U33.2 aggro mechanic

[Taimasan]

If people are saying that 1 ranger pulls 1 mob.

The entire pack comes.

Takes a long time for people to pick up that pack without a intimidate.

Seems like to me like they are trying to tweak the aggro management(see dumb down of hate table) and bring in more in line of a hate check every 2-3 seconds rather than the "real time" hate table calculations we used to have.

What i'm guessing is that someone made a change not only in mob detection but also on the hate tables in the effort to implement a simple fix to improve lag. And let it ride for 2 weeks to see how it turns out, I have not played since this change but it does not seem like it is going well for people in certain dungeons.

I work in Design at a ISP, and just seeing the culture of design I would bet a wet dub everyone is off except 1 guy(Im that guy) just to make sure things don't explode because that is all I have time for is to keep fresh rolls of duct tape on tap. And the people who need to be on deck who can authorize the correct changes will not be back into the office until the 3rd of 2017 on the earliest.

[Ebforest60]

I am almost exclusively a solo player these days and I favor rogue characters of all types. I haven't played an assassin since the change (on a stick build at the moment.) Mostly I like the changes as it has caused me to rethink the game I've been playing for quite some time.

However, the Framework quest might be broken as I stealth all the way to end fight and then BAM! RED ALERT once boss activated. Oh and Reclamation where you fall from top to bottom, I pulled I think every mob along the spiral upward down to the bottom...I was on my Caster Arty so able to AoE my butt off but then it was empty of mobs except for the rooms. I'm sure there are other quests that need to be considered as well. This is a change to the game that impacts all quests and as such the Devs should really look at unintended consequences since many of those quests were built with the old mechanics in mind (stealth Claw of Vulkoor is probably out these days even though it is a specific path built FOR that quest.)

I hope they are able to adjust specific quests to compensate without rolling everything back.

[nokowi]

I was making the more general point that I can't provide any sort of alibi about how well Qhualor understood the playstyle. But yes, conditions are not the same now as they were earlier on.

We could dissect what "running around like a fighter with an eSoS" on an assassin means, but it is pointless because it's the second sentence that matters.

I agree with this for experienced players on strong characters, but people who are newish to the class, not all geared out or maybe missing extra survivability from past lives may find they do better a step or two behind the front runner instead.

Thanks.

Having more risk/reward at the front of the party does mean it may not be appropriate for some new or casual players.

New/casual players may not even notice agro issues in groups if they always run into the room last.

It is solo players who have a game that is broken enough to be called unplayable.

[nokowi]

I remember it like it was yesterday. we were running EGH and you were commenting on my build about how I must have really nasty SA damage using an ESOS. oh well, I was attempting to provide verification that I did play a rogue during U22, unlike someone else who was trying to tell me I didn't and being dismissive because I don't play one today. It's very easy to remember for me because the very next update was U23 with Armor Up! and how that changed a lot for DDO. U22 and U23 has been the basis to a lot of my arguments that has led DDO to where it is today.

the other day I was in a group with an Assassin and he obviously knew what he was doing because he stayed at the front. him and I were going toe to toe with kills and kill steals. no gripe, just annoying challenging. he would get the first kill, back off while I hit the mobs than after the cooldown was up he would jump in again which often times was the last hit.

the agro system is completely bonkers, but to be fair, it has been for a long time now. its now worse that unfortunately affects particular builds and soloists even more than others. yeah Shiv is awesome soloing, but I wonder if it still spins mobs to you while using it in a group. the last build I played that used this enhancement would steal agro from other players if the mobs back was to me. it was an easy way to stop mobs chasing kiters.

Please go read the release notes or at least read the forums.

DECEPTION no longer causes mobs to spin around.

That was never shiv.

How can you not know this?

Do you even know the current issue with shiv?


And no, assassins can not effectively kill stuff at the front of the group. Your friend would have to wait until you run into the room, which would cause mobs to run at you and make it painfully annoying to assassinate them while moving slowly in stealth.


