after a year absence this weekend, looked at the changes and Epics and told us he is done and left. I personally do not like soloing. I like the team play and working as a group. Many of the changes from like update 17 up have hurt that. It is the game balance, like getting to finally play epics, to the common monsters having 3,000+ hit points and your toon maybe 700. The caster being able to cast through doors at you, but you not being able to cast at a party mate over a box, that is only knee high.
I like ranger/rogues. With the changes to ranger and rogue, they are a solid choice. The ranger spells are rather weak, their summoning almost useless, especially in Epic levels, so the rogue adds a stronger defense for them. I was talking to the guild leader of a rouge guild and all of his 7 toons that are rouges have ranger splashes in them.

Honestly, look at the epic normal/hard/elite balance before looking at character balance. As long as the elite numbers stay as insane as they are while you nerf players, it will be all hell breaks lose.
Fix the quests then you have a much better chance of getting class balance in line without too much tears, IMO anyways.
I totally agree with this. There are many Epics that those of us who like to run with parties have serious issues with on elite. (Caught in the web comes to mind). The balance in those is totally off. There are epics toons with under 1000 hp facing groups who each monster has over 10,000 xp and can do easily 600 hp damage each hit. That is a serious case of being off balance.
I love the question “Why are characters in pajamas the best tanks?” Just ponder that a minute. I do not have a monk or a monk splash. My druid came with it, I got rid of is quickly. My cleric was forced into Grand Master of flowers epic which was a total waste of time and xp. I do know players who love monk and everything they play is one or splash. I do not see why they should be the only good tank. Highly illogical!

[QUOTE=FranOhmsford;5290176]
This Survey is beyond a Joke!
Rogues, Clerics, Paladins, Barbarians, Druids and Tempest Rangers are currently underpowered!
-Rogues have been pigeon-holed thanks to the enhancement revamp into specific builds and weapons - They've also had a Nerf to the available Trap Scores from Enhancements {Artis have been hit hard by this too!}. {{Which means there are wasted points again for these classes.}}
- Clerics - You seem to be under the mistaken impression that these are OP and insist on keeping them down at every opportunity! {{Totally agree with this. It seems the DEV’s are trying to totally kill this class in Epics as well.}}
- Paladins - You only need to look at the truly ridiculous requirement of 83 AP to max out Sacred Defender {Not even Possible!} and the squeezing together of HotD & KotC which keeps both at much lower power levels than Kensai for example! {{This is why I have one paladin only and it has taken me 3 years to get her to 23rd level}}
-Tempest - Still basically requires Multiclassing - Why won't you let Rangers go Pure? ((Their spell lists and summons are the weakest in the game. Why is this so badly nerfed?}}
Archmage needs a serious boost to bring it on par with PM or WF and Making us take Zombie Form is NOT going to do it! {{I get that sorcs are supposedly better, but on my 3rd wizard life and it is finally fun, but still pretty weak.}}
The power of the Monk Splash is off the scale! Pure Monk isn't as OP as people have been making out and has blindsided you away from the Monk Splash! Monkcher especially is an issue atm. {{This does need work}}
Bards when played by those who know how to play them are Supreme and really don't need buffing!
However they're also NOT in any need of a Nerf!
Pure Artificers are fantastic up to around Lvl 13-15 then are overtaken by pretty much every other class! {The Juggernaut build cannot be used as a stick to beat Artis with!}. I had 3, with the changes now down to 1. The nerfs made it just not worth playing anymore. Way too front loaded BUT any Nerf at Low Levels would be a bad idea -
Artis really need buffing at higher levels!
Finally to Favored Souls - As everyone here knows I have an antipathy towards this class however I'll try to stay objective:
1. The Enhancement Pass was a MASSIVE Nerf to FavSouls! {Objective enough for y'all?}
2. Warforged FvS has become much less popular since but is to my mind still the best build for said class - Greatsword Melee and Self Healing is Pretty Safe!
FvS are also in no way expected to Heal by anyone anymore as Clerics and Druids are both far better at this and if you have a FvS and a Bard in your Raid you'd probably be better off asking the Bard if he/she was OK with being Main Healer! {{Which is why the question are you a healing favored soul is so needed to be asked in raids.}}
3. The Caster FvS seems to have fallen by the wayside {probably because of a lack of DC and Spell Pen Boosts for Elite content}.
4. Exalted Angel and Unyielding Sentinel are far too focused for a Jack of all trades Class! {{Trust me they just killed this one!}}
Oh I forgot Fighter didn't I - Well this brings me to my final point and the biggest issue in Class Balance in DDO:

Feats my fighters have long since been changed to anything else!
Clerics, FavSouls, Sorcs, Bards, Barbarians, Paladins - These classes are all in desperate need of more Feats! They seriously are overlooked and under powered now.
Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus Disable Device should NOT be laughed at as Rogue or Arti Feats! {Skill Focus Search on the other hand has become almost mandatory thanks to the recent DC Boosts to that requirement!}.
And No I don't count feats taken in Epic Levels as a Boost - I still only count up to Lvl 20 when talking about Heroic Feats!
It might help if you merged some feats rather than giving out extra slots though - For example:
Skill Focus Open Lock/Skill Focus Disable Device/Nimble Fingers = ONE Feat for +5 to Open Locks and Disable Device!
Spell Penetration and Spell Focus
Empower and Empower Healing
Improved Turning and Extra Turning
And it would definitely help if Paladins got a few Free Feats at high enough levels so that they don't become an Insta-Splash class - For Example:
Tower Shield Proficiency - Lvl 1 Exotic Wpn Prof: Bastard Sword - Lvl 3
Shield Mastery - Lvl 5 Combat Expertise - Lvl 7
Improved Trip - Lvl 10 Improved Shield Mastery - Lvl 13
Improved Sunder - Lvl 16
Great overall post by the way. I did shorten in but also added my thoughts on it. I think you hit most of the points I have at this point! will be continued when I move on through the 78 pages here to read!

Teh_Troll

04-07-2014, 04:49 PM

So . . .

1. Stronger Capstones.

2. Nerf Monks.

Got it.

Ebondevil

04-07-2014, 05:05 PM

Add Rings of Evasion, Cut out one of the better reasons to splash Monk/Rogue

Also remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.

Grimlock

04-07-2014, 05:13 PM

Add Rings of Evasion, Cut out one of the better reasons to splash Monk/Rogue

Also remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

Thayion516

04-07-2014, 05:19 PM

Qhualor

04-07-2014, 05:39 PM

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

an evasion item would become one of the most sought after and most valuable item in the game. people would play monks for the flavor and would alter the way people build multi class characters. it would be the total opposite of the intention of this thread.

Starla70

04-07-2014, 05:55 PM

If you can not balance it right then do not do it at all.

Balancing it easy by nerfing just makes people leave. That has always been true and you guys have driven so many players over the years away that I have played with it is just silly. ((Our guild has lost countless to this alone))

You guys do not get what is really good and what is not. Example, the recent colors of the queen change. Double Rainbow/Colors IS NOT what makes the builds in shiradi great nor would a foolish change that makes the ability not only worse, but downright griefing to use in parties the way to address it if it was.

That is why you need to buff not nerf. You buff something no one uses and you get someone to use it maybe. It is much less dangerous and much easier to slowly increase the power of and see the results. (For nerfs they are too often binary like the colors change...you use it and you are now griefing your party/playing a bad build/just plain destroys build)

Suggestions for BUFFS to help the game overall...

* Paladin class needs more DPS. It is behind the 8-ball. Not just pure pali, but through the level range.
* Real self healing outside of twists should be reasonable for any build which invests. Barb rage if it prevents these needs to be WAY MORE POWERFUL then it is now.
* Pile of hit point toons should have that option OR dps. Now they often have only that option. Look into that wherever it comes up (US/comparative trees for classes/cost of these things in build resources)..I am talking the well over a 1000 HP toons not the well built dps plus decent HP toons.
* Less mobs who kill clerics who do not gain agro otherwise. Seriously, this is a critical issue for people who USED TO play these types of toons and those who wanted them around. ((so true))
* Restore the forum settings to a state where people are not typing black on a grey background...seriously.
* Stop wasting time on marginal abilities like boulder toss and double rainbow and addressing them like they are OP. Buff the STUPID GIMPED ABILIITES that are everywhere in destinies and enhancements.
* MORE DPS for melee outside of the top 2 destinies for melee DPS.
* More DPS for ranged outside of shiradi and Fury.
* More DPS for casters outside of shiradi and draconic.
* More nasty attacks for mobs to use on enemies which gain their agro in EE. Stuff like feeblemind really really hurts in the new content when you are hit with it. That is a good example of a nasty attack for a mob to use. Always attach things which have to overcome for these attacks to land...no more no save no nothing abilities. Something like a magical net that some EE sahagin throw in AoE and grants a reflex save/to hit roll to land. There should be mobs which are better at taking on casters (like the feeblemind guys mentioned before), mobs which are better at taking out ranged (tendon slice really does suck on a ranged toon when it hits you, but more creative less no save garbage is better), and mobs which are better at taking on melee (lots of mobs in game like that now). So really more focus on the first two is needed. What is NOT needed is more mobs who take out people who have no agro. They are not really as big of a threat or help in current DDO play...this is not shroud release time after all.
* Make more abilities work on all types of combat (ranged/melee/unarmed/thrown) and work equally. It is easier to balance without having to put in so many speciality abilities to get players to play really bad options (like ranged used to be and STILL IS if you are not built right and in the right destiny).

Some really good points here. There are some basic things that are needed overall before you start trying to nerf more classes. Some classes have been nerfed so much, it is amazing anyone plays them at all. Cleric was not mentioned here, but it was my preferred class at one time. Now, not so much.

Seikojin

04-07-2014, 05:59 PM

Add Rings of Evasion, Cut out one of the better reasons to splash Monk/Rogue

Also remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.

And augments. Colorless ones.

Starla70

04-07-2014, 06:31 PM

I think it would work wonders for you as developers to roll up some well geared characters, make a balanced party of pure, core classes (fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue. Throw in a ranger and druid to fill out the party), and try to complete some epic elite wheloon or stormhorns. I think you would get a lot of insight from that experience, both as a group and the limitations of your individual characters. You'd be able to make a lot of informed decisions regarding balance with that perspective.

If your intention was to make epic elite so hard that only a small percentage of the player base will even try it, then you have succeeded. I don't like to play it, and none of my friends do. Seems odd to cater to such a small portion of your paying customers. I feel like a fairly knowledgeable, competent player, but I get sick of dying over and over really quickly because I happen to like playing dwarves with axes.

Awesome post!!!

I think the dev's need to come on and play with random parties more. See what many of us are dealing with. No special names on their toons, just be one of the gang. When I see the Dev's on it is well announced and they are known to be who they are, people act differently around them, or just want something from them. Also not the best of every weapon or item, as it takes us farming for days or weeks to get items, which in itself can very frustrating. (I ran 3 shrouds this weekend on different toons and got not one shard or any kind in my pulls)

Reading through this from page one, to page 10 now I think, I have been hit with so many different points of view.

- how about say 4 more enhancement points for pure builds? make them more playable
- I like the idea that the best benefits from a class do not come into play by level 2.
- many people do not take the time away from their game play to read through the forums, they came to play and pay to play, not just read.
- why not reach out to those playing epics on the classes you are concerned with? I would think DM's know who is on, tell them ask their thoughts, drop in to parties and talk to the ones playing.
- use emails to the VIPS more ask their opinions

Cetus

04-07-2014, 07:39 PM

The original Cetus build was human.

Actually, the original cetus was a pure fighter too.

=D

Ungood

04-07-2014, 07:52 PM

remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.

You know.. this is a good idea! They should also code it so that epic levels count as caster levels for all spells and abilities.

Uska

04-07-2014, 08:47 PM

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

No they don't no GM I ever knew ever allowed that item and I have known and met a lot of GM's it was a broken item in pnp

Powerhungry

04-08-2014, 01:50 AM

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

An evasion item would be fairly useless to most of the melee characters that need it since evasion does not work in medium or heavy armor.

oradafu

04-08-2014, 02:18 AM

You know.. this is a good idea! They should also code it so that epic levels count as caster levels for all spells and abilities.

Epic levels should count towards all class abilities and other stuff, not just casters. For example, Holy Retribution is currently a Will save of (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) when it should be (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Epic level).

I argued back in MOTU beta for this, but the argument against that was that EDs were suppose to balance it out. I again argued for increases for class levels when Shadowfail beta with the 3 Epic levels were added and the new Enhancements were being hashed out. By the end of the year, players will have 10 Epic levels in which class abilities don't increase at all.

An evasion item would be fairly useless to most of the melee characters that need it since evasion does not work in medium or heavy armor.

Pretty much.

By not addressing Medium and Heavy Armor but adding an Evasion item, the shift in power would probably go from Monkachers to Shiradi Wizards/Sorc in Light Armor with permanent Tensers for full BAB.

Ungood

04-08-2014, 08:18 AM

Ungood

04-08-2014, 08:24 AM

Grimlock

04-08-2014, 08:40 AM

An evasion item would be fairly useless to most of the melee characters that need it since evasion does not work in medium or heavy armor.

Max DPS builds do not use full plate. They use robes. Why? Because AC is useless with 70% dodge and 10 stacks of blitz going. Evasion would mean a decrease in Monk levels - which is overly saturated in this game.

Grimlock

04-08-2014, 08:48 AM

an evasion item would become one of the most sought after and most valuable item in the game. people would play monks for the flavor and would alter the way people build multi class characters. it would be the total opposite of the intention of this thread.

It should be a melee capstone ability. I would settle for an Epic tier 5 martial sphere destiny enhancement. The amount of Monks in the game is silly. Turbine should recognize this and either fix multi-classing, or rework enhancements. An in-game level 30 raid item that granted evasion would hardly be game breaking. This is the final year for a level cap and they might as well add it.

Colorless augment. 195 Turbine Points. Go ahead and make Improved Evasion as a Green for 495 Turbine Points.

redspecter23

04-08-2014, 09:08 AM

I don't think the time is right for an evasion item currently. When we finally get a metagame shift that sees medium and heavy armor not only playable but preferred to robes and outfits, that will be when Turbine adds an evasion item. When we get to a point where rangers and rogues are actually seriously contemplating putting on heavy armor for the benefit it provides at the cost of their evasion, the metagame shift is complete. Right now any "good" melee already has evasion because of how awesome monk splash is and how horrible heavier armor is in general. Any evasion item added right now would basically just read "class required: wizard/sorcerer/bard". You wouldn't be helping melee close any gaps and you'd just be pushing pure casters further ahead.

