What is the obstacle for transferring Guilds in a server merge?

[bracelet]

can you elaborate on the slot issue? i feel like "let everyone keep all the slots they're using" wouldn't make anyone unhappy, and the same principle for shared banks

Combining all the character slots someone is using seems like a simple solution, but it is not. It is inherently unfair to people who didn't use any character slots on any other servers. Suppose one person paid for 10 slots, but only used them on one server. Compare that to some one who paid for 10 slots and rolled up 10 characters on 7 servers. After a merge the second player will have far more character slots (and potential storage) than the first player. Obviously the first player is highly incentivized to fill up every single slot on every server before the merge so that they do not have a disadvantage after the merge. Forgetting the rage that would ensue from players that forget to do this, the potential namespace pollution from the players that remembered to do it would be horrific.

The other solution is to combine all the characters from both servers, keep the character slot cap exactly the same, and make only the highest ranked XP ones available to play. Unavailable characters could only be accessed by deleting an available character or, if your slots aren't capped, by buying another slot. This is exactly what happens when you switch to premium from VIP. This would also outrage many folks, but to my mind is significantly fairer and more practical since they already have code to do this.

[Chai]

IMHO , if we have lag now on seperate servers, I would not want to find out what would happen if all servers were merged into one. Lag would be have to be reduced to near zero before a server merge would be a good idea.

If same resources are used to manage same populace in same number of instances, there wont be any more lag if the server number is reduced.

"Servers" nowdays are not a hard barrier to resource allocation like they were in the 80s and previous. We are already seeing some games which used to keep populaces separate on a "per server" basis condense their entire populaces to one "mega-shard" so they can all play together. This has not resulted in the often theory-crafted-on-forums myth of "more lag." simply due to the evaporation of server divisions.

[Chai]

Combining all the character slots someone is using seems like a simple solution, but it is not. It is inherently unfair to people who didn't use any character slots on any other servers. Suppose one person paid for 10 slots, but only used them on one server. Compare that to some one who paid for 10 slots and rolled up 10 characters on 7 servers. After a merge the second player will have far more character slots (and potential storage) than the first player. Obviously the first player is highly incentivized to fill up every single slot on every server before the merge so that they do not have a disadvantage after the merge. Forgetting the rage that would ensue from players that forget to do this, the potential namespace pollution from the players that remembered to do it would be horrific.

The other solution is to combine all the characters from both servers, keep the character slot cap exactly the same, and make only the highest ranked XP ones available to play. Unavailable characters could only be accessed by deleting an available character or, if your slots aren't capped, by buying another slot. This is exactly what happens when you switch to premium from VIP. This would also outrage many folks, but to my mind is significantly fairer and more practical since they already have code to do this.

Combine purchased character slots additively.

If I bought 10 character slots and used all 10 on one server and 4 on another that means post merge I have 6 free character slots on the merge server.

[bracelet]

Combine purchased character slots additively.

If I bought 10 character slots and used all 10 on one server and 4 on another that means post merge I have 6 free character slots on the merge server.

It could work like that. But SSG will likely never see any meaningful revenue from character slots ever again. Given the current one character focus most people take nowadays, they probably aren't seeing much from that anymore anyway.

[Kinerd]

Combining all the character slots someone is using seems like a simple solution, but it is not. It is inherently unfair to people who didn't use any character slots on any other servers. Suppose one person paid for 10 slots, but only used them on one server. Compare that to some one who paid for 10 slots and rolled up 10 characters on 7 servers. After a merge the second player will have far more character slots (and potential storage) than the first player. Obviously the first player is highly incentivized to fill up every single slot on every server before the merge so that they do not have a disadvantage after the merge. Forgetting the rage that would ensue from players that forget to do this, the potential namespace pollution from the players that remembered to do it would be horrific.

i agree that Chai's solution makes more sense

[Kinerd]

There are a lot of technical problems with a server merge that are not always easy to spot beforehand. How many of you would sit by patiently and keep paying even if the game is down for a few months? Not many I would bet. The developers have problems fixing current bugs. Does it seem like a good idea to quadruple (or more likely 10x) the number of bugs on their plate?

why stop there... what if the server merge deletes every character? what if it causes every developer to quit? what if it destroys the entire US power grid or, indeed, the entire universe? we've been through this before. it worked fine. it'll work fine this time too.

