Prestige Enhancement List (Holiday Bonus!)

[Eladrin]

Prestige En (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101010.jpg?t=1243551705)hancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Favored Soul: Divine Avenger, Beacon of Hope, Angel of Vengeance
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Acolyte of the Skin, Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Cannith Dragonmark Heir, Deneith Dragonmark Heir, Orien Dragonmark Heir, Tharashk Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Kundarak Dragonmark Heir, Dwarven Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Jorasco Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Warforged Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]
Drow: Scorpion Wraith [Counts as Rogue]

[Tarrant]

Happy New Year! As a special bonus, Eladrin has provided an overview of future class enhancements. Enjoy!

[Gratch]

Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

Awesomeness. (Please include the bullrush aspect of the Juggernaut. I want to topple some fools. Thanks)
PrC Link (http://www.geocities.com/eberron/juggernaut.html)

Any Eladrin guesses (off the record) on which PrE's coming in 10 & 11? Is Mod 10 the caster mod and Mod 11 "the rest"?

[Furysetzer]

Is Purple Dragon Knight the TWF line for Fighters and Radiant Servant the healing line for Clerics? Please please say yes. :)

[Xanstrollinoax]

whats the info on Juggernaut....I'm not familiar with it

[Demoyn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Purple Dragon Knight a Forgotten Realms-only prestige? Is this a veiled attempt at admitting the mistake of choosing Eberron for a setting?

[nbhs275]

whats the info on Juggernaut....I'm not familiar with it

let me find my ebberon book to give you the exact info but i know it gives you armor spikes, increases their slam dice(not something included in DDO) and makes you more resistant to divine healing.

[Lymnus]

Drow don't get any PrE.
I see how it is.

=p

[Laith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Purple Dragon Knight a Forgotten Realms-only prestige? Is this a veiled attempt at admitting the mistake of choosing Eberron for a setting?PDK is printed in the Complete Warrior and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting books.

edit: and the Player's Guide to Faerun.

[Angelus_dead]

Quick Summaries for people who haven't heard of these prestige classes (the newish ones only)

Barbarian Occult Slayer
Like getting Favored Enemy Spellcaster. In addition to extra damage and saves against spellcasters, you also have a chance to interrupt their casting or even bounce spells back on them. Also some immunity against mental spells (a little like having your own FOM). In addition, the specialty might give related D&D effects like the Mageslayer feat tree (which lets your weapon dispel Blur, Displacement, Barkskin, Shield...)

Barbarian Ravager
An evil-themed spec that debuffs foes. Your appearance causes a fear debuff, and your attacks cause a pain debuff. With a melee special attack you can inflict constitution damage with any weapon. You can eventually even cause phantasmal killer by screaming at someone.

Human/Dwarf/Halfling Dragonmark Heir
Your dragonmarks improve, gaining more uses, bigger skill bonuses, and different releated spell-like abilities. For example, the Jorasco Dragonmark Heir will surely get Restoration or Mass Cure abilities.

Warforged Juggernaut
You become more like a true unliving construct. A lot of fortification and resistance/immunity to mental effects, negative energy, death effects, and ability damage. By the D&D rules it would bring with it reduced divine healing and less benefit from rage spells or bard songs. (Plus 100% inability to drink a potion...)

[ehcsztein]

Halfling: Dragonmark Heir


Hmmmm... now i am wondering if i'll be able to fit 4 PrEs into a single build :D

Excellent speculation fodder.

cheers

[Angelus_dead]

Is Purple Dragon Knight the TWF line for Fighters and Radiant Servant the healing line for Clerics? Please please say yes. :)
PDK is the party-buffer line.

Essentially it gives the fighter some features copied from bards or paladins that improve the damage and defense of nearby allies. It will also probably have an active effect which gives nearby teammates a bonus on their next attack similar to Smite Evil.

[Angelus_dead]

Drow don't get any PrE.
I see how it is.
Good point, it would be nice if Drow could qualify for specs like Assassin or Tempest without having to be a rogue/ranger.

[Demoyn]

PDK is printed in the Complete Warrior and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting books.

edit: and the Player's Guide to Faerun.


It doesn't really matter that it's printed in the Complete Warrior, it's still a prestige class reserved for Cormyrian Knights.

[Borror0]

Good point, it would be nice if Drow could qualify for specs like Assassin or Tempest without having to be a rogue/ranger.
The problem with that, given the current implementation, is that you are better off not making an elf ranger, dwarf fighter or barbarian WF because if you go for another class you get access to more PrE! A dwarf paladin will be better than a dwarf fighter, because the dwarf fighter will only have access to one PrE. A ranged elf fighter will be better than a ranged elf ranger because you can grab Kensai and Arcane Archer, etc.

It should accomplish the opposite effect.

[kingfisher]

awesomeness. thanks!

[Thrudh]

Hmmmm... now i am wondering if i'll be able to fit 4 PrEs into a single build

Heh, that would be some serious feat and Action Point costs

[The_Ick]

Quick Summaries for people who haven't heard of these prestige classes (the newish ones only)

Barbarian Occult Slayer
Like getting Favored Enemy Spellcaster. In addition to extra damage and saves against spellcasters, you also have a chance to interrupt their casting or even bounce spells back on them. Also some immunity against mental spells (a little like having your own FOM). In addition, the specialty might give related D&D effects like the Mageslayer feat tree (which lets your weapon dispel Blur, Displacement, Barkskin, Shield...)

Barbarian Ravager
An evil-themed spec that debuffs foes. Your appearance causes a fear debuff, and your attacks cause a pain debuff. With a melee special attack you can inflict constitution damage with any weapon. You can eventually even cause phantasmal killer by screaming at someone.

Human/Dwarf/Halfling Dragonmark Heir
Your dragonmarks improve, gaining more uses, bigger skill bonuses, and different releated spell-like abilities. For example, the Jorasco Dragonmark Heir will surely get Restoration or Mass Cure abilities.

Warforged Juggernaut
You become more like a true unliving construct. A lot of fortification and resistance/immunity to mental effects, negative energy, death effects, and ability damage. By the D&D rules it would bring with it reduced divine healing and less benefit from rage spells or bard songs. (Plus 100% inability to drink a potion...)

Thanks for the info. I was wondering just that.

Barbarian stuff looks awesome. Can't wait..

[QuantumFX]

The problem with that, given the current implementation, is that you are better off not making an elf ranger, dwarf fighter or barbarian WF because if you go for another class you get access to more PrE! A dwarf paladin will be better than a dwarf fighter, because the dwarf fighter will only have access to one PrE. A ranged elf fighter will be better than a ranged elf ranger because you can grab Kensai and Arcane Archer, etc.

It should accomplish the opposite effect.

Turbine is definately going to have to think about how racial PrE's work. Stalwart (Dwarven) Defender is definately going to be more useful for a Dwarf Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger/Monk than the class it was intended for (Fighter). I think we're going to see the racial PrE's become both Racial and Class specific where you can do things like a dwarf Stalwart Defender/Purple Dragon Knight or an Elf Deepwood Sniper/Arcane Archer.

[Borror0]

Turbine is definately going to have to think about how racial PrE's work. Stalwart (Dwarven) Defender is definately going to be more useful for a Dwarf Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger/Monk than the class it was intended for (Fighter). I think we're going to see the racial PrE's become both Racial and Class specific where you can do things like a dwarf Stalwart Defender/Purple Dragon Knight or an Elf Deepwood Sniper/Arcane Archer.
PrEs should not be class specific... IMO.

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks again Eladrin! Happy New Year to you and to the rest of the DDO community!

I was kind of hoping that Barbarians would get Bear Warrior since druids are in the works anyway. Or maybe that holy barb. PrC from The Book of Exalted Deeds.

[maddmatt70]

I was hoping for different Barbarian prestige enhancements that were more fun and interesting. The occult slayer and ravager don't really fit the bill. Oh bear warrior where are you. That first level barbarian that I rolled up will in all likelihood be a permanent mule...

[Angelus_dead]

A dwarf paladin will be better than a dwarf fighter, because the dwarf fighter will only have access to one PrE.
Maybe not, because paladins have been complaining that their specialty enhancements are very expensive. A dwarf pally who tries to get both Stalwart Defender and Chalice Knight won't have APs left for any other good pally and dwarf enhancements.

Specialty enhancements aren't free just because you qualify for them: they still cost AP, and their benefit per AP isn't always better than regular enhancements provide.


A ranged elf fighter will be better than a ranged elf ranger because you can grab Kensai and Arcane Archer, etc.
Certainly not. Arcane Archer + Kensai is worse than Arcane Archer + Favored Enemy 12 + Ram's Might.

[Borror0]

That first level barbarian that I rolled up will in all likelihood be a permanent mule...

:rolleyes: Don't you think you're... overreacting a little too early?

[Borror0]

Certainly not. Arcane Archer + Kensai is worse than Arcane Archer + Favored Enemy 12 + Ram's Might.
Except that's because fighters suck and rangers, well, are the most powerful class currently.

[Angelus_dead]

PrEs should not be class specific... IMO.
In general they should be less class-specific than they are now. However, the specialties available can be part of the factors used to balance different classes. And we certainly wouldn't want a paladin or monk to be able to take Tempest, for example.

Therefore the safe way to improve things is to take existing specialties and open them to more than one class. Obvious candidates would be giving Tempest to Fighters and opening the sorc/wiz specialties to both sorcs and wizards. But even that could cause some problems (say if Tempest overshadows Kensai, or the Wiz specialties are superior to compensate for sorc advantage in other regards)

[maddmatt70]

:rolleyes: Don't you think you're... overreacting a little too early?

Well.. Occult slayer is going to be like knight of the chalice for paladins but for barbarians. Ravager is somewhat interesting sure although there are some more fun prestige classes such as Bear Warrior which would be really really fun. I also wonder what they will be doing for half orcs. I wanted something more sexy. I am not super interested in running a barbarian unless it has a real fun PRE.

[Shaamis]

I see there are (at this time) three prestige class enhancements paths for each class

but I am dissapponted....

One of the monk's three ISN'T THE BREWMASTER!?!?!?!

That's it.


<packing up my S***>

<openning door>

<going through door>

<slammig door behind me>

j/k :p

I am kinda sad, but I understand.

Can Shaamis just be the ONLY Brewmaster in Stormreach then, by chance!?!

C'MON......... how much damage CAN an inebriated dwarven monk do!?!?!

[Borror0]

And we certainly wouldn't want a paladin or monk to be able to take Tempest, for example.
Why not? Crazy swing rate?

say if Tempest overshadows Kensai, or the Wiz specialties are superior to compensate for sorc advantage in other regards
It can be argued that wiz vs sorc balance could be and even should be done outside of the PrE and that if Tempest overshadows Kensai then it only means that Kensai needs a little more love.

[maddmatt70]

Certainly not. Arcane Archer + Kensai is worse than Arcane Archer + Favored Enemy 12 + Ram's Might.

hmmm. +14.5 damage for Kensai/fighter and +1 to crit range vs. +19 against a favored enemy. (also fighter has to have 1 level ranger for bow strength so they get +2 vs. favored enemy). I would say the Kensai/Arcane Archer wins but your point is well taken that Kensai isn't really that good of a pre and needs to be better..

[Angelus_dead]

Why not? Crazy swing rate?
Yes. When non-DPS weapons are in use it'd be overpowered to have Zeal + Tempest or Wind Stance + Tempest.


It can be argued that wiz vs sorc balance could be and even should be done outside of the PrE and that if Tempest overshadows Kensai then it only means that Kensai needs a little more love.
That argument could be made, but it is wrong. That position would be calling for the devs to spend a lot of extra effort for no benefit.

You see, game balance is hard work. It takes serious effort to judge if a particular rule system is balanced or not, and then much more to fix it so it is balanced (especially if you're not willing to take the easy road and balance via homogenization). If developers are asked to design classes that are balanced on their own and then also design specialties that remain balanced when placed atop those classes, it'll be almost as bad as having to balance the game twice. Once they must balance classes+specialties (which is necessary), and once they balance classes without specialties (which is pointless because there's no such thing as a "No Specialties" server).

More simply, access to a specialty is one of the factors that can be used to distinguish between classes, making it a "lever" to correct imbalances. If the devs can't stop class X from taking spec Y then some tools to create a balanced game have been removed.

[QuantumFX]

PrEs should not be class specific... IMO.

I can live with PrE’s being that way. They’re mimicing a 4.0 concept rather than a 3.5 concept.

PrC’s on the other hand…

[ehcsztein]

Heh, that would be some serious feat and Action Point costs

Indeed, just depends upon how the cost on the 2 unknown ones are. (halfling and monk) should already comfortably be getting Assassin I and Knight of the Chalice I when the mod drops, and I have the full DM line already so it'll only be a matter of time.

Or I will just have to build a new character specifically trying to fit 4 in. :D

[Junts]

no plans for a racial pre for humans or halfling? no urban soul?

[Borror0]

Once they must balance classes+specialties (which is necessary), and once they balance classes without specialties (which is pointless because there's no such thing as a "No Specialties" server).
It depends on how you want PrE to be like.

I'll try to explain what I mean but I have a huge headache today so pardon me if I'm unclear.

If you want PrE to be just another way to balance classes, you are right that this is just additional work and the current implementation is better. That is only true if that is what PrE to be. However, PrE could be intended to be what I will call a "layer of choice". (If you have a better terminology, give it. I didn't try really hard to find something better)Other layers of choice are race and feats. They are part of the character design and leads to more diverse builds than if there would be no feats or no race.

Turbine tries to make classes balanced regardless of race and make race somewhat equally attractive. PrE could be the same.

Obviously, it requires more work from Turbine but it can be debated that it's worth it.

[Gol]

I'm disappointed to see Occult Slayer be a Barbarian PrE :(

Admittedly, the list of Barb PrCs in P&P is a bit short, though.

[WeaselKing]

WF Pale Master Juggernaut FTW!!

[Gol]

WF Pale Master Juggernaut FTW!!
Yep, my Arcane Psycho has hope.

[Angelus_dead]

If you want PrE to be just another way to balance classes, you are right that this is just additional work and the current implementation is better. That is only true if that is what PrE to be. However, PrE could be intended to be what I will call a "layer of choice".
False dichotomy. Specialty enhancements can help balance classes in addition to other game design results.