Fhauvial

04-08-2014, 09:20 AM

It should be a melee capstone ability. I would settle for an Epic tier 5 martial sphere destiny enhancement. The amount of Monks in the game is silly. Turbine should recognize this and either fix multi-classing, or rework enhancements. An in-game level 30 raid item that granted evasion would hardly be game breaking. This is the final year for a level cap and they might as well add it.

Colorless augment. 195 Turbine Points. Go ahead and make Improved Evasion as a Green for 495 Turbine Points.

How would this not be broken? o.o

Giving away evasion on an item or a capstone would be a horrible precedent for this game. Let's just not go there.

Ungood

04-08-2014, 10:05 AM

Colorless augment. 195 Turbine Points. Go ahead and make Improved Evasion as a Green for 495 Turbine Points.

This I would buy.

Vint

04-08-2014, 10:31 AM

This I would buy.

I agree, and I feel that many people would buy this as well.

This is the whole problem with the argument. Many things in the store give players a distinct advantage over other players. So why is it that people are so butt hurt that players get an advantage because of race? If the same people complaining and wanting nerfs have never received an advantage through the store, then they have a point, but I’d wager that 99% of people have paid for many advantages.

Ungood

04-08-2014, 10:57 AM

I agree, and I feel that many people would buy this as well.

This is the whole problem with the argument. Many things in the store give players a distinct advantage over other players. So why is it that people are so butt hurt that players get an advantage because of race? If the same people complaining and wanting nerfs have never received an advantage through the store, then they have a point, but I’d wager that 99% of people have paid for many advantages.

While I agree with you Vint, I think it is rather silly, if not downright petty.

Look at this way, if they don't like that race, (ets say because it is Ugly) they feel forced to play it, because it is the best option. Unlike a Augment, that can be slotted and worn by any class/race combo, their decision to play flavor builds, or any race at all, or pure classes are not imposed upon.

With an advantage being given to one class or one race, then it feels as if there is need to be shoehorned into that decision, hence all the monk hate, and all the monk splits.

Free2Pay

04-08-2014, 12:17 PM

What are the destinies with costs in the hundreds to activate skills?

1) Unyielding Sentinel : 225 spell points for mass Energy Resistances
2) Divine Crusader : 300 spell points for Celestial Bombardment 3d6 fire dmg per character level for 3 mins cooldown

Show me what other destinies are as "balanced" as divine spheres?

EllisDee37

04-08-2014, 12:50 PM

(Evasion) should be a melee capstone ability. I would settle for an Epic tier 5 martial sphere destiny enhancement.Tier 5s aren't twistable. Adding untwistable evasion to a martial sphere destiny? Your wish is granted: Use Shadowdancer.

avepepix

04-08-2014, 01:00 PM

Hey at least Turbine fixed the music songs that work with constructs, undead, etc the way they used to work! Progress is progress.

Now if Bards could give a song of evasion that would be awesome. They certainly do need an enhancement rework.

Yeah, progress is progress i dont deny it =D

But half of the tree of the bard its bha, or useless, or whatever you want to call it =)

avepepix

04-08-2014, 01:07 PM

Really?? How did this thread on game Player Character Balance get to squabbling about multiclass splashes and BYOH derails.

This is a Furyshot for 65K damage in under 5 seconds... No Way this is intentional. Wanna talk about Balance? Talk about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZk8p96KvMc

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?
Player balance, its about a lot of thinks, even pure vs multiclass

Desonde

04-08-2014, 01:09 PM

Epic levels should count towards all class abilities and other stuff, not just casters. For example, Holy Retribution is currently a Will save of (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) when it should be (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Epic level).

Hummm good point, but...

I mean on one hand, it makes sense Epic Levels are "generic" levels, should apply to every classes spells/abilities, and not to mention that in doing so, it would make Epic Levels something meaningful in regards to power of the build overall.

At the same time, it would suddenly make a 2/18 split into 12/28 split (a total of 40 levels) or a 6/6/8 split into a 16/16/18 split (a total of 50 levels)

And while that may not be bad at all for the game, it may open the door to all kinds of builds that take advantage of the 'stacking' epic levels, and while I'll admit, I don't see exactly how it would be abused by the number crunches, I just know it would.

It's actually pretty easy to see that Ungood (10 FvS/10 Sorc would be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at lvl 30).

I do however agree that epic levels need to be added into the equation, especially when it comes to DC's on class skills (since CR 38 creatures seem to have a Will Save greater than 68). But to address the issue that Ungood has raised, instead of adding Epic Level's directly to the equation, add the coefficient of base class to epic levels (Epic Coefficient = Base Class Level/20*Epic Level). This way, when at level 30, a 18/2 Split would become a 27/3 equivalent, 6/6/8 becomes a 9/9/12, 10/10 becomes 15/15, and a 3/6/11 becomes 4/9/16 (yes due to rounding, odd numbered splits will lose 1 effective level, but not all rounding is fair).

Grimlock

04-08-2014, 02:04 PM

Tier 5s aren't twistable. Adding untwistable evasion to a martial sphere destiny? Your wish is granted: Use Shadowdancer.

This is ti*s worthless. Evasion needs to be granted as a capstone for all melee enhancements or as an innnate destiny ability for all the martial spheres. Shadowdancer is a waste - one of the worst destinies. People on this build are monks or rogues who have evasion and do not need this.

Ungood

04-08-2014, 02:05 PM

It's actually pretty easy to see that Ungood (10 FvS/10 Sorc would be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at lvl 30).

Not quite equal to, as they would not the spells of a 20th level FvS or a 20th Level Sorc, IE: They would be limited to level 5 spells, but cast them at a caster Level of 20th. They would also be limited to level 10 and below abilities, but use them at level 20 potency.

How that would change the game, I am not sure, but it would take a lot of study to really grasp the overall effect of doing that.

I do however agree that epic levels need to be added into the equation, especially when it comes to DC's on class skills (since CR 38 creatures seem to have a Will Save greater than 68). But to address the issue that Ungood has raised, instead of adding Epic Level's directly to the equation, add the coefficient of base class to epic levels (Epic Coefficient = Base Class Level/20*Epic Level). This way, when at level 30, a 18/2 Split would become a 27/3 equivalent, 6/6/8 becomes a 9/9/12, 10/10 becomes 15/15, and a 3/6/11 becomes 4/9/16 (yes due to rounding, odd numbered splits will lose 1 effective level, but not all rounding is fair).

This is a pretty good idea.

BOgre

04-08-2014, 04:28 PM

This is ti*s worthless. Evasion needs to be granted as a capstone for all melee enhancements or as an innnate destiny ability for all the martial spheres. Shadowdancer is a waste - one of the worst destinies. People on this build are monks or rogues who have evasion and do not need this.

That would do nothing. What's the point of taking no damage instead of half damage on a save when you're never going to make your save anyways? What you really want is Improved Evasion to be granted to melees/martial spheres. And no, absolutely not. This whole nonsense about granting everyone everything is awful.

Teh_Troll

04-08-2014, 04:38 PM

That would do nothing. What's the point of taking no damage instead of half damage on a save when you're never going to make your save anyways? What you really want is Improved Evasion to be granted to melees/martial spheres. And no, absolutely not. This whole nonsense about granting everyone everything is awful.

Shush!!! I need people to pay for my "How to not be terrible at DDO" course . . . why you telling people for free?

Turbine has set the saves requirements in EEs so insanely high, and the damage from said effects so stupidly high, that you need pally levels. This is insanely stupid and should be changed.

HungarianRhapsody

04-08-2014, 04:46 PM

Shush!!! I need people to pay for my "How to not be terrible at DDO" course . . . why you telling people for free?

Turbine has set the saves requirements in EEs so insanely high, and the damage from said effects so stupidly high, that you need pally levels. This is insanely stupid and should be changed.

More than 2 Paladin levels is such a terrible choice that Turbine makes up for it by making exactly 2 Paladin levels a FANTASTIC choice. That's balance, right?

Teh_Troll

04-08-2014, 04:59 PM

More than 2 Paladin levels is such a terrible choice that Turbine makes up for it by making exactly 2 Paladin levels a FANTASTIC choice. That's balance, right?

Maybe it makes sense if you're suffering from severe head trauma.

Qhualor

04-08-2014, 05:01 PM

More than 2 Paladin levels is such a terrible choice that Turbine makes up for it by making exactly 2 Paladin levels a FANTASTIC choice. That's balance, right?

not as terrible as the forum people say it is, but not to say Paladins couldn't use help beyond the 2 levels.

Chaios

04-08-2014, 06:50 PM

Yeah, progress is progress i dont deny it =D
But half of the tree of the bard its bha, or useless, or whatever you want to call it =)

Makes you want a Bard enhancement line that grants evasion and divine grace, don't it?

oradafu

04-08-2014, 07:09 PM

It's actually pretty easy to see that Ungood (10 FvS/10 Sorc would be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at lvl 30).

I do however agree that epic levels need to be added into the equation, especially when it comes to DC's on class skills (since CR 38 creatures seem to have a Will Save greater than 68). But to address the issue that Ungood has raised, instead of adding Epic Level's directly to the equation, add the coefficient of base class to epic levels (Epic Coefficient = Base Class Level/20*Epic Level). This way, when at level 30, a 18/2 Split would become a 27/3 equivalent, 6/6/8 becomes a 9/9/12, 10/10 becomes 15/15, and a 3/6/11 becomes 4/9/16 (yes due to rounding, odd numbered splits will lose 1 effective level, but not all rounding is fair).

Under my idea of increasing levels in Epics, a 10 FvS/10 Sorc wouldn't be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at level 30. That particular build would be limited with the number of spells available for a level 10 Fvs & 10 Sorc but would have the caster level of 20 for their spells. So that build would be limited to one level 5 Divine spell and one level 5 Arcane spell, but the caster level would be 20 at level 30 and not level 10.

BigErkyKid

04-09-2014, 03:35 AM

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?
Player balance, its about a lot of thinks, even pure vs multiclass

+1. Clean and simple. But let's not attract the attention too much to multiclassing in case they nerf it... (that's the sort of reasoning going on around here).

pHo3nix

04-09-2014, 06:47 AM

not as terrible as the forum people say it is, but not to say Paladins couldn't use help beyond the 2 levels.

As long as you haven't the paladin icon you should be fine ;)

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?

I know it might be a hard concept to grasp for some people, but rangers in D&D and DDO as well aren't the masters of archery. A fighter or anyone with enough feats can get all the same feats a ranger gets for free. And rangers got 2wf feats for free as well. Ranger =/= best archer.

The fact that some multiclass build can do more damage during manyshot than a pure ranger is not surprising at all.

avepepix

04-09-2014, 11:03 AM

Makes you want a Bard enhancement line that grants evasion and divine grace, don't it?

Of course not. But gathering cold its useless. Duelist its a better option to a tree that its supouse to be a fighter. Adding dodge and piercing its mutch better option.

avepepix

04-09-2014, 11:16 AM

I know it might be a hard concept to grasp for some people, but rangers in D&D and DDO as well aren't the masters of archery. A fighter or anyone with enough feats can get all the same feats a ranger gets for free. And rangers got 2wf feats for free as well. Ranger =/= best archer.

The fact that some multiclass build can do more damage during manyshot than a pure ranger is not surprising at all.

No, its not surprising at all. We can argue if that its correct or not, but its not surprising. Im still thinking that a fighter can do better base damage with a bow =)

In some place of the way, the different classes lost his balance. I dont think nerfing something its a solution, i believe a some classes need more love, thats all.
My AC intimi tank first life its still competitive, it dont kill, he make them suffer lol but he can survive. Other characters dont.
The balance has to be thinking in survive and finishing a quest, an op combination its ok, but if the game scale his difficult about the best OP classes combination, the other classes are out of theme.

Seikojin

04-09-2014, 01:20 PM

If we were to take baby steps to make balance a reality; I would strongly urge the armor feats (or the armor types like they did when they lost mithril/adamantium)to be worked to include more mitigation. Tiered boosts to reduce damage. This way evasion has its place and the people without evasion will want a trapper and will go after casters first still, but allows them to do their role as an agro grabber or to handle the mobs they are supposed to fight.

It isn't like the whole strategy is to b-line your diametrically opposed class and beat them down because they are natively weak against you.

Sam1313

04-09-2014, 04:55 PM

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?
Player balance, its about a lot of thinks, even pure vs multiclass

I have several (26) AA Rangers across the servers. Non of them can hit for damage like that guy is hitting for in that video. My level 28 AA Ranger hits for at the most for 259 hp of dmg and that's with a slaying arrow. All the other arrow hit for somewhere between 78 pts of dmg to 120pts of dmg. And that's with 42 str with the bow str feat Using the Pinion bow. Along with the best gear in the game. Maybe its the Human Class that just sucks? Maybe its the Pure Build Class that just sucks? IDK, but what I do know is theres NO Pure Build going to do that much damage like the character in the video did.

What is sad is the developers will "Look into the Ranged Class" most likely to Nerf us some more? They are totally missing the point everyone is trying to convey to them that: Pure build V/S Monk Splashed builds aren't even close enough to be compared to each other. I agree some classes and races should be more powerful than others but this is just stupidly ridiculously way out of whack to the point that it is FUBAR.

The AA Ranger capstone is a joke. The AA Ranger penalty to manyshots is a JOKE. I mean come on really a 120 second cool down timer WITH a penalty to double strike? Might as well never use manyshots because your going to be so penalized for using it that it makes your AA Ranger useless for the next 120seconds. I know some of you think of Ranger as a TWF but some of us use ONLY the BOW because we are ARCHERS not fighters. If I wanted to use blades to fight with then I would play a fighter or a barbarian or a FVS.

