Primal Avatar : Mantle of Nature

[archerforever]

I have A LOT of questions...

Mantle of Nature :
Sky: Your Cold, Electric and Sonic spells have a chance to blast one target for an additional 1d6/1d6+3/1d6+6 damage per character of the same type as the spell used.
Each element can only strike once every 5 seconds, tracked separately.
Any melee or ranged attack can also generate one of these effects.


Your Cold, Electric and Sonic spells have a chance to blast one target for an additional
--> What is the chance % ?
--> Is it Scaling with spell power ?
--> If it is scaling, What is the % of scaling ?

Any melee or ranged attack can also generate one of these effects.
--> What is the chance % ?
--> Is it Scaling with spell power or melee/ranged power ?
--> If it is scaling, What is the % of scaling ?

PLEASE WE NEED MORE INFORMATIONS <3

[Tyrande]

Based on my sorcerer on "Sky":

It almost procs another one at least +50% of the time for the same damage.

But this is non mathematical, its just based on my observation (not calculated).

The bosses will definitely chase after the sorcerer if lightning strikes twice...

[Lorianna]

Like Tyrande, I haven't done the math on it, but I have several characters that use the primal avatar mantle, because it's just so damned good.

On melee: It feels like it's around a 60-80% proc rate. Almost every swing will set it off, until it uses up those "three charges" (ie, one of each elemental type that the aura can have). Scaling-wise, it has the same spellpower you do, so the more you have, the harder you hit. I have the thorn mantle on my druid, and when my dog sets it off, it hits for around 2500 -- which, by the way, makes my wolf actually quite useful even in reaper mode, as he's durable enough with the gear I have for him and the bonuses to health and such (he has around 3200 hp), and can deal substantial damage. It almost always goes off on my first swing to start the fight -- I'd say about 95% of the time it procs on the first swing if I haven't hit anything in a while.

For casting: It's about the same proc rate, and will typically go off with the first spell you fire that has that elemental type. With spells that deal multiple forms of damage at once (for instance, I use the sky mantle on my spellsinger, as thunderhorn deals both sonic and electrical damage, so can proc both), and occasionally multiple procs will go off at the same time. On my druid with the thorn mantle, casting carrion swarm will fairly often proc both the acid and poison elements on the same cast.

Overall, I've found that the primal mantle is probably my favorite, both for melee and spellcasters that can trigger multiple elements. I'm trying out the "heart" mantle on my paladin as well, so she can trigger it with melee as well as the SLAs for the fire proc. So far it seems to work fairly well, and it makes her insanely tanky.

[archerforever]

Like Tyrande, I haven't done the math on it, but I have several characters that use the primal avatar mantle, because it's just so damned good.

On melee: It feels like it's around a 60-80% proc rate. Almost every swing will set it off, until it uses up those "three charges" (ie, one of each elemental type that the aura can have). Scaling-wise, it has the same spellpower you do, so the more you have, the harder you hit. I have the thorn mantle on my druid, and when my dog sets it off, it hits for around 2500 -- which, by the way, makes my wolf actually quite useful even in reaper mode, as he's durable enough with the gear I have for him and the bonuses to health and such (he has around 3200 hp), and can deal substantial damage. It almost always goes off on my first swing to start the fight -- I'd say about 95% of the time it procs on the first swing if I haven't hit anything in a while.

For casting: It's about the same proc rate, and will typically go off with the first spell you fire that has that elemental type. With spells that deal multiple forms of damage at once (for instance, I use the sky mantle on my spellsinger, as thunderhorn deals both sonic and electrical damage, so can proc both), and occasionally multiple procs will go off at the same time. On my druid with the thorn mantle, casting carrion swarm will fairly often proc both the acid and poison elements on the same cast.

Overall, I've found that the primal mantle is probably my favorite, both for melee and spellcasters that can trigger multiple elements. I'm trying out the "heart" mantle on my paladin as well, so she can trigger it with melee as well as the SLAs for the fire proc. So far it seems to work fairly well, and it makes her insanely tanky.

Thanks for your answer, I really appreciate it.

As you say, the proc chance looks very high and damage looks like to have a good scaling, and that is good to know.
I just wish that we have more clarity in overall descriptions in DDO because it is boring to be in a permanent mystery and have to do hours of testing to understand and to find stats of abilities, like this and procs on weapons ect...