In fact, even the current class-restricted specialties add a layer of choice, kind of like having 30 classes instead of 10. But as I said, if they allowed only some of the specialties to be open to multiple classes, then the devs have more flexibility to avoid specific problems in game design. Maybe Druids would be overpowered if they get Fire Savant from sorcs; well, a system where the devs can arbitrarily match classes with allowed specialties give the devs an easy way to prevent that (or not, as the situation requires)

[Borror0]

False dichotomy. Specialty enhancements can help balance classes in addition to other game design results.
No, it's not. While it can accomplish both, depending on which is the priority, the choice will be different.

One design will be preferred if class balance is the priority but a different design will be chosen if the priority is not class balance. Many methods can accomplish both, but each will score differently in each category: each having their advantages and disadvantages. The preferred design will be the one meeting the chosen objective the best while still being realistic.

[Mhykke]

What I'm curious to see are the Caster PrE's.

In particular, sorcerer. It sounds as though the sorcerer PrE's are simply some time of elemental/dps specialty lines, which would basically suck, making sorcs only choices b/w different DPS specialties.

Caster burst damage is pretty negated right now in high content, and I can't imagine it changing back any time soon. Only giving sorcs DPS PrE's would not be fun.

[Turial]

no plans for a racial pre for humans or halfling? no urban soul?

Was kinda hopeing for urban soul as well.

[QuantumFX]

Question: How many Warforged are going to take the Juggernaut enhancement just so they can run around Stormreach claiming “I’m the JUGGERNAUT! B****!”?

[Gol]

Question: How many Warforged are going to take the Juggernaut enhancement just so they can run around Stormreach claiming “I'm the JUGGERNAUT! B****!”?
That'll depend on whether or not it carries the P&P feat requirement of Adamantine Body, I'd imagine ;)

[axebender]

anyone have a list of dragon mark heirs they may use for each race?i was never familiar with dragon marks before they appeared in ddo.

[QuantumFX]

anyone have a list of dragon mark heirs they may use for each race?i was never familiar with dragon marks before they appeared in ddo.

The class is generic. It basically gives you more favor in the house you belong to and a choice of alternatve uses of your dragonmarks or more uses. Considering that they have the extra uses enhancements already I think we're going to see things like invisibility or blur coming from the same Least DM of Shadow pool.

[Ustice]

Even going by the PnP source, there is reason to allow the PrE's to be opened up. Prestige Classes in D&D are not dependent on classes, but instead on class features. This allows for more synergy, and more options. For instance, most "Fighter" Prestige Classes have a minimum Base Attack Bonus of +5 or greater. You could either get this by taking 5 levels of Fighter (or Ranger or Barbarian) or 3 levels of Fighter (+3 BAB) and 3 levels of Rogue (+2 BAB).

The mechanics exist for this in DDO already, since all class abilities are treated as feats, and Enhancements can have feat requirements.

As for balance, you GENERALLY only have to worry about the synergy points. Take for instance Tempest and Monk. Monks get the +5 bonus at level 7, the +11 bonus at level 15, and can't reach the +17 bonus. As a result a pure monk could not get the tier 3 Tempest (whatever it is). In order to get that bonus, you would need to multi-class with a maximum of 12 Monk levels and 6 that are Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian (Ranger is the most likely). So you still maintain power vs versatility.

It makes multi-classing a lot more interesting.

[nbhs275]

WF Pale Master Juggernaut FTW!!

what im wonderin, is if WF will get access to barbarian prestige chains, then wouldn't that mean a WF barbarian could have 2 barb chains? frenzied berserker/occult slayer?!?

Either way, WF ranger tempest III/frenzied berserker III is going to be down right scary.

[Gol]

what im wonderin, is if WF will get access to barbarian prestige chains, then wouldn't that mean a WF barbarian could have 2 barb chains? frenzied berserker/occult slayer?!?

Either way, WF ranger tempest III/frenzied berserker III is going to be down right scary.WF Ranger Tempest III & Juggernaut III for the win.

As I read it, a WF would not be able to select Juggernaut and Frenzied Berserker. I'm taking that to be what the "counts as Barbarian" means on the Juggernaut.

[binnsr]

Thanks for the full list, Eladrin.

Any chance the OP could be edited to contain links to each of the preview posts to make searching for us easier?

[Angelus_dead]

In particular, sorcerer. It sounds as though the sorcerer PrE's are simply some time of elemental/dps specialty lines, which would basically suck, making sorcs only choices b/w different DPS specialties.
The problem with the sorc specialties is not that they're DPS-only, as that might not even be true. The D&D elemental savant also gets spell penetration, matching energy immunity, immunity to stunning, poison, sleep, critical hits, and sneak attacks, plus also possibly invisibility, flying, or earthglide.

So it might be a powerful defensive spec as well... but that would still be bad, because the specs are all so similar. Aside from the energy choice they'd be almost exactly the same. It'd be silly if there was no choice to have a more-offensive or defensive spec, and especially weird if all sorc18s are naturally immune to crits just because that's the only thing they can take.

It would seem the simple fix would be to allow sorcs and wizards to take some of each others' specialties (which is exactly what happens in D&D)

[Tythian]

Turbine is definately going to have to think about how racial PrE's work. Stalwart (Dwarven) Defender is definately going to be more useful for a Dwarf Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger/Monk than the class it was intended for (Fighter). I think we're going to see the racial PrE's become both Racial and Class specific where you can do things like a dwarf Stalwart Defender/Purple Dragon Knight or an Elf Deepwood Sniper/Arcane Archer.

I agree that the way racial PREs work has the opposite of the intended effect. Removing the restriction would encourage people to run the "favored" class, over multiclassing or choosing a different class just to benefit from having a racial PRE at all.

[Kargon]

Barbarian Occult Slayer
Like getting Favored Enemy Spellcaster. In addition to extra damage and saves against spellcasters, you also have a chance to interrupt their casting or even bounce spells back on them.

Does this mean what Kargon think it mean? Kargon spell faceblock going get implementamed and kargon can actuamally bounce lightnamaling bolts back at castermers with kargon face?!?!?!?! :eek:

[Strakeln]

May have been discussed, but I noticed this from someone's Juggernaut PrC link:


Healing Immunity:Starting at 3rd level, as a warforged juggernaut becomes more like a construct and less like a lving creature, it becomes immune to the effects of spells from the healing subschool. In addition, it can no longer benefit from effects of consumanle spells and magic items, such as heroes' feast and potions.As if not being able to be healed by a cleric wasn't bad enough, now they can't even chug potions?

LOL! :D

[KLBen]

According to the Eberron Source book, The juggernaut had no class prereq just that he has to be warforged? My book got stolen so can't look it up myself.

By the way.....WARFORGED JUGGERNAUT HERE I COME!! :)

[Angelus_dead]

As if not being able to be healed by a cleric wasn't bad enough, now they can't even chug potions?
They'd still have Oil of Repair, because that's poured over the head instead of consumed. But all those useful drinks of Rage, Haste, Lesser Resto, and Energy Prot would be gone.

However, that limitation is dubious in D&D for two reasons.
1. By the rules, something like an air elemental, mummy, or even skeleton can benefit from a potion. You just have to be a "corporeal creature". So it's odd to put a prohibition on Juggernauts that even 100% constructs like the Warforged Titan don't face.

2. Rules in numerous side books allow someone to use the Brew Potion feat to create potions equivalents as nearly any other kind of expendable item, such as ceramic tiles you crush to activate.

PS. As far as healing by clerics is concerned, the DDO version of Juggernaut should apply a penalty to divine healing, but not knock it down to zero. At worst it should bring you to 10% divine healing, which would be bumped back up to to 35% with HF3. Even that would probably be too harsh (unless it were a togglable mode)

[Junts]

They'd still have Oil of Repair, because that's poured over the head instead of consumed. But all those useful drinks of Rage, Haste, Lesser Resto, and Energy Prot would be gone.

However, that limitation is dubious in D&D for two reasons.
1. By the rules, something like an air elemental, mummy, or even skeleton can benefit from a potion. You just have to be a "corporeal creature". So it's odd to put a prohibition on Juggernauts that even 100% constructs like the Warforged Titan don't face.

2. Rules in numerous side books allow someone to use the Brew Potion feat to create potions equivalents as nearly any other kind of expendable item, such as ceramic tiles you crush to activate.

PS. As far as healing by clerics is concerned, the DDO version of Juggernaut should apply a penalty to divine healing, but not knock it down to zero. At worst it should bring you to 10% divine healing, which would be bumped back up to to 35% with HF3. Even that would probably be too harsh (unless it were a togglable mode)


whatever it does, it should be the same penalty as an adjusted version of the warforged heavy fort feat, which is useless right now anyway

[maddmatt70]

So since there will be a Warforged Juggernaut does that mean that there will be no Warforged Greater Aptitude prestige enhancement or are those one and the same?

[Angelus_dead]

whatever it does, it should be the same penalty as an adjusted version of the warforged heavy fort feat, which is useless right now anyway
Yes, I've said numerous times that Improved Fortification should give you some +X% fortification along with -(X/2)% divine healing. (Multiple feats so you can select X=25, 50, or 75 as you prefer). There are several strong reasons, but they're almost too obvious to bear repeating.

[jmelanie7]

It doesn't really matter that it's printed in the Complete Warrior, it's still a prestige class reserved for Cormyrian Knights.

no, it's not, if you read the pre-reqs in the complete warrior, there is nothing about cormyr. It's not because on Faerun there is an order called the purple dragon knights that other settings can't get one too...that is as silly as saying ALL oranges come from Florida.

[Angelus_dead]

So since there will be a Warforged Juggernaut does that mean that there will be no Warforged Greater Aptitude prestige enhancement or are those one and the same?
WF GWA is an enhancement increasing your chance of magic bonuses on glancing blows, but it's not a prestige enhancement or character specialty. It's not much different from Warforged Power Attack.

PS. Specialty enhancements get more evocative names than "Aptitude" or "Mastery".

[kingfisher]

the 12/6/2 combo will be cool. lots of interesting combos to play with and lots places to take all these multi rangers i have :)

should make it easier to avoid reroll even if they make tempest III really good. as long as the new temp II = the old temp I you should be able to find enough value in the lvl I pre of whatever classed you splashed to make the toon effective and fun enough to keep around.

[maddmatt70]

WF GWA is an enhancement increasing your chance of magic bonuses on glancing blows, but it's not a prestige enhancement or character specialty. It's not much different from Warforged Power Attack.

PS. Specialty enhancements get more evocative names than "Aptitude" or "Mastery".

hmm.. It has an official sticker posted next to it. It seems an odd way to present just a little enhancement change..

[tc12]

WF Ranger Tempest III & Juggernaut III for the win.

I think there may be limits on having 3 *total* levels of PrE. Meaning besides the above a Dw Paladin 18+ may well not be able to be Defender of Siberies III & Stalwart Defender III. My guess is you can take 3 of one, 3 of the other or a 1/2 split between the two.

I really do wish this would be clarified by Eladrin though...

TC

[Angelus_dead]

hmm.. It has an official sticker posted next to it. It seems an odd way to present just a little enhancement change..
Well, it was officially announced as part of the Kensai publication, because one of the Kensai benefits mirrors the effect of WF GWA (and stacks with it)

[dragnmoon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Purple Dragon Knight a Forgotten Realms-only prestige? Is this a veiled attempt at admitting the mistake of choosing Eberron for a setting?

To correct you...

When Purple Dragon Knight was Put into Complete Warrior.. They made it non-exclusive to Forgotten Realms..

The Complete Warrior Version does not mention anything about Forgotten Realms..

That said... Would be nice if they add some more Eberron 'Exclusive' Prestige classe Enhancements..

[BlackSteel]

I thought that the favored class of WF was fighter

[Angelus_dead]

I thought that the favored class of WF was fighter
In D&D it is, and that's an interesting point.

See, a DDO WF can take Juggernaut + Kensai or Juggernaut + Stalwart Defender if he's a fighter. A WF ranger could have Juggernaut + Tempest. But if he's a barbarian he'll have to choose between Juggernaut or Frenzied Berserker- you can't have both.

The fact that WF Juggernaut counts as a barb enhancement might be more viewed as saying it's good for any warrior except barbs.

[Pwesiela]

Sorc:

Why, oh why, can we not get something to boost the multiple NON-DAMAGE spells that we get???

Based just on the name, Aes won't get any of the savant lines. Why? She has a whopping 4 damage spells. Is there really no light for the enchantresses? Necromancers? Illusionists?

Something?

Anything?

[Borror0]

The fact that WF Juggernaut counts as a barb enhancement might be more viewed as saying it's good for any warrior except barbs....but Dwarf would be better as non-fighters and elf as non-rangers if rangers were not the overpowered class they are.

[Mhykke]

In D&D it is, and that's an interesting point.

See, a DDO WF can take Juggernaut + Kensai or Juggernaut + Stalwart Defender if he's a fighter. A WF ranger could have Juggernaut + Tempest. But if he's a barbarian he'll have to choose between Juggernaut or Frenzied Berserker- you can't have both.

The fact that WF Juggernaut counts as a barb enhancement might be more viewed as saying it's good for any warrior except barbs.

Not just any warrior. Battle casters can take juggernaut and pale master, for example.

I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense why being a warforged barb bezerker would preclude you from becoming a juggernaut, while being a warforged fighter kensai or warforged wizard pale master or warforged tempest ranger would allow you to become a juggernaut.

[Mhykke]

I wonder if they'll put putting this aspect of the savants in game....if so, I'm knocking over all mobs like the elementals have been doing to me all these years:

Elemental Transformation (Su): At 11th level, the elemental savant gains the ability to shapechange into a Large or smaller elemental of her chosen type (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day as a sorcerer of her class level. She also gains the elemental's supernatural special attacks and special qualities.
For every 3 additional levels gained above 11th, the savant can shapechange one additional time per day (twice at 14th, three times at 17th, and so on).
For every 5 additional levels gained above 11th, the elemental savant can take the form of an elemental of one size category greater (Huge at 16th, greater at 21st, and elder at 26th).

[Spisey]

Put Dwarf would be better as non-fighters and elf as non-ranger if rangers were not the overpowered class they are.

Juggernaught Thief-Acrobat? :p

[Tanka]

Juggernaught Thief-Acrobat? :p
WF Juggernaut Thief-Acrobat with 2 Monk for Wind Stance -- using Quarterstaves, of course.

lulz

[Spisey]

WF Juggernaut Thief-Acrobat with 2 Monk for Wind Stance -- using Quarterstaves, of course.

lulz

Almost sounds like a incidental workaround to the monk/barb combo ;)

[Tanka]

Almost sounds like a incidental workaround to the monk/barb combo ;)
It'll obviously be very dependent on what Juggernaut does, but it'll be a fun little variation on Phenx's Big F'n Stick.