Instead of giving the Ranged class the "SCALPEL" why not buff some of the classes to bring them up to date with the Monk splashed classes? Make the silver Flame Potions so they don't make you have to cower in a dark corner for 30 seconds so the melee non healing class can use them to self heal. fix the Pure Build capstones so you have a tough choice of going Multiclassed over Pure Build. But as stated here by the developer (• Frontloading and Minimizing changes to characters: Many popular & powerful abilities are “front-loaded”; they are on low tiers in the enhancement trees. This was very consciously done so that most characters could still get most of what they desired without much hassle. We knew this would incentivize multiclassing,) and again here ( MULTICLASSING IS STILL CLEARLY AN INCREASE IN POWER (you get the “best” 3 trees out of 6-9, instead of just 3),) So basically they want us to multiclass. Do away with the mayshot penalty to AA Rangers but oh this might make the new raids more doable though and that might be a bad thing? The developers would only have to change and recode a few things v/s having to nerf and entire class and adjust a whole legion of monsters..

Alfhild

04-09-2014, 05:27 PM

I have several (26) AA Rangers across the servers. Non of them can hit for damage like that guy is hitting for in that video. My level 28 AA Ranger hits for at the most for 259 hp of dmg and that's with a slaying arrow. All the other arrow hit for somewhere between 78 pts of dmg to 120pts of dmg. And that's with 42 str with the bow str feat Using the Pinion bow. Along with the best gear in the game. Maybe its the Human Class that just sucks? Maybe its the Pure Build Class that just sucks? IDK, but what I do know is theres NO Pure Build going to do that much damage like the character in the video did.
An Arrow of Slaying does Weapon Damage +250
Your slaying arrows "at the most" are doing 259 damage with 42 STR and pinion.
Therefore Pinion is doing 9 damage with 42 STR.
Pinion does 2.50 [2d6] + 7?
42 STR is +16 damage?
Care to youtube your claims?

Chaios

04-09-2014, 06:18 PM

Of course not. But gathering cold its useless. Duelist its a better option to a tree that its supouse to be a fighter. Adding dodge and piercing its mutch better option.

****, I do! Why not? It would be almost like "DDO Corrupt-a-wish" only with a poetic twist. Sure, add dodge and piercing also.

Sam1313

04-09-2014, 10:17 PM

An Arrow of Slaying does Weapon Damage +250
Your slaying arrows "at the most" are doing 259 damage with 42 STR and pinion.
Therefore Pinion is doing 9 damage with 42 STR.
Pinion does 2.50 [2d6] + 7?
42 STR is +16 damage?
Care to youtube your claims?

Here ya go man....https://www.youtube.com/user/JudasIscariot1313

avepepix

04-09-2014, 10:46 PM

Here ya go man....https://www.youtube.com/user/JudasIscariot1313

Its me or you forgot to demostrate the damage?

BOgre

04-09-2014, 10:55 PM

that link takes us to your youtube page, not to a specific video. If you have an actual video demonstrating what you're saying, we'd need the actual link to the video. We're not really expected to guess, are we?

Wipey

04-09-2014, 11:41 PM

Here ya go man....https://www.youtube.com/user/JudasIscariot1313
Hey, autoattack in Shiradi doesn't really give you much heh.
Get Deadly 10 on gear, Switch to Fury, twist Pin. Get Overwhelming critical if you don't have it already.
Turn autoattack off. Pin the mob, hit human Damage Boost, Manyshot, hit Adrenaline + Slayer Arrow.
Roll 19 or 20 crit.
Profit.

Monkcher is 2 W and 1 crit multi on 19/20 ahead, that's all. .

Oliphant

04-10-2014, 12:07 AM

Responding to the original post:

I took the survey, which had good questions. Don't know if the sample will be representative or not.

My opinion is find the simplest solution, which I think is to buff the weak spots in certain types of builds in the epic content. The main weak spot I see is the armor based defenses for melees (like AC and PRR). Bump them up a bit somehow. Do minimal or no nerfs.

Regarding possible nerfs, I think the slayer arrows, many shot and fury effects for ranged builds generally (let's call them big shots for quick reference) should not be nerfed just because some players express jealousy at not matching the damage on their toon. However, I think you should review whether extreme bursts of damage that big shots are putting out are spoiling too many boss fights. Fix AC and PRR effectively and I could see rangers on par with monkchers (unless the monkcher starts punching the ranger in the face, of course).

Personally:
I think it is very cool that players have a way to make a viable ranged-only toon now, which is a fine role playing option that has been difficult to pull off in the past. Let's not lose that.

pHo3nix

04-10-2014, 06:22 AM

Hey, autoattack in Shiradi doesn't really give you much heh.
Get Deadly 10 on gear, Switch to Fury, twist Pin. Get Overwhelming critical if you don't have it already.
Turn autoattack off. Pin the mob, hit human Damage Boost, Manyshot, hit Adrenaline + Slayer Arrow.
Roll 19 or 20 crit.
Profit.

Monkcher is 2 W and 1 crit multi on 19/20 ahead, that's all. .

Stop trying to add logic to the thread! A random lvl 20 ranger played and equipped randomly is doing way less damage than a fully geared monkcher played by a top player: clearly monkcher damage is not balanced!!

Ivan_Milic

04-10-2014, 10:08 AM

Max DPS builds do not use full plate. They use robes. Why? Because AC is useless with 70% dodge and 10 stacks of blitz going. Evasion would mean a decrease in Monk levels - which is overly saturated in this game.

How do you get 70% dodge?
You do know that blitz 50% dodge caps to your dodge cap, so if your dodge cap is 30, you will have 30% dodge, cant get more.

Grimlock

04-10-2014, 10:42 AM

How do you get 70% dodge?
You do know that blitz 50% dodge caps to your dodge cap, so if your dodge cap is 30, you will have 30% dodge, cant get more.

My understanding from blitz is that it ignores the dodge cap and stacks with your existing dodge bonus.

redspecter23

04-10-2014, 10:45 AM

My understanding from blitz is that it ignores the dodge cap and stacks with your existing dodge bonus.

If you blitz in heavy armor, you get a dodge of 1% unless you have other ways of raising your cap. Unless something changed in the most recent patch, the dodge bonus from blitz is still limited by your cap.

Cardtrick

04-10-2014, 10:46 AM

My understanding from blitz is that it ignores the dodge cap and stacks with your existing dodge bonus.

It is supposed to, based on the description. But unless it changed with the last patch, it doesn't ignore the armor dodge cap.

Grimlock

04-10-2014, 10:50 AM

It is supposed to, based on the description. But unless it changed with the last patch, it doesn't ignore the armor dodge cap.

That is my fault for reading the description of Blitz and believing it should work. You'd think I would have caught on after 8 years of playing this game! :-)

Is there anyone on the Players Council or a Mournlands person who can speak as to why this is not wai?

Cardtrick

04-10-2014, 10:53 AM

Is there anyone on the Players Council or a Mournlands person who can speak as to why this is not wai?

Given how incredibly powerful Master's Blitz already is, I suspect that any fix to this behavior is going to be coupled with a nerf to the rest of it that you most likely will not be thrilled by. This might be a "be quiet and hope they never look at it" sort of situation.

GMoneyMackDaddy

04-10-2014, 11:01 AM

Again,

Give monks their stances back, boost the capstones for those DEDICATED, to focus on staying a pure build.

Maybe un nerf bards while you are at it.

Oh and while you are fixing character balance, fix mob balance as well.

Ancient

04-10-2014, 12:04 PM

Given how incredibly powerful Master's Blitz already is, I suspect that any fix to this behavior is going to be coupled with a nerf to the rest of it that you most likely will not be thrilled by. This might be a "be quiet and hope they never look at it" sort of situation.

I know I wish they had never looked at boulder toss.

Delacroix21

04-10-2014, 12:10 PM

Sam1313

04-10-2014, 12:17 PM

Its me or you forgot to demostrate the damage?

that link takes us to your youtube page, not to a specific video. If you have an actual video demonstrating what you're saying, we'd need the actual link to the video. We're not really expected to guess, are we?

Hey, autoattack in Shiradi doesn't really give you much heh.
Get Deadly 10 on gear, Switch to Fury, twist Pin. Get Overwhelming critical if you don't have it already.
Turn autoattack off. Pin the mob, hit human Damage Boost, Manyshot, hit Adrenaline + Slayer Arrow.
Roll 19 or 20 crit.
Profit.

Monkcher is 2 W and 1 crit multi on 19/20 ahead, that's all. .

Well there is 5 videos on that youtube page that has been uploaded you could have clicked on either one of them to see damage.
But since we live in a age where people need their hands held here you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B7XMnd5sXc&feature=player_embedded Also note to read the chat so you know whats going to happen. Auto Attack I never ever use. As demonstrated He's a human pure build AA Ranger using a stock pinion with a str of 42 using the bow str feat. His damage is anywhere from 78 pts of dmg to 259 pts of dmg. OCCASIONALLY if he's freaking lucky he can get in the 300 to low 400's but this is still no where near the damage that the Monk Archers are doing.

redspecter23

04-10-2014, 12:19 PM

I really don't understand posts of asking for pure builds to be as powerfull as multiclasses. Let's get one thing straight: multi classing does NOT automatically give you a better toon. In fact a badly planned multiclass character can be significantly WEAKER than pure. It is hard to balance pure builds to be as good as a build that takes the BEST traits of other classes and mashes them together.

Those asking for nerfs to multiclass characters are just jealous that they don't know how to plan and build a character as well, or are upset that their role playing build is not as strong as a build based around actually game mechanics and not just some flavor or backstory.

That being said the only FAIR way to level the field is to buff pure builds rather than nerf multiclasses. The solution lies in capstones. Capstones now are good, but not great. +2 to a stat is HARDlY a reason to stay pure, while +6 to a stat is better. I think doubling the power of capstones across the board (and no clicky capstones, no one wants that garbage) will make pure builds seem MUCH more attractive and make it much harder to justify splashing.

For example:
Rogue assassin: +4 sneak attack dice and a measly 2 int (which is a measly +1 to assassinate DC)
Becomes
+8 sneak attack dice and 6 int. NOW I will seriously consider not getting a few fighter/paladin/monk/ranger levels.

You have to be careful if you buff the capstones too much. You raise the powercreep by the capstone amount, shutting out other builds in the process. You make pure builds better at the expense of multiclass which is just the same problem we have now, but reversed.

Instead of just plain making them more powerful, I'd add more utility to capstones. For the assassin one, I'd keep the +4 sneak dice and +2 int but then also give an extra 10 AP when you take the capstone. This gives a pure build more AP to play with so it's potentially more powerful but as you only have one class, your options are limited anyway. Perhaps the 10 AP can go to filling out a racial tree that otherwise would be difficult to allocate points to on a toon with 3 classes. In the future there can be abilities added for 4, 6 or even 10 AP that would be way overcosted for a multiclass build (they could take them at great cost), but would be perfect to spend your capstone AP on.

Of course it doesn't have to be an AP bonus. My point is that adding utility can be a great way to add incentive to the capstones without just raising the power level again.

pHo3nix

04-10-2014, 12:28 PM

Well there is 5 videos on that youtube page that has been uploaded you could have clicked on either one of them to see damage.
But since we live in a age where people need their hands held here you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B7XMnd5sXc&feature=player_embedded Also note to read the chat so you know whats going to happen. Auto Attack I never ever use. As demonstrated He's a human pure build AA Ranger using a stock pinion with a str of 42 using the bow str feat. His damage is anywhere from 78 pts of dmg to 259 pts of dmg. OCCASIONALLY if he's freaking lucky he can get in the 300's but this is still no where near the damage that the Monk Archers are doing.

As Encair pointed out, a monkcher got just 2W and +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 in earth stance over a pure ranger if we just consider damage. So if you are doing a lot less damage you are probably missing a lot of the damage bonuses that are available to everyone.

Sam1313

04-10-2014, 12:48 PM

Teh_Troll

04-10-2014, 01:12 PM

My understanding from blitz is that it ignores the dodge cap and stacks with your existing dodge bonus.

You've never actually Blitzed have you?

Teh_Troll

04-10-2014, 01:12 PM

Scraap

04-10-2014, 01:15 PM

heck with that, njerf 'em all. More buffs = more power creap.

Good minion. erimean ^this.

Ivan_Milic

04-10-2014, 01:17 PM

My understanding from blitz is that it ignores the dodge cap and stacks with your existing dodge bonus.

So you discuss something you dont know how it works?
Thats why we get stupid nerfs.

Cordovan

04-10-2014, 01:50 PM

I realize this is a passionate discussion, but fighting and attacks are not permitted. Feel free to discuss the subject without insulting each other, please.

Teh_Troll

04-10-2014, 02:05 PM

I realize this is a passionate discussion, but fighting and attacks are not permitted. Feel free to discuss the subject without insulting each other, please.

Consider this post me signing a waiver . . . insult me all you want mammals, I can take it. :cool:

Teh_Troll

04-10-2014, 02:10 PM

Sardonica

04-10-2014, 03:01 PM

Should OC and Earth Stance stack?

How about Earth Stance (defensive) precludes rage effects (such as Adrenaline)?

Thayion516

04-10-2014, 03:09 PM

Jokes aside . . . trying to fix the situation we've in now with buff will break things worse.

if you don't want to specifically nerf a class/ED/Race nerf what STACKS with what.

Should OC and Earth Stance stack?

Should Tempest and Deft Strikes?

The Maximizes Spell reduction thingy from wizard trees that Shiradis abuse the hell out of.

The FvS thing should only work with Divine magic, not arcane.

Stuff like that.

Unfortunately Troll is correct. I've seen it in many other MMOs. Continuously Buffing leads to an UPward spiral of unending power creep in abilities, content, itemization and Mobs. For the most part, the most stable "Rebalances" I've seen have always been 75% Nerf/25%Buff. Done in Increments over about 6 months so people see movement but nothing being a singular knockout.

After almost 20 years of online gaming, I can confidently say that for the life of any MMO: Small Nerfs > Small Buffs and Incremental Tested Changes.

Cardtrick

04-10-2014, 03:21 PM

Should OC and Earth Stance stack?

Yes -- but the crit bonus should be pushed to Grandmaster stance, which should require 12 or 18 monk levels.

Should Tempest and Deft Strikes?

Yes -- but Deft Strikes should be a tier 4 ability rather than tier 1. It's an extremely powerful ability and it shouldn't be available to 2 monk splashes who don't want to invest 20+ APs into Shintao.

The Maximizes Spell reduction thingy from wizard trees that Shiradis abuse the hell out of.

Eh . . . this one I don't see as unbalanced. It's pretty expensive in terms of APs. A lot of my builds don't even bother with one set of these enhancements, never mind two. Most Shiradi builds are getting most of their procs from either SLAs or un-metaed cheap spells anyway.

