Is this a good trend? Happening in LOTR?

[UurlockYgmeov]

"Friend sent me this link,, maybe something to think about?"

If they are doing it in LOTR - will Ravenloft be this way as well?

Church: ‘Shadow of War’ Is the Latest Example of an Industry Seeking to Profit from Young Gamblers

by NATE CHURCH25 Aug 2017116

I came away from this year’s Electronic Entertainment Expo excited about a precious few upcoming titles. Foremost among them was Middle-earth: Shadow of War. I described the elegance with which the developers introduced complexity to 2014’s Shadow of Mordor‘s alchemy of procedural generation and visceral combat. I said that I would be “shocked if it doesn’t immediately become one of the year’s highlights” upon its release, and I meant it.
When Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment first announced the presence of loot chests in the upcoming Shadow of War, I was flabbergasted. It was a reaction shared by the vast majority of the gaming community at large.

Not only would micro-transactions invade the single-player experience, they would be directly tied to mechanical advantages that would negate time spent actually playing the game. It is an even more egregious spiritual successor to Ubisoft’s abusive tactics in the Assassins Creed series; locking much of the game’s best equipment, and then badgering you to open your wallet while you play.

WBIE has doubled down on that practice, and in doing so, they have turned Shadow of War into a glorified slot machine.

No, it’s not technically (read: legally) gambling. It’s worse. While it is equally as exploitative of the player, the promise of reward is completely artificial. Furthermore, there are multiple studies that suggest that the early introduction of these concepts can have a real impact on the severity of gambling problems later in life. Children who start gambling early have been found to gamble more and (even) less responsibly.

Rather than search for “whales” among their consumers, many of today’s biggest names in the gaming industry are raising their own.

Loot boxes and their ilk have proven a clever disguise for the behavioral conditioning that major game publishers have begun to employ as a matter of course. From mobile games to the biggest AAA titles in the industry like Overwatch, Call of Duty, and League of Legends, the problem continues to spread because our lawmakers simply aren’t paying attention. The closest we have gotten to a real examination of the issue was an impotent and arguably misdirected offensive against Steam’s tradeable item marketplace.

Until we call publishers to account for these practices, our children will be continually trained to answer the lure of digital Skinner Boxes. So long as we excuse the practice, it will continue to expand until it eclipses the immersive experience that games once intended to provide.

But customers sucked into the world of loot box accelerants aren’t the only ones gambling. Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment and other publishers are making a terrible wager. They are measuring the value of your time spent on their game, and then bluntly suggesting to their own customers that there is value in avoiding it. It clearly defines the publisher’s opinion of both the game and its creators — in the most negative possible way.

So, while I’m giving advice that absolutely no one will follow, here’s something for free:

Just stop. Write up another press release. Apologize to your fans for insulting them and to your hard working development team for devaluing the work they have put into making something worth our time. Take a hard step back from the reviled business practices for which you are quickly becoming infamous, and don’t forfeit all the good will you have gained on the backs of the talented creators in your employ.

Eventually, someone will realize that loot box schemes are no more than thinly veiled attempts to produce young gamblers. When that happens, you have a choice; to be the ones who came the wrong way around to the right decision… or Exhibit A.

I reached out to Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment for comment but received no response at the time of this writing.

Follow Nate Church @Get2Church on Twitter for the latest news in gaming and technology, and snarky opinions on both.

[MacRighteous]

Shadows of War isn't LotRO.
It's a single player console game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle..._Shadow_of_War

But doesn't something similar already happen in DDO?

Daily dice rolls
Loot Gems
Treasure Hunters elixir
etc.

I am never convinced that they do any good - seems like I get just as crappy rolls with the boosts than I do without them.

/Mac

[Aelonwy]

I read the article. What does it have to do with LotRO? Am I missing something? Its about a game still owned by WB right? DDO and LotRO are SSG.
If you are asking how I feel about gambling (real money) in a fantasy game then I will point out that I have never, and will never use chest rerolls and other than free daily dice I don't gamble on that interface either.

They've already brought gambling into this game. But yeah loot boxes with the shiny 1 in a million chance of getting better loot then you can from playing would probably be my last straw. I play as a family and I don't want my children introduced to that excrement.

[Drus-the-Axe]

"They are measuring the value of your time spent on their game, and then bluntly suggesting to their own customers that there is value in avoiding it."

And that's why I hate Otto's Boxes

[starbuck1771]

Shadows of War isn't LotRO.
It's a single player console game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle..._Shadow_of_War

But doesn't something similar already happen in DDO?

Daily dice rolls
Loot Gems
Treasure Hunters elixir
etc.

I am never convinced that they do any good - seems like I get just as crappy rolls with the boosts than I do without them.

/Mac

Yes it has been in DDO & LotRO for years with loot boxes

[Niminae]

You linked to a Breitbart article. Delete your account.

[TDarkchylde]

You linked to a Breitbart article. Delete your account.

I didn't even notice, but aside from the fact that the article has absolutely nothing to do with SSG (remember that SSG no longer has any connection whatsoever to WB), LOTRO or DDO (ditto the games), plus linking a fake news site... yeah. Pretty much invalidates the OP's entire argument.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I didn't even notice, but aside from the fact that the article has absolutely nothing to do with SSG (remember that SSG no longer has any connection whatsoever to WB), LOTRO or DDO (ditto the games), plus linking a fake news site... yeah. Pretty much invalidates the OP's entire argument.