[bobbryan2]

WF Juggernaut Thief-Acrobat with 2 Monk for Wind Stance -- using Quarterstaves, of course.

lulz

Juggernaut should require adamantine body, yes?

[KLBen]

Juggernaut should require adamantine body, yes?

Juggernaut does require Adamantine Body, as well as Bull Rush, and power attack. Gratch has posted a link on page one of this thread which gives all the info for the PnP version.

Not sure what the devs are going to do about the bull rush req (ignore it?)

[Tanka]

Juggernaut should require adamantine body, yes?
Kensai should require Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack.

Your point?

[Inspire]

Kensai should require Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack.

Your point?

I think his point is, if the make it so you have to take Adamantine Body(which is likley IMO) a Rogues evasion is void.

And its a good point, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Tanka]

I think his point is, if the make it so you have to take Adamantine Body(which is likley IMO) a Rogues evasion is void.

And its a good point, but I guess we will have to wait and see.
My point is that no PrE, to this date, has required the same things that its PnP equivalent PrC has required.

So, right now, it's all guesses.

[Borror0]

My point is that no PrE, to this date, has required the same things that its PnP equivalent PrC has required.
Tempest.

[noinfo]

The problem with that, given the current implementation, is that you are better off not making an elf ranger, dwarf fighter or barbarian WF because if you go for another class you get access to more PrE! A dwarf paladin will be better than a dwarf fighter, because the dwarf fighter will only have access to one PrE. A ranged elf fighter will be better than a ranged elf ranger because you can grab Kensai and Arcane Archer, etc.

It should accomplish the opposite effect.

If you can fit in all the pre req's in AP and feats maybe.

[Inspire]

Tempest.

Darn, beaten to the punch.

[noinfo]

Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Dragonmark Heir, Stalwart Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

It is a shame to see Humans and Halflings get let out of the PRE racial section. If you are going to do it for most you should include them. Dragonmark Heir is nice if you acutally take Dragonmarks I suppose but everyone get that. Drow need a little bit of help here as well.

Elves get the raw end of the deal here as well. Arcan Archer. Considering how ineffective it is compared to melee combat I would much prefer to be able to have a melee PRE open to it, given their high dex Tempest would be my preference but anything that doesn't involve the most limited form of combat is fine. Yes I know that they have had it as an option prior to this but notice how nobody really complained about it? Because while ranged combat is used effectively by a few, most people do not prefer it.

[Desteria]

It is a shame to see Humans and Halflings get let out of the PRE racial section. If you are going to do it for most you should include them. Dragonmark Heir is nice if you acutally take Dragonmarks I suppose but everyone get that. Drow need a little bit of help here as well.

Elves get the raw end of the deal here as well. Arcan Archer. Considering how ineffective it is compared to melee combat I would much prefer to be able to have a melee PRE open to it, given their high dex Tempest would be my preference but anything that doesn't involve the most limited form of combat is fine. Yes I know that they have had it as an option prior to this but notice how nobody really complained about it? Because while ranged combat is used effectively by a few, most people do not prefer it.

in PnP dragon mark Heir + haflign is VERY VERY VERY powerfull, it gets you more heals then a cleric cna ever cast and at a lower level....

most of the other dragon mark hiers were not where near that power level, some were nice but hafling WOW!!!!

SO i would not say that they are getting left out really haflign will have probably the best heir prc...
Humans may be gettign screwed ;) but there are very few human rec prc's to chose from.

[baddax]

Thanks E!

[noinfo]

in PnP dragon mark Heir + haflign is VERY VERY VERY powerfull, it gets you more heals then a cleric cna ever cast and at a lower level....

most of the other dragon mark hiers were not where near that power level, some were nice but hafling WOW!!!!

SO i would not say that they are getting left out really haflign will have probably the best heir prc...
Humans may be gettign screwed ;) but there are very few human rec prc's to chose from.

Even if the halfing ones are powerful, not every halfling is going to invest in them, this can be ballanced with pre reqs such as feats and AP anyway.

As for humans it doesn't have to be human required for it to work anyway. Just assign them one or given human versatility give them an option of choosing one.

[Gol]

WF Wizard 18 / Fighter 2 for Pale Master III and Juggernaut III :)

[EinarMal]

WF Wizard 18 / Fighter 2 for Pale Master III and Juggernaut III :)

I told you not to delete that psycho build just yet for a dex TWF build :)

[baddax]

3 feats is too much to spend for the Human Dragon Mark unless you go primarily fighter or wizzie where you got alot of extra Feats to choose from. I know humans get one extra feat at level 1 just saying its not worth the price is all.

[Tanka]

Tempest.
They also don't gain the same benefits as the ones described in Complete Adventurer.

Will Juggernaut require Adamantine Body? IMO, yes. Will Turbine require it? Hard to say.

[Borror0]

They also don't gain the same benefits as the ones described in Complete Adventurer.
Hey, you said there was no PrE requiring what is required in PnP. I pointed Tempest. Never said anything more than that. ;)

[vainangel]

Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant

What about
Conjure?
Transmute?
Enchant?
Necro?


Hmm.... Why not a general Elemental Savant that can be tuned to one element and 3 other PrE's?

[Griphon]

What about
Conjure?
Transmute?
Enchant?
Necro?


Hmm.... Why not a general Elemental Savant that can be tuned to one element and 3 other PrE's?

Cuz they're probably trying to reinforce the idea of Sorc's been nukers.. and Wizards being CC. :(

[Borror0]

Cuz they're probably trying to reinforce the idea of Sorc's been nukers.. and Wizards being CC. :(
If your sorcerer nukes since module 6, you're a noob.

[nbhs275]

WF Juggernaut Thief-Acrobat with 2 Monk for Wind Stance -- using Quarterstaves, of course.

lulz

1 monk gets you air stance...and 19 rogue is 1d6 SA more :)

Hmm, stupid high attack speed, 10d6+20 SA, glancing blow procs, huge AC, improved evasion, and big o' PA. Yep, gimped.

[Griphon]

If your sorcerer nukes since module 6, you're a noob.

Troll much?

[nbhs275]

If your sorcerer nukes since module 6, you're a noob.

you don't know any good casters do you? nuking done right is cheap, and doesnt prevent effective CC/instant death.

[vainangel]

Cuz they're probably trying to reinforce the idea of Sorc's been nukers.. and Wizards being CC. :(

that is ****y

[Borror0]

Troll much?
My point was that if they plan on making sorcerer a nuking class, they have to "fix" nuking first.

Sorry if it sounded trollish.

[Tanka]

Hey, you said there was no PrE requiring what is required in PnP. I pointed Tempest. Never said anything more than that. ;)
True, but there's a nice distinction. I mean, if we could have WoP and vorpal raining from both hands, it'd be a touch ridiculous.


1 monk gets you air stance...and 19 rogue is 1d6 SA more :)

Hmm, stupid high attack speed, 10d6+20 SA, glancing blow procs, huge AC, improved evasion, and big o' PA. Yep, gimped.
2 Monk gets an extra Feat. ATM, 19 Rogue is... Meh. 1d6 more SA is OK, but that's about it. The extra Rogue Feats aren't worth much.

Now, if they made it so you could replace it with any Feat, it'd be better.

[DragonKiller]

Disappointed that Arcane Trickster didn't make the list. My little guy would love to be able to disable a trap from 30' away.

[Pwesiela]

Cuz they're probably trying to reinforce the idea of Sorc's been nukers.. and Wizards being CC. :(

Which is sad since my sorc has a better dc on her enchantment spells than any bard or wizard I've come across.

[Griphon]

Which is sad since my sorc has a better dc on her enchantment spells than any bard or wizard I've come across.

Yeah I don't see enough Wizards buying Spell Focus feats anymore.

That and the Drow increased Char bonus almost always keeps the Sorcs even better at CC!

(I'll keep my Spell Focuses for Enchantment, and Conjuration, and Illusion... Although I might have to turn one into another for higher DC in one.. Sorta focusing better.)

[Riggs]

Yeah I don't see enough Wizards buying Spell Focus feats anymore.

That and the Drow increased Char bonus almost always keeps the Sorcs even better at CC!

(I'll keep my Spell Focuses for Enchantment, and Conjuration, and Illusion... Although I might have to turn one into another for higher DC in one.. Sorta focusing better.)

Drow get an int bonus too....

The reason nuking is broken is monsters have massive amounts of hit points now.

How much mana would it take to damage a devil or elemental (in sos say)down to 0? How many spells does it take to do 5000 damage to something that is resistant to your main damage spell?

Compare that too a spell pen/necro focus caster that casts one or two fingers and kills something dead once, fast. or if it is immune...then you have to cc it somehow and kill it with weapons, or wait for a melee to do it.

It is the same reason people complain about wops vs damage. Damage is seriously broken at high levels.

[Pwesiela]

Drow get an int bonus too....

The reason nuking is broken is monsters have massive amounts of hit points now.

How much mana would it take to damage a devil or elemental (in sos say)down to 0? How many spells does it take to do 5000 damage to something that is resistant to your main damage spell?

Compare that too a spell pen/necro focus caster that casts one or two fingers and kills something dead once, fast. or if it is immune...then you have to cc it somehow and kill it with weapons, or wait for a melee to do it.

It is the same reason people complain about wops vs damage. Damage is seriously broken at high levels.

I'm more annoyed that things have a blanket "mind control" immunity. OK, so something is controlling it's mind already. Honestly? Why isn't my DC given a chance to overcome the mind control and take charge instead?

As to instadeath spells. I have to laugh at the people who insist on fingering everything when mass hold with a couple of good melees in the group does the same thing to multiple targets for less mana. For example, sure, I could finger everything in ritual sacrifice or the monastery, but I prefer to mass hold 6 or 7 drow/gnoll at a time and watch them get summarily dispatched. Do I get the kill count? No, but I definitely get the assist. Oh, and I only spent, what, 40 mana? instead of 200+. Situational? Sure, but good luck making your save against my hold. I give you a 5% chance. Unless you're blanket immune....:mad:

[nbhs275]

Which is sad since my sorc has a better dc on her enchantment spells than any bard or wizard I've come across.

wizards will be getting +2 int at 20, and reduced SP costs on metamagics. Which also means one thats focused on any one school will have the highest possible DCs, especially when paired with cheap heighten (2 sp level means even a heightened web is only costing you 14 extra SP) its a mean combo

[Hanza]

Hope we see some extra character space so I can try a bunch out. This is the real D&D flavor. I love the idea of being able to play one class in several different ways

[Angelus_dead]

Hi Eladrin, here are thoughts on the new stuff announced.


Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:
Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Occult Slayer and Ravager both look good.

Occult Slayer will obviously gain both offensive and defensive bonuses against casters, which is particularly good in DDO since approximately every real boss monster is a caster too (the D&D class works against anything with spell-like abilities as well). Just counting the current raid bosses, 6/8ths of them are casters.

I'm hopeful Ravager will be a decent proximity/melee debuffer, with low-frequency abilities to strike for con damage or emulate a Fear, Despair, or PK effect. The +1d4 pain damage ability from D&D is underpowered, even in the less-extensive combats of the source game. It should be changed to a passive, and it should probably include some kind of debuff as well (along the lines of Crippling Strike, but a penalty instead of stat damage, so that it won't stack on mobs but will impair bosses). That would give the specialty some melee-defense abilities, and they'd be helpful to whomever the monster is attacking, even if it's not you. (For more views on how a melee debuffer could work, check the Black Orc class from Warhammer Online)

Both Occult Slayer and Ravager could potentially have some defensive effects, but it's a little disappointing that I don't see a true defensive "ultra toughman" barb specialty: something to reverse the thrust of the Frenzied Berserker and to correspond to the Bastion build path in character creation.

Think about something to add features like: +DR, +con while raged, passive natural armor, improved recovery, temp hp on crits, more temp hp on kills, and a percentile reduction to incoming damage (as a boost). Add in increased hate and +intimidate, and it looks like a nice specialty. Maybe even give it "anti-backstab" so you do more damage while you have aggro. (There's also the PHB2 barb option for +str while under 50% hp)



Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
I'm seriously worried that extensions to the Bard specialties haven't been announced for mod 9. The D&D bard class is badly flawed in that new features really slow down past level 15 (as new spell levels and song types stop coming). D&D players can partly fix that with splatbooks, but DDO needs to address it as well. The specialties could be a way to fill that hole, but not if they aren't ready in mod9.

I think I'll make a separate thread on that problem.



Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
It's wise for you to hold off on cleric, wizard, and sorcerer specialties for the mod9 release. Those classes are already pretty powerful, and they're already getting fun new toys in the form of 9th level spells. All the cleric-caster design effort for mod9 should be concentrated on spells, and specialties can come later.

It's important to get the new spells right: to be worthy of being called 9th level they've got to be good, but it'll be hard to achieve that without going overpowered.


Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
I'm sad for no PDK, even though it's predictable that it'd be the Virtuoso of the fighter specialties, whom nobody loves. The other two fighter specs are obviously strong-offense or strong-defense, and most fighter players will gravitate towards one or the other. It may be hard to come up with a team-support fighter spec that's attractive without being overpowered (especially since you need it to be useful both with and without a real bard in the group)



Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
As mentioned in the other thread, it would be helpful if Knight of Chalice had some fallback features for when Evil Outsiders aren't on the menu. Otherwise expect paladins to swap in and out depending on their raiding schedule for the week. (I suggest a better anti-fear aura, and lesser combat bonuses against monsters related to evil outsiders, including Fiendish templates and evil divine casters)



Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
So Tempest gets upgraded, but not Sniper? It wouldn't seem too hard to just throw another +1 crit features as stopgaps. Hey, also give it an active ability to "study" a foe for 8 sec, then you self-buff for 60 sec of increased damage against that single creature: +3 if it's a fav enemy, or +6 if it's not. (You could move while studying)



Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Although Mechanic is the one most in need of improvements, you might try to find a way for the 3 active poisons of Assasin 1 to be something other than a waste of pixels (even if it takes tier 2 or 3 for them to become meaningful). One idea: What if Assassin2 got a "blowdart" to apply the poison at range, and without exiting stealth?

Regarding Mechanic, you might go towards granting features from the Combat Trapsmith prestige class. That one has the ability to lay traps almost real-time during combat. It's true that it would be difficult to add features based on laying traps for monsters to approach, because existing DDO abilities to set traps hardly work in gameplay. (The situations where players defend a position against arriving mobs are few and far between, and one doesn't want to add abilities that'll be overpowered in those few defensive quests, but useless otherwise)

Here's an idea: Suppose a Mechanic II has 5 charges of "trapsetting" with him, and he recovers 2/rest or 1 by disarming a box. One can be used to drop a mine that explodes, snaps on an enemy's leg, or (for maximum silliness) unfolds into a blender as seen in DDO dungeons. That last one is going too far: the mechanic rogue would kite mobs back and forth through it as if he'd just cast Blade Barrier.



Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
It's very hard to predict how those will work in DDO, because the D&D classes are all about intensifying the functions of the Energy Substitution feat, which isn't part of DDO and would be hard to add (both regarding the artwork and the game balance)

However, as they look to be all about the same thing applied to different favority energies, that appears a bit weak that sorcs only really get one specialty. However, maybe it was judged that sorcs overshadow wizards right now and don't need the extra help.



Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage
Wild Mage is an obvious implementation: randomly-fluctuating caster level and spell power which usually comes out better than a regular wizard, but sometimes is worse. Throw in Random Deflector as a defensive boost (like Entropic Shield), and for more fun give attacks it blocks a chance to harm other monsters. Reckless Dewomer is cool too: suppose it has 9 choices, and by spending 3*X mana you can cast a random level X spell...

Pale Master can have defensive resistances, but I also hope it would improve efficiency with Necromancy spells to be close to a sorc.

Archmage is the generic specialty, but unlike Virtuoso it could actually be pretty attractive. I figure it would have an ability resembling whatever Energy Substitution benefits the Elemental Savant Sorcerers get.


Human: Dragonmark Heir
Back before the release of DDO dragonmarks I predicted that almost none of them would get any use, and I was right. Dragonmark Heir specialties might be able to fix that. One might think that because the Mark of Healing is the most popular one in DDO, it needs the least benefit. Don't be afraid to give them bonuses besides more spell-like abilities: they could get all kinds of special training from that House. Some kinds of features (many of these could be purchased separately with AP, after you took Dragonmark Heir):

All dragonmark heirs might get regenerating dragonmark charges every 90 sec, but only up to 2/3rd your total capacity. Or they could have another way to refill charges, like buying consumable items to do so ("dragonshard infusion").


Mark of Passage:
Combat bonuses with quarterstaff (a traveler's weapon). Higher bonuses from Expeditious Retreat. Fast Movement (like barb). AC bonus while running. Ability to view your mailbox from anywhere (limited charges per rest). Ability to target a player and show him his mailbox, from anywhere.
Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff with Haste or partial incorpreality (extra-planar dodge). Spend dragonmark charge for Greater Teleport.


Mark of Sentinel:
Armor Mastery (like a dwarf). Dex bonus for Towers. Evasion against dragon-breath (only). Toggle ability for +15% melee hate. 5x charges of a 20 sec defense boost (AC, DR, Saves, Energy Resist) castable only on others. Active ability to designate a "ward", a character you're defending (just 1 at a time, 30 sec cooldown on designation). You have +X attack/damage/intim to anyone aggroed your ward, and when your ward is within close range she gains +Y AC, another +Y AC that doesn't stack with paladin aura, and a Shield AC bonus equal to your own (which goes up +2 if you block).
Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff with things like Shield, Barkskin, Stoneskin, Resist Energy, SR, DW, or FOM. Spend dragonmark charge to cast Lionheart or Delay Death (per Cleric capstone).

Mark of Healing:
Spend dragonmark charge for resto (greater, lesser, mass, etc), raise dead, rem disease, neut poison, or mass cures. Spend dragonmark charge to dispel death penalty or self-HOT. Gain a bonus on UMD or caster-level checks to activate curative magic items. Gain access to a special vendor who sells curative items cheaper, but they bind on acquire. Bonus on positive energy spell DC and damage. Undead striking you suffer positive-guard damage.


Mark of Shadow:
Gain bonus on sneak attacks (like halfling guile). Attack/damage bonuses with dagger or kukri. Bonus on rolls to beat concealment. Spend dragonmark charge for True Seeing, Blur, Mass Invis.

Mark of Making:
Spend dragonmark charge to summon from a list of helpful magic items, binded to you and limited by your character level (might consume plat in the creation). Spend dragonmark charge to damage, debuff, or even charm a enemy construct. Gain attack/damage bonus with hammers/mauls. Reduced ASF in metal armor. Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff a circumstance bonus on UMD, Search, and Disable, also granting temporary trapfinding and Disable ranks boosted to character level.

Mark of Warding:
Bonus on haggle. Gain a dividend from House Kundarak every 24 hours (only if you logged in). Spend dragonmark charge to cast any Symbol spell. Save bonus to Symbols. Total immunity to Symbols. Spend dragonmark charge to access your bank from anywhere, or show another character his bank. Spend dragonmark charge to self-buff with one of a variety of guards that harms attackers (including possibly fearsome)



Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]
The WF Juggernaut is heavily tied into the Improved Fortification feat, which is broken in DDO because it hews too closely to the D&D source. DDO is a different game, and the variations in healing frequency, roster fluidity, and accessibility to Fortification items means that the Improved Fort feat is both less helpful and more expensive than it should be. You should fix it to reduce divine healing instead of eliminate it, and the WF Juggernaut should be similar.

Oh look, I forgot to comment on the monk specialties. Silly me.

[Desteria]

If your sorcerer nukes since module 6, you're a noob.

All the time.....

on RED and PURPLE names, after appling a few debuffs and ONLY because i have no other options sicne they have stupid blanket immunites to any thign but nukes.




btw I'm realyl agreeing with Borro in a sarcastic, lets be an ass way ;) for any oen that did not get that.

[Borror0]

All the time.....

on RED and PURPLE names, after appling a few debuffs and ONLY because i have no other options sicne they have stupid blanket immunites to any thign but nukes.
I was waiting for someone to pull that one out. :D

[Angelus_dead]

Oh look, I forgot to comment on the monk specialties. Silly me.
There is a higher priority for monk character options than giving them specialty enhancements: first, the Path of Inevitable Dominion needs to be improved. It makes little sense to give a class three more choices, when half of the existing two variants is already brokenly underpowered.

Path of Harmonious Balance has 4 abilities that are moderately good (healing, buffing, spellpoints) and 1 that is rarely powerful (stun immune). Inevitable Dominion has 1 ability that is marginally helpful (Shaken from Fist of Dark), and the rest vacillate between "too weak" and "they're immune". To be generous we could pretend that enough enemies had healers so that the curing debuff was useful, but that would still leave Inevitable Dominion as too weak.

It's simply far too hard to justify playing a Dark monk; it would be the weaker choice even if the Light monk's buffs were all self-only, but considering that a Dark monk also passes up on the opportunity to improve his party, it's indefensible. I won't detail suggestions as to how to fix it; ideas have been posted a lot already. (If bosses weren't immune to the finisher debuffs that'd be a good start!)

As for the upcoming specialties, they seem OK and have straightforward themes. Ninja-spy is rogue-like, Shintao is paladinish, and Henshin Mystic is castery. Here are some features I'd expect they provide.

Ninja Spy will obviously get Sneak Attack, and if DDO rangers gain HIPS at next level then monks could get it from tier 3 Ninja (rogues would also have an opportunity to buy HIPS with APs).

Naturally Ninja Spy will also boost the Hide/MoveSilently/Jump/Tumble/Listen skills (+faster sneaking), and it would be fun if it provided a stealth-only Ki attack along the line of Assassin Death Attack, but weaker. That might be a Venom Touch that only applies on a sneak attack (maybe str damage for primary, then con damage after a 30 second delay). As others have suggested, Ninja Spy could require Path of Inevitable Dominion (but that'd be problematic if that path continues to be so much weaker). Although the Ninja Spy class doesn't turn Invisible, the Ninja base-class from Complete Adventurer does, so the DDO Ninja should get 30-60 sec invis by spending Ki. A bonus resembling Rogue Subtle Backstabbing could be nice.

It would be natural for Ninja Spy to synergize with rogue explicitly; that could be done by allowing Sneak Attack to substitute for one of the feat prereqs.

EDIT: Side topic related to monks who sneak: Stunning Blow doesn't break you out of stealth mode, but Stunning Fist does. That might not be a good thing, if you hoped to emulate an Assassin Rogue.

Henshin Mystic: Passive Detect Invis, later passive True Sight. Uncanny Dodge. Spend Ki to cast Fire Shield, Charm Monster, or to self-buff with knockdown immune (like Rogue Acrobat, but temporary). More duration from the monk's Etherealness ability (which I presume will give you an incorporeal miss-chance against foes). That's still a little weak, so probably some more fire-damage on punches would help. It would also make sense to give a little bonus to the passive monk SR.

Because charming monsters in DDO is sometimes counterproductive (it obstructs you from killing them), he could also get another Will-based CC effect like Hypnosis. Neither that nor Charm Monster will be particularly powerful if the DC comes from cha instead of wis. Another cool variant would be a 10-Ki punch which causes the enemy to fight against his allies for only long enough for one attack (since it lasts so short, the enemy wouldn't switch to your side and become immune to your party's damage; it would just very briefly be tricked into hurting a friend)

It wouldn't hurt to also let the Henshin Mystic spend Ki to self-buff with short-duration Barkskin and Stoneskin... they're mystical abilities representative of transformation to other forms of existence. In fact, it would be helpful if they got a mass-buff to give Natural Armor to all nearby allies (for only 60 seconds, as usual with monk buffs). That would partly equalize the AC gap between parties with and without a ranger in them (but not overshadow rangers if the bonus is lesser).


Shintao: Passive bonus to attack/damage against evil undead/outsiders/abberations, and prehaps other kinds of extra-corrupt monsters. Bonus duration on your buff finishers (this spec would probably require Path of Harmonious Balance). Passive fire+cold resist of 10 per tier. Spend Ki to strike with Holy damage, or Light damage, or to self-buff with heal over time, or to cast Prot Fire/Cold, or to debuff an enemy's spellcasting (like the effect of Trembling Earth, but with a longer range and a lower save DC). Since Paladins get Deathward, Shintao could self-buff it with Ki. Give it pally synergy by adding +1 to your Smite charges, +1 crit mult on all unarmed smites, or even stack monk+paladin levels for smiting damage.

It could also make sense to get bonuses on Diplomacy and a toggle for more threat generation.

In addition, I suggest Shintao Monk project an Aura of Good with +1,+2,+3 bonuses like a low-level paladin would have. That would provide another source of a bonus that PCs can't get any other way, reducing the AC gap between groups with and without a Paladin in them (but it wouldn't overshadow real Paladins, because at level 18 they'll bring much better than +3).

EDIT: Oh, and Shintao needs a 50-ki punch to cast Dismissal on the target. To make it more limited to the flavor, it only works on creatures who are chaotic or evil (thus not elementals, who are less-offensive to the Shintao sense of purity). In gameplay that'd be similar to Quivering Palm, but with a minor advantage versus demons who have more Fort than Will.


Monk players would enjoy it if some of those specialties allowed them to remain centered while holding a slightly bigger range of weapons- however, DDO doesn't include weapons that'd be really great with that theme. It'd be best to do that with weapons that only have poor crits, so they don't really overshadow fists or kama. Henshin Mystic could get Club and Sickle, while Ninja Spy would use Dart and Throwing Dagger (it's tough to visualize a Ninja who can't use darts!).

Many players have requested a Drunken Master specialty, but that would actually be a bad idea because it's a joke class that would require a bunch of new artwork animation, and at the end you'd have people fighting Suulomades with a broken flowerpot. If the improvised weapon is better than fists then it looks silly, and if it's worse then the specialty is wasted. There's no good way out of that except not to do it. A game needs a more robust set of effectively-functioning iconic classes before it has room for joke specialties. And that's without even contemplating what alcoholism would do to the game rating...

An additional way to add complexity to the monk specialties (which would allow them to have better benefits without being overpowered) would be to tied some of their benefits to monk stances. Either declare that certain specialty benefits only work in a particular stance, or have each spec grant a new stance that carries bonuses, penalties, and which doesn't conflict with the regular 4 stances. As an example, suppose that Henshin Mystic gave you 15,30,45 resistance against the energy of the stance you're currently using. Or that Shintao gets a stance for +cha, -dex, deathward, and bonus damage against evil.

[Draccus]

I can't believe Turbine would even mention the N word. I can't think of a faster way to ruin a good game than to introduce the ultimate in middle-school, munchkin kiddie-classes: The Ninja.

Maybe they could make then like the first 3e attempt at the Ninja. I think it had rogue sneak attack progression, fighter AB progression, +1 to all saves every level, barbarian hit dice, invisibility, HiPS, arcane spellcasting, and the ability to insta-kill entire populations with a glance.

www.realultimatepower.net ...that's what DDO needs. *rolls eyes*

[Borror0]

I can't believe Turbine would even mention the N word. I can't think of a faster way to ruin a good game than to introduce the ultimate in middle-school, munchkin kiddie-classes: The Ninja.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ninjas gimped rogues in D&D?

I don't have oriental adventures so I can't verify that one.

[Angelus_dead]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ninjas gimped rogues in D&D?
Yes, both the Ninja base class and Ninja prestige class are weak. I'll have to go research the 1st ed Ninja: it was freaky because you were obliged to multiclass as a cover identity (you couldn't even tell the party you were a ninja!)

The central shtick of the Ninja base class is he gets Sneak Attack that only works from stealth, not flanking. So calling him a gimped rogue is very accurate.

[Aspenor]

Yes, both the Ninja base class and Ninja prestige class are weak. I'll have to go research the 1st ed Ninja: it was freaky because you were obliged to multiclass as a cover identity (you couldn't even tell the party you were a ninja!)

The central shtick of the Ninja base class is he gets Sneak Attack that only works from stealth, not flanking. So calling him a gimped rogue is very accurate.

IIRC it's actually when mobs are flat-footed or denied dex bonus to AC....

which usually only happens when attacking from stealth, or the monster is under some magical effect....which is very very rare.

yeah, gimped rogue is the best way to put it.

[Desteria]

the ability is calls suddent strike, nijias did get a swift action invisability though sooooo deniign dex was not that hard at leats a few times perday, (dotn realber the useage numbers).

They had a few other neat abbilities btu in most cases gimped rouges is true but then the BEST rouges only haev a few rouge levels and have nija and sionic levels soo around levle 13 they have 12d6 sneak attack ;) gogogo extream muticlassign and lots of PRC's

[Borror0]

the ability is calls suddent strike
Isn't it not Ghost Strike?

[Aspenor]

Isn't it not Ghost Strike?

it's sudden strike, he's right about that.

it's questionable whether the rogue/(whatever) is more powerful than the spellthief.

the other, other rogue class in eberron, the artificer, is, on the other hand, more powerful than any other class in the hands of a power gamer.