I don't really have any problem with abilities that reduce the cost of spells. If they were removed, I think players would just use more pots, which I don't really see as an improvement.

The FvS thing should only work with Divine magic, not arcane.

Again, I don't really see the harm in abilities that reduce the cost of spells. It doesn't allow anyone to do anything they couldn't otherwise do -- it just reduces the need for potions and consumable resources. Splashing 2 or 4 levels of Favored Soul on an arcane caster is a significant cost, since you lose caster levels and spell slots (and the ability to splash both monk and paladin).

Stuff like that.

I don't really think that Shiradi casters need to be nerfed much, if at all. (Beyond what they've already gotten.) Unlike a lot of the other overpowered builds, they don't really negatively impact the playing experience for other party members (well, assuming the stupid Adrenaline proc ever gets removed).

But if you did want to nerf them, I think the better approach is simple -- change the Shiradi procs to only be triggered once per spell. Magic Missile giving 5 independent proc chances is a bit crazy.

I suspect that this would be too heavy handed of a nerf, and it still wouldn't incentivize casting higher level spells, so I would instead change it so that by default a spell would only proc once, but it would have an additional chance to proc multiple times based on its spell level, kind of like how 10K Stars works (but based on spell level rather than wisdom). Maybe something like a 20% chance to proc twice at spell level 2, 40% at spell level 3, etc. Level 6 spells would have 100% chance to proc twice, while level 7 spells would have 20% chance to proc 3 times, up to epic spells (hellball, ruin) with 100% chance to proc twice and 80% chance to proc a third time. Basically, reward casting higher level and more expensive spells, rather than rewarding magic missile, chain missile, and scorching ray. Then on top of that, make a critical hit always give a single extra proc chance. Even casting hell ball in this system would still generate fewer Shiradi procs than what we currently get with magic missile, but I think it's enough over all to still be a useful destiny.

Grimlock

04-10-2014, 03:49 PM

You've never actually Blitzed have you?

All the time. I am more worried about killing what I am facing than trying to track my dodge bonus. I swing my Thunder-forged greatsword and things die. Dodge is a "nice to have", but is not why I blitz.

Teh_Troll

04-10-2014, 03:49 PM

How about Earth Stance (defensive) precludes rage effects (such as Adrenaline)?

Being Centered period should preclude rage effects.

I like it, but I enjoy the tears of mammals so I might not be the best judge.

Ivan_Milic

04-10-2014, 04:06 PM

Yes -- but the crit bonus should be pushed to Grandmaster stance, which should require 12 or 18 monk levels.

No, crit should be moved to fire stance, doesnt make sense that its in earth stance.

Seikojin

04-10-2014, 04:21 PM

I think armor feats boosting dr/prr/ac would help the most, or enhancements boosted to do the same. Feats would make some builds OP, but boosting their enhancements can be more controlled.

I think 10k stars and manyshot should be doubleshot boosters based on class level, period. No burst, just always on. Taking the manyshot out of ranger class should be a nerfed version/basic version.
So manyshot:
Non-rangers: +10% doubleshot and +10% more doubleshot at level 20.
Rangers: 7.5% per class level. This would make 38% @ lvl 6 ranger, and 150% as pure ranger.

Same for 10k stars. I think adding in item and other enhancements, it may make it do about the same, but hopefully 1-3 arrows/stars less due to it being sustained.

Casters just need some dc boosting in divine and bards/barbs need major work.

Cardtrick

04-10-2014, 04:46 PM

No, crit should be moved to fire stance, doesnt make sense that its in earth stance.

That's better thematically, but then fire stance becomes extremely powerful. Strength bonus, basically unlimited ki, stacking heal amp from jidz tet'ka bracers, and the crit profile bonus . . . It's a lot. Maybe better than earth stance is right now. I still think, no matter what, the crit bonus should require grandmaster stance. And that you shouldn't be able to get master and grandmaster stances with a 2 monk splash.

Even years down the line from the debacle of the eSOS, the devs still seem to underestimate the importance of critical profiles.

Ivan_Milic

04-10-2014, 05:02 PM

That's better thematically, but then fire stance becomes extremely powerful. Strength bonus, basically unlimited ki, stacking heal amp from jidz tet'ka bracers, and the crit profile bonus . . . It's a lot. Maybe better than earth stance is right now. I still think, no matter what, the crit bonus should require grandmaster stance. And that you shouldn't be able to get master and grandmaster stances with a 2 monk splash.

Even years down the line from the debacle of the eSOS, the devs still seem to underestimate the importance of critical profiles.

Heal amp means nothing if you are bf/wf, builds that are using earth stance already have more ki than they need, all it would give is str and crit multiplier, hardly can be called extremely powerful.

Grailhawk

04-10-2014, 05:29 PM

Heal amp means nothing if you are bf/wf, builds that are using earth stance already have more ki than they need, all it would give is str and crit multiplier, hardly can be called extremely powerful.

Healing amp is more dangerous then you think it is. The issue with earth stance right now is that the best offence is in the same place as the best defense healing amp at 25% mark could easily repeat the situation we have now.

Ivan_Milic

04-10-2014, 05:59 PM

Healing amp is more dangerous then you think it is. The issue with earth stance right now is that the best offence is in the same place as the best defense healing amp at 25% mark could easily repeat the situation we have now.

Why would any monk use jidz in epics just for 25% hamp?

Grailhawk

04-10-2014, 06:37 PM

Why would any monk use jidz in epics just for 25% hamp?

To push healing amp to get CSW pots to heal for 150-300. Adding +1 crit multiplier to those kinds of builds isn't worse then what we have now but it might not be better and is worth considering before moving the crit multiplier to fire stance.

Ivan_Milic

04-10-2014, 08:21 PM

To push healing amp to get CSW pots to heal for 150-300. Adding +1 crit multiplier to those kinds of builds isn't worse then what we have now but it might not be better and is worth considering before moving the crit multiplier to fire stance.

How many monks use jidz on ee?

GMoneyMackDaddy

04-10-2014, 08:44 PM

How many monks use jidz on ee?

Sure... ya ...can you say Dumathoins?

Lol, jidz... by the time you epic it, you have better already.

Eth

04-11-2014, 03:01 AM

How many monks use jidz on ee?

Probably no one, because fire stance isn't good at the moment. Which wass exactly grailhawks point. If you give firestance the nice things, this will become a thing again.
I don't think crit. multiplier should be moved to fire.
Change it back to monk lvl requirement for the stances instead of 1 monk and character lvl x and be done with it.

Ivan_Milic

04-11-2014, 07:58 AM

So monks will choose between 25% hamp or 7 wis, 2 ins con and parrying VIII.
I wonder what is better.

Ungood

04-11-2014, 08:14 AM

If you can not balance it right then do not do it at all.

Balancing it easy by nerfing just makes people leave. That has always been true and you guys have driven so many players over the years away that I have played with it is just silly.

You guys do not get what is really good and what is not. Example, the recent colors of the queen change. Double Rainbow/Colors IS NOT what makes the builds in shiradi great nor would a foolish change that makes the ability not only worse, but downright griefing to use in parties the way to address it if it was.

That is why you need to buff not nerf. You buff something no one uses and you get someone to use it maybe. It is much less dangerous and much easier to slowly increase the power of and see the results. (For nerfs they are too often binary like the colors change...you use it and you are now griefing your party/playing a bad build/just plain destroys build)

I am not sure how much I agree with Cyr's ideas that followed this, but, this point, is very well said.

EllisDee37

04-11-2014, 03:55 PM

So monks will choose between 25% hamp or 7 wis, 2 ins con and parrying VIII.
I wonder what is better.Lootgen Convalescent (20% or 30%, depending if you wear PDK gloves) of Superior Parrying are better than either. Of course they don't drop anymore, but hopefully they will eventually be added back to the loot tables.

Ivan_Milic

04-11-2014, 05:41 PM

J-mann

04-12-2014, 12:14 AM

That is as rare as spell storing ring.

Saw one on the ASAH the other day on Argo, asking 2k shards for it lol.

Ivan_Milic

04-12-2014, 08:36 AM

Saw one on the ASAH the other day on Argo, asking 2k shards for it lol.

Ring or bracers?

J-mann

04-12-2014, 12:13 PM

Ring or bracers?

20%bracers parrying 8.

Scraap

04-13-2014, 03:37 PM

I'll let folks determine for themselves if this is a suggestion for buffing non-paly saves, or pointing out the absurdity of what would be required to 'buff all the things':

A while ago, resistance and stability became non-stacking. All in all, a fairly logical change that reduced the ability/need/desire to slot 2 items. Then of course, resistance was scaled further, as were stat amplifiers and tomes, to the point where now top end stability items would need to weigh in at 10 (resist) + 5 (cha/2) = +15 to all saves to be in the ballpark of a paly-splash with a dead neutral charisma bonus. The same would apply if they switched to using will, or fort saves for mob spell-attacks.

Pandir

04-14-2014, 08:12 AM

Lootgen Convalescent (20% or 30%, depending if you wear PDK gloves) of Superior Parrying are better than either. Of course they don't drop anymore, but hopefully they will eventually be added back to the loot tables.

Heh i got one of those on my first life. Ever since the loot revamp everytime i log in first thing i check is if my precious is still there and well, i feel like gollum.

zwiebelring

04-14-2014, 08:54 AM

I want to gear up my barbarian with new loot but the devs shafted this class so hard, I cannot give up 20% amp tod ring and thus FB set + 30% amp bracers. 3 fixed slots. Meh...

Apolloneus

04-14-2014, 10:18 AM

2x4

04-14-2014, 12:15 PM

I did not go through all of the posts on this thread so sorry if this is repeptitive.IMO the cry for more character balance is a cry to water down all of the characters in this game. I don't want to see characters balanced, I think what instead should be the topic of discussions is character viability in all content as the character(s) move up the experioence ladded at all difficulties of the game. The question should be, is this build viable at level "x" at difficulty "x". also, viability does not mean "best" it means can it survive, operate and / or contribute to a group? also viable absolutely should not mean being able to solo the most difficult content of the game on the hardest difficulty level. If viability is not the true measuring stick then we are all tumbling down the slope of us all being the same character with different weapon sets. We are melee or casters with some specialties. IMO it would be an absolute mistake to take the term balance to mean anything more than viability as I have described it. I think if you apply the viability principle to this discussion we will discover that there are probably minimal changes needed to deal with viability.. so just focus on those that are truly not viable.

2x4

04-14-2014, 12:38 PM

I've said this before but I will say it a thousand more times until it is tattooed on the brains on the developers: Don't "Nerf" or downgrade ANY race or class. Instead buff up the pure builds and give some much needed love to the Bards. Some Races and Classes should be more powerful than others but not so far out that they are not even comparable. The way the game is right now it is a REAL challenge to play a pure build anything. Heck even the elite of the elitist don't play a pure build because its so dam hard. Running a pure build character is like running in a permadeath guild. You gotta be very careful in what you do and how you do it and when you do it.My game experience dows not mathc this. I only run pure classes and have been playing since u7. I have 4 at level 28 and one with all ED's. I am bringing my 5th through epic destinies right now. they are Pally, Ranger, Druid, Arty and Sorceror. I have been able to run all content and enjoy these Toons immensely. No problems getting in groups and the top raids. I am well geared. Multi-classing just doesn't appeal to me. I am glad you find multi classes enjoyable but please do not attempt to ruin my game play because I am enjoying the pure toons.

Talon_Moonshadow

04-14-2014, 01:01 PM

[QUOTE=Vargouille;5289927]Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players.

I'm a barb. I have no Alts, and no levels of other classes mixed in. I have loved my pure melee dps character since it's pen and paper version, however I would like to see more focus not on character balance so much as PARTY balance when making changes. I'm actually fine with the challenges you create tweaking individual abilities (although I don't really need them to enjoy myself)... except that when your changes de-motivate inclusion of my class because endgame parties don't need or want me.

"BYOH" and "Self sufficient" have become the #1 requirements for endgame raiding. (Not a barb strong suit even though I am better than most)... Casters run ahead now rather than staying behind "meat shields"... and everyone was tired of holding parties 20 minutes for a healer, yet we are still glass cannons with no PRR, no AC, no evasion, and no Hamp.

I'm tired of being viewed as only a "mana drain" on the party... or having to gimp my DPS so severely with silver flame pots, that I barely out hit a non-melee. If everyone had the job security of a vital skill like rogues and arties have with traps and doors... you wouldn't see groups with 40% casters/ranged, 40% monks and 20% pikers. THAT would be balance. I hate going 6 months unable to get into a decent EE raid because its too hard on resources to carry a barb through it. I don't blame them of course... why would a party leader want 12 players to wait for me to pound on baddies in a doorway while spamming heals...when casters can one shot, ranged can hit from safe spots, and monks can run in and EIN the room...

I started playing this game because I liked the equal participation a balanced party gives. Whether around a table or online...The type A folks don't get to dominate the quiet ones in group, because everyone was needed to get through the quest or raid.

BALANCE to me... means an equal opportunity to play my character... without having pike, ride in someone's pocket, or entirely skip endgame content.

Why do the Barbarians always talk about people playing roles? (which comes down to the Barbarian guy kills and everyone else stands back and supports him)

That aside, you are right about the other stuff... especially your last line.
Equal opportunity to play your character.

The Barbarian is a good example for balance and the current end game. But not necessarily because of self-healing. (although I think that is an important point.)

The Barbarian is designed (at least for DDO) to be a two handed melee weapon fighter, who charges into the thick of things and lets his HP (and supposedly DR) help him survive.

He is supposed to take damage, but is also supposed to survive the fight!

Two obvious ways to help Barbarians is for armor to have better protection.
(They can wear medium armor.)
and for their DR to be improved.

One thing that would also help is to beef up shields.
Most Barb players do not want to hear this, but Barbs are skilled in shield usage, and I would like to see a game where a Barb can choose to use one at times.

But IMO, Barbs should also be self sufficient.
Aren't they suppose to know some kind of lore to survive in the wilderness?
Wouldn't healing be a part of that?
They do get more skill points than most classes.... those skill should mean something.

Their bonuses to trap saves should mean something too IMO.
I see no problem with a Barb running ahead and setting off an (epic) elite trap.... and surviving!
Tweak this ability (and the trap damage) so a reasonably equipped (and enhanced maybe) Brb can save and survive half damage from traps.