Nobody at SSG was around during the WB days?

[TDarkchylde]

Nobody at SSG was around during the WB days?

You seem to have missed where I said "no longer." Whatever mandates WB has for their games, SSG isn't bound by.

Yes, WB's bad practices in their games should be called out. They deserve to be drowned in complaints. But there's no sense doing it here on a board for a game run by a company that has absolutely nothing to do with them anymore.

[Pyed-Pyper]

You seem to have missed where I said "no longer." Whatever mandates WB has for their games, SSG isn't bound by.

Yes, WB's bad practices in their games should be called out. They deserve to be drowned in complaints. But there's no sense doing it here on a board for a game run by a company that has absolutely nothing to do with them anymore.

So it is not possible that the people present during the WB days continued some the WB ideas or philosophy?

Just because WB and Turbine are gone doesn't mean their bad ideas are.

[starbuck1771]

Nobody at SSG was around during the WB days?

You would be incorrect. They were in fact Turbine employees. These are the same devs who worked on the game for both Turbine and WB.

[Saekee]

It is not SSG/LotRo but that does not matter.

The gambling hall tactic has been at work in games for some time--DDO is no exception. First, one uses 'chips' instead of real money so as to diminish the sense/caution that one is actually spending real money. This is so pervasive in games that it has become normalized; given the international populations, it has justification--but the effect remains.

Then there is the gambling experience of trying to get rare loot. One rolls the slot machine every time they open the chest for something sought-for: there is that moment of hesitancy, expectation, rise of hope and then: invisible dice roll. The micro transaction of chest rerolls are simply exploiting one's disappointment & pushing hopes--pull the arm again!

Gambling halls use heavy chaotic visuals to destable individuals so that they are more likely drawn into the gambling spirit. The ugly rugs in Vegas are intentional--no sense of being 'grounded' & bright flashing lights add to this effect. Video games, especially fast-paced ones, cause this easily and even without intention.

The list goes on--I am no gambling expert--so in general, overcome this effect by slowing down, enjoy the ride, limit/bracket your playtime, create a game of your own within the game...See my ROGUE sig...

[BigErkyKid]

DDO is all about the p2skip:

- LR: p2skip playing a build that sucks, or having to re level another one when you want a change.
- Otto's: p2skip having to grind XP
- Chest re rolls: p2skip repetitions of a chest
- XP boosters: pots&tomes, p2skip hours of gameplay

While you can play without paying for any of those, everything in the game is designed to push you towards paying.

I do feel it is true that the gaming industry is acquiring some of the worst habits from casinos.

And at the end of the day, freaking mediocre games! The depth and sense of innovation of some of the old titles is completely gone nowadays.

Most long standing titles I know are going towards fast food status (hearts of iron, total war). Fast paced, flashy, swallow. And for MMOs, incredibly grindy.

[Keladon]

DDO is all about the p2skip:

- LR: p2skip playing a build that sucks, or having to re level another one when you want a change.
- Otto's: p2skip having to grind XP
- Chest re rolls: p2skip repetitions of a chest
- XP boosters: pots&tomes, p2skip hours of gameplay

While you can play without paying for any of those, everything in the game is designed to push you towards paying.

So DDO is all about paying you so don't have to play?
I'd hardly call that pushing you towards paying.

[Cantor]

You linked to a Breitbart article.

Pretty much all I needed to know too.

[acdcrocks]

Pretty much all I needed to know too.

who cares the exact article he's linking to doesn't violate any rules
but really...ibtl xd

[BestName]

at least it wasn't CNN, New York Times, Salon ect

Politics aside, who cares who wrote it if it's a gaming related issue and true

[UurlockYgmeov]

Politics aside, who cares who wrote it if it's a gaming related issue and true

I don't care (for the most part) where the article comes from - if the article is well written, and has valid points. In this case it does and those points may or may not apply to DDO.

I was mistaken about LOTRO - but it seems to me that there are these things in DDO, albeit they seem to have been mostly countered (so far) by, ummm, issues in execution or code.

Even with that said, will SSG attempt to bring in new versions of this - say in Ravenloft? Are they going to attempt to fix/add to existing versions?

I have been impressed with the conversation (except for off topic chatter), and thank you, given me things to think about concerning the game.

"Have fun storming the castle!"
"But I am feeling MUCH better now!"

[Renvar]

If some people want to partake of these practices and that generates revenue for the game company, which allows you to play the game for free, or for less than otherwise, or allows the developer to do another expansion, etc, then I don't really care.

In DDO, gold rolls, re-rolling chests, using loot boots, ottos stones, etc, is all optional. You can play the game at the very highest level without any of that. If others wish to spend their money on those items, some of which is similar to gambling, then so be it. It's no different, really, then them deciding to pay for a ViP to get faster movement in public areas and a 10% quest XP boost. If they want to spend money to improve their experience (or the chance to do so), more power to them.

The lottery in the U.S. is legalized gambling and around 11% of that money goes to government services, like education. Most people call that a regressive tax, however. You can consider these options in DDO as a voluntary tax on maintaining the game.

Now, if it becomes a mandatory part of game play, that's different. But so far, DDO's options are purely voluntary, optional and/or convenience items.

[Chai]

Not only would micro-transactions invade the single-player experience, they would be directly tied to mechanical advantages that would negate time spent actually playing the game.

The reviewers who are just now iterating LOTRO is the testing grounds for this are likely not aware of the community's hand over fist support for it in DDO over the past 8 years.