[nbhs275]

it's sudden strike, he's right about that.

it's questionable whether the rogue/(whatever) is more powerful than the spellthief.

the other, other rogue class in eberron, the artificer, is, on the other hand, more powerful than any other class in the hands of a power gamer.

sudden strike tends to be junk...maybe if they are making it more in line with the scout class...

[Borror0]

scout class...
That just sounds wrong.

Prereq: 9 ranks in Use Rope?

[Aspenor]

That just sounds wrong.

Prereq: 9 ranks in Use Rope?

scouts deal what's known as "skirmish damage," similar to sneak attack damage. IIRC, without finding the book, you deal extra damage when you move in a round.

[Angelus_dead]

sudden strike tends to be junk
Well, the D&D game design of Sudden Strike would have been improved if it advanced faster than Sneak Attack, maybe 2d6 per 3 levels instead of 1d6 per 2 levels, but it only applied once per round. That would balance off against the fewer situations when you can use the bonus. (Magical Invisibility doesn't work, after all, if the enemies get a Detect Invis or TS buff, which is a good idea anyhow)

If the DDO Ninja Spy were to be based on Sudden Strike so it only works from stealth instead of from "flanking" (which is not an approach I recommend), the devs would probably majorly increase the damage so it gives you a serious burst DPS on your first hit against a mob.

[nbhs275]

scouts deal what's known as "skirmish damage," similar to sneak attack damage. IIRC, without finding the book, you deal extra damage when you move in a round.

yep. The class had movement boosts, strong skills(though i don't think they could deal with traps) and are very well suited to tactical play. Especially with shot on the run/multishot, pounce abilities, or spring attack.

[Angelus_dead]

yep. The class had movement boosts, strong skills(though i don't think they could deal with traps)
It would be somewhat fun to see a scout's Skirmish ability tried in DDO, but I'm afraid it would be bad overall. That class gets so much of its damage from Skirmish that the character would basically have to be running back and forth all the time in combat- and since DDO lacks things like AOO and space blocked by your own party, archery scouts would essentially just run in squares with wasdwasdwasd as they shoot. That type of activity would look weird, be disruptive, and lack the balancing drawbacks it had in D&D.

Oh, and scouts have the same trap finding ability as a rogue, ninja, spellthief, artificer or beguiler.

PS. If Skirmish didn't have that incentive to run in squares or circles while you fight, I'd suggest it be added to Ranger enhancements as an alternative to Tempest.

[BlackSteel]

I would essentially just run in squares with wasdwasdwasd as they shoot. That type of activity would look weird, be disruptive, and lack the balancing drawbacks it had in D&D.
.

LoL you mean like how THF 'ers have to do to keep up in DPS? or what they should do if they want to do respectable damage (lots of people are lazy)

[TommyBoy]

Barbarian Occult Slayer
Like getting Favored Enemy Spellcaster. In addition to extra damage and saves against spellcasters, you also have a chance to interrupt their casting or even bounce spells back on them. Also some immunity against mental spells (a little like having your own FOM). In addition, the specialty might give related D&D effects like the Mageslayer feat tree (which lets your weapon dispel Blur, Displacement, Barkskin, Shield...)

do beholders count as spellcasters because my WF barb already finds them one of the easiest mobs to take out with this... well giant eye ball soup anyone?

[Aspenor]

do beholders count as spellcasters because my WF barb already finds them one of the easiest mobs to take out with this... well giant eye ball soup anyone?

that depends, does the beholder have mage levels??

if not, then no :D

[WeiQuinn]

It would be somewhat fun to see a scout's Skirmish ability tried in DDO, but I'm afraid it would be bad overall. That class gets so much of its damage from Skirmish that the character would basically have to be running back and forth all the time in combat- and since DDO lacks things like AOO and space blocked by your own party, archery scouts would essentially just run in squares with wasdwasdwasd as they shoot. That type of activity would look weird, be disruptive, and lack the balancing drawbacks it had in D&D.

Oh, and scouts have the same trap finding ability as a rogue, ninja, spellthief, artificer or beguiler.

PS. If Skirmish didn't have that incentive to run in squares or circles while you fight, I'd suggest it be added to Ranger enhancements as an alternative to Tempest.

I actually rolled up a character based on the Scout some time ago. Syris is a Ranger 12/Rogue 3/Fighter 1 (probably didn't need the Fighter level, but wanted Tempest sooner in my build when it first came out, so took advantage of the extra feat). Of course, this was way before we found out Tempest III comes at level 18....

I figure I'll just take Ranger the rest of the way, then once Epic levels arrive, the final 2 Ranger levels to get Tempest III. Probably go to Ranger 20, then continue with Rogue levels after that (pickup Way of the Mechanic to augment Trapsmithing).

[baddax]

Many players have requested a Drunken Master specialty, but that would actually be a bad idea because it's a joke class that would require a bunch of new artwork animation, and at the end you'd have people fighting Suulomades with a broken flowerpot. If the improvised weapon is better than fists then it looks silly, and if it's worse then the specialty is wasted. There's no good way out of that except not to do it. A game needs a more robust set of effectively-functioning iconic classes before it has room for joke specialties. And that's without even contemplating what alcoholism would do to the game rating...

.

Who needs special graphics and such? Give me a 12 pack or a 5th of Gin let me log into my my account as Black and Presto One Drunken Monkey Monk! Btw as a fellow student of the art of Drunken monkey we dont take kindly to being called a Joke class! :mad: I call for throwing Shrurikens at 20 paces! Defned your honor Sir!

[frugal_gourmet]

I would like some kind of "force savant" for sorcerers.

[Angelus_dead]

I would like some kind of "force savant" for sorcerers.
That's called the "Argent Savant" class in D&D. It's a pretty weak class, and at only 5 levels doesn't have enough features to build a DDO specialty from. What it does is obvious: more damage from your force spells, and you take less damage from force, and also your Shield and Mage Armor give more AC.

And of course, there are so few force spells in DDO that the class wouldn't have much to do. The best force spell isn't even usable by sorcerers! And DDO doesn't even consider it force...

In the spirit of easy improvements, here are some Force spells that could be added to DDO:

Force Missile
You may think it's already part of DDO, but not quite. In addition to the single-target damage, it should have a minor AOE nearby.

Chain Missile
sorc/wiz 3
You shoot one magic missile plus one more per two caster levels (max 10), each doing 1d4+1 damage. They inerrantly strike your target, and then half of the missiles proceed to strike other nearby enemies, up to one more per two caster levels. Graphically it resembles Chain Lightning crossed with Magic Missile.
(My version is noticably ramped-up from the D&D original, which hit non-primary targets with only )

Mordenkainen's Sword
sorc/wiz 7
Allowed metamagic: Extend, Quicken
You create a floating sword of magical force that remains for 2 sec/level. It flies to your target and begins attacking once per two seconds, with an attack bonus equal to 5+caster level+(int or cha mod)+(evoc focus), and doing 4d6+5 19-20/x2 damage. Each additional attack has a cumulative +5 bonus, until it resets at +20. Force-spell boosters apply to the damage. If the target dies or the caster goes out of control range, the sword stops and hovers in the air. You may only have one Mordenkainen's Sword at a time, and attempting to cast it again before it expires consumes no spellpoints, instead redirecting the existing sword to a new target.

(This provides an easy way for wizards to add some moderate DPS to a fight. Someone else is likely to kill the monster before this spell, but you can use the leftover damage on another foe)

[Drwaz99]

Exactly what this community needed. Give us a glimpse of whats to come, make no promises and your going to see much happier people with much less whining and complaining. We have a bunch of super intelligent people on the forums that could give priceless ideas with little to no knowledge of what was announced. Imagine all the free ideas. I have been hoping for more hint/possibility drops for upcoming updates for years. Any reasonable perosn knows they can and will change depending on time, but the amount we have to look foward to increases immensely.

Thank you Devs, five days ago, I was teetering on not renewing my subscription and waiting until Diablo 3 or some other game came out. If this continues, you may have just changed my mind. 2 thumbs up!

[Delt]

I'm still a little saddened by the lack of Drow-favored path... I hope they have something planned for Drow.

[RangerRat]

I am welcoming any and all updates, especially ones that put our toons on EPIC status. I do wonder though, this really isn't a Dungeons and Dragons PNP that I grew up to. I find that the characters that I have rolled in the past and played and was lucky enough to get to high level couldn't even had wished for some of the items that we have here. The statistics are blown up. Most characters I have played or ones you read about have how many uber items? Don't get me wrong, I love DDO and live on it. This game is just so Monty Hall I don't think PNP will ever be able to compete.

[Ustice]

Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Dragonmark Heir, Stalwart Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

Halflings should be able to take Thief Acrobat as a racial PrE

[Borror0]

Halflings should be able to take Thief Acrobat as a racial PrE
LOL, I thought you were going to ask for Shadowdancer or Arcane Trickster.

[Ustice]

Both would be cool additions to the Rogue class, but if Thief Acrobat is going to be added and we will have racial PrE's then Halflings should get that.

[Vesuvia]

I wasn't quite sure what the elemental savants were for Sorcerer's so I google'd it ;) Is this what we should basically expect, or something close, or will it just be boosting the spell's damage fire for fire, cold for cold, etc?

Elemental Savants study the basic building blocks of existance, air, earth, fire, and water, learning to harness their powers. Eventually they transcend their mortal forms and become elemental beings. Elemental savants often begin their careers as individuals intrigued by one or all of the classic elements.
Before they ever take levels in the prestige class, these spellcasters typically find themselves drawn to spells of a particular energy type. These spellcasters find satisfaction in the unleashed purity of the elemental energy forms, and they become elemental savants to become closer to the element that becomes their favorite.
Most elemental savants start out as warmages, wizards, or sorcerers, although divine spellcasters are not unknown in the class. A cleric with the Fire, Water, or Sun domain could also qualify for this prestige class.
NPC elemental savants usually prefer to pursue their studies in solitude or in the company of other elemental savants. Sometimes groups of them gather in places where an element's majesty and power is on display, such as the flanks of a volcano, an island, or a high, windy mountain.
Adaptation: Making a particular element the basis for the theme of a spellcaster's repertoire is an idea that could exist in most any game. For a twist, you might wnt to consider elements that go beyond the standard, though this would require some work on the DM's part. Other elements might include: bone, metal, nether, plasma, and wood, to name a few. Determining the sort of damage each of these elements does, and how that type of damage interacts with the four recognized types of energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, and fire) is the crux of this design process.

Elemental Specialty(Ex)
The first step toward transcending mortal form requires an elemental savant to choose her elemental specialty. Upon entering the class, she must select an element and its associated energy type (air = electricity, earth = acid, fire = fire, or water = cold).
This choice must match the Energy Substitution feat that the savant selected to gain entry to the prestige class.
When the savant casts a spell that normally deals energy damage, its energy descriptor changes to the savant's chosen energy type, and it deals damage of that energy type instead of its normal energy type.
For example, an elemental savant choosing to specialize in fire could still cast Meld Into Stone, and its descriptor would not change because it does not deal energy damage.
However, if she casts Acid Arrow, the spell would deal fire damage and have the fire descriptor instead of dealing acid damage and having the acid descriptor.

Resistance to Energy(Ex)
As an elemental savant gains levels in this prestige class, she becomes more resistant to the type of energy allied with her chosen element.
At 1st level, she gains resistance 5 against this energy type. This resistance rises to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 7th level.

Immunity to Sleep(Ex)
At 2nd level, as an elemental savant continues to transcend her mortal form, she gains immunity to sleep effects.

Energy Penetration(Ex)
Beginning at 3rd level, an elemental savant further refines her ability to wield energy associated with her chosen element.
When she casts a spell using that type of energy, she gains a +2 competence bonus on caster level checks (1d20+caster level) to overcome a creature's resistance.
At 8th level, this bonus increases to +4. These bonuses stack with those granted by the Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats.

Energy Focus(Ex)
From 5th level on, an elemental savant is better able to manipulate energy associated with her chosen element. The save DC for any spell with that energy descriptor increases by 1.
At 10th level, these save DCs increase by 1 again (total increase of 2). These increases are cumulative with those granted by the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats.

Darkvision(Ex)
At 6th level, an elemental savant gains darkvision out to 60 feet, or increases her previous Darkvision range by 60 feet.

Immunity to Paralysis and Poison(Ex)
As an elemental savant approaches elemental perfection, she gains immunity to paralysis and poison at 9th level.
Elemental Perfection
At 10th level, an elemental savant, through long association with elemental entities and extensive study of their secrets, completely transcends her mortal form to become an elemental creature.
Her type changes to elemental. She no longer needs to eat, sleep, or breathe (though she must still rest to regain spells). She gains an elemental creature's immunity to stunning, and she is no longer subject to extra damage from critical hits or flanking.
An elemental savant gains the speed and movement modes, natural attacks, special attacks, and special qualities of a Medium elemental of the type appropriate to her elemental specialty, as noted in the Monster Manual, except that the save DC against here elemental attack form, if any (whirlwind, burn, or vortex) is 20 + her Con modifier.
Unlike a normal elemental, an elemental savant retains a soul seperate from her body. She can be raised from the dead as normal for a creature of her previous type.

Energy Immunity(Ex)
From 10th level on, an elemental savant gains immunity to the type of energy associated with her chosen element.

[Angelus_dead]

A few times in this thread I have suggested granting abilities that provide new sources of otherwise exclusive buffs; a bonus that can currently be provided by only one character class.

There are a few of these in DDO:
1. Bards provide a morale bonus to attack and damage (up to +7/+8, going up later)
2. Rangers provide a +5 natural armor bonus to AC. (Potions or Madstone provides a smaller bonus, and bring drawbacks)
3. Paladins provide an unnamed bonus to AC and saves (up to +5/+4), which might be labeled as an "OfGood" bonus type. (It will go up again at lev18 with Defender of Siberys)

Class features like that are enjoyable for the players who have them, but they create a game balance problem: there can be a big disparity between parties which have those buffs and which don't, and there's no way for a party lacking that class to even partially close the gap (applies less to Natural Armor than the other types).

Therefore, it would be helpful to allow other classes to provide the same type of bonus with reduced power: most likely with lesser magnitude, but also possibly with fewer targets or less duration. That way parties are still rewarded for bringing the primary class with the strongest buff, but they have an option to take some other character type and still get a lesser bonus.

It's important to remember that no class should not rely too heavily on these features to be valued in a group, and they need other abilities to make them "stack" with other characters bringing the same buff.