Also, the more I read comments about balance and BYOH, I think that maybe Heal and Repair should add to potion healing.

Enoach

04-14-2014, 01:26 PM

Balance needs to also look at the Environment the Devs have built us, especially since DDO is a PvE game.

If it leans to far towards any aspect it will give itself to certain types of builds.

Such as Evasion and Reflex saves. While I agree that Reflex type damage should be among the Deadliest in the game it should not make up more than 33% of the danger. There lies the problem. Will and Fortitude save types should also make up an even proportion of the danger.

Right now Reflex saves make up a disproportionate danger aspect. This is why Evasion based builds are looked at as optimal. Especially since Spell Absorption can make up the needs against Will/Fort save deficiency.

Now other aspects that I feel need to be addressed:

AC - It should matter and be equal to the Dodge Aspect of the To-Hit formula. Heavy Armor should be the easiest method of obtaining a High AC
PRR - Should not scale in such a way that a bonus against a small existing amount > the same bonus applied to an already high amount - Devs need to decide what the Maximum damage to be avoided is and set the PRR amounts based on that number. Example: If the Highest Physical Damage to be avoided is 60% set that as the Highest PRR Mark (should be enough PRR enhancement/gear/abilities to exceed this amount but still have a trade off. Anything above this is lost) This give a set amount and goal levels to achieve. IE if to get 60% damage reduction is 180 PRR, values below this should add the appropriate percent reduction

On character creation I think some review should occur on Enhancement Trees Minimum Level requirements. I'm not thinking 1/5/10/15/20, I'm thinking more 1/2/3/4/5 Levels of the class the Tree is designed for. This will still allow flexibility for splashes but now requires more specialization for higher tier abilities.

Adept of Forms, Master of Forms, Grandmaster of forms Character level should be their Class Level requiring 6/12/18 Monk levels to achieve - Additionally it should be a single Feat that gets better as you gain the Monk levels.

Starla70

04-14-2014, 10:04 PM

I think after playing in the new content the balance is way off. Even as a pretty strong epic group, you can't go in there to learn it, you are dead way to fast. Even the kobalds have more hit points then the entire party. I had one toon that is a 2nd life, and even that made no difference. Yes he stuff in the quests will help, but you have to live long enough to get them. How about we work on balancing the dungeon scaling way before we try to mess with the players toons. Something in that new scaling is seriously off. One more player and it is wipe out time.

Therigar

04-15-2014, 04:20 AM

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced.

Which is not possible in any case so not a valid starting point for the discussion. The real issue is whether it is over-balanced and whether that over-balance is detrimental.

I'm pretty certain that DDO is over-balanced. However, I'm not as certain that the over-balance is detrimental. To the contrary, I think that it is the natural consequence of continued development and player exploitation of the game -- whether in character design or quest completion strategies. What is over-balanced at the present time will become under-balanced as the game continues to develop and as players build for the new content.

As long as the game continues to develop with new quests and challenges different character builds will emerge to meet those challenges. As those different builds emerge some will be more powerful given the present situation. But, that will change when the next major development occurs.

The latest update alters a lot of things by introducing different monster themes. The CITW update changed the role of ranged characters. Similar comparisons can be made as we look back on other updates.

Therefore, I would argue that less is more when seeking to balance characters. It is better to make few changes and to make them only when the intended effect is not occurring rather than to make many changes in hopes of finding balance equilibrium. Equilibrium will never occur -- unless you want to eliminate all but 1 class and 1 build option and gear every character exactly the same way.

IMO that is boring and goes contrary to the spirit of D&D. I think the majority of players do not really think about the character balance issue. They build what they are intrigued with.

FWIW, if you really want to create a better sense of character balance then create quests where no single character (pure or multiclass) can complete but where groups of real, living people running multiple character types with multiple capabilities are needed to reach completion. Party balance has always been more important in D&D than character balance. No single character good at everything but every character good at something vital.

Therigar

04-15-2014, 04:28 AM

I think after playing in the new content the balance is way off.

I have trouble remembering an update where this same complaint was not registered. Yet I noticed 2 things: 1) people who had run the quests on Lamannia seemed to get first day completions including raids if that was part of the update and 2) within a few weeks either Turbine had toned down the quests or players had learned them because the complaints went away.

The fact that there are day 1 completions shows the quests are not too hard. The fact that complaints gradually end suggests to me that people are usually learning the quests.

IMO the biggest reason for early failure is that people are actually pretty bad at the game. They have a 1 size fits all strategy and they can't imagine making any adjustments in order to best new content.

Frankly, I say let them struggle.

Vanhooger

04-16-2014, 11:18 AM

Eh . . . this one I don't see as unbalanced. It's pretty expensive in terms of APs. A lot of my builds don't even bother with one set of these enhancements, never mind two. Most Shiradi builds are getting most of their procs from either SLAs or un-metaed cheap spells anyway.

I don't really have any problem with abilities that reduce the cost of spells. If they were removed, I think players would just use more pots, which I don't really see as an improvement.

Again, I don't really see the harm in abilities that reduce the cost of spells. It doesn't allow anyone to do anything they couldn't otherwise do -- it just reduces the need for potions and consumable resources. Splashing 2 or 4 levels of Favored Soul on an arcane caster is a significant cost, since you lose caster levels and spell slots (and the ability to splash both monk and paladin).

.

Ok, so I'm pure sorc, I want infinite spell point too and no additional spell point cost on maximize as well. No thx, just fix those two.

Free2Pay

04-16-2014, 12:00 PM

The priority in term of character balance should be
1) Buff Bards
2) Buff Barbarians
3) Buff Paladin
4) everything else....

Just get the these 3 classes right first please. At the very least, there should be something enticing for us to consider splashing 1 or 2 levels. Once you got that right then move on to make them enticing for full 20 levels.

Teh_Troll

04-16-2014, 12:29 PM

Therigar

04-16-2014, 12:59 PM

Ok, so I'm pure sorc, I want infinite spell point too and no additional spell point cost on maximize as well. No thx, just fix those two.

I think you overlooked this:

I think players would just use more pots, which I don't really see as an improvement. (color and bolding is mine)

Changing would just mean weakening the players without money (real life money) while those who have ample supplies will just purchase from Turbine the number of mnemonic potions needed to stay filled up on spell points. This is exactly what I did when running casters because I can.

It is a great idea to change this if our goal is to increase cash flow to Turbine but it does nothing to alter the balance -- which is, of course, the point of the thread.

Better would be to create a path by which any blue-bar can achieve comparable results. (And, I'm not sure that they cannot -- rather, I think it might be more a situation of choosing not due to AP cost, destiny choices, etc.)

Thrudh

04-16-2014, 01:44 PM

So monks will choose between 25% hamp or 7 wis, 2 ins con and parrying VIII.
I wonder what is better.

Epic jidz comes with 2 slots (yellow and colorless), plus it has +1 exc Wis too.

I definitely think crit multiplier should move to fire...

Earth right now is pretty much the ONLY stance for melee monks. It has too much.

HungarianRhapsody

04-16-2014, 01:51 PM

Epic jidz comes with 2 slots (yellow and colorless), plus it has +1 exc Wis too.

I definitely think crit multiplier should move to fire...

Earth right now is pretty much the ONLY stance for melee monks. It has too much.

I'm on the fence about crit multiplier moving to fire. On the one hand, Earth has more than the others have for now. On the other hand, Earth is also the only stance with a significant drawback. Most of the time when aggro matters, you don't want to have more aggro. That +hate "bonus" on Earth stance is a serious penalty in raids.

Daitengu

04-17-2014, 01:50 AM

But with a bit of work you can just negate that additional hate if it bothers you. But Earth stance has a dedicated Enhancement tree, defense and offense bonuses and that seems wrong.

capsela

04-22-2014, 05:55 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvZfXipfYcc

fyrst.grok

04-22-2014, 06:18 PM

No, crit should be moved to fire stance, doesnt make sense that its in earth stance.

Would make more sense if fire gave an expanded crit profile imo.
Earth was always 'bigger numbers' while fire was the more aggressive one.
Is anyone even using air and water anymore?

Caligulon

04-22-2014, 06:32 PM

There are tons of great suggestions and several not so great suggestions. One thing I keep hearing is a return to the way things used to be. Such as toon diversity, viability of pure classes, teamwork etc. I've noticed that when certain toons get nerfed, people, often good players, leave the game, or take an extended break. Nerfing IMO is not the solution. The reason people try to make these high dps, high survivability toons, is because they don't want or can't wait an hour to fill a single quest, which IMO is due to people leaving overall low server population.

At least on Cannith, you can't deny that you've seen people come and go with the wind, but I've known many great players leave, maybe because of boredom, maybe because of nerfing etc. ****ing people off isn't going to help the game. You know how easy it is to roll a monk or sorc and be ok? and live through the quest? Is there something that is preventing other classes from being the same way?

My specific suggestions:

1) DC spellcasting - bring it back. lower trash mobs dcs or up the possibility of more DCs from other sources.
2) Every class such have some way or either healing or mitigating damage effectively.
3) Up the DPS of those less popular classes. I enjoyed cleric all 3 lives of it, but that was when there were always lfms up looking for clerics. Some SLAs are a good start.

I think that enticing people to come play DDO is a good thing. It should not be difficult for a noob to come in and learn the ropes without being instakilled, obviously the high end stuff will still be available to the elite players. I think part of that problem is no one ever does anything less than elite. IDK how to fix that.

All I know is that getting more people to come and play and stay long enough to be good is a part of the answer. Nerfing people/builds that get stuff done, that drag noobs through quests and get them xp is not the way. Changes should be positive. Playing a mmorpg, should be fun not punishing. Given that there are tons of choices of what to play why would anyone want to play a game give their time and money to game that punishes them?

Zerkul

04-23-2014, 01:16 AM

Thunderforged Weapons brings imbalances between classes at CAP. All the amount and strength of extra weapon effects, the lack of a good crit profile... Brings in front of the DPS chain all the TWF builds making all THF worthless except for AoE damage where casters are better.

Give all THF something to wish and Barbarians/Fighter some appeal to build for THF or we'll assist in the near future to the extinction of THF builds.

Also give to Cleave Attacks the benefit of weapon alacrity bonuses and double strike bonus. After all these years they still are considered a "per se" animation that doesn't depend from weapon attack speed.

Ivan_Milic

04-23-2014, 12:59 PM

Would make more sense if fire gave an expanded crit profile imo.
Earth was always 'bigger numbers' while fire was the more aggressive one.
Is anyone even using air and water anymore?

Centered kenseis and zeus build are using air for that extra doublestrike, water monkchers when on 10k, or when you need extra saves.

garlor

04-23-2014, 01:05 PM

the problem is NOT that mobs hit too hard, it's that many bosses instakill you on melee AND the low chance to get a real healer

my usual party has a semihealer and we do fine on EE content without monkchers, BUT when somebody brings his fury monkcher most boss fights are A LOT easier, if you nerf the monkcher it will still be a lot easier, it will just last a little longer to finish the fight

how do you tank an EE white dragon on tor without ranged?, he freezes you and kills you in melee, same can be said with many other boss mobs

so it's not as much the problem of the monkcher but the lack of people wanting to heal on quests and the useless a tank is for 99% of the time of the quest

of course with the changes to the unyielding sentinel a tank can selfheal really well, so no real need for a healer, but is useless for 99% of the quest, give tanks a means to do good damage and then switch to "turtle" mode, decreasing damage but increasing ac/prr or whatever

poltt48

04-26-2014, 07:44 AM

Personally I think biggest difference in game is transitioning from heroic content to epic. Some classes have a lot of help with this. Others like artificer has none at all. Same with some enhancements or skills. The iconic rogue chain is a great example of this. Great in heroic but in epic no way your level plus your dex mod is ever going to fail a save on mobs for half damage. Epics CR is just to high for the ability to be feasible at all to use. The classes that can make the transition are those that can get feat or ed to help them with this transaction. Wizzy and sorc would be biggest classes that transition well cause they can get spell pen and dc checks on there spells to help them with mobs high CR in epic content. Some classes though have no chance at all. No one plays a bard or barbarian anymore really.

Candela90

04-27-2014, 05:52 AM

Also the problem pajamas / heavy armor need to be resolved. Pajamas can obtain higher AC and PRR and dodge (like 20% more miss chance) than heavy armor user - how is that fair.
Solution is:
Step 1: Move the +1 crit multiplier from earth stance to fire stance - so they have to choose dps vs defense
Step 2: Give armors DR/everything (or DR/magic or epic) base.
Like: Outfit/robe: 0 DR
Light armor: 5 DR
Medium armor: 10 DR
Heavy armor: 20 DR
And this should stack with items like shadowscale.
Itd still be evasion vs 20 DR (+30 obtainable through shadowscale) - but its better than evasion vs nothing and maybe some people will prefer DR. On EE 20 base DR is not really that much when all spells hit you for full power.

Nestroy

04-28-2014, 10:22 AM

Dalsheel

04-28-2014, 07:52 PM

Centered kenseis and zeus build are using air for that extra doublestrike

This makes no sense to me. They use cleaves for 70% of their attacks, cleaves don't doublestrike. (With the exception of Alpha Strike in Nature's Warrior tree)

mkmcgw17

05-01-2014, 09:52 PM

If you start making balance changes to classes to please the whiners please count on me canceling my sub renewel and quitting the game we need less changes from pnp not more I am on the border already but that kind of **** will do it.

In pnp Monks and Paladins cant multiclass have to be human and can only carry ten magic items. Rangers cant be Lawful Good in pnp. The closer the game gets to pnp the better I'll like it. I think everyone should wake up in starter rags and drop rates should be cut to 10% of what they are. I kid. I play first edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons on paper still.

mkmcgw17

05-01-2014, 09:54 PM

SirValentine

05-02-2014, 05:30 AM

In pnp Monks and Paladins cant multiclass have to be human and can only carry ten magic items. Rangers cant be Lawful Good in pnp.

None of that is true about the version of p&p that DDO is based on (3.5).