[Marshal_Lannes]

Overall, I've found that the primal mantle is probably my favorite, both for melee and spellcasters that can trigger multiple elements. I'm trying out the "heart" mantle on my paladin as well, so she can trigger it with melee as well as the SLAs for the fire proc. So far it seems to work fairly well, and it makes her insanely tanky.

Have you tried this on a melee with the fire primal mantle using legendary red dragon armor?

[Lorianna]

Have you tried this on a melee with the fire primal mantle using legendary red dragon armor?

I don't have the red dragon armor on her, so not yet. But so far the heart mantle works pretty well. She's bastard sword + shield (and <3 to the 'specialty' feats at 31st so I can save 3 feats by not needing to buy 2h fighting!) so it ups her damage a good bit, and makes her ridiculously hard to kill.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Nice. You've sparked my interest as I've never tried the primal mantle on a melee before. Gonna take a look at it.

I did a quick try of this and without fire spell power it was around 24 points of damage. Fire spell power was 110. Using a combustion ring to approximately double that didn't change anything as I was still getting 24 points of fire damage. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. What spell power do you have?

[Lorianna]

Nice. You've sparked my interest as I've never tried the primal mantle on a melee before. Gonna take a look at it.

I did a quick try of this and without fire spell power it was around 24 points of damage. Fire spell power was 110. Using a combustion ring to approximately double that didn't change anything as I was still getting 24 points of fire damage. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. What spell power do you have?

My paladin's fire spellpower is 358, light spellpower is 212. The light proc tends to hit for around 800-900, the fire proc around 1200-1300. Not sure if crit rate with those particular spellpowers affects the procs or not. I have a 27% crit chance with fire, due to wearing Cinderfingers from the Saltmarsh set, but only a 5% chance to crit with light/alignment.

Running some tests at the moment just killing stuff out on the Isle of Dread wilderness zone.
Light proc just crit something for 1900, and the fire proc crit on the next hit for 2700.

Are you sure the 24 fire damage was from the mantle, and not from a proc on the weapon itself (like a morninglord weapon or something, which adds fire + good + bane + any augment as well)?
I'm averaging about 24-26 from the various weapon procs on my morninglord sword, but the mantle hits are definitely significant damage, especially when they crit.

<edit> From testing, it feels like the melee crit chance for the mantle is based on your weapon crit profile, rather than spell crit. I was critting way more often than 5% with the light proc, and less than 27% with the fire proc. Since my crit profile with the bastard sword is 17-20, that felt about right as far as crit rate went. I was hunting for a light lore item to buff up my light crit chance, but based on this, I'm just going to slap on a light spellpower augment somewhere to bolster that, which should get my light spellpower to around 350, so it should hit for as much as the fire proc.

<edit pt2> Slotted a radiance augment into my sword and brought my light spellpower up to 361, and now the light proc is hitting for 1300ish and critting for 2700ish. So that's pretty solid.

[Marshal_Lannes]

My paladin's fire spellpower is 358, light spellpower is 212. The light proc tends to hit for around 800-900, the fire proc around 1200-1300. Not sure if crit rate with those particular spellpowers affects the procs or not. I have a 27% crit chance with fire, due to wearing Cinderfingers from the Saltmarsh set, but only a 5% chance to crit with light/alignment.

Running some tests at the moment just killing stuff out on the Isle of Dread wilderness zone.
Light proc just crit something for 1900, and the fire proc crit on the next hit for 2700.

Are you sure the 24 fire damage was from the mantle, and not from a proc on the weapon itself (like a morninglord weapon or something, which adds fire + good + bane + any augment as well)?
I'm averaging about 24-26 from the various weapon procs on my morninglord sword, but the mantle hits are definitely significant damage, especially when they crit.

<edit> From testing, it feels like the melee crit chance for the mantle is based on your weapon crit profile, rather than spell crit. I was critting way more often than 5% with the light proc, and less than 27% with the fire proc. Since my crit profile with the bastard sword is 17-20, that felt about right as far as crit rate went. I was hunting for a light lore item to buff up my light crit chance, but based on this, I'm just going to slap on a light spellpower augment somewhere to bolster that, which should get my light spellpower to around 350, so it should hit for as much as the fire proc.

