Reaper was a terrible mistake

[EinarMal]

If it were up to me I would change a few things. I am not a fan of the "ghost and goblins" style scaling of basically trying to make difficult by mostly scaling up damage and getting 1-2 hits kill a lot of players.

I would make it more like hardcore, above R6, you die you get kicked to your bind point and the party goes on without you. I actually think that would be much more challenging. I would also though change a few things with reaper.

1. Tune down mob damage
2. Get rid of the bonus hit points so it is easier to balance across reaper points
3. R6+ you die you are out of the quest
4. Get rid of self healing penalty
5. Increase minimum CC duration to 12s, to allow for more strategy and things like Earthquake/Otto Ball to be relevant in R10.

[ahpook]

If it were up to me I would change a few things. ...

3. R6+ you die you are out of the quest

I like this idea but considering how they don't want to break up parties i doubt that they would consider it.

I would tweak the suggestion with: In reaper, No rez shrines and reverse the Death penalty. No raise/resurrection/(jibbers?) after (20 - 2*skull) seconds. (ie: Give a team a small window to res a player that is ever smaller on higher R). No more than (3 - Skull/4) rez's per character. If the team can get completion you can still get some XP which is less punishing for those characters that die at the end fight.

[Eantarus]

I would just remove the ability of mobs in reaper to 1-shot players. Getting 1-shotted isn't fun. There's no strategy for playing around 10,000 points of unblock-able damage. I like the notion of a difficulty mode; I find the RNG nature of it not to be difficult. Just stupid.

[Caver]

The problem isn't Reaper mode. The problem is the complexity of the game. DDO has become so crazy complex with so many systems and mechanics that nobody can really explain how it works. There have been mechanics added on top of mechanics until the game is so arcane that only people who basically play for a living can figure it out. Some stuff works, some stuff doesn't, some stuff conflicts with other stuff, this stacks with this but not with that and the only way to figure it out is through hours and hours of trial and error. Or you can just do what everybody really does and copy the people like Strim who play 80 hours a week and if they're brave making minor changes around the margins in hopes they discover a new way to game a system they don't understand. How can you hope to get more than a 1 in a 1000 new player to stick around.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

OP right.

Without new players, game will die.

Past lives without a catch-up mechanism are the same problem as reaper though. OP doesn't want to address that obviously. (Other big can of worms.)

Game should be challenging for everyone, this is why grinding for power is bad in every game.

Playing ddo for the grind is how SSG makes money though.

The game is 100% screwed without some massive shenanigans, and let's be real... ...reaper mode is already massive shenanigans.

[wolfdy]

I post it in another thread but i think its pertinent to comment here aswel

If i could chose i would add a "0 skulls" mode, no debuffs AT ALL, you get tankier mobs/champions and actualy get reapers, you gain NO RXP and you can re-enter freely like heroic,just for the players like me that just want the extra exp reaper has without having to grind a ton of points on r4/r10s on endgame (cuz we dont like endgame)

[Wizard1406]

OP right.

Without new players, game will die.

Past lives without a catch-up mechanism are the same problem as reaper though. OP doesn't want to address that obviously. (Other big can of worms.)

Yep, new players are so far behind it isn't funny anymore. DDO does not respect the 80-20 rule. I.e. 80% of result achievable in 20% of the time, in MMOs that means catchup mechanics.

Depending on your playtime and the spec you prefer playing, it could mean months of having to be carried (or soloing low difficulties since probably nobody will join).
Before you can properly contribute in the difficulties that get played. Often r6+ at endgame and even low/mid reaper can be tough with low gear/RP/PL, depending on quest , level and spec.

[balvix]

Yep, new players are so far behind it isn't funny anymore. DDO does not respect the 80-20 rule. I.e. 80% of result achievable in 20% of the time, in MMOs that means catchup mechanics.

Depending on your playtime and the spec you prefer playing, it could mean months of having to be carried (or soloing low difficulties since probably nobody will join).
Before you can properly contribute in the difficulties that get played. Often r6+ at endgame and even low/mid reaper can be tough with low gear/RP/PL, depending on quest , level and spec.