Xahtep

05-17-2014, 05:41 AM

Snip/ My specific suggestions:

1) DC spellcasting - bring it back. lower trash mobs dcs or up the possibility of more DCs from other sources. /Snip

The problem with dc casting is that if devs set it for a number attainable by first lifers, toons with multiple past lives, (sorc, wizzy, fvs, whatever) will be in god mode on those same quests

SirValentine

05-17-2014, 08:18 AM

The problem with dc casting is that if devs set it for a number attainable by first lifers, toons with multiple past lives, (sorc, wizzy, fvs, whatever) will be in god mode on those same quests

Not really. Generally speaking, there is only 2 points of DC difference between a first-lifer and a triple-completionist...and it takes 2 feat slots to get that +2, Arcane Initiate, and Completionist. (Yes, there's a couple exceptions; Implosion gets +3 from triple Sorc PLs, for example.) Gearing makes a far greater difference in your DC than PLs.

Now, for Spell Penetration in particular, the big gap exists. 9 points passive bonus is big. But first-lifers can just use different spells/tactics if they don't have the requisite Spell Pen for certain mobs. And those with the PLs ground for them for that benefit. So I don't see that gap as a problem.

Joshguin

05-18-2014, 12:11 AM

I didn't read through all of the pages, but I'm curious as to how the survey linked on the first post will be utilized. I found it to use very vague terms and it was subjective in its design. I struggle to understand how it could yield any results that would adequately provide information to the devs or player base on creating character balance with the exception of the first few questions.
Asking a player to rate a class using the vague term of most/least powerful, but leaving out questions regarding the players preference regarding play style (caster, melee, etc) and choice in playing pure or multi-class builds will provide skewed information. I'm not expecting a PhD level survey, but I was hoping to see something that could provide some definitive data to analyze.

poltt48

05-18-2014, 03:42 AM

Khatzhas

05-18-2014, 05:39 AM

Another big thing on balance that don't see anyone talk about on here is cost of enhancements. On my rogue 60% of his abilities cost 1 point. While on my cleric only 25% of his abilities cost one point. So for the same 80 points on enhancements my rogue is getting a lot more then my cleric.
The costs of enhancements take into account the power I think. So a 2-point enhancement with prerequisites in a class like Rogue is probably more powerful than a 1-point enhancement in Cleric.

bsquishwizzy

05-21-2014, 11:19 PM

Another big thing on balance that don't see anyone talk about on here is cost of enhancements. On my rogue 60% of his abilities cost 1 point. While on my cleric only 25% of his abilities cost one point. So for the same 80 points on enhancements my rogue is getting a lot more then my cleric.

The major difference there is that your cleric gets enhancement AND spells as they level. You average rogue only gets enhancements.

SirValentine

05-22-2014, 02:31 PM

The major difference there is that your cleric gets enhancement AND spells as they level. You average rogue only gets enhancements.

That's like saying, "The major difference there is that your Rogue gets enhancements AND Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and far more skill points and special Rogue bonus feats as they level. Your average Cleric only gets enhancements."

But both are false. Because both classes have their inherent class features, and both have access to the "enhancement" system, too.

Ancient

05-22-2014, 02:42 PM

HungarianRhapsody

05-22-2014, 02:53 PM

Seeing this now, and seeing it more often.

Where are you seeing people who have 2 extra DC pwning content where someone with 2 less DC can't handle it?

...because that's the difference between someone who has completionist vs. someone who has 0 past lives for the instakill spells that allow you to actually dominate content. The Web spell will pick up an additional +3 DC from Cleric lives, but on the big spells that make the big difference, it's just a +2 DC difference.

Now gear, on the other hand... that makes a massive difference. That's a 12 DC difference based on spell schools between no gear and the best gear. Not including bonuses from Tomes and +stat items.

(12 DC difference = 2 DC from augment and 10 DC from spell school item boost).

First life characters can get +DC items just as much as super-completionist past life characters.

SirValentine

05-22-2014, 05:38 PM

Where are you seeing people who have 2 extra DC pwning content where someone with 2 less DC can't handle it?

...because that's the difference between someone who has completionist vs. someone who has 0 past lives for the instakill spells that allow you to actually dominate content.

First life characters can get +DC items just as much as super-completionist past life characters.

That.

(12 DC difference = 2 DC from augment and 10 DC from spell school item boost

10? I got my augment for 2, and 6 on my Thunder Forged weapon Tier 2. Where's the 10 come from? I need to upgrade my gear if I can pick up an extra 4 DC.

letour

05-22-2014, 07:01 PM

Eth

05-23-2014, 07:27 AM

We need more nerfs in ddo and less buff.
I remenber when the enchantement pass was it. Poeple said that mutiliclasse was not viable so they buff( DDO devellopers listen to feedback and apply) that option and today, the community said that there's no reason to stay pure. The moral is do not listen to the community for class balance. They always want more powerfull stuff to be release. Better ED, pretige tree, loot,etc) We have to drop the powerlevel of play to keep DDo from powercreep.
A lot of thing were made non-viable because of powercreep (like epic gear, named loot). Please nerf some of the powerfull. You will not have to balance all the conents for those new powerfull toonlike you did with MOTU. It will saved dev time to do those changes.

Thanks for listening.

Nerfs would only be viable if turbine did them properly. But when they nerf something that is considered OP, they don't balance it - they make it completely useless.
That's why most don't trust them when it comes to nerfs.

Just look at some of the things people suggest here to nerf/balance shiradis and monkchers.
Balancing is hard. Breaking is easy.

Ivan_Milic

05-23-2014, 08:25 AM

No to nerfs, they make things worthless, just like they did with nightmare, terror, tharaak wraps, vorpal weapons etc.

Xezrak

05-25-2014, 07:22 PM

Uska

05-25-2014, 08:47 PM

In pnp Monks and Paladins cant multiclass have to be human and can only carry ten magic items. Rangers cant be Lawful Good in pnp. The closer the game gets to pnp the better I'll like it. I think everyone should wake up in starter rags and drop rates should be cut to 10% of what they are. I kid. I play first edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons on paper still.

Completely and utterly wrong on Rangers they can be any good alignment in previous editions and Monks and Paladins can multiclass in 3.5 just with severe restrictions I suggest you research better before making claims. Its Druids that cant be Lawful good.

letour

05-27-2014, 11:08 AM

Don't nerf anything just make new quests harder and bring up the weaker classes.

Nerfing can affect builds that are not all that powerful.

In terms of how 'balanced' classes should be I think it’s fine if a particular class gets more kills than any class all the time, in a game with this much build variation it’s impossible not to have a ‘most powerful’ class. The level of balance we should have is such that no class is excluded from EE because it’s too weak. I remember when melees were so powerful raids use to limit to 2 healers and maybe 1 or 2 arcanes for buffs and rest all melee for dps. As long as each class is not being excluded from quest/raids or at most only 1 of is bought into a quest then no need to balance any further than that, because part of the fun is designing a build and then being able to play it, but unfortunately these days if you make a viable build after a month or so it gets nerfed.

Also each time a class is nerfed you will lose part of the player base, if you buff a class you will loose a lot less players than if you nerf a popular class.
Well you know that buffing does exact same thing as nerfing and cause a lot more problem . It's all in your head. Well they will have to buff content when everyone will be steamrolling epic elite. Epic elite will become easy because everyone will so powerfull. About losing or not losing player base, it's because do not understand that nerfing is better for the game then buffing. They only care about themself so when they see nerfing in patch note they start being frustrated.

Seikojin

05-27-2014, 11:59 AM

I think https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/442759-Suggestions-to-boost-Melee-Defenses would be a good place to start.

The longer I thought about it, the more I felt mobs themselves aren't the problem. Sure they have inflated stats. Who wouldn't throw a 0 or two at the end of a mob that dies in 1 swing?

I think that a first lifer, with the best earnable gear, should, in a party of 4 (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard), provide enough of their role to pull the group through Elite of their level 90% of the time on Heroic and 80% of the time on Epic. And that Past lives boost that gap to 100% Heroic, 90% Epic.

If a person builds themselves to be a party of 4 in one character, they will lack in areas actual party members would not (sp spread, skill levels, dps, ac, spell selection, etc.). Therefore soloing, a first lifer should have, elite at level, a 70% chance on Heroic and a 60% chance on Epic to pull through. Past lives should boost it, but a single player with past lives and best gear, should have to crawl to 100% through a quest. Making the time sink strong enough to push them more toward pugging at least. I would say PL's should offer 10% boost on heroic and epic respectively, boost to helping succeed.

Mind you, that is all at level.

What can help get there? I say remove blanket immunities. Add special mobs with specific roles and AI. Change DA to not slow the player, but alter the movement and fortifications of the enemy AI. The game currently has mob packs. So take advantage of this. Each pack should come with an Orange named Taskmaster. As such, its sole purpose is to buff and support the mobs in its pack. On Casual, no taskmasters. On Normal, 1 taskmaster per 2 party members (hirelings's and pets count), on hard 1 taskmaster per 2 (healing) +1 offensive taskmaster, and on elite, 1 taskmaster per 2 (healing) + 2 offensive taskmasters. So with a party of six, On casual, no taskmasters per pack, on normal, 3 healing taskmasters per pack, on hard, 3 healing and 1 offensive, and on elite, 3 healing and 2 offensive. This is per pack of mobs, so it should add a significant amount of mobs that offer a variety of challenge.

DA. When the quest starts, the taskmasters throw relative, at level (for their cr) buffs on their mobs. Most quests don't take that long, so the buffs should persist for use. They can be dispelled. The taskmaster knows this and is willing to reapply buffs if not harried by combat. DA alert 1 should change unengaged mobs to start spawning ambush traps and move back to the boss. Ambush traps should spawn ranged and melee at DA1. DA2, the ambush traps include more melee and a couple of healers. DA3 should include more melee, healers, and some offensive casters. DA4, same as 3, but with some spellward like traps. Damage (DA4), Slow (DA5), Debuff + PWStun (DA6). The Heroic Dungeons should only be able to reach DA 3. If you get to DA 3/6, by the time to get to the boss mob, it will have a small army to take down as well. Even further discouraging zerging. And if not, it would be a proper zerg battle with a youtube vid achievement. LOL

Psiandron

05-27-2014, 12:58 PM

That survey is terrible. Rate everything in a vacuum? You really think that will amount to useful information?

<A phenomenal amount of good points>
Sigh.

Yeah, this ^^

I mean really? How could you possibly ferret out even a dram of useful information from that "survey". This game is not so simple in its basics so as to allow answers on a simple 1-5 dichotomous scale?

The first step in problem solving is correctly defining what the problem is. From what I've seen you have failed on that very first step.

This is not a pvp game. Pvp was just sort of tacked on to provide an added enticement and broaden the game's interest base. You want to balance the characters? Just make them all the same. No classes, no choice in what you get when leveling, just take what the game gives you. Balance achieved. All that's left is to hand out final paychecks, unplug the servers and go home.

You need to scrounge up a DMG (any version except v.4 because I refuse to believe that anything good was contained in that version of pnp, apologies to fans thereof) and read what it says about the job of the DM. Read about how essential it is to customize the adventure(s) to the party concerned and adjusting for the groups make-up both in terms of the characters and the players. This is where there's a real balance issue in DDO. In many ways, given the level of technology and sophistication we currently have, this just isn't even possible. However, that doesn't mean that improvement isn't possible.

Keep in mind that no one who is truly good at anything ever defines themselves and their abilities as compared to another person. You play the game, not the other player.

Keeping all that in mind, please just close this thread, disable the links to that silly questionnaire, have a meeting and redefine your questions to us, the players. Then, open a new thread and ask us.

That's what I think anyway.

Joshguin

05-30-2014, 11:09 PM

Yeah, this ^^

I mean really? How could you possibly ferret out even a dram of useful information from that "survey". This game is not so simple in its basics so as to allow answers on a simple 1-5 dichotomous scale?

The first step in problem solving is correctly defining what the problem is. From what I've seen you have failed on that very first step.

This is not a pvp game. Pvp was just sort of tacked on to provide an added enticement and broaden the game's interest base. You want to balance the characters? Just make them all the same. No classes, no choice in what you get when leveling, just take what the game gives you. Balance achieved. All that's left is to hand out final paychecks, unplug the servers and go home.

.....

Keep in mind that no one who is truly good at anything ever defines themselves and their abilities as compared to another person. You play the game, not the other player.

Keeping all that in mind, please just close this thread, disable the links to that silly questionnaire, have a meeting and redefine your questions to us, the players. Then, open a new thread and ask us.

That's what I think anyway.

I fully agree with the above. Balance will be a continual problem due to the reason of my enjoyment of the game. I hate cookie cutter MMO's with very little ability for individual customization (ie. multiclassing or distrobution of character stats/feats). If I want to make an uber nuking self healing Bladeforged Sorcerer, or if I want to create chaos with guildes and play my drow barbarian diplo-tank so be it (this is really fun and ensures some *** comments when used correctly).
There seems to be a small population of my fellow research and survey lovers here. Might I suggest allowing some of us to develop something that could yield actual results?

Captain_Wizbang

06-04-2014, 10:31 AM

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players. We want to know how often you'd like to see balance changes.

For this thread, we're looking particular at character balance, and how characters compare to one another. To some extent this borders on discussion of player characters vs. quest difficulty (and all that entails), but the focus here is player characters compared against other player characters (but not PvP). At some other time we may also look at other balance issues, such as Normal/Hard/Elite, or more specific issues like items, quests, monsters, traps, raids, or boss monsters.

Why does Character Balance matter?

We'd like a variety of roles and styles of play to be supported at a high level of play, without some builds that look like fun feeling bad to play because other characters seem so much more powerful. We've heard some level of concern over these topics and related issues. Perfect balance doesn't need to be achieved, and probably can't be achieved, but most or all playstyles should feel competitive. (We recognize that creating terrible character builds with the vast possibilities offered in DDO is always going to be possible, but we can probably all agree that's not the real issue.)

In short, we want you to be able to play what you want to play, have fun doing it, and feel like you can be a worthwhile contributor to a party (if that's how you choose to play).

Why isn't every character made stronger, to match the strongest characters already out there?

Challenge: We want to be able to provide challenges to those who seek that kind of gameplay. There should be limits to player-character power in order to achieve this, when comparing player characters against monsters, traps, bosses, etc.
Understanding what's already there: Minimizing changes also allows everyone to keep a consistent idea of what exists. If almost everything changes, it's like starting over from scratch, and therefore much harder to get everything right.
Time and resources matter: We can save a great deal of time by only changing a few overpowered abilities, rather than changing all other characters, monsters, traps, and quests to match those few most overpowered abilities or features. If we can spend a day or a week pulling back on the strongest rather than months increasing everything else, that leaves us far more time to implement new features.