<edit pt2> Slotted a radiance augment into my sword and brought my light spellpower up to 361, and now the light proc is hitting for 1300ish and critting for 2700ish. So that's pretty solid.

Alright, thanks for testing this and I can confirm that I did grab the first weapon I saw in my inventory and it was a Morninglord sword so the 24 fire was likely from that. Part of my problem is that I was looking for fire damage and that was the only one I was seeing. Does the proc from the mantle come off as regular damage in the display? If you surmise that the melee crit profile is based on the weapon do you think this is enhanced by all the standard crit enhancement feat melee load up on?

[Lorianna]

Alright, thanks for testing this and I can confirm that I did grab the first weapon I saw in my inventory and it was a Morninglord sword so the 24 fire was likely from that. Part of my problem is that I was looking for fire damage and that was the only one I was seeing. Does the proc from the mantle come off as regular damage in the display? If you surmise that the melee crit profile is based on the weapon do you think this is enhanced by all the standard crit enhancement feat melee load up on?

It'll show up as fire, light, alignment damage in the combat log (as well as the number popping up over the mob's head when you slap it), so you should be able to easily see the damage you're doing with the mantle. When I was testing it I'd just walk up and hit a mob once to make the mantle proc, then look at the combat log for the number, rather than keep swinging. It definitely feels like it has around a 100% proc for one of the element types on your first swing if it's a new refresh of the mantle, with other elements having a much lower chance to proc at the same time -- though it might just be that when both would go off at once it was due to a doublestrike? I don't know.

As for the damage being enhanced by crit feats, I'm honestly not sure. I've got a bard who doesn't have any of the crit stuff that I can swap over to the mantle for testing, so let's see...

My bard is using a rapier, but has no crit feats or anything, but has 670 sonic spellpower, 570 electric and 525 cold spellpower, using the sky mantle. Her procs were hitting for 1900-2300 depending on the element that was going off, with sonic obviously being the highest. Didn't see any crits with the mantle, despite critting with my weapon now and then. Since she doesn't have improved crit, maybe that means the proc only crits 5% of the time, rather than 10%? Toggling swashbuckling on and off didn't seem to change anything (despite the +1 crit mod from rapiers with that on) Hard to say without a LOT of testing, or some math from SSG.

If the test server was up, I'd try a full swashbuckler build with as many +crit feats and talents as I could squeeze in to see what it would come up with.

Given how much damage the mantle does per hit, and with how much it can do on a crit, as well as being able to proc 3 times every 5 seconds, I imagine a full swashbuckler with single-weapon fighting, improved crit, overwhelming crit, etc, might be a real terror using the primal mantle. With good spellpower, you could be adding an extra 7-12k damage every 5 seconds.

Going to grab the IoD named pick I found on my paladin and test that, as well, to see if the crit profile bumps the crit damage up. And only got one crit with the mantle, but it wasn't any higher than using my bastard sword, so the mantle proc multiplier seems to just be x2, rather than affected by your weapon's crit multiplier.

[peng]

The way doublestrike works now is it doubles the damage rather than hitting twice. So your bigger procs were likely doublestrikes, whereas your bard might have little or no doublestrike chance.

I haven't done my own testing yet, but it might be a relatively high chance to proc (25-50%), along with 3 different elements having that chance, that almost guarantees a proc on your first hit.

As a caster, I think that unless you mostly use spells of your primal elements *and* use at least 2 regularly, this mantle is not as good as exalted or draconic, since those proc on *any* offensive spell, not just specific elements.

[Lorianna]

The way doublestrike works now is it doubles the damage rather than hitting twice. So your bigger procs were likely doublestrikes, whereas your bard might have little or no doublestrike chance.

I haven't done my own testing yet, but it might be a relatively high chance to proc (25-50%), along with 3 different elements having that chance, that almost guarantees a proc on your first hit.

As a caster, I think that unless you mostly use spells of your primal elements *and* use at least 2 regularly, this mantle is not as good as exalted or draconic, since those proc on *any* offensive spell, not just specific elements.

Ah, the doublestrike thing is probably it then, yeah. My bard has almost none, while my paladin has 45% doublestrike.