The real issue isn't technical anyway, it is social. If SSG declared Ghallanda was shutting down next week, half the people on Ghallanda would rage quit. Or any other server for that matter. DDO players aren't really known for putting up with changes they don't like. This would be like nerfing a whole server. What people really mean when they say 'server merge' is merge all the other servers with mine and leave my stuff alone. People want more players on their server but they DO NOT WANT to move to another server or they already would have.

they would have except server transfers cost money and players have no reasonable expectation that another server will be dramatically more populated.

[SiliconScout]

IMHO , if we have lag now on seperate servers, I would not want to find out what would happen if all servers were merged into one. Lag would be have to be reduced to near zero before a server merge would be a good idea.

You don't have to, Hard Core had crazy high population compared to MOST servers, in that time I found that I lagged exactly one time playing there when I know it wasn't me. I had 2 other instances of client lag. Compare this to my home server where I see lag about 50% of the time that I play.

I think that is a pretty definitive example of more population not meaning more lag. What I think it might have shown is that TR caches cause lag though as there would have been comparatively very few characters with TR caches. Could just be that it's a new server running from scratch and therefore doesn't have whatever "cruft" builds up on a server over time. Not sure but I can for sure say that HC had well over x2 the number of characters running around (maybe x10) as Thelanis at any given time and it ran a LOT more smoothly.

And, for me at least, when I am talking server merge I mean that there is a brand new server created and two or more existing servers are merged into it. Thus everyone involved is moving.

Solving the bank and guild issues would be paramount, but if they can be solved with a reasonable ROI then I think server merges would largely be a huge net positive. For those running closed groups, you still are because everyone came over. For guilds with a large base or a meaningful attachment you are still good because all of it came over. For those who want to PUG it's better because you have a larger PUG pool to draw upon.

It would be nice if they also resolved naming conflicts based on most active toon in the last year with that name. Thus Joe Blow on Server A who plays daily gets to keep his name over Joe Blow on Server B who was created 8 years ago but hasn't logged in for a year. if they are both "active" then take the one with the most hours played if that is a possible to determine for SSG, or that was created first if not.

Honestly though I think the naming issue is minimal at best I occasionally see ~1 named toons still running around because they'd rather keep the name and that's cool too.

[SiliconScout]

There are a lot of technical problems with a server merge that are not always easy to spot beforehand.

How many of you would sit by patiently and keep paying even if the game is down for a few months? Not many I would bet.

The developers have problems fixing current bugs. Does it seem like a good idea to quadruple (or more likely 10x) the number of bugs on their plate?

...

If all "merges" are from existing to a newly created server then the advantage for SSG is that they can complete this merge as often as they need offline until they get it right / WAI. Take snapshots of the existing servers (or use backups of them, whatever works easiest) and run the process on them. See what you get for a result.

I would hope and expect that would be the case considering that it's a "no backsies" kind of event for them. There are a handful of potential unforseens (say a logon issue caused in the launcher due to the deleted servers as an example) but by and large those should be simple fixes. The real heavy lifting is the merge itself an ensuring the intended merge mechanics worked as intended. I expect another potentially large issue is ensuring they have enough trained and effective Customer Support Reps dedicated to DDO for say the first week or two of the merger so that if there are issues they can be dealt with quickly and efficiently.

[Zaglor]

IMHO , if we have lag now on seperate servers, I would not want to find out what would happen if all servers were merged into one. Lag would be have to be reduced to near zero before a server merge would be a good idea.

What Kind Of Lag Are You Having? Frame Rate Lag Or Actual Connection Issues? I've Played 98 hours A Week This Whole Semester (Easy semester and I get paid to go to school) and rarely ever encounter any kind of actual packet based lag. Regardless of that fact would you rather have a few months of lag until they can fix it or play single player DDO?

[Zaglor]

Unless you have a magic crystal ball that told you that, your reply is as irrelevant as you believe this thread to be. That's your opinion, and it's not the opinion of the community as a whole. If you can't answer the question asked by the OP, it's perfectly acceptable to just move on. The rest of the community will continue discussing server merges - something that has been brought up many times by many different players lately.