What are some examples of things that could be better balanced?

We're keenly aware that each player probably has some topics they are concerned about, and we don't like to break characters or take away fun things that are already there. However, we may have been too cautious about balance changes in the past, especially after a new ability or feature has been launched. We'd like to know if you'd prefer changes to come more quickly, or if we should sit back and let you guys show us what can really be done before making changes.

That said, some broad areas that we know perhaps could use some consideration:

Ranged combat vs. Melee Combat vs. Spellcasting, at all character levels. As an example, not so long ago, ranged combat was largely considered inferior to melee combat. We made some conscious decisions to try to improve the viability of ranged combat. That's at least a partial success, but has brought along some issues of its own.
Class & Race Balance: They don't all need to have identical appeal from a power perspective (as there are other reasons to play any class), but we should try to get them close enough that it doesn't feel bad to play any particular race or class, or that you feel forced to take any levels in a particular class to feel powerful.
Epic Destinies: We know some destinies are more popular than others, and also considered more powerful. Sometimes this is a result of unintended bugs. This could include discussions of Twists of Fate, so individual abilities vs. other abilities can still matter, though we don't expect to make every ability equally viable as a Twist of Fate (for its tier). Abilities that can't be twisted (Innate abilities and tier 5 & 6) should be largely considered as a group when comparing entire Destinies.

This does mean potentially looking at things that rhyme with ten-thousand cars, many fought, caster's fritz, chirashi cambrian, the bunk crass, or american overtoad.

We're happy to hear general thoughts on character balance, what you'd like to see, and also why you'd like to see certain changes (or non-changes.) We don't want to change any particular things without good reasons, so convince us!

We'd love to also get feedback from as many of you as possible from this survey!

Character Balance Survey (http://ddobugs.turbine.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=24037&surveyID=332&type=web)

Question, with the advent of the swf in U22, what if any feedback are you willing or obliged to offer the player base as a result of this thread. Thanks.

maverik99vc

06-06-2014, 11:21 AM

I don't think you can balance this game because there are just to many options. I don't think you even see what's broken, what's out of the line, what's useless/redundant, underpowered or overpowered because
you don't know how to add and subtract, multiply and divide... You don't have a system. You have a mess and you cannot handle it.

Your best option is to continue to do things the way you've been doing them all these years. You'll sell something, entertain a few people and that's it.

You need more than a few brain farts and an afternoon to generate a plan to balance this game. (if you pardon the expression)

eachna_gislin

06-12-2014, 04:31 AM

I'd like to add another broad area to that list: pure-class versus multi-class.

I feel that not only should every single class be viable and able to contribute, but that every single class when pure-classed should be viable and able to contribute.

For me, that should be the basic starting point for balancing classes, and multi-class measured against that yard-stick.

I don't mind if someone figures out clever, synergistic combinations that are a bit more powerful overall, but there should be trade-offs. Multi-classing should never be a no-brainer, and pure-class should never be an outright bad choice.

Traditionally in D&D, multi-classes, being less specialized, had less raw power, balanced with more versatility. It seems in some cases in DDO, they get more versatility AND more power, making pure-classes strictly inferior.

The enhancement pass contributed a lot to this. I think a hard look at capstones is in order.

And, though I know some people will hate it, perhaps revisiting the class levels needed for each tier of enhancement. Personally, I think 1/3/6/9/12 would be more appropriate than 1/2/3/4/5.

I agree with all of these points. I tend to play pure class divines. I do have a couple favor-farming rogues, a challenge monk, and a rogue/monk acrobat. My go-to toons are clerics and paladins.

After the low point of the Protection tree, Clerics have been the recipients of a lot of positive and balanced changes. Warpriest still sucks, but is significantly better than Protection. Heck, it's actually better than the travesty that are the paladin prestiges. Divine Disciple is one of the best designed prestiges in the game, and I personally feel the capstone is worth giving up evasion. The rebalancing in the divine epic destinies and the new Divine Crusader prestige was nicely done. No one is picking on me for playing pure-class clerics, even with the broken DC casting.

But it's nuts that I should be considering splashing 5 levels of fighter (for feats + enhancements) or 5 levels of cleric (for t4 warpriest and radiant aura) on a paladin because..once I have Zeal, I have nothing worth taking in the class. Or, that my acrobat "needs" 2-6 monk in order to get the most from her dex-based halfling healing dragonmark stick build (which should not necessarily synergize with monk, but, EVERYTHING does). Or that a monk-splashed cleric in water stance somehow ends up with more wisdom than a pure cleric. Or, that 2 levels of paladin and an ED twist give you a huge increase in both saving throws (which should be enough on its own) _and_ a valuable strength/tactics buff. There's many others, but these are the ones that stand out as a player of divines (plus acrobat).

It seemed like the 1/2/3/4/5 splits were meant to "encourage" multi-classing. It turned into "forcing" multi-classing as staying pure is weakens most characters. Also, DC-based play is broken in epic levels. Frankly, I don't think it should be abandoned. It can be fixed (and it _appears_ devs are looking at interconnected changes that will fix it). Stat boots have to be brought in line with each other, which basically means that the unbalanced stacking Strength boots need to be torn apart, and AC needs to be fixed. Both of these things are being discussed in other threads.

A lot of feedback was given in discussion/Lama about the poor design behind the tree system and how severely powers were front-loaded into classes. This whole mess is because staff ignored that feedback to push their changes into place. Now, you want to know how to fix it. You fix it by _not_ making every bit of prestige crunch available to anyone with 5 levels in a class. 1/3/6/9/12 in class levels (not character levels) would be a single change that would start to adjust things for the positive. Personally, I think it needs to go back to the older 1/3/6/12/18 split. That would provide a very smooth progression through the levels of a character. Either way, that would only tweak the multi-classing splits by a single level (the vast majority of "cool powers" people want to grab are in the first two tiers).

Another poor change that was implemented (to support the "points in tree" mechanic) was to allow people to buy all ranks of a power once they have access to the tier. In the past, as you gained character levels, higher ranks of prestige powers would reveal themselves.

The old gateway to powers was character levels. The new one is points spent in tree (with character level being a secondary issue). Character level needs to go back to being the primary gateway. The "points spent in tree" mechanic needs to at least be softened and a "character level" check needs to be re-implemented. After that's done, you need to go back and reconsider how the tiers of enhancements work.

Divine might should _not_ front-load every bit of power into the first tier, and only increase the casting time on later tiers. It should give you a small capped boost at the first tier, a level restriction and a higher capped boost at the second tier, and another higher level restriction and an uncapped boost at the third tier.

It should be impossible to achieve a maxed-out divine might on a character that only has two paladin levels. Even worse, it should be impossible to grab Keen Edge/One With the Blade, PLUS, any maxed-out choice T4 (or lower) monk enhancements, PLUS maxed-out divine might, on a single character.

This particular combination should not be the target of nerfing, as all that will happen is people will find a new combination. The ability for anyone to combine that much power from multiple classes should be nerfed.

bsquishwizzy

06-12-2014, 04:32 PM

Ranged combat vs. Melee Combat vs. Spellcasting, at all character levels. As an example, not so long ago, ranged combat was largely considered inferior to melee combat. We made some conscious decisions to try to improve the viability of ranged combat. That's at least a partial success, but has brought along some issues of its own.

This issue all goes away if you a) allow melee to take less damage while swinging away at something, and b) drop the insane DCs of some mobs so that caster CC becomes viable again (of course this only really matters in EE content). It is far more SP efficient for a caster to drop a CC spell, have it land, and let the melees do the DPS work than it is to nuke everything into oblivion. Likewise, if a melee can take less damage doing their job, they become viable.

Spell nuking on EE is an SP sinkhole. From a caster perspective, melee DPS is a “renewable” alternative to a limited resource.

Class & Race Balance: They don't all need to have identical appeal from a power perspective (as there are other reasons to play any class), but we should try to get them close enough that it doesn't feel bad to play any particular race or class, or that you feel forced to take any levels in a particular class to feel powerful.

Nerf Warforged. Lots of benefits, very few weaknesses. I realize it is a Turbine P2W shiny, but that hurts the game as it de-incentivizes playing other races.

Nerf Monk. Again, another P2W scheme that ends up in every build because…well…there is no incentive to use anything else.

Epic Destinies: We know some destinies are more popular than others, and also considered more powerful. Sometimes this is a result of unintended bugs. This could include discussions of Twists of Fate, so individual abilities vs. other abilities can still matter, though we don't expect to make every ability equally viable as a Twist of Fate (for its tier). Abilities that can't be twisted (Innate abilities and tier 5 & 6) should be largely considered as a group when comparing entire Destinies.[/list]
This does mean potentially looking at things that rhyme with ten-thousand cars, many fought, caster's fritz, chirashi cambrian, the bunk crass, or american overtoad.

Magister is a joke. Nothing there to twist. It is a way for me to basically build INT and DCs for my spell school, and that’s it. The summon? It’s pitiful. The whole destiny needs an overhaul.

mkmcgw17

07-09-2014, 10:21 AM

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players. We want to know how often you'd like to see balance changes.

For this thread, we're looking particular at character balance, and how characters compare to one another. To some extent this borders on discussion of player characters vs. quest difficulty (and all that entails), but the focus here is player characters compared against other player characters (but not PvP). At some other time we may also look at other balance issues, such as Normal/Hard/Elite, or more specific issues like items, quests, monsters, traps, raids, or boss monsters.

Why does Character Balance matter?

We'd like a variety of roles and styles of play to be supported at a high level of play, without some builds that look like fun feeling bad to play because other characters seem so much more powerful. We've heard some level of concern over these topics and related issues. Perfect balance doesn't need to be achieved, and probably can't be achieved, but most or all playstyles should feel competitive. (We recognize that creating terrible character builds with the vast possibilities offered in DDO is always going to be possible, but we can probably all agree that's not the real issue.)

In short, we want you to be able to play what you want to play, have fun doing it, and feel like you can be a worthwhile contributor to a party (if that's how you choose to play).

Why isn't every character made stronger, to match the strongest characters already out there?

Challenge: We want to be able to provide challenges to those who seek that kind of gameplay. There should be limits to player-character power in order to achieve this, when comparing player characters against monsters, traps, bosses, etc.
Understanding what's already there: Minimizing changes also allows everyone to keep a consistent idea of what exists. If almost everything changes, it's like starting over from scratch, and therefore much harder to get everything right.
Time and resources matter: We can save a great deal of time by only changing a few overpowered abilities, rather than changing all other characters, monsters, traps, and quests to match those few most overpowered abilities or features. If we can spend a day or a week pulling back on the strongest rather than months increasing everything else, that leaves us far more time to implement new features.

What are some examples of things that could be better balanced?

We're keenly aware that each player probably has some topics they are concerned about, and we don't like to break characters or take away fun things that are already there. However, we may have been too cautious about balance changes in the past, especially after a new ability or feature has been launched. We'd like to know if you'd prefer changes to come more quickly, or if we should sit back and let you guys show us what can really be done before making changes.

That said, some broad areas that we know perhaps could use some consideration:

Ranged combat vs. Melee Combat vs. Spellcasting, at all character levels. As an example, not so long ago, ranged combat was largely considered inferior to melee combat. We made some conscious decisions to try to improve the viability of ranged combat. That's at least a partial success, but has brought along some issues of its own.
Class & Race Balance: They don't all need to have identical appeal from a power perspective (as there are other reasons to play any class), but we should try to get them close enough that it doesn't feel bad to play any particular race or class, or that you feel forced to take any levels in a particular class to feel powerful.
Epic Destinies: We know some destinies are more popular than others, and also considered more powerful. Sometimes this is a result of unintended bugs. This could include discussions of Twists of Fate, so individual abilities vs. other abilities can still matter, though we don't expect to make every ability equally viable as a Twist of Fate (for its tier). Abilities that can't be twisted (Innate abilities and tier 5 & 6) should be largely considered as a group when comparing entire Destinies.
This does mean potentially looking at things that rhyme with ten-thousand cars, many fought, caster's fritz, chirashi cambrian, the bunk crass, or american overtoad.

We're happy to hear general thoughts on character balance, what you'd like to see, and also why you'd like to see certain changes (or non-changes.) We don't want to change any particular things without good reasons, so convince us!

We'd love to also get feedback from as many of you as possible from this survey!

Character Balance Survey (http://ddobugs.turbine.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=24037&surveyID=332&type=web)

I prefer to play an older style of the game with a balanced party. A healer a tank a couple dps melee a arcane and a trapper. The new enhancement system has made this style of team play almost obsolete with the shift toward all self healing characters with evasion. Any changes you could make to try to make the game more team oriented would be appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to take player input.

Zasral

07-18-2014, 07:36 PM

Free2Pay

07-20-2014, 01:46 AM

Class Balancing - the medicine - can be mistaken for the poison if the dose is too strong or it's side effects are too great. Similar to cancer, imbalance should be detected early and regular checkups performed to nip it in its bud. However in MMO, game imbalance often ran out of control and any last ditch balancing attempts came in too little too late.

IMO it's easy to identify class imbalance and ironically the best method is PvP. And the real reason PvP is meaningless in DDO is because some classes are just so much better - hint blue bars. Always was, always will be. It wouldn't be an issue if the PvP advantages don't spillover into PvE. But it does, and it doesn't help to bury one's head in the sands.

... If anyone, at any point in this thread, brings up PvP balance, I strongly encourage you to disregard any further input from them. . . .

@Cardtrick : Why?

mrunlimited

07-20-2014, 11:36 PM

Game balance in the current state of ddo is going to be rather difficult to tweak without causing large consequences. Even slight changes here and there that poeple do not think will have a lot of impact can have huge changes. For example, lower saves on epic monsters seems like it helps casters out a little. Your wizards are going to be able to still insta kill things like they can now and have left over room to up their damage on red names. This makes nukers less desirable and hybrids like bards more unbalanced. Another example is mob hp and damage they deal. Nerf mob damage and suddenly classes with less survival become better and classes with higher survival become boring. Too much or too little mob hp impacts every class in some way. I am by no means saying any of these things are properly balance as of now but that it is incredibly challenging to balance these and class changes at the same time. Really you need at least one of these as a constant rather than have them both changing.