Your own words earlier were that you played assassin rogue in U23, and that this justified your understanding of current issues (epic fail since agro worked great in U23). Now you are changing your words (which revealed a lack of understanding regardless of when you actually started), just like your "I see assassins in groups" showed a lack of understanding, just like shiv causing mobs to turnaround, just like ...

Literally every post you make with specifics reveals misunderstanding on your part.

[Aelonwy]

I am almost exclusively a solo player these days and I favor rogue characters of all types. I haven't played an assassin since the change (on a stick build at the moment.) Mostly I like the changes as it has caused me to rethink the game I've been playing for quite some time.

However, the Framework quest might be broken as I stealth all the way to end fight and then BAM! RED ALERT once boss activated. Oh and Reclamation where you fall from top to bottom, I pulled I think every mob along the spiral upward down to the bottom...I was on my Caster Arty so able to AoE my butt off but then it was empty of mobs except for the rooms. I'm sure there are other quests that need to be considered as well. This is a change to the game that impacts all quests and as such the Devs should really look at unintended consequences since many of those quests were built with the old mechanics in mind (stealth Claw of Vulkoor is probably out these days even though it is a specific path built FOR that quest.)

I hope they are able to adjust specific quests to compensate without rolling everything back.

I duo with my hubby mostly, or sometimes run quests with my son. I've been trying to stay on one of my 3 ranged builds since the aggro change to see how much is messed up. But I've only been running heroic content so far. I no longer have an assassin build; haven't since sept I think, so no way to test that without doing an undesired TR (on my main server anyway).

Because I cannot test assassin solo play for myself I do not feel I have any right to comment on the game experience of that playstyle.

However, I have seen a handful of dungeons so far - old dungeons mind you, before the 10+ mobs around every corner design - that a single ranged attack has caused instant Red Alert despite every previous mob encountered already being slain. Reclamation was one of those quests for me also, as well as Raid the Vulkorim, a little alert trouble in Water Works 2nd quest but the mobs died so fast that it wasn't much of an issue. I will keep posting each quest with which the aggro change seems to cause problems. I do not know if they have the man power to selectively alter each quest with issues but it seems to me that maybe changing the way mobs alert each either might help - either a smaller radius "call for help" or line of sight or anything that does not chain-tag mob group after mob group together especially through walls/floors/ceilings etc.

Addendum: I am playing these quests at level on a mix of hard and elite depending on what life the character is on and can open.

[alancarp]

If somebody is actually still counting votes, then please put me down for one of the following actions (in order of preference):
1. Fixing the new aggro mechanic to limit the scope of 'alertness' to individual mobs groups, not everybody in shouting distance.
2. Reverting to the method pre-U33.2.

I am not in favor of the new status quo... U33.2 makes me not want to even run many of my toons now, notably the ranger and cleric... so doing nothing is not an option, AFAIC.

edit: oopsed on update#

(Re: the signature... today is it Standing Snow Elemental Games in Boston?)

[Saekee]

If somebody is actually still counting votes, then please put me down for one of the following actions (in order of preference):
1. Fixing the new aggro mechanic to limit the scope of 'alertness' to individual mobs groups, not everybody in shouting distance.
2. Reverting to the method pre-U32.2.

I am not in favor of the new status quo... U32.2 makes me not want to even run many of my toons now, notably the ranger and cleric... so doing nothing is not an option, AFAIC.

(Re: the signature... today is it Standing Snow Elemental Games in Boston?)

I vote 2.

They need to playtest such a radical
game change first, not dump
it on us and cause a debate with a false equivalency between this mess and before. This is a mess; revert, fix aggro also in such a way so as to allow stealth playstyles, and THEN implement. And do it on a Monday morning...
In terms of the 'realism' of aggroing multiple mobs--no, the quests are poorly designed often with huge numbers just standing around. Put in guards with gongs like in some lower level quests and have some mobs sleeping, eating, ****ing, chatting, chanting, etc.--better immersion anyway. See Siegebreaker as an excellent quest design.