As for the proc rate, it's definitely higher than 25-50%. It feels closer to 80-90%. Because I've only had EXTREMELY rare instances where it doesn't proc on the first swing (just had one a couple seconds ago when I was testing again), and generally it will proc per swing for the first two swings, with maybe a one swing non-proc on the third, then proc on the fourth, then the mantle will wait for 5 seconds to be up, then start procing again. I was experimenting fighting some mobs only swinging three times every five seconds, and it proced on all but like 2 swings of about 20 or so. So the proc rate is definitely quite high.

For a pure caster, yeah, draconic is generally superior due to it procing on every spell you throw, though imo the entire tree seems a bit too focused around the epic strike/breath weapon. Kind of how it's frustrating how many things in primal are "after you use a shrine". I almost never use shrines in quests, because I don't need to, even running on LE or R1-2.

For melee though, I was looking for a damage mantle that was better than the bard (which can only proc once every 10 seconds) and the paladin (every 8 seconds), and kind of stumbled into primal for her and noticed how much extra damage it was adding to her melee.

[droid327]

Its worth noting that all the other damage-proc-on-cast mantles are absolutely dwarfed by the Draconic mantle.

And they dont scale well enough off of melee attacks to be worthwhile, with their 5 sec ICD. You're better off with DC mantle for full BAB, or EA for autohealing if you have decent spellpower+hamp

[Lorianna]

Its worth noting that all the other damage-proc-on-cast mantles are absolutely dwarfed by the Draconic mantle.

And they dont scale well enough off of melee attacks to be worthwhile, with their 5 sec ICD. You're better off with DC mantle for full BAB, or EA for autohealing if you have decent spellpower+hamp

Well, my paladin already has full BAB, since she's a pure pally. And the autoheal doesn't help me kill stuff faster and isn't really necessary as I have 12 LoH for emergencies that are full-heals and regenerate every 60s or so combined with renewal that's a 50% heal every 5 seconds. I wanted a damage mantle, and primal was the only really viable one I found. 3 procs every 5 seconds works out to about one every 1.7 seconds, which is just fine with me. It's giving her an extra 1k dps or so. It does require you to build a bit of spellpower though, but that's easy enough with augments or a couple pieces of gear.

[peng]

Ok, just did some testing. Single target sonic spell proc'ed 47/100 times. Melee proc'ed cold 55/100. Melee hits often proc'ed multiple elements per strike. I made sure to wait over 5 seconds between each attack. I'm pretty confident the proc chance is 50% per element, with each element's chance independent of the others. This would give an 87.5% chance of at least 1 proc on the 1st melee/ranged hit, higher if you are using an aoe or have an off-hand hit chance.

I'd say that as long as you have multiple spells for at least 2 elements, primal mantle is probably more dps than exalted.

The math for melee is a bit less clear, what with +1[w] and the melee power from cores and how they multiply your damage based on your crit profile, vs 3 procs pretty much every 5 sec that depend on 3 different spellpowers. I wouldn't be surprised if primal is more dps if you have relatively bad melee power and/or crit profile, while better melee power and crit profiles might prefer a melee destiny and mantle. This is just supposition on my part, have not done the math.

[tapster]

Does anybody know if all your summons share a common proc cooldown with you, or is each 'mantle' tracked separately?

Reading my combat log it states that I hit with a proc whilst my summons hits with melee damage. So I suspect that the proc shares a common cooldown.

[Lorianna]

Does anybody know if all your summons share a common proc cooldown with you, or is each 'mantle' tracked separately?

Reading my combat log it states that I hit with a proc whilst my summons hits with melee damage. So I suspect that the proc shares a common cooldown.

I'd have to run some tests to make certain, but I'm pretty sure your summons each have their own 'version' of the mantle, so they can proc 3 times every 5 seconds each. My druid tends to run with her dog, the raptor hireling, and the satyr hireling, and when they're all attacking, I see tons of damage procs going off.

<edit> Did some testing after I got home from work. I ran up and melee'd some mobs a few times, proc'd the mantle. My wolf attacked a different mob at the same time, and proc'd the mantle as well. So each copy of the mantle seems to have its own separate cooldowns. So if you're a druid/artificer, you can have your procs, your pet's procs, and however many hirelings' and summons as well. I know that when I've fought boss mobs at the end of quests, they tend to melt VERY quickly with my druid, due to her spells procing the mantle, her wolf, the hireling, and then her primal tier-5 summon as well.