Summary of suggestions along those lines:
Purple Dragon Knight: Mass buff +2, +3, +4 morale bonus to attack/damage. (Non-warchanter bards have +2/+2, +4/+5, and +6/+6 at those levels)
Shintao Monk: Aura effect +1, +2, +3 OfGood bonus to AC/saves. (Non-Defender paladins have +2/+2, +4/+4, and +5/+4 at those levels)
Henshin Mystic: Mass buff +2, +3, +4 Natural Armor AC (along with other effect).
Stalwart Defender: Passive self-bonus +3, +4, +5 Natural Armor AC.

Additionally it wouldn't hurt to let PDK's mass-buff include a +1,+2,+3 OfGood bonus to AC (not saves), even though that's stretching the usual definition of what "OfGood" means.

PS. I made a ton of suggestions (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168824) for continued bard features.

[Trillea]

Disappointed that Arcane Trickster didn't make the list. My little guy would love to be able to disable a trap from 30' away.

Amen!

[barecm]

Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:


Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest




Is there any confirmation if Deepwood and/or Arcane made it into this mod? It would be a shame to only give Tempest (the most over used enhancement line in the game) an increase while leaving out a ranged enhancement increase (which the game desperately needs).

[FluffyCalico]

Sorcerer: Air Savant,
Wizard: Archmage,


These 2 seem broken. Turn into a wind ele and nothing will ever stand up again! Or be able to make your favorite spell whatever type of damage the thing is vulnerable to.

[SneakThief]

Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Dragonmark Heir, Stalwart Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

To any Turbine folks wondering by: It would be immensly helpful to returning players trying to catch up on all the news if you could go back and link the items in the first post to thier respective threads. :D :D :D

[slumbering_dragon]

yes plz, add links. i've been gone for almost 3months and am swamped with all the news, and my little head cant wrap around it all.

[FluffyCalico]

A few times in this thread I have suggested granting abilities that provide new sources of otherwise exclusive buffs; a bonus that can currently be provided by only one character class.

There are a few of these in DDO:
1. Bards provide a morale bonus to attack and damage (up to +7/+8, going up later)
2. Rangers provide a +5 natural armor bonus to AC. (Potions or Madstone provides a smaller bonus, and bring drawbacks)
3. Paladins provide an unnamed bonus to AC and saves (up to +5/+4), which might be labeled as an "OfGood" bonus type. (It will go up again at lev18 with Defender of Siberys)

Class features like that are enjoyable for the players who have them, but they create a game balance problem: there can be a big disparity between parties which have those buffs and which don't, .

So let me make sure I understand correctly...

You are mad because in DDO it works better if you build your party well?

In every DnD session I ever played 1-2 people would pick their character and then the last 2 people would pick classes that made for a good group.

The whole point of classes is to bring something special to the party. Please do not make this where you invite 1 healer and 11 at random as it no longer matters what they are.

[Borror0]

So let me make sure I understand correctly...

You are mad because in DDO it works better if you build your party well?
Nope. He is saying it would make it easier to balance dungeons and easier for us to group if we remove exclusivity on buffs.

For example, the AC a character can have skyrockets if you have the right party make-up. This poses a problem for the game developers as either those with a non-optimal get their ass kicked or the ones with an optimal party walk through the quest too easily.

The same apply to bard buffs, where the difference between Inspire Courage and no Inspire Courage is quite noticeable.

Removing the exclusivity makes having the ones best at it "nice" but not "must-haves".

Now, perhaps requiring all these classes is what you view as "building your party well", but if that is the case, then "building your party well" is synonymous with "not having fun". Waiting around for the right class to show up is not something I have seen a lot of players enjoy. Making of these classes "nice additions" rather than "must-haves" goes a long way into making grouping easier and more enjoyable for everyone.

[Angelus_dead]

So let me make sure I understand correctly...

You are mad because in DDO it works better if you build your party well?

In every DnD session I ever played 1-2 people would pick their character and then the last 2 people would pick classes that made for a good group.

The whole point of classes is to bring something special to the party. Please do not make this where you invite 1 healer and 11 at random as it no longer matters what they are.
Quoted for reasons I'm prohibited from revealing.

[moorewr]

Quoted for reasons I'm prohibited from revealing.

You paragon of self control, you. :)

[Angelus_dead]

Removing the exclusivity makes having the ones best at it "nice" but not "must-haves".
I'm too lazy to expand on that in detail, but the WOW developers have a good description of their analogous thought process (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/15443248148-a-plea-to-remove-replenishment.html).

Apparently in an earlier version, exactly 1 of the 9 classes provided a mana buff (Priest, I think), which really constrained membership possibilities for tough raids. In their upcoming update, 4 of the 10 classes will provide a mana buff, and they won't stack with each other (I guess that'll be Priest, Hunter, Mage, and one other) (Notice that by allowing a non-mana class like Hunter to buff mana, they are prioritizing balance over verisimilitude)

(If I were more enthused, I could hunt for older posts where they describe that topic more extensively)

[Angelus_dead]

I'm too lazy to expand on that in detail, but the WOW developers have a good description of their analogous thought process (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/15443248148-a-plea-to-remove-replenishment.html).
Stealing a bit more of the WOW devs' explanation (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/15443248148-a-plea-to-remove-replenishment.html) of a similar change:


-- We can’t give everyone a unique buff that guarantees them a raid slot. We tried this in BC. What happens is that the classes with necessary buffs are brought and the others are ignored. There are 10 classes and 30 specs in the game. You can’t bring them all to a 25-player raid or certainly a 10-player raid.
-- We asked some cutting-edge raiders during LK development: How many balance druids, ret paladins or death knights are you going to bring? The answer was probably none. They didn’t have any space.
-- So our solution was to give you multiple ways to get the buffs. Different specs bring different versions of the same benefit that do not stack. Hopefully those specs will be attractive, but not so attractive that you want to stack the raid with them. You have more flexibility. You can make decisions about which players to bring.
-- In BC, Shadow priests brought the buff that we now call Replenishment. As a result, Shadow priests were pretty much mandatory to raid in BC. Great for Shadow priests. Bad for other dps classes. Our solution was not to cut the mechanic but to offer it to more specs to give you more flexibility.

Standard Disclaimer: Just because WOW did it, doesn't mean it's bad.

[Tanka]

Standard Disclaimer: Just because WOW did it, doesn't mean it's bad.
As a matter of fact, I'd say they have a lot more experience in making the game "fun" for their players. Lots of people that play DDO don't like its mechanics, but saying "WoW makes bad decisions" is rather counterintuitive -- if they were doing it wrong, they wouldn't have over 10 million active subscribers (note: above figure from a year ago).

[Angelus_dead]

As a matter of fact, I'd say they have a lot more experience in making the game "fun" for their players. Lots of people that play DDO don't like its mechanics, but saying "WoW makes bad decisions" is rather counterintuitive -- if they were doing it wrong, they wouldn't have over 10 million active subscribers (note: above figure from a year ago).
In press releases they've gone up to 11.5 million, but just like McDonald's served, they've stopped updating their advertising to the new peak numbers.

(The number is exaggerated anyway, because all game services use a really loose definition of an "active" subscription)

[Yaga_Nub]

.... verisimilitude....

Is this your word for the day on your desk calendar?

[Angelus_dead]

Is this your word for the day on your desk calendar?
Obviously not.

All game designers should be well aware of the pressure for verisimilitude and how it conflicts with other product goals (and how it differs from "realism")

[Tanka]

Is this your word for the day on your desk calendar?
What's the matter, Yaga? Afflicted by hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia?

[Angelus_dead]

What's the matter, Yaga? Afflicted by hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia?
I admit, it's rather a shibboleth.

[Hadrian]

Nope. He is saying it would make it easier to balance dungeons and easier for us to group if we remove exclusivity on buffs.

For example, the AC a character can have skyrockets if you have the right party make-up. This poses a problem for the game developers as either those with a non-optimal get their ass kicked or the ones with an optimal party walk through the quest too easily.



We do have different difficulty levels, and I think that is how they handle the balance that you're talking about. You have the option choose the appropriate difficulty setting for the amount of effort you're willing to put into preparing your party. If you're one of those groups that will get their butts kicked, play Normal. If you're one that will walk through too easily, play Elite.

I understand your point, but part of the draw of this game is the diversity of the classes and the ability to make your own build with strengths and weaknesses that suit you. If you start to limit the differences between what two different characters can offer, you take some of that away. I think that would have a larger negative effect than positive.

[Angelus_dead]

If you want to take on a quest on Elite, be willing to take the time to form a group that you feel is up to it.
....
Just choose the appropriate difficulty setting for the amount of effort you're willing to put into preparing your party.
Whiskey fallacy.

It's not really a question of "spending time" or "spending effort", but of "reducing diversity" and "excluding people".

[sephiroth1084]

What's the matter, Yaga? Afflicted by hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia?

I think that may be the most ironically self-contained word I've ever seen. Good job Tanka! :p

[Hadrian]

Whiskey fallacy.

I tried to be fair to the points being made, and I would appreciate the same courtesy in response.


It's not really a question of "spending time" or "spending effort", but of "reducing diversity" and "excluding people".

Borror0 made a point about taking extra time, and my comment was meant to speak to his concern. I do agree with you in that it's not a matter of time or effort, and I was stating why. You can easily avoid that by simply going in on normal if you find that to be a problem for you, personally.


Waiting around for the right class to show up is not something I have seen a lot of players enjoy. Making of these classes "nice additions" rather than "must-haves" goes a long way into making grouping easier and more enjoyable for everyone.

Secondly, it is most certainly about excluding people. Elite (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/elite.html)

If you're going to argue that this is the problem, then it would seem to me that you're arguing for a shift in the way the game is currently designed. I do not agree with that shift, and wish to make it clear why. Allow me to restate my main point to make sure that it remains clear:



I understand your point, but part of the draw of this game is the diversity of the classes and the ability to make your own build with strengths and weaknesses that suit you. If you start to limit the differences between what two different characters can offer, you take some of that away. I think that would have a larger negative effect than positive.

[Borror0]

You can easily avoid that by simply going in on normal if you find that to be a problem for you, personally.
Well, that is not even a workaround to the problem.

First of all, there is currently no significant reward to run a quest on Elite over Normal and thus it is ran on Normal instead. Secondly, even if there was a reward the problem would still exist since running the quest on Normal would not yield the same benefits than it would on Elite, the same problems would remain.

If you're going to argue that this is the problem, then it would seem to me that you're arguing for a shift in the way the game is currently designed. I do not agree with that shift, and wish to make it clear why.
It is as much of a shift as allowing rogue splashes to disable traps...

[Angelus_dead]

I tried to be fair to the points being made, and I would appreciate the same courtesy in response.
I really wish I could respond fairly, but that's unfortunately prohibited.

[Angelus_dead]

If you're going to argue that this is the problem, then it would seem to me that you're arguing for a shift in the way the game is currently designed. I do not agree with that shift, and wish to make it clear why. Allow me to restate my main point to make sure that it remains clear:
Your main point is that diversity in builds is valuable, which conflicts with your conclusion, because you oppose changes to increase diversity.

Here's a simple concrete example. Which is more diverse?
1. Every raid must include a bard.
2. Every raid must include a bard or PDK.

[Hadrian]

Your main point is that diversity in builds is valuable, which conflicts with your conclusion, because you oppose changes to increase diversity.

Here's a simple concrete example. Which is more diverse?
1. Every raid must include a bard.
2. Every raid must include a bard or PDK.

You're defining diversity as the ability to have a group make up consist of anything without having any downside.

I am defining diversity as character uniqueness.

My conclusion doesn't support what you are calling diversity, but it does support my own view. Let me state that again: Character uniqueness is an important part of what DDO offers, and I do not believe that making classes/builds less unique would be beneficial for DDO.

The problem that you're having is that you're trying to apply your definition of diversity to my statements. This is what I am trying to disagree with. Naturally, pretending that I mean the opposite of what I said will make it seem like I am not making sense. It's not a "whiskey fallacy" simply because I disagree with your definition of diversity.

[Tanka]

I am defining diversity as character uniqueness.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5368/unique.jpg

[Borror0]

Character uniqueness is an important part of what DDO offers, and I do not believe that making classes/builds less unique would be beneficial for DDO.
Your position is more like:

"I feel it is important for a group to have a rigid structure, even at the cost of making grouping much harder."
It's not reducing character uniqueness but rather making class less powerful in some area.

The character is still bringing something unique to the group but the group is less penalized by not having him.

[Hadrian]

Your position is more like:

"I feel it is important for a group to have a rigid structure, even at the cost of making grouping much harder."
It's not reducing character uniqueness but rather making class less powerful in some area.

The character is still bringing something unique to the group but the group is less penalized by not having him.

I see that you're very set in your opinions and not going to try to have a discussion.

My point is more like what I actually said. Spreading out abilities so that no one can stand out is not in increase in diversity. It is quite obvious that it accomplishes the opposite.

If you wish to try to convince the developers that such a drastic change is necessary, you're going to have to do better than rewording someone's disagreements to something that you can handle. And no, that does not include accusing someone of logical fallacies simply because they disagree with an opinion that you hold and assume is an absolute truth.

Currently, it is more optimal to bring one class over another in some situations, but I have yet to see an absolute need for any one specific class in any quest. Even the high-end raids have All-Class-X runs done on them, which should show that the basis of your argument is itself a fallacy.

[Borror0]

My point is more like what I actually said. Spreading out abilities so that no one can stand out is not in increase in diversity. It is quite obvious that it accomplishes the opposite.
Maybe not in character diversity, but it certainly does add gameplay diversity.

It does not negatively affect character diversity, though. Clerics would still be best at healing even though bards would be given better healing than now. Paladins would still be the preferred class for the Aura bonus, even if PDK gained some of it. Rangers would still be the king of Barkskin, etc.

In fact, in some cases, the benefit on diversity would be positive rather than neutral (bard gaining better healing).

You don't need to be unique to be useful. Characters in DDO are not one trick ponies. X rng/1 rog being able to disable traps has never rendered rogues useless in a quest/group and in this case both are equal (the ranger can deal with traps as good as the rogue) both classes have other things to offer.

[Hadrian]

Maybe not in character diversity, but it certainly does add gameplay diversity.



To have different classes with different means of accomplishing the same thing is diversity.

To suggest that classes be given lesser versions of other classes tools so that everyone can accomplish the same thing in the same way is to attempt to lessen diversity.