Regarding a server merge I can say that 100% of [the players I play with regularly] think a server merge is merited. See how ridiculous that statement is? Your minimal personal experience is admirable, but it's not that important.

Go back and read the other replies to this thread and the many that have been brought up in the past. There is support for server merges. You just have to reach beyond the echo chamber.

tElL hIm hE dOeSnT sPeAk 4 Teh Kommunitiy *Insert Stupid Spongebob Meme Here*

[Clemeit]

tElL hIm hE dOeSnT sPeAk 4 Teh Kommunitiy *Insert Stupid Spongebob Meme Here*

I considered it. And it took every ounce of what little self control I have left to abstain.

[Anuulified]

What if we dont want your server population coming to ours? What if the culture on your server is what caused it to be a ghost town. How do we know your servers people wont do that to ours? Fears come in many forms.

[Zaglor]

What if we dont want your server population coming to ours? What if the culture on your server is what caused it to be a ghost town. How do we know your servers people wont do that to ours? Fears come in many forms.

Your Server is probably equally as dead.

[Fenrisulven7]

This is an irrelevant topic as server merging will not occur and is not needed.

LOL. This guy thinks he's in charge of the forums or something...

If you as an individual player do not like the server your playing on transfer to another of your choice.

...although he certainly told that Strawman a thing or two! Poor Strawman.

I'm going to pretend that was meant as parody.



But back to my question - so what I'm hearing here is that Guilds are no harder to transfer during a server merge than toons? Has SSG transferred Guilds (at current levels) in the past?

I was just curious if there was any special problem that would make everyone have to restart their Guild over from scratch.

I take it SSG does not allow you to transfer an established guild to a new server on your own, but that if SSG did a server merge then Guilds would be transferred at their current level?

Thanks
Fen

[Clemeit]

Proposal 1: The guild leader gets a Token of Guild Renown equal to the total amount of renown the guild currently has, and an Official Guild Charter certificate. The guild is disbanded upon transfer. The guild leader can reform the guild under the same name (if available) or a new name, and use the token of renown on the new guild.

If the guild leader is inactive, that token goes to the next in line. If the next in line is inactive, it goes to the most recently active officer. If there are no active officers, your guild is probably dead. Sorry.

Proposal 2: The guild and all of its members are transferred together and fully intact. If the guild name conflicts with one on the new server, the guild leader is given a renaming token.

[lyrecono]

This is an irrelevant topic as server merging will not occur and is not needed. If you as an individual player do not like the server your playing on transfer to another of your choice.

This is irrelevant reply, cause big part of community wants server merge, and for example in my opinion merge is really needed. Also not easy to choose other server when all of them are equally empty.

Some servers have a severe lack of players in certain hours.

To qoute what SEV stated at the end of 2015


"We plan on revisiting the idea of server merges after we've moved to the new datacenter which is slated for in sometime in the new year.We want to make sure we have lag under control before we concentrate the players. We recently made some fairly large changes to help combat lag, particularly in the Stormhorns and other places where monsters can use persistent AoE effects. We haven't heard any feedback that lag is reduced, but the nature of that beast is that we only hear about it when lag is bad.There are some obstacles to overcome, like making sure shared storage and guild move over and players have good tools to deal with name collisions for both characters and guilds.Sev~"


DDOWIKI

To repeat if we are going to get a merge it will be when SSG has it all ironed out

I will not go into whether one is needed or not, it would be a pointless exercise in rumination over things beyond our control

That explains their lackluster attempts to fix the lag XD
Then again, i have painfully learned that claims made by certain turbine/ ssg members should be treated lightly....

I hope the comments made on the forum do not reflect your internal self-poll that a 'big part of the community wants a server merge'. For me I can only speak to the 30 plus players I play with daily in Team Speak on Khyber. Myself and 2 or 3 others that actually visit the forum relay topics discussed from the forums at times. Regarding a server merge I can say that 100% of those DDO players do not think a server merge is merited.

says who? u? tell that to all the ppl who left cus there weren't enough ppl to play with

Claiming you have an amazing population during your playtine on your server is like sending pictures of you wasting waters by the gallons to some drought cursed village on the edge of some dessert. It helps no-one.