[FranOhmsford]

Your own words earlier were that you played assassin rogue in U23,

No those weren't his words.

I remember specifically Qhualor doing rogue past lives right before Armor Up! which was U23.

BEFORE U23

Not IN U23!

Before U23 would be U22!

[Qhualor]

No those weren't his words.




BEFORE U23

Not IN U23!

Before U23 would be U22!

to clarify, U22 and U23 specifically for Qhualor. I did do rogue past lives on 2 other characters right after that.

[Tranquillitas]

So yeah... it would have been nice to know about these changes before I TR'd and decided to try a Zen archer monk.

It has been slow going through the first half. DA red alerts really are annoying after the first arrow flies. Almost not worth it.

Sad that i am looking forward to 20 to TR out of it. It sounded like a fun class and style to play.

[thedip]

In my view there will not be a roll back as the changes are WAI. Personally I think that the game will be balanced around Reaper mode, hence the changes to bluff and ranged attacks as these would trivialize Reaper. The consequence of this is that stealth mode in the "normal" difficulty has been dealt a massive blow which makes it less fun for people, like me, who like to play in this way.

You couldn't have a Reaper mode where it was possible (without the chance of failure) to pull mobs one at a time; you wouldn't want a Reaper mode where characters could rush to the end boss fight and avoid the trash. Myself, I think that this is wrong, as it is possible that it will harm the rest of the game and players who are not in the 5% (number pulled out of some orifice) who will be running Reaper mode.

I will now go and hide in a darkened corner, as I have seen what happens when someone gives an opinion that some disagree with.

[alancarp]

I will now go and hide in a darkened corner, as I have seen what happens when someone gives an opinion that some disagree with.

Actually you can't hide anywhere anymore, and that's a big part of the problem.

While I seriously doubt that reaper difficulty would be trivialized even under the older mob response method, your main point suggests a possible solution to me: Scale It.

> Normal Quest mode: pre-33.2 aggro mechanic
> Hard Quest mode: Somewhat enlarged mob responsiveness.
> Elite Quest mode: U33.2 aggro mechanic
> Reaper mode: U33.2 plus leave your last will and testament with the attendant at the quest entrance. More mobs, stronger enemies.

[nokowi]

In my view there will not be a roll back as the changes are WAI. Personally I think that the game will be balanced around Reaper mode, hence the changes to bluff and ranged attacks as these would trivialize Reaper. The consequence of this is that stealth mode in the "normal" difficulty has been dealt a massive blow which makes it less fun for people, like me, who like to play in this way.

You couldn't have a Reaper mode where it was possible (without the chance of failure) to pull mobs one at a time; you wouldn't want a Reaper mode where characters could rush to the end boss fight and avoid the trash. Myself, I think that this is wrong, as it is possible that it will harm the rest of the game and players who are not in the 5% (number pulled out of some orifice) who will be running Reaper mode.

I will now go and hide in a darkened corner, as I have seen what happens when someone gives an opinion that some disagree with.

All they really did is ensure that non-reaper plays more like reaper, where you only attack mobs that have agro on someone else.

This was going to happen in reaper any way because damage spikes get too big.

If you read through enough posts, you will see that advanced assassins find never leaving stealth as a boring play style.

REAPER = BORING (assassinate, pike for 12 seconds, assassinate ...)


The bluff changes won't affect reaper, but they impact non-reaper.

Pulling mobs 1 at a time in a group is simply an inferior tactic when the group can get through content any other way, and it can still be done with max bluff skills (what someone in reaper would have).




All this mess doesn't make reaper any better or more difficult for assassin rogues, it simply made life worse for those in non-reaper.

[nokowi]

Actually you can't hide anywhere anymore, and that's a big part of the problem.

While I seriously doubt that reaper difficulty would be trivialized even under the older mob response method, your main point suggests a possible solution to me: Scale It.