I dont understand how people think reaper is such a difficult thing to overcome for new players. On the hardcore server, I run a little reaper before I hit lvl 20, and a little bit after, but once I get to around lvl 28-29 or so, I start running R4. I usually have around 2-3 reaper points by this time. It really isnt that difficult to gain points. I played every other few days and was easily able to make my 20 points a while ago. Thats 20 points on a first life toon with only the 1 earned tome from favor, and a +3 str tome I got on a daily roll. Please everyone stop pretending that new players are so far behind that there is no way for them to catch up. If they have issues with the grind then they have never really played an mmo before. The biggest difficulty in ddo is the devs constant push to wash out roles. Without roles nobody groups, there is almost no point. If you can heal/cast/melee/trap/range reliably on any toon then why bother waiting for a trapper, or a healer, or dps for that matter. I once asked why they were making changes to ranger that were unnecessary, and the response I got was that they wanted to make it better for off class people to use a bow effectively, the fvs class was the one mentioned. This is the main issue. It causes groups to be unneeded so there is no real tr train type of groups that can show new people the ropes and explain anything to them. Stuff like how to advance deleras or weather same stat types of items stack, or that there is such things as pots to use in quests for removing disease or curses are things that a new player doesnt just instantly know, and if nobody tells them or shows them then its an unpleasant experience generally.

[Wizard1406]

Hardcore is different , everyone is on a new character.

On live, the power difference is HUGE. Sure a newbie can join r4 at cap, but will they contribute a lot? Only if everyone else is new too or below lvl 29 (or on specs they are not good at and not well geared).
Otherwise all the other party member will kill everything too fast for them to contribute much. And the newbie will probably also get oneshot / twoshot a couple of times (spells like polar ray, disintegrate, horrid wilting; archers, mob cleaves etc.). It's not that fun to be the weakest link in almost every party you join.

And on r6+ or r1+ raids (even hard for the tougher raids), newbies die a lot and contribute even less.

But a newbie can be useful for the party as a bard buffer or occasionally as a buffer/healer (if the party needs healing beyond the occasionally offheals and ED abilities). Playing those at cap in r6+ is the best way to catch up on RP, but not everyone is into support chars. So if you don't farm RP at cap, you will be way behind for a long time.

[Annex]

Five months later and I still have not cracked the reaper nut but I continue to try.

[noinfo]

Hardcore is different , everyone is on a new character.

On live, the power difference is HUGE. Sure a newbie can join r4 at cap, but will they contribute a lot? Only if everyone else is new too or below lvl 29 (or on specs they are not good at and not well geared).
Otherwise all the other party member will kill everything too fast for them to contribute much. And the newbie will probably also get oneshot / twoshot a couple of times (spells like polar ray, disintegrate, horrid wilting; archers, mob cleaves etc.). It's not that fun to be the weakest link in almost every party you join.

And on r6+ or r1+ raids (even hard for the tougher raids), newbies die a lot and contribute even less.

But a newbie can be useful for the party as a bard buffer or occasionally as a buffer/healer (if the party needs healing beyond the occasionally offheals and ED abilities). Playing those at cap in r6+ is the best way to catch up on RP, but not everyone is into support chars. So if you don't farm RP at cap, you will be way behind for a long time.

About the only thing the new player can't do is melee. If they actually focus on gearing (on elites etc) and let people know they are new, they will have caught up in RP much faster than they will in past lives.

[noinfo]

Five months later and I still have not cracked the reaper nut but I continue to try.

What server?

[Oxarhamar]

Five months later and I still have not cracked the reaper nut but I continue to try.

Start with R1 in harbor till you get used to that

Big rxp is in legendary but harbor is a good place to start

[Wizard1406]

About the only thing the new player can't do is melee. If they actually focus on gearing (on elites etc) and let people know they are new, they will have caught up in RP much faster than they will in past lives.

Yep indeed, melee with low reaper/gear/PL was absolutely miserable. Barely can attack because you die all the time.

Low RP caster wasn't all fun either (far too low HP/MRR/PRR/Saves to survive big spells & archers/teleporting/stealthing mobs before other party member aggro them), but it got better.

I'm mostly caught up in RP now, but pastlives take forever and a day. (especially non-iconic). I have some important ones for casters and survivability, except completionist, which is now a granted free feat. And of course racials, which is an extreme grind.