You don't need to be unique to be useful, but you are the one talking about how useful something is. I simply said that character diversity is an important part of what DDO offers as an MMOG. Whether or not you can make something useful is up to you. Because of the diverse options, it is very possible to make a horrible mess of a character. I see that as a good thing. You may disagree.

There is currently no need to bring a certain class on a certain quest. It might be possible that a bard will help you finish the Shroud faster, for example. You're not going to fail if you don't have the bard.

What we have now is a situation like you're describing. Not every class is optimal to bring along for a given role, but you can find a role for anyone that you do bring. The only difference is that we might resort to more imaginitive ways of dealing with a problem than simply using a lesser version of the same tools that have defined another class for the past 3 years.

[vtecfiend99]

I really wish I could respond fairly, but that's unfortunately prohibited.

Do you ever come down off that high horse? Is this how you talk to people in person? I bet not because you would get your little ***** mouth slapped right the **** off your face. The last couple days you have been a real **** to people who don't see things your way. As if yours is the only view that could possibly be right. Get a life man, you don't work for turbine, you don't make decisions for them so stop pretending like you are the source of all knowledge in the universe. It's getting old.

[Angelus_dead]

I see that you're very set in your opinions and not going to try to have a discussion.
Yes, I'm set in my opinion, because it happens to be right. I am entirely willing to discuss it, but some of your own statements (including that one) suggest a disinclination to talk reasonably.


If you wish to try to convince the developers that such a drastic change is necessary
For your information: It was the developers who announced that PDK is coming to DDO, and the defining feature of the D&D PDK is that he provides Inspire Courage without being a bard. In other words, one class is gets a weaker version of the benefits of another class. It wasn't my idea, but I did provide some commentary about what changes of that nature could mean.


And no, that does not include accusing someone of logical fallacies simply because they disagree with an opinion that you hold and assume is an absolute truth.
Of course not. The only time to do that would be when fallacious reasoning is observed.


Currently, it is more optimal to bring one class over another in some situations, but I have yet to see an absolute need for any one specific class in any quest.
Anti-nirvana fallacy.


Even the high-end raids have All-Class-X runs done on them, which should show that the basis of your argument is itself a fallacy.
Nonrepresentative exemplar.

[Borror0]

You don't need to be unique to be useful, but you are the one talking about how useful something is. I simply said that character diversity is an important part of what DDO offers as an MMOG. Whether or not you can make something useful is up to you. Because of the diverse options, it is very possible to make a horrible mess of a character.
I don't understand your argument here.

[Hadrian]

Yes, I'm set in my opinion, because it happens to be right. I am entirely willing to discuss it, but some of your own statements (including that one) suggest a disinclination to talk reasonably.




Yes, you have me there. You respond to everything with two words, just enough to call it a fallacy. Since you know that your own opinion is correct, there is no need for you to discuss. Clearly, I am not being reasonable to expect more from a mature discussion.

You called my statement an anti-nirvana fallacy, but I was restating what Borror0 claimed would be a result of spreading out abilities. I think you may have totally missed the point I was trying to make with him.

His statement was that the primary class that owned the ability would still be the best at it. In other words, you can choose another class to get the job done, but it won't be optimal. My point was to show him that we currently have that now.

Clearly that's an anti-nirvana fallacy since it really doesn't come close to meeting the definition.

Also, if you can run a quest with two different all-class-X groups, then it shows that you do not need any specific class to accomplish a quest. We see that happen regularly. This is probably a non-representative exemplar because it directly contradicts the basis of your argument, right? If a certain class was actually required, this could not happen.

Your example question asked which is more diverse, but the question is a false dilema. That is not what we face in DDO. You do not need the bard or the PDK if you don't want to take either one. That's what makes the game diverse.

Again, what you're asking for is to reduce diversity.

Edit: It might be possible that we're crosstalking. What I objected to were statements in the post by Borror0 that is linked here:
.

I have no objection to the PDK, but Borror0 seems to be talking about going much, much further. If you're simply speaking in support of the PDK's abilities, that's really a long way from what Borror0 was talking about.

[Borror0]

if you can run a quest with two different all-class-X groups, then it shows that you do not need any specific class to accomplish a quest.
Just because a situation isn't completely wrong in every measurable way doesn't mean it's acceptable and needs no improvement.

Again, what you're asking for is to reduce diversity.
Please elaborate on that because I don't see it.

[Tanka]

Again, what you're asking for is to reduce diversity.
No, what he's asking for is diversity. You're asking for a reason for characters to be unique, and there is no reason for any character to be any more unique than another.

[Hadrian]

I don't understand your argument here.

I can see that. The problem is that you're discussing this from an entirely different point of view, so you seem to be reshaping my statements to fit how you see things.

Most MMOs suffer from a "cookie cutter" problem where all high level characters of a certain class are virtually identical. If you join a group with a warrior in PvP, you pretty much know how he's going to be set up. There is very little variance because a certain specialization path is pretty well agreed upon as the best by the community.

Part of the charm of DDO is the fact that you can design a build for yourself to accomplish what you wish. You can go more in depth with choosing what strengths and weaknesses you have. You might find a character that fills some typical role, like DPS melee, but surprises you with some ability that you wouldn't normally expect to see on such a character.

UMD is basically a degree of what you're asking for. It gives many classes the option to do a little bit of what another class can do. A bard can heal, yet not as strong as a cleric. A rogue can heal, but not as strong as either one. You can still get the job done with any of them.

But if you take this too far so that you never need to care what you're inviting to a party because everyone can fill the role, you've taken away the meaning of making your own build. You've taken away a reason to try another way to solve a problem. You've dumbed down the game.

[Hadrian]

No, what he's asking for is diversity. You're asking for a reason for characters to be unique, and there is no reason for any character to be any more unique than another.

Do better than just saying "no, you are." I can't really respond to that. My reasons are already stated in some detail. If you wish to disagree with them, state why and I can respond to that.

Secondly, I do not feel your statement represents what I have said. I am not asking for a reason for anything. I am giving a reason why the diversity we have in character creation and building is important to DDO, and why I think your suggestions would reduce that to solve a problem that does not even seem to exist.

You do not need a specific class to do any quest. This is because of the diversity that we already have. You can lack something and work around it, but if you give everyone a version of that "something" there will be no need.

[Hadrian]

Just because a situation isn't completely wrong in every measurable way doesn't mean it's acceptable and needs no improvement.



Just because there are people that cannot find an alternate solution to a problem does not mean you need to lower the bar.

I get it, though. Your minds are made up and I am wasting my time. I'll leave you to go through my posts and assign random fallacy accusations.

[FluffyCalico]

Yes, I'm set in my opinion, because it happens to be right. .

Sorry an opinion is never write or wrong. Facts are true or false. Opinion is something everyone gets to have as they are NEVER right or wrong.

"Opinions can be persuasive, but only the facts they are based on can be said to be true or false."

[Tanka]

Sorry an opinion is never write or wrong.
"I hold the opinion that the Earth is flat."

You're saying that isn't an incorrect opinion?

[FluffyCalico]

"I hold the opinion that the Earth is flat."

You're saying that isn't an incorrect opinion?

You didn't say the world was flat you said that you believe it is. And as long as you do believe it is flat then the opinion is valid. A valid opinion does not mean the fact or assumption it's based on is true or that it's the only valid opinion from those facts.

"An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence, but which cannot be proved with that evidence. An opinion is normally a subjective statement and may be the result of an emotion or an interpretation of facts; people may draw opposing opinions from the same facts."

[Tanka]

You didn't say the world was flat you said that you believe it is. And as long as you do believe it is flat then the opinion is valid. A valid opinion does not mean the fact or assumption it's based on it true.
Incorrect. The opinion is not valid. Not all opinions are created equal.

[FluffyCalico]

Incorrect. The opinion is not valid. Not all opinions are created equal.

Again "An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence, but which cannot be proved with that evidence. An opinion is normally a subjective statement and may be the result of an emotion or an interpretation of facts; people may draw opposing opinions from the same facts."

Try using a dictionary sometime. All you and AD are doing is proving beoynd any doubt why so many people are getting mad. Stop trying to pretend that your alls opinions matter and noone elses do. All you are doing is invalidating all your posts. And just because the 4 of you always watch out for each other doesn't make the opinion anymore valid than anyone elses, it just means you have 3 friends trying to make it look that way.

[Tanka]

All you are doing is invalidating all your posts.
If that's your opinion, it's wrong.

[Lewcipher]

An opinion without pi is just an onion. Whatever that means

[FluffyCalico]

An opinion without pi is just an onion. Whatever that means

Finally someone who knows what an opinion is. /agree

[Angelus_dead]

Sorry an opinion is never write or wrong. Facts are true or false. Opinion is something everyone gets to have as they are NEVER right or wrong.
In my opinion, I'm taller than you.

[FluffyCalico]

In my opinion, I'm taller than you.

Since I don't know how tall you are and you don't know how tall I am this would work.

If we both had confirmation of how tall the other was then we would have a fact that could be verified and not disputed by those of resonable thinking.

[Lewcipher]

Besides...it's a prepositional phrase. Man, you should have said "In my onion". Sounds so much better.

[Tanka]

where your point is dead.
Quoted for hilarity.

[Angelus_dead]

Putting "in my opinion" in front of a fact does not in fact make it an opinion. I know you knew this before you did it. Stop intentionally trying to sidetrack any discussion where your point is dead.
Ok, wow.

There is no way I can respond to someone who'd say that.

[FluffyCalico]

My fav thing about these things is anytime 4 people don't get a thread going the way they want they drag it out into space to make sure it ends. Got to love a thread where only 4 people can ever express their onions as thier opinions are the only ones that are "right"

[Angelus_dead]

I occasionally see someone state "It's my opinion, so it can't be wrong".

And I have to wonder: "How can those people function in the world?" Specifically, how can they function in a domain of creative, aethetic works like literature, cinema, or video games? If you don't believe an opinion can be defended, then you deny the possibility that one work could be better or worse than another.

Is Watchmen better than The Dark Knight? How about Superman Returns? How about Ghost Rider? According to those people, that's an unknowable mystery.

And if you have no way to believe that one game is better than another, the entire concept of suggesting improvements to a game is meaningless.

[Angelus_dead]

My fav thing about these things is anytime 4 people don't get a thread going the way they want they drag it out into space to make sure it ends. Got to love a thread where only 4 people can ever express their onions as thier opinions are the only ones that are "right"
If someone feels I have been in error, they could go ahead and explain where I'm wrong. That might be helpful.

What's not helpful is to attack the whole principle that a correct answer even exists, by calling for every opinion to be equally valued. The ones who come in and dispute the very concept of right or wrong are the ones who derail threads.

[vtecfiend99]

I occasionally see someone state "It's my opinion, so it can't be wrong".

And I have to wonder: "How can those people function in the world?" Specifically, how can they function in a domain of creative, aethetic works like literature, cinema, or video games? If you don't believe an opinion can be defended, then you deny the possibility that one work could be better or worse than another.

Is Watchmen better than The Dark Knight? How about Superman Returns? How about Ghost Rider? According to those people, that's an unknowable mystery.

And if you have no way to believe that one game is better than another, the entire concept of suggesting improvements to a game is meaningless.

So you're telling me that if someone prefers one of those movies over... say the one that YOU think is the best, they are then wrong? Really man, for your own sake please pull you head out of that cave on your hind quarters.

[vtecfiend99]

If someone feels I have been in error, they could go ahead and explain where I'm wrong. That might be helpful.

What's not helpful is to attack the whole principle that a correct answer even exists, by calling for every opinion to be equally valued. The ones who come in and dispute the very concept of right or wrong are the ones who derail threads.

But this is something that YOU DO frequently...

[FluffyCalico]

If someone feels I have been in error, they could go ahead and explain where I'm wrong. That might be helpful.

What's not helpful is to attack the whole principle that a correct answer even exists, by calling for every opinion to be equally valued. The ones who come in and dispute the very concept of right or wrong are the ones who derail threads.

Was not disputing that there is a correct answer. I was pointing out that correct answers are facts not opinions. Everyone gets their opinion including you and me and him or her. Collecting data and getting almost all reasonble thinking people to agree on an answer makes it a fact. Where the issue is when an opinion with little fact and little agreement between anyone is claimed to be the "right one"

An important part of comming up with a solution or a fact is letting everyone imput their opinions. Even if you think someone's opinion is stupid it needs to be allowed to be stated and considered instead of spazzed on.

[Hadrian]

Was not disputing that there is a correct answer. I was pointing out that correct answers are facts not opinions. Everyone gets their opinion including you and me and him or her. Collecting data and getting almost all reasonble thinking people to agree on an answer makes it a fact. Where the issue is when an opinion with little fact and little agreement between anyone is claimed to be the "right one"

An important part of comming up with a solution or a fact is letting everyone imput their opinions. Even if you think someone's opinion is stupid it needs to be allowed to be stated and considered instead of spazzed on.

It can be let go. We've had a chance to share our thoughts. If the developers should decide to read all of this, we can trust that they're intelligent enough people not to be swayed away from sensible arguments by these tactics.

If they read all of these posts, they can still consider our opinions even if others will not. That is all that really matters.

[Ganidel]

Prestige Enhancements planned over the next few modules are:

Halfling: Dragonmark Heir.

Could we see a preview for this?

This seems like it will be pretty cool, as Halfling are healing marks. Also it would be awesome to see this in mod 9.

[Borror0]

Also it would be awesome to see this in mod 9.
All the Module 9 PrE have been presented already.

[Deadz]

Can Shaamis just be the ONLY Brewmaster in Stormreach then, by chance!?!


Buddy you already are :)

[Shade]

Im excited about the Barbarian ones.

Especially Ravager.. Looking up Ravager in complete warrior book... It looks pretty cool. But one of the hard requirements is sacrifcing an innocent person in the name ofthe ravager, and evil alingment.

So does this PrC mean evil alignment will be added for mod 9.1 ? That would rock.

The sorcerer list looks pretty sad tho. It's really just 1, elemental savant from the complete arcane. And it's not even making it into mod 9..

Why does Sorcerer only get 1 when every other class gets 3? (or depending on race sometimes more, as none of the racial ones apply to sorcerers)

[Borror0]

So does this PrC mean evil alignment will be added for mod 9.1 ? That would rock.
Oh, you didn't know? We already got the evil alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm) when they added the Assassin PrE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm).

[Strakeln]

Oh, you didn't know? We already got the evil alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm) when they added the Assassin PrE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm).****... for a second I thought maybe he'd stumbled upon the meaning of V&M.

The implications of adding evil alignment would indeed be vast.

[Favis]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Path:The_Voice_of_Power_(Human_Profile).