> Normal Quest mode: pre-33.2 aggro mechanic
> Hard Quest mode: Somewhat enlarged mob responsiveness.
> Elite Quest mode: U33.2 aggro mechanic
> Reaper mode: U33.2 plus leave your last will and testament with the attendant at the quest entrance. More mobs, stronger enemies.

I doubt their code is set up to do this.

This would require them to maintain essentially two different games (2x as much work) as reaper and non reaper differ over time.

The only thing that likely makes design sense is to have reaper at lvl 30, where different priorities can be separated.

[akwillowbear]

I'm about ready to start looking for something else and take all my vip accounts with me. This game is all but unplayable now.

[Hazelnut]

I'm about ready to start looking for something else and take all my vip accounts with me. This game is all but unplayable now.

All? Why do you have more than one? Are you referring to other family members?

Unplayable? Really? I don't like the way they changed the aggro mechanic. It makes my stealth builds and ranged builds (by far my favourite) hard to play solo but I wouldn't call it unplayable. It is much less enjoyable for the play style I prefer. I do think they need to do something to keep these play styles viable but it's not unplayable for me.

[Raederle]

your main point suggests a possible solution to me: Scale It.

> Normal Quest mode: pre-33.2 aggro mechanic
> Hard Quest mode: Somewhat enlarged mob responsiveness.
> Elite Quest mode: U33.2 aggro mechanic
> Reaper mode: U33.2 plus leave your last will and testament with the attendant at the quest entrance. More mobs, stronger enemies.

Speaking as a programmer that would be a nightmare to maintain, and is not going to happen.

Personally? @Torc

0) Keep the pack aggro mechanic but continue tweaks to make assassins/stealth playable again.

1) Scale back bluff slightly until the highest levels, and give it a forgiveness range like disable traps. Young rogues do not need perfect disable, open, hide, move silently just to function so why bluff?

2) Fix shiv/bluff/deception to allow sneak attack damage on red names. We can live with the no turning bit, but cutting out half a solo rogue's boss dps is just wrong. Likewise a high sneak ranger. If you need to tone down rogue packs, make it so if YOUR shiv/bluff/deception isn't on the boss, no SA damage. That would presume that they stick separately. There's no effort to tone down warlock packs so why beat up rogues?

3) Fix traps, our tried and true method of splitting groups up was web and hypnosis and some damage off the top, all broken now, even with hella good disable.

4) Fix single/double assassinate so that it is spot based, not listen based. If they can see their friend die, HUNT KILL MODE. But if they all have their backs turned, and continue to do so for a few seconds, it's stealthy and non aggro. If on an attempt for a double kill one fails, HUNT KILL MODE. That might or might not fix double assassinate, currently broken at least in epic content. That too should be fixed, now that the aggro mechanism means I only get one chance on the ubiquitous pack of 10 anyway.

5) ======>>> Eliminate the FINGER OF GOD. I'm OK with an alerted pack who saw their friend get hurt roaming around looking for me with elevated spot/listen levels. I am not OK with them spotting my 72 hide/move silent in a level 20 epic hard (CR30 odd) FROM THREE ROOMS and TWO WALLS AWAY, again and again and again every 10 seconds like clockwork. Why the heck did I invest in maxxed skill, maxxed gear, and destiny twist slots for this?

Last - If I can catch one of the pack now racing around the halls alone, sneak up behind him, and stabbity, why oh why should he be immune to assassinate then? He's busy racing down to where his buddy two rooms away is shouting OVER HERE because 8 seconds ago I was there and the FINGER OF GOD told all his friends so.

Put all this together and playing an assassin rogue will be harder than pre U33.2 but still playable. Ignore this and I'll do some of the other toons for a while, but the one advantage DDO has over all the other MMO's out there, a real stealth game, is gone.

[nokowi]

All? Why do you have more than one? Are you referring to other family members?