The best way of getting better in r6+ (and r1+ raids) after getting 1x class completionist and having so many RP that each is pretty much only +4 hp (worse than a pastlive) will be maximizing sentient xp, filigrees and gear (raid items, upgrading to better mythic or even reaper items etc).

[Panserbjorne]

I really agree with both viewpoints, and there seems to be two camps.

Those that think the vets commitment to the game was important enough to warrant sweeping changes to difficulty. Reaper mode was created because. . .It was.
Full stop. I am not arguing the scope of these changes, whether they were big or little changes, and what the effects were because. . .to me.
That is all, irrelevant.

Passionate gamers have real benefits for DDO's future, and veteran players continue to feed-in to a loop that is a key factor in maintaining a healthy player base.
Not just money either, commitment is equal to engagement. Passionate developers and dedicated players have really made DDO, the game it is today. It's a game
that is steeped in "essential" engagement. Many layered systems, that allow you to engage with the content that you want, and grow your characters' power level.
A major boost to character power can be attributed to how many of these layered systems, you choose to engage in. Reaper, as a system, was designed to provide
challenge. Power creep is going to happen, and players need to be challenged. I won't disagree with that. Developers have been incredible in balancing systems,
thus far.

The other camp believes that Reaper is hindering new player growth, chasing away potential new players with a steep curve and perhaps short-sighted plan, as far
as long-term growth is concerned. There are many valid arguments that stem from this belief. I won't disagree with that. I don't agree, that Reaper mode was a
mistake though. The implementation wasn't catastrophic, just kinda clunky and (perhaps) rushed. Maybe the implementation was just hurried as SSG worked to
raise the level cap and add content for legendary characters. (Perhaps it was a matter of crunch, or more important, maybe it was to avoid it!) I would argue
that it easily could be improved though. Reaper mode could be re-designed with new players in mind, and I don't think anyone would argue, that it just wasn't.
The most important part, is to make the system easier to understand and engage with. With Reaper mode having several different levels of difficulty, to even explain the concept to newer players, would be difficult.

Although, there is agreement that changing only minor details would not cater to new players in any significant way. Often the argument is, that the mounting
challenge to new players, is intended to be part of the loop. All these arguments seem to be a matter-of-degree though. Weighing how much would have to change,
with what would be gained. The options seem very limited, because the system is all-or-nothing. It is either "on", or, it isn't!

Imagine Reaper-mode, with some adjustments to the Reapers' stat blocks that would enable Reaper mode to be functionally different than other difficulty modes.
I noticed that Reaper was referred to as a "mode", in this thread, rather than a difficulty level. When really, people are selecting it, as a difficulty! The consensus
seems to be that, it is not a difficulty level, as much as it is a replacement for the mobs within a quest to receive an intended benefit. It really functions, more as
an optional reward, that you must decide, before entering the quest. Reaper mode, could be much improved when you view the mode, in this context. A selection
that allows for optional rewards by replacing mobs, as they spawn, with powerful variants. Essentially, my suggestion takes the form of a "Zero-Skulls" option,
that Wolfdy mentioned. There are many ways, a "zero-skulls" system could be implemented, but I think a rather clever and easy way, would be to represent
the passage to the Plane of Dolurrh (or the Gray Wastes) as a process, that is not immediate, on quest entry, but slowly becoming co-terminous with the plane.

That could be represented, with a stance toggle. The progression to 10 skulls could be gradual! This would allow people to engage with the system, on their own terms. A mode akin to the how the tier-5 Scourge toggle works, if you keep it engaged too long, you WILL die. In Reaper difficulty, once you drop off, "Skull mode" you cannot re-engage the toggle though, for the rest of the quest. That way, it has some similarity to Hardcore mode, but without the permadeath. More like, a last man standing situation, as people drop out of "reaper stance".

[kpak01]

Simple fact was, game was too easy pre-Reaper. There was a time, a very long time ago, when running Normal was normal, running Hard was hard, and the elite ran Elite, but that time was already long gone. For more experienced players and better built/geared characters, everything was a faceroll even on Elite. Too many stacking PL bonuses, too much gear powercreep, and too much enhancement powercreep had made it too easy.

They could have actually re-balanced things, but they took the quick-and-dirty solution of tacking on a new difficulty instead for challenge.