IMHO , if we have lag now on seperate servers, I would not want to find out what would happen if all servers were merged into one. Lag would be have to be reduced to near zero before a server merge would be a good idea.

Not possible as long as people:
1) continue to play on potatoes, i'm sometimes amazed to hear what kind of 15 year old pc and laptops some of you use with the lowest possible settins and on screens a modern tablet would laugh at, some of you even try playing it on a mac......

2) people don't play on a decent connection, actually, some of the playerbase plays from truck, mobile homes,drilling platforms, cabins in the woods and untill he went dark, in the Australian outback, something to do with seeing a lot of smoke and and an orrange glow comming his way, least thats the last i heard from him on discord. (If you're reading this on your phone mate, drop a message to let us know you're fine)

3) the devs may use a sub par hosting service maybe?

4) we're dealing with an outdated architecture 64 bits might help some of the memory drain, roughly 2gig vs 64 gig would atleast postpone the memory leak and subsequent issues.

5) a list of issues we're not even previewed to, ranging from internal politics at ssg, financial decissions that might be out of the hands of the devs and technical limitations due to the old code not fully being understood by all the devs.

[psykopeta]

What Kind Of Lag Are You Having? Frame Rate Lag Or Actual Connection Issues? I've Played 98 hours A Week This Whole Semester (Easy semester and I get paid to go to school) and rarely ever encounter any kind of actual packet based lag. Regardless of that fact would you rather have a few months of lag until they can fix it or play single player DDO?

Once SSG admitted there's lag, they're trying to fix it but don't know how, and it stops emfrom making other useful stuff (like merging servers, already quoted in that thread), makes the "i don't havelag, it's your pc" meaningless

PS:if they allow me to move all my toons to 1 server for free, in a pack, everytime i feel it right (cause population changes, etc) i would stop asking for server merges

[Gniewomir]

Once SSG admitted there's lag, they're trying to fix it but don't know how, and it stops emfrom making other useful stuff (like merging servers, already quoted in that thread), makes the "i don't havelag, it's your pc" meaningless

PS:if they allow me to move all my toons to 1 server for free, in a pack, everytime i feel it right (cause population changes, etc) i would stop asking for server merges

They're are trying to fix it, so we're getting new quests, expansions, races, classes every few months and still not a single, decent lag fix, just some multiplayer nerfs (like making night reveals single player event). Draw conclussions by yourself. :P

As you can see i've got join date december 2019 and right now i've got lvl 18 characters on 6/8 servers, so i've got some knowledge about heroic grouping on almost all servers. I assure you, there's no noticeable difference.

[Strider1963]

What Kind Of Lag Are You Having? Frame Rate Lag Or Actual Connection Issues? I've Played 98 hours A Week This Whole Semester (Easy semester and I get paid to go to school) and rarely ever encounter any kind of actual packet based lag. Regardless of that fact would you rather have a few months of lag until they can fix it or play single player DDO?

I have the same kind of lag most people have, server lag, and no, its not all the time, but seems to be more prevalent at hours where there are more people online. Also, theres the problem of porting lag, or even the game hanging or becoming non responsive when attempting to port to a different location. And of course, theres bank lag, where you try to move stuff around in the bank and it takes forever.This is why they restart the servers at least once a week, so it must be a server problem. Its kind of ridiculous to be able to play the game, getting over 200 fps and not being able to move. I have a 3 month old gaming comp, albeit a lower end machine with a decent graphics card and the rig is definately op for an older game like this, for a newer game, it might not be so great. And i still say, no matter what Chai says, the more players on a server, the more lag there will be. This is proven by the fact that during busier times of the day, the lag problem starts popping up, where early in the morming, my time (est), there is rarely any problems. This has been going on for years now, and apparently there's no way for the devs to resolve it, unless its a matter of better equipment which they probably cant afford.

[Chai]

What if we dont want your server population coming to ours? What if the culture on your server is what caused it to be a ghost town. How do we know your servers people wont do that to ours? Fears come in many forms.

If Xoriat shenanigans didnt "ruin" Tharashk players fun when those were merged to Thelanis, I highly doubt any of the kitty cat stuff by comparison happening nowdays is going to cause anyone to bat an eye one way or the other if/when merges happen down the road.