Unplayable? Really? I don't like the way they changed the aggro mechanic. It makes my stealth builds and ranged builds (by far my favourite) hard to play solo but I wouldn't call it unplayable. It is much less enjoyable for the play style I prefer. I do think they need to do something to keep these play styles viable but it's not unplayable for me.

If people play differently builds both could easily be correct.

People on the forums seem to think that their experience, with their builds, is the same experience as everyone else, with different preferences and/or different builds.

If you can't see the list of bugs and/or changes and see what it does to assassin, then you probably won't be able to grasp the impact on other players.

[nokowi]

Speaking as a programmer that would be a nightmare to maintain, and is not going to happen.

Personally? @Torc

0) Keep the pack aggro mechanic but continue tweaks to make assassins/stealth playable again.

1) Scale back bluff slightly until the highest levels, and give it a forgiveness range like disable traps. Young rogues do not need perfect disable, open, hide, move silently just to function so why bluff?

2) Fix shiv/bluff/deception to allow sneak attack damage on red names. We can live with the no turning bit, but cutting out half a solo rogue's boss dps is just wrong. Likewise a high sneak ranger. If you need to tone down rogue packs, make it so if YOUR shiv/bluff/deception isn't on the boss, no SA damage. That would presume that they stick separately. There's no effort to tone down warlock packs so why beat up rogues?

3) Fix traps, our tried and true method of splitting groups up was web and hypnosis and some damage off the top, all broken now, even with hella good disable.

4) Fix single/double assassinate so that it is spot based, not listen based. If they can see their friend die, HUNT KILL MODE. But if they all have their backs turned, and continue to do so for a few seconds, it's stealthy and non aggro. If on an attempt for a double kill one fails, HUNT KILL MODE. That might or might not fix double assassinate, currently broken at least in epic content. That too should be fixed, now that the aggro mechanism means I only get one chance on the ubiquitous pack of 10 anyway.

5) ======>>> Eliminate the FINGER OF GOD. I'm OK with an alerted pack who saw their friend get hurt roaming around looking for me with elevated spot/listen levels. I am not OK with them spotting my 72 hide/move silent in a level 20 epic hard (CR30 odd) FROM THREE ROOMS and TWO WALLS AWAY, again and again and again every 10 seconds like clockwork. Why the heck did I invest in maxxed skill, maxxed gear, and destiny twist slots for this?

Last - If I can catch one of the pack now racing around the halls alone, sneak up behind him, and stabbity, why oh why should he be immune to assassinate then? He's busy racing down to where his buddy two rooms away is shouting OVER HERE because 8 seconds ago I was there and the FINGER OF GOD told all his friends so.

Put all this together and playing an assassin rogue will be harder than pre U33.2 but still playable. Ignore this and I'll do some of the other toons for a while, but the one advantage DDO has over all the other MMO's out there, a real stealth game, is gone.

U23 had the vast majority of these things.

[blerkington]

Deception and the similar effect from Shadow Mastery in the SD destiny actually are working on red named enemies. Tested just now on Gardak Bruntsmash at the start of EE Cabal. Despite being solo, I had sneak attack damage on him near continuously every time I fought him.

As others have pointed out, not being able to get double assassinations while solo could also be solved by adding a one or two second delay to aggro occurring after monsters notice the first kill.

Bluff requirements seem far too high compared to other skill checks. Would be very interesting to hear what the formula is and why someone thought it was a good idea to introduce such unreasonably high requirements compared to the other rogue skill checks in EE quests.

Telepathic location of an enemy that the monsters can't see or hear is just nonsense and has to go. There's no point in having skill checks and mechanisms like facing, line of sight and maximum radius for spot/listen if the monsters can just know where their enemy is.

But if common sense, realism and respect for the stealthy playstyle aren't reasons enough to fix telepathic monsters, whoever's looking after AI at SSG should know it's now become very easy to manipulate whole packs of monsters to move at once to a desired location without being spotted.

So if you were worried about players exploiting the AI, you should know you by trying to close off one problem you've added another, possibly worse one.

Thanks.