U33.2 aggro mechanic

[Torc]

This is quoted from ddowiki

"When making a Bluff attempt, the game rolls a Bluff check (1d20 + total Bluff skill + other modifiers) and compares the total roll against the formula (10 + target's base Hit Dice + target's Wisdom modifier + other modifiers). If the roll is greater than or equal to this value, the Bluff succeeds.

Every time a monster is successfully Bluffed, it gains a permanent cumulative +1 modifier to resist later Bluffs. There is no way to reset this bonus short of respawning the monster. Any creature that can be Bluffed eventually becomes immune to Bluffing if it works enough times - or if it fails enough times."



The second paragraph says that every successful bluff increases the targets resistances to bluff, is this still true? If so then against high hp monsters Shiv will most likely become useless after a few uses due to increasing resistances to bluff along with the higher dc required for bluff to hit.

Now compare this to Ranger Exposing Strike which has no save and Monk Unbalancing Strike which has reflex save have no penalty on the target with repeated use of the attack.

Also Rogue gets a maximum of 3 points they can invest into bluff which are in Acrobat tree, some classes are unable to spend enhancements points into bluff.

Bluff difficulty does not increase with each attempt. The wiki appears to be incorrect. I couldn't find evidence of it working this way for a long time either, though it's possible it may of many years back.

Character skills that have bluff like effects do not solo pull currently. Ranger distracting shot, etc, feature the sneak attack vul and turn around distract elements, but the solo pull is exclusive to the skill proper. These enhancement skills don't overtly say they allow for solo pulling but do refer to themselves as "bluff" effects which is naturally confusing. We'll likely touch up their text soon.

[GODDEATH]

...seems it requires teamwork more now??
i miss this aspect of game which was more prevalent years past.
heck you may even NEED a healer?
WHAT? play your class like it was intended???? teamwork? strategy? what?

[Torc]

@Torc

What happened to mob facing?

What happened to player skills like hide and move silently?

Mobs should "spot" players using a semicircle, not a radius, and be opposed by a hide score.

Mobs should "hear" players in a circle, and turn towards the sound they heard, while being opposed by a move silently score.

This doesn't seem to be what you describe.

Could you quote me what I said that has you doubting any of the above, because outside of some edge cases were trying to run down, isn't the system doing all of the above?

[zehnvhex]

Could you quote me what I said that has you doubting any of the above, because outside of some edge cases were trying to run down, isn't the system doing all of the above?

Sure.

Zehn is quite clearly the most handsome person playing DDO today. In fact, I think we're going to make every suggestion he puts forth our top priority because he is so clearly amazing. Our first plan of action is going to be getting rid of spell reagents because we agree, they are an archaic design element from back when developers hated gamers (mid 2000's). Now we know better. Also, it makes him upset and if there's one thing we hate at Standing Stone Games, it's upsetting Zehn. He's just so cute!

Wait, wrong quote...let me get back to you on that.

[Grinn]

Thanks for the info Torc.

Regarding Bluff skill level, my current L30 Pure Rogue Assassin, ED (all capped) Shadowdancer Active has a Bluff skill of 77. I could use Tomes of Skill to get it up 2 more points but I don't think that's the answer.
I had been prepping for my next ETR and was getting my Sagas out of the way when the update terminated my solo assassinate playstyle.

On EE A Lesson in Deception, every Bluff attempt failed. Popped a Greater Heroism and was still unable to successfully Bluff.
On EH the Bluff worked most of the time (only failing on a roll of 1).
As a comparison, on LE Slavers my Disable Device of 106 is required for the traps - a DD of 99 fails fairly often - I think this is reasonable for LE content. However, most players are not going to be getting their CHA up to those INT levels when playing Rogue/Assassin - so Bluff Levels will be considerably less.

Mob Distraction:
We used to be able to throw a weapon at the wall (no target selected - mouse targetting - red circle on wall beside or behind/above mobs) and the mobs would turn/move to the sound. I am not seeing this anymore (but honestly hadn't used it since U22).
Breaking boxes from a distance seems to vary - sometimes the mobs beside the boxes ignore it, other times mobs from the next room will come over with the ? over their head to have a look.