But then, despite it's supposed role as a challenge difficulty, and it's unique built-in rewards of Reaper XP, Reaper items, Reaper cosmetics, they made the massive mistake of also giving it more basic XP then Elite, so even people who didn't want any challenge and just want to faceroll super-easy stuff as fast as possible felt obligated to, entitled to be able to, do that in Reaper. Which is why even now, most people just trying level as fast as possible with no interest in stretching themselves run R1 by default.

[Malveaux]

R1 is such a faceroll now a days. For me I only level up running R4. Even that isnt slowing quest completion time. For me I can also classify that as a faceroll. The whole thing has become some what boring. The devs need to come up with something more challenging.

[Tyrande]

R1 is such a faceroll now a days. For me I only level up running R4. Even that isnt slowing quest completion time. For me I can also classify that as a faceroll. The whole thing has become some what boring. The devs need to come up with something more challenging.

Oh-o. Where/when did I hear that before? EE being too easy and reaper mode was created out of necessity.

Now R1-R4 is too easy. Some people even finding R10 easy. Now what?

I would say the buck stops here. Remove reaper mode. Remove extra hit points from reaper trees. Replace it with hard core mode. If your character dies, it is removed from the quest. If your character dies more than 3 times on that same game day, it is removed from playing (need resting in an inn for recuperating) on that game day on any quest or raid. Existing players with reaper points is rewarded with 1 astral shard per reaper point obtained in the past per character. Reaper crafting we can keep, but reaper items are dropped from hard core mode, also, no 50 RP requirement to craft a reaper item.

Remove reaper trees. Adjust monsters to accommodate. Cosmetic reaper wings we can keep. But its unobtainable in the future.

Reaper monster can still exist, but it is rare. By the D&D rules, reaper is invisible to the naked eye, and only appears when the character is close to death.

Caveat: this hard core mode favors tanks and self healing tanks and players with a lot of alts to play.

Double Caveat: Jibber's Blade, Resurrection, True Resurrection and Beckon Divinity is now less useful, and healing mid-battle is getting more important.

[Mamalian]

Oh-o. Where/when did I hear that before? EE being too easy and reaper mode was created out of necessity.

Now R1-R4 is too easy. Some people even finding R10 easy. Now what?

I would say the buck stops here. Remove reaper mode. Remove extra hit points from reaper trees. Replace it with hard core mode. If your character dies, it is removed from the quest. If your character dies more than 3 times on that same game day, it is removed from playing (need resting in an inn for recuperating) on that game day on any quest or raid. Existing players with reaper points is rewarded with 1 astral shard per reaper point obtained in the past per character. Reaper crafting we can keep, but reaper items are dropped from hard core mode, also, no 50 RP requirement to craft a reaper item.

Remove reaper trees. Adjust monsters to accommodate. Cosmetic reaper wings we can keep. But its unobtainable in the future.

Reaper monster can still exist, but it is rare. By the D&D rules, reaper is invisible to the naked eye, and only appears when the character is close to death.

Caveat: this hard core mode favors tanks and self healing tanks and players with a lot of alts to play.

Double Caveat: Jibber's Blade, Resurrection, True Resurrection and Beckon Divinity is now less useful, and healing mid-battle is getting more important.

all of these ideas are really, really bad.

[Tyrande]

all of these ideas are really, really bad.

What's the alternative then? You can't just say 'bad' and give no solutions.

Those people with humongous reaper points are finding game too easy and may stop playing and paying and maybe stopping VIP.
Those new players won't play because they found it hard to catch up.

Only those middle-ground people finding R5->R10 still hard is going to continue playing...

Now people are soloing the newest raid because of having extreme reaper points with past lives and you called that balanced? how?

New Mode: Hard Core 1 would solve that.

New Mode: Hard Core 1+ would solve that better.

Hard Core 1+: Add self healing penalty like the previous reaper mode penalties. But as I mentioned before, reapers are rare and only appears if character(s) is close to death.

Close to Death: With equal or less than 10% hit points remaining.

Hard Core 10 mode: All past lives would not account for any benefits in this HC10 mode quest.

Hard Core 11 mode: All past lives, equipment(s) would not account for any benefits in this HC11 mode quest as if all equipment are broken.

Hard Core dungeons cannot be re-entered.