While I have nothing against that suggestion of prestige classes for Sorcerers ( Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
)
I think they are to limited.
Even if they are not specific focused on damage none of them focus on the The Voice of Power that is one of the paths Tubin themself sugest people could choice.

I added som quotes from my fellow players about the subject and some more comments. :)


What about
Conjure?
Transmute?
Enchant?
Necro?
...

A Enchant or a Necro would get (almost) nothing from the Savant prestige classes.


What I'm curious to see are the Caster PrE's.

In particular, sorcerer. It sounds as though the sorcerer PrE's are simply some time of elemental/dps specialty lines, which would basically suck, making sorcs only choices b/w different DPS specialties.

Caster burst damage is pretty negated right now in high content, and I can't imagine it changing back any time soon. Only giving sorcs DPS PrE's would not be fun.





The sorcerer list looks pretty sad tho. It's really just 1, elemental savant from the complete arcane.
...



The problem with the sorc specialties is not that they're DPS-only, as that might not even be true. The D&D elemental savant also gets spell penetration, matching energy immunity, immunity to stunning, poison, sleep, critical hits, and sneak attacks, plus also possibly invisibility, flying, or earthglide.

So it might be a powerful defensive spec as well... but that would still be bad, because the specs are all so similar. Aside from the energy choice they'd be almost exactly the same. It'd be silly if there was no choice to have a more-offensive or defensive spec, and especially weird if all sorc18s are naturally immune to crits just because that's the only thing they can take.

It would seem the simple fix would be to allow sorcs and wizards to take some of each others' specialties (which is exactly what happens in D&D)




It's very hard to predict how those will work in DDO, because the D&D classes are all about intensifying the functions of the Energy Substitution feat, which isn't part of DDO and would be hard to add (both regarding the artwork and the game balance)

However, as they look to be all about the same thing applied to different favority energies, that appears a bit weak that sorcs only really get one specialty. However, maybe it was judged that sorcs overshadow wizards right now and don't need the extra help.


I hope that wizard needs more love should not be used as a rational for getting giving some Sorcerers (almost) nothing.




I wonder if they'll put putting this aspect of the savants in game....if so, I'm knocking over all mobs like the elementals have been doing to me all these years:

Elemental Transformation (Su): At 11th level, the elemental savant gains the ability to shapechange into a Large or smaller elemental of her chosen type (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day as a sorcerer of her class level. She also gains the elemental's supernatural special attacks and special qualities.
For every 3 additional levels gained above 11th, the savant can shapechange one additional time per day (twice at 14th, three times at 17th, and so on).
For every 5 additional levels gained above 11th, the elemental savant can take the form of an elemental of one size category greater (Huge at 16th, greater at 21st, and elder at 26th).
shapechange is a intresting feature.

[BlackRage]

Prestige En (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101010.jpg?t=1243551705)hancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Fighter: Purple Dragon Knight
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper
Rogue: Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Dragonmark Heir, Stalwart Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

How about filling out some more info on the unreleased ones? Could you also add the FvS PrEs as well please?

Thanks!

[Tharlak]

Just adding a Pretty Please!

A lot of build decisions to make, very difficult without understanding the PrE's all through Tier III.

[irivan]

Any one know when there will be a caster PRE preview, or when they will be available?

[sephiroth1084]

Any one know when there will be a caster PRE preview, or when they will be available?

PLEEEEEEASE!

Also, any word on whether dwarves will be getting Stalwart Defender or not?

[jboyd158]

Is Dwarven Defender either A: in game, or B: coming out soon?

[hydra_ex]

Is Dwarven Defender either A: in game, or B: coming out soon?

=Stalwart Defender, which is not available to Dwarves.

[Taojeff]

=Stalwart Defender, which is not available to Dwarves.

not available yet...

[Raiderone]

Prestige En (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101010.jpg?t=1243551705)hancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Dragonmark Heir, Stalwart Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

Can we get an update on the upcoming PrE's? Partial Quote below from another thread...


It usually takes me more than 4 minutes to write a post while I'm working on PrE's -

[Aspenor]

I'd like a summary of the arcane casting PrE's and the Monk PrE's, please, and thank you in advance. :)

[Chaosprism]

My guess is that the sorceror ones will be out first (savants) given the spell list now supports low level spells of those elemental shiftings.

Fire: Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Fire Trap, Flame Arrow, Fire Shield (hot), Delayed Blast Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Swarm
Ice: Niac's Cold Ray , Snowball Swarm, Frost lance, Ice Storm, Fire Shield (cold), Cone of Cold, Polar Ray
Acid: Acid Spray, Acid Arrow , Acid Blast, Acid Rain, Cloud Kill (part acid now), Acid Fog
Lightning: Shocking Grasp, Electric Loop, Lightning Bolt, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning


Burning blood does acid and fire damage... so maybe the portions of that spell are increased as well by a casters savant status.


Fire still gets the most options, cold is a close second now though.
Acid and lightning dont have super high level spells yet.

But we may see vitriolic sphere and/or Lightning field in the future.



I'd also like to see delayed blast fireball have a modal option to be castable as a "trap" as well. With a 5 second delay (or even a choice of 5 time options)

[Pwesiela]

I'd also like to see delayed blast fireball have a modal option to be castable as a "trap" as well. With a 5 second delay (or even a choice of 5 time options)

Um, DBF already has a "trap" option. You can cast a small sphere and you have about 5 seconds before it blows.

[Twerpp]

Anyone know if WF Juggernaut is gonna be limited to Barbarian only? And I got a feeling it wont be so popular if it make you immune to divine healing, unless its only for a limited time like Bladesworn.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Anyone know if WF Juggernaut is gonna be limited to Barbarian only? And I got a feeling it wont be so popular if it make you immune to divine healing, unless its only for a limited time like Bladesworn.

More like: If you are a WF barbarian choose between Frenzied Berserker, Ravager, Occult Slayer or Juggernaut.

[Visty]

Anyone know if WF Juggernaut is gonna be limited to Barbarian only? And I got a feeling it wont be so popular if it make you immune to divine healing, unless its only for a limited time like Bladesworn.

its limited to wfs only
it just counts as barb pre, means you cant take juggernaut and berskerer for example

[Twerpp]

its limited to wfs only
it just counts as barb pre, means you cant take juggernaut and berskerer for example

So a Kensai Juggernaut...

[BlackRage]

Can we get an update on the upcoming PrE's? Partial Quote below from another thread...


It usually takes me more than 4 minutes to write a post while I'm working on PrE's -


I'd like a summary of the arcane casting PrE's and the Monk PrE's, please, and thank you in advance. :)

Time to plug ANOTHER request for additional PrE previews... :rolleyes:

[Bladedge]

Time to plug ANOTHER request for additional PrE previews... :rolleyes:

I second this request

[irivan]

as 50 millionth request as well.

[Bunker]

Prestige En (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101010.jpg?t=1243551705)hancements planned over the next few modules are:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager
Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest
Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender
Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy
Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat
Sorcerer: Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant
Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage

Human: Dragonmark Heir
Dwarf: Dragonmark Heir, Stalwart Defender [Counts as Fighter]
Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Dragonmark Heir
Halfling: Dragonmark Heir
Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]
Devs,

When do you see the other PrEs being released?
When will the current unfinished ones be completed?

The project of PrEs is great thus far, but I along with many others would like to see a finished product for all classes. Any idea on when we shall see this finished?

[lamerolle]

Why not release more prestige?

Spellcaster need some prestige, like cleric need more gods, genéric gods.

[Chaosprism]

Well generic faiths isnt needed.. but definitely the other eberron faiths.


Also the sovereign host gods with all their different weapons (not just longsword) would be great.

Path of light
Path of inspiration
Keepers of the Past

Those 3 would be great to add. (no point adding evilish ones yet, though we do have vulkoor)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_of_Eberron

[Favis]

background:
Radiant Servants are particular good at two things -- healing and turning undead. They should seek to do those things as often as possible. In many fights, a radiant servant's prodigious healing ability is all that stands between his companions and death, while his ability to turn undead can annihilate foes before they decimate the party.
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070807).

Sugestion

Cleric Radiant Servant of The Sovereign Host I
Ministering to the needs of good folk everywhere and protect them from the rising tide of evil, You hold a particular hatred for undead and become a puissant healer.
This prestige enhancement makes you able to turn fire, ice, earth and air elementals. All you turningar are counted as greater turning. So that undeads/elementals that would flee in fear are destroyed instead. You also gain Healing Devotion I so all you spells cast in the Healing domain (cure spells) for one min act as been effected by the empower Spell feat but costing no extra spell points, consuming a use of your turn undead ability.
Cost: 4 action points

Cleric Radiant Servant of The Sovereign Host II
Ministering to the needs of good folk everywhere and protect them from the rising tide of evil, You hold a particular hatred for undead and continue your training as a puissant healer and a destoyer of evil. Cleric Divine Might works for dubble the time. You also gain Sacred Vengeance giving you 2d6 points extra damage on melee attacks against undead of the time of Divine Might. You also gain Divine Spell Power raising you spellpenetration with 4 for one min, consuming a use of your turn undead ability. You also gain Healing Devotion II so all you spells cast in the Healing domain (cure spells) for one min act as been effected by the maximize Spell feat but costing no extra spell points, consuming a use of your turn undead ability (This ability supersedes Divine Healing Metamagic I).
Cost: 2 action points


Cleric Radiant Servant of The Sovereign Host III
Ministering to the needs of good folk everywhere and protect them from the rising tide of evil, You hold a particular hatred for undead and continue your training as a puissant healer and a destoyer of evil.
This prestige enhancement gives you Superior Turning, that makes you turning beeing calculated in a new way. All the Undead in the area (no limit in number) get the save: Will save or destroyed. A successful Fortitude save make them cover in fear. The Save DC for this ability is "cleric level when attempting to turn undead" + Charisma Modifier. You gain Divine Vigor increasing you running speed with xx% for 1 min, consuming a use of your turn undead ability. Healing Devotion III (In addition to the effect of Healing Devotion II) All you spells cast in the Healing domain (cure or heal spells) for one min act as been effected by the Quicken spell feat but costing no extra spell points, consuming a use of your turn undead ability.
Cost: 2 action points







Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest

[Raiderone]

Not knowing the new PRE details makes it very hard to determine what to add when
it comes to Dragontouched Armor, Shroud items, TOD Sets & Ring Crafting and EPic Crafting.

I hope we get an answer SOON!!!!!!!

[Eradiator]

so whens juggernaut being released?

[Bladedge]

Almost a year and still no details on the remaining Prestige Enhancement.
Even a white board preview with developer speak will do just tell us something.

[Eradiator]

so whens it relesed?
and at what level do u guys get prestige classes?

[werk]

Prestige En (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101010.jpg?t=1243551705)hancements planned over the next few modules are:

Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

Status of Warforged Juggernaut? :D

[Cyr]

Makes note of more then a year in development for a host of PrE's.

[Angelus_dead]

Makes note of more then a year in development for a host of PrE's.
Oh no, its only been 11 months since this thread was posted. You're early.

[Pyromaniac]

Are we there yet for caster prestige details?

[Individual]

Are we there yet for caster prestige details?

You didn't get the memo? It said, "Don't hold your breath".

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Are we there yet?

Almost there (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/179) :D

[Bunker]

With the addition of TR, this is a great time to release the other PrEs. Also finish up ones for Bard, Ranger, Rogue, ect.......

Yes, yes, I along with everyone else is fully aware that we can TR multiple times. However, if we were to only TR once, it would be nice to see some finish product to help make key choices in our quest for the perfect (in my case worst :p ) character build.

Hey you, OP, the guy who started the thread, what's the good word?

[leowen]

Seriously, Elemental Savant for a Sorc PrC? By the book, you can't even get into that until 13 due to cross class skills. Talk about being pigeonholed into nuking.

What about all the other prcs?

Wild Mage (Complete Arcane)
Shadow Adept (Faerun)
Dreamer (Ultimate PrC vol.1)
Mind Bender (Complete Arcane)
Arcane Delver (Ultimate PrC vol.1)
Wayfarer Guide (Complete Arcane)
Nightmare Spinner (Complete Mage)
Prenumbral Lord (Ultimate PrC vol.1)
Arcane Avatar (Ultimate PrC vol.1)
Loremaster (DMG)
Fatespinner (Complete Arcane)
Pale Master (Complete Arcane)
Arcane Devotee (Faerun)
Keeper of Songs (Ultimate PrC vol.1)

Seriously...these are just a few off the top of my head.

Elemental Savant? Really?

[Pyromaniac]

Elemental Savant? Really?

Well I can't say I'm thrilled with being forced into nuking, though elemental substitution would have to be included to have it make any sense why its taken a long time to implement.

That being said, we have no caster prestige classes atm, so anything is better than nothing.

[leowen]

Well I can't say I'm thrilled with being forced into nuking, though elemental substitution would have to be included to have it make any sense why its taken a long time to implement.

That being said, we have no caster prestige classes atm, so anything is better than nothing.

In my opinion, the reverse is more likely true. I'm pretty sure the presitge will just be a boost to those types of damage/crits. I doubt they'll do substitution. There's alot more interesting things that could be done, savant, imho, is a cop out, when wizzys are getting palemaster/arch...etc.

I can see it now, required for fire savant, linage of fire, deadly fire, etc, temporary clicky boost to fire dmg, as the potions you can buy...

[Jiipster]

Actually, from what I've read the Savants are supposed to get spell-like abilities; clickies of spells that can be cast without using any SP, limited only by cooldowns (like the Flavored Sole capstones).

[Chaosprism]

Pigeonholed is exactly what prestige is about, it's about sub-specializing. If you dont like that choice then dont pick it.

And if you wanted to be school focused then go play a wizard, thats what they're known for. Not that ddo has any enhancements based on caster school yet, but that will come in time.

Sorcerors right from the very beginning were thought to be dragonblooded , so having a leaning towards the element of their draconic heritage is completely reasonable.

[Riorik]

Wow, when I saw this thread resurrected, it really brought home that we really did have this information a year ago and it's still not all in. I realize a lot of stuff was going on in the background including the "fussing" between Turbine & Atari...but wow.

Hopefully we'll soon get a "this stuff will be in new update #2" soon.

[Bunker]

Are we to see any new PrEs released with update 2?

[Jiipster]

Are we to see any new PrEs released with update 2?


When last I heard, Pale Master and the rest of Arcane Archer were slated for the next update.

Originally posted here. (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2602691&postcount=22)

[Eladrin]

Pale Master / Arcane Archer will be in Update 3.

Update 2 is primarily content.

[Jiipster]

Boo.