I'm hoping that some of your tweaks to the update will make mobs with ? viable assassination targets (especially the slow ones in the back) without pulling the entire group that has already passed ahead.
I tried a noisemaker trap around a corner and waited for the first mobs to path by before killing the one that hadn't made it to the corner yet - and still got the group's aggro - and the next room's aggro as well (door closed).

At any rate, I am looking forward to your updates to get us back to slipping shivs between their ribs with eager anticipation.

Thanks!

[Torvaldsberg]

Since this thread seems to be getting the attention, could anyone confirm whether or not 'Assassin's Trick' is supposed to generate aggro from an entire group? It didn't before the change, and was very useful for breaking up groups. Now, 'tricking' one MoB sends the entire group your way. If this is the way it was always meant to be, and it is now working correctly, so be it. If not, it definitely needs looked at.

[nokowi]

Could you quote me what I said that has you doubting any of the above, because outside of some edge cases were trying to run down, isn't the system doing all of the above?

Mobs being agro'd through walls, around corners, etc.

I believe your stated fine tuning adjustment was to alter agro radius.

Agro radius should set the maximum distance at which you do a detect calculation (how computationally intensive is the system), but should not be noticeable in game play if hide/move silent skills are being implemented after assassinate.

Put another way, every assassinate should be well within agro radius, and it should be the hide / move silently checks that determine what happens, not the agro radius you set. Setting an agro radius of infinity might break the game through lag, but shouldn't affect game play after an assassinate (why would these far away mobs detect the stealthy assassin?)

It's possible I just need a better definition of what you mean by agro radius. I guess I am using it as a "detection radius".

If agro radius is how far mobs communicate to other mobs, the secondary mobs within agro radius should require a detect of the player, again so that hide / move silently skills are useful.

Either way, you would need to explain how mobs are detecting stealthy players through walls. An assassin is going to be skilled enough to take out a mob when no one is looking and gently drop them to the ground. There is no way this act (in and of itself) should agro mobs from a separate room.

If a player sneaks up behind (within inches) and kills a mob without detection, how is a mob further away, in another room or around a corner (that also can't see the player) going to detect the assassin?

[nokowi]

Since this thread seems to be getting the attention, could anyone confirm whether or not 'Assassin's Trick' is supposed to generate aggro from an entire group? It didn't before the change, and was very useful for breaking up groups. Now, 'tricking' one MoB sends the entire group your way. If this is the way it was always meant to be, and it is now working correctly, so be it. If not, it definitely needs looked at.

I believe the change was intentional.

The prior implementation defeats the purpose of the new bluff mechanics.

Players have communicated this change to devs, so they should be fully aware of it.

[blerkington]

The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

It's good to get some more detailed feedback on these changes, so thank you for that.

Regarding your bluff formula, could you please express it more clearly. Specifically:

* Does 'creature's level' mean their CR? If not, what does it mean and how can we check it?

* Could you express your formula more clearly. For an elite quest, is the bluff requirement (CR+(1*QL))*1.5 or is it CR+(1.5*QL)?

I think your formula is producing scores that are too high for builds which aren't CHA based and fully geared (not just well-geared) to hit reliably. For example, in EE Cabal (a level 26 quest) the first two archers (CR 58 hobgoblins) seem to have a bluff requirement of 126.

It seems to be easier to get a reliable instakill DC than bluff now. And if we compare it to another skill based ability like fascinate, I suspect there could be a 70-80 point difference in the requirements for those two abilities. Does that seem reasonable?

With the current consequences for failure bluff won't be worth attempting to use unless it is reliable as a pulling technique, so this will just mean the skill no longer gets used for that purpose. It may still see some use in combat, but with the requirements so high now and similar effects available from class trees and equipment, I don't see why any non CHA build would bother.