This brings me to my real point. First off, not every class has to be balanced in regards to another. Its probably not possible ad also isnt fun. Not every class needs to be able to solo ees either( I dont think any class really should be able to with the exception being in cases of really good players being able to as an extreme challenge). What every class needs is to be balanced in regards to fun. Every pure class should feel fun to play. That means that they have abilities that progressively get better the higher level you go in the class and have some role to play. I feel that cap stones overall need to be appealing, t5 abilities need to be good and require more levels in the base class to reach the top, and multi-classing should really feel like you are giving something up to gain something else you want. Right now multiclassing is really give up nothing to gain a cornerstone ability of another class. With this you have a bunch of diluted characters that dont feel like a fighter or a rogue or a monk or a paladin but rather a hodge podge confused creature that just happens to be the most efficient killing machine on the planet through dabbling in a little of every walk of life. In pnp, your prestige classes were usually 10 levels with the best ability at lvl 10.

Right now, I think you guys have a few great ideas in motion that are headed in the right direction. Firstly, these confused character builds are mainly due to the inadequacies of damage mitigation in armor vs evasion. Players need to fear getting hit if they arent wearing heavier armor, they have displacement and dodge but this should by no means make them feel like they should be in the middle of combat for any length of time. This is the start of making fighters paladins and clerics more desirable. They also need the ability to make a choice of dps or tanking with survival going up or down some to compensate for increased damage. But a plate wearing dps fighter or paladin should still be able to live much longer than a rogue or bard in light armor. With increased risk of death, cloth casters would want melees for more than just sp conservation, they would be a lifeline to increase their own survival.

So on that note, you guys are also looking at improving character trees. That is great. Some classes dont need super "buffs", just more variety and that is what will please people. To clarify, take fighters. They have a tank tree(which once the mitigation changes are in place is a solid choice if they wish to tank) and they have kensai. Kensai is a nifty idea and is good, but requires monk levels and to be centered. They have no real decent dps option if they dont wish to be a pajama weaing multiclasser. Im not saying they need an armor wearing dps tree that one hit kills everything, but they could use a dps option that lets them feel like a fighter. Same thing with paladins. Not every paladin wants to be sword and board. Some like to drop the holy thunderforce of a giant hammer on their foes skulls. More options does require a lot of work, not just in creating them but also balancing them in mind with the other trees and other classes but you already have a lot of tested and true places to start drawing ideas from(note limiting cores and tiered abilities with higher class level requirements helps balance these trees with respect to multiclassing).

I will keep my thoughts from going any further for now but I will post some others in the future. I will say that the devs here are being accountable for their game and are making an effort to fix things and that is admirable. Doing something rather than just letting the game rot into non-existance is a better choice even if they mess up and over power some things and create more temporary inbalance. Keep up the good work guys and just know that not every player expects your decisions to be perfect, we just wish to see things happening. Change is a process, and you cant always take steps forward without sometimes taking a few back.

Kalimah

08-05-2014, 10:42 AM

I've played several mmo's over the years. A lot of the once great, but have failed games, started failing when they began worrying over class balance. I have stopped playing several mmo's after putting many hours into making a toon the way I want it, only to have it changed/nurfed to death before I could enjoy it. Please don't go down this road.

I also beg you to keep this firmly in mind Devs. Who gives a flip about balance if the game sucks. That said, I do like a lot of the changes you guys are making...it just seems like a lot of changes going on at once and that good ole Murphy and his non intended consequences always is lurking.

mkmcgw17

11-12-2014, 07:52 AM

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players. We want to know how often you'd like to see balance changes.

For this thread, we're looking particular at character balance, and how characters compare to one another. To some extent this borders on discussion of player characters vs. quest difficulty (and all that entails), but the focus here is player characters compared against other player characters (but not PvP). At some other time we may also look at other balance issues, such as Normal/Hard/Elite, or more specific issues like items, quests, monsters, traps, raids, or boss monsters.

Why does Character Balance matter?

We'd like a variety of roles and styles of play to be supported at a high level of play, without some builds that look like fun feeling bad to play because other characters seem so much more powerful. We've heard some level of concern over these topics and related issues. Perfect balance doesn't need to be achieved, and probably can't be achieved, but most or all playstyles should feel competitive. (We recognize that creating terrible character builds with the vast possibilities offered in DDO is always going to be possible, but we can probably all agree that's not the real issue.)

In short, we want you to be able to play what you want to play, have fun doing it, and feel like you can be a worthwhile contributor to a party (if that's how you choose to play).

Why isn't every character made stronger, to match the strongest characters already out there?

Challenge: We want to be able to provide challenges to those who seek that kind of gameplay. There should be limits to player-character power in order to achieve this, when comparing player characters against monsters, traps, bosses, etc.
Understanding what's already there: Minimizing changes also allows everyone to keep a consistent idea of what exists. If almost everything changes, it's like starting over from scratch, and therefore much harder to get everything right.
Time and resources matter: We can save a great deal of time by only changing a few overpowered abilities, rather than changing all other characters, monsters, traps, and quests to match those few most overpowered abilities or features. If we can spend a day or a week pulling back on the strongest rather than months increasing everything else, that leaves us far more time to implement new features.

What are some examples of things that could be better balanced?

We're keenly aware that each player probably has some topics they are concerned about, and we don't like to break characters or take away fun things that are already there. However, we may have been too cautious about balance changes in the past, especially after a new ability or feature has been launched. We'd like to know if you'd prefer changes to come more quickly, or if we should sit back and let you guys show us what can really be done before making changes.

That said, some broad areas that we know perhaps could use some consideration:

Ranged combat vs. Melee Combat vs. Spellcasting, at all character levels. As an example, not so long ago, ranged combat was largely considered inferior to melee combat. We made some conscious decisions to try to improve the viability of ranged combat. That's at least a partial success, but has brought along some issues of its own.
Class & Race Balance: They don't all need to have identical appeal from a power perspective (as there are other reasons to play any class), but we should try to get them close enough that it doesn't feel bad to play any particular race or class, or that you feel forced to take any levels in a particular class to feel powerful.
Epic Destinies: We know some destinies are more popular than others, and also considered more powerful. Sometimes this is a result of unintended bugs. This could include discussions of Twists of Fate, so individual abilities vs. other abilities can still matter, though we don't expect to make every ability equally viable as a Twist of Fate (for its tier). Abilities that can't be twisted (Innate abilities and tier 5 & 6) should be largely considered as a group when comparing entire Destinies.
This does mean potentially looking at things that rhyme with ten-thousand cars, many fought, caster's fritz, chirashi cambrian, the bunk crass, or american overtoad.

We're happy to hear general thoughts on character balance, what you'd like to see, and also why you'd like to see certain changes (or non-changes.) We don't want to change any particular things without good reasons, so convince us!

We'd love to also get feedback from as many of you as possible from this survey!

Character Balance Survey (http://ddobugs.turbine.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=24037&surveyID=332&type=web)

So update 24 powered up the Paladin once again making it now by far far far the most powerful class ever in ddo for no reason I can see its beyond comprehension. Are you trying to make it a single class game all Paladins? That's what you've done on the server I'm on. The kensai tree has been broken since the day the new system came out. Deadly strike and shot don't work. Nobody plays a kensai fighter I've tried to make it work for four lives it doesn't play well and is only used for splashes on other classes. The core class of dnd has been totally overlooked. Do you have any intention of at least fixing the top tier enhancements? Please for the love of God stop powering up the Paladin. Nerf the Pally. Nerf the Monk. Nerf the AA Ranger. Your ruining the game little by little get a players handbook and a dmg and read every sentence Gary wrote.

stricq

11-12-2014, 10:55 AM

So update 24 powered up the Paladin once again making it now by far far far the most powerful class ever in ddo for no reason I can see its beyond comprehension. Are you trying to make it a single class game all Paladins? That's what you've done on the server I'm on. The kensai tree has been broken since the day the new system came out. Deadly strike and shot don't work. Nobody plays a kensai fighter I've tried to make it work for four lives it doesn't play well and is only used for splashes on other classes. The core class of dnd has been totally overlooked. Do you have any intention of at least fixing the top tier enhancements? Please for the love of God stop powering up the Paladin. Nerf the Pally. Nerf the Monk. Nerf the AA Ranger. Your ruining the game little by little get a players handbook and a dmg and read every sentence Gary wrote.

Update 24 is not released yet, not sure what you are tell about there. Update 24 is for Barbarians, not Paladins.

In any case, I bug reported the Kensei problems over a year ago and no response, so yeah, I will agree that Turbine has dropped Kensei on the floor along with a whole host of other major issues with enhancements.

mkmcgw17

11-21-2014, 04:46 AM

I'm curious why you continue to power up the paladin even though they're four or five times more powerful than every other class. I'm also wondering with all the talk of fixing melee why haven't you fixed Kensai. Deadly strike/shot hasn't worked since the new enhancement system came out. Kensai (dps fighter) the core of dungeons and dragons has been relegated to a splash class for monks and rangers. Try a straight kensai see how well they play. Back to the Paladin is this marketings way of giving new players the ability to do any quest elite so they don't feel gimpy? I have a feeling the over powering of the Paladin (its so obvious they're far far more powerful than any other class) is a planned occurrence and I'd like to know why. Thank You. 50% of the server I am on are now Paladins. Yawn. Every party is three to five of them and now not only are they immune to most damage now they have dps too. Perhaps you should just give them all the items and levels at the start make it a little easier. What's that Gary? Yah I know its sad what they're doing to your game buddy why'd you have to die?

Annyee

11-21-2014, 07:14 AM

Annyee

11-21-2014, 08:02 AM

To be honest in the topic is going to also be rather harsh. Flame hats on....

DDo game balance is broken because the Devs broke it and then did nothing to really address it. You could blame several ablities (Fury Shot)(SWF) but at the core it is the Devs who thought these things were good ideas and more Devs that did nothing to address issues when they were brought up. It's not the players who put these things into DDo. The players can only use the tools they are given. Now we are left with a game that is in really bad shape.

Best advise is for the game developers to learn the game. Second piece of advice is to listen to intelligent players. When it is brought up that something can be abused or is unbalanced pay attention.

Uska

11-21-2014, 11:01 AM

I prefer to play an older style of the game with a balanced party. A healer a tank a couple dps melee a arcane and a trapper. The new enhancement system has made this style of team play almost obsolete with the shift toward all self healing characters with evasion. Any changes you could make to try to make the game more team oriented would be appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to take player input.

This but sadly I don't see it happening really sad when a great MMO becomes a game of solo players

Oxarhamar

11-21-2014, 11:28 AM

This but sadly I don't see it happening really sad when a great MMO becomes a game of solo players

Oh the great MMOs that force grouping.

Log on

Global chat: LF Healer
Global chat: LF Tank

All day everyday, yeah that's quality game play.

MisterTee01

11-21-2014, 01:13 PM

To me, balance is when builds compliment each other and can encourage grouping to defeat content. To make this happen you not only will have to look at each classes and various multi-class builds, but also in the content you design. The two go hand in hand.

could not have said it better myself.

MangLord

11-22-2014, 06:39 AM

This does mean potentially looking at things that rhyme with ten-thousand cars, many fought, caster's fritz, chirashi cambrian, the bunk crass, or american overtoad.

Please be very careful with Manyshot. Yes, it's exploited with a monkcher build, but for a pure ranger it's something we desperately need to get ourselves and friends out of trouble. Rangers are still a good class (not as great as they used to be with much needed melee enhancement passes). I love my Elf Ranger, and I tend to save manyshots and slayer arrows for special occasions. The cooldowns are so long that I don't want to just throw them out like candy, and then have 30 seconds left when all my friends are dying on a tough boss fight. I tend to stick with regular bow damage, mostly due to the fact that all my doubleshot bonuses are null and void for a minute after I click manyshot. I'd like to see the doubleshot penalty done away with for pure rangers. I'd feel less stingy about using manyshot and not save it only for boss fights and emergency situations.

Also, I've found that I'm at about a 50% success rate of actually stacking Masters Blitz before it times out. I play a Drow Swashbuckler, and even with a fresh Haste, I sometimes find it difficult get stacks going. This can be issue when a raid is depending on me for trash duty, especially in the Thunderholme raids. For an epic moment (yes, a lot of people abuse it) I'd like to get more than 20 seconds out of it better than half the time. Clearly the team has adjusted the stacking to be far less than 10%. I can easily get a vorpal hit, which is only 5%, at least once before the timer expires.

You also may want to take another look at Fatesinger Turn The Tide. The fact that the bonus Sonic and Light damage don't work on bosses is ludicrous. For the cooldown, the length it lasts and the fact that its an epic moment, I'd like to apply the extra damage for the special moments that I'm saving it.

Annyee

11-24-2014, 03:04 AM

Please be very careful with Manyshot. Yes, it's exploited with a monkcher build, but for a pure ranger it's something we desperately need to get ourselves and friends out of trouble. Rangers are still a good class (not as great as they used to be with much needed melee enhancement passes). I love my Elf Ranger, and I tend to save manyshots and slayer arrows for special occasions. The cooldowns are so long that I don't want to just throw them out like candy, and then have 30 seconds left when all my friends are dying on a tough boss fight. I tend to stick with regular bow damage, mostly due to the fact that all my doubleshot bonuses are null and void for a minute after I click manyshot. I'd like to see the doubleshot penalty done away with for pure rangers. I'd feel less stingy about using manyshot and not save it only for boss fights and emergency situations.

Also, I've found that I'm at about a 50% success rate of actually stacking Masters Blitz before it times out. I play a Drow Swashbuckler, and even with a fresh Haste, I sometimes find it difficult get stacks going. This can be issue when a raid is depending on me for trash duty, especially in the Thunderholme raids. For an epic moment (yes, a lot of people abuse it) I'd like to get more than 20 seconds out of it better than half the time. Clearly the team has adjusted the stacking to be far less than 10%. I can easily get a vorpal hit, which is only 5%, at least once before the timer expires.

You also may want to take another look at Fatesinger Turn The Tide. The fact that the bonus Sonic and Light damage don't work on bosses is ludicrous. For the cooldown, the length it lasts and the fact that its an epic moment, I'd like to apply the extra damage for the special moments that I'm saving it.

The most OP thing about Manyshot is combining it with Adrenaline. IMO Adrenaline should not apply to ranged.