You're essentially writing the skill out of the game on harder difficulties, which is a shame because that's where more nuanced play belongs.

Thanks.

[Saekee]

Since this thread seems to be getting the attention, could anyone confirm whether or not 'Assassin's Trick' is supposed to generate aggro from an entire group? It didn't before the change, and was very useful for breaking up groups. Now, 'tricking' one MoB sends the entire group your way. If this is the way it was always meant to be, and it is now working correctly, so be it. If not, it definitely needs looked at.

Trick needs to be modified to be like bluff or returned to its prior state. The problem with bluff pulling is that you can't follow
up with bluff-then-assassinate since bluff is on cooldown. Trick would allow this
fun maneuver.

I was using it to pull too.

[nokowi]

With the current consequences for failure bluff won't be worth attempting to use unless it is reliable as a pulling technique, so this will just mean the skill no longer gets used for that purpose. It may still see some use in combat, but with the requirements so high now and similar effects available from class trees and equipment, I don't see why any non CHA build would bother.
Thanks.

My issue with bluff is that it seems to be all or none design. The solution is a BUILD solution (obtain no fail) and not a play solution (the decision to use or not is based solely on no-fail build status).

Torc is trying to "adjust" the DC right now, but if you look at the history of DDO, you see things like a +30 jump in skills before and after Legendary shroud.

Even if it is perfectly balanced now, it will not be so in a short period of time, and the scaling across difficulty levels will likely be uneven (may not work well even with continual adjustments).


For bluff to be a workable design, a failed attempt really needs to have the chance to only pull some mobs within the detection/agro radius.

Here is an example, without any thought into the "correct" scaling, or that this is the best implementation of the above.

EE mob with a DC 120 bluff for auto-success
6 other mobs within detection radius (current failure = 7 mobs agro on player)
Player rolls a 100 bluff.

The number of mobs that respond on a fail is 1 + 6*[(120-100)/120]^(1/3) = 1+ 0.55(6) = 4 of the 7 mobs

60 of 120 = 6 of 7
70 of 120 = 5 of 7
80 of 120 = 5 of 7
90 of 120 = 5 of 7
100 of 120 = 4 of 7
110 of 120 = 4 of 7
113 of 120 = 3 of 7
115 of 120 = 3 of 7
118 of 120 = 3 of 7
119 of 120 = 2 of 7
120+ of 120 = 1 of 7

Note that a player with 100 bluff skill (vs DC 120 mob) could get anywhere from 1 to 4 mobs out of a pack of 7.


*** Extends the usable range of the skill
*** Helps to limit the impact of all-or-none design
*** The curve can be set to meet design goals for challenge consistent with play (rather than just design) choices

[nokowi]

Trick needs to be modified to be like bluff or returned to its prior state. The problem with bluff pulling is that you can't follow
up with bluff-then-assassinate since bluff is on cooldown. Trick would allow this
fun maneuver.

I was using it to pull too.

I disagree with this one.

A crafty player can still bluff-assassinate, it just involves the use of blinding traps, letting another player grab agro (outside of detection radius), etc.

Pull-assassinate from a safe range seems like the easy (but slow) button they are trying to remove.

[nokowi]

What's amusing about all this is that I could probably hit that 120 easily ... on a warlock.

I agree with all you said.

What would make sense is to make the ranks in a skill more important than the ability modifier.

Skill based builds should actually be good at skills if they are on their class list.

[BigErkyKid]

0>
1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.
.

Solo pulling and killing 1 mob at a time isn't powerful. Pulling 30+ until you are on red alert on a warlock is.

So a CR 60 LE mob, in a 33 LE quest is 93, multiplied by 1.5 is bluff check difficulty 125. My completionist/epic completionist is at 71, and could go up another 20 if I swap to slavers bluff + charisma skills LGS item/GH scroll. So ~90 max skill on a rogue, and you need 120.

Enhancements give +1-3.... I'm short 30...

What's amusing about all this is that I could probably hit that 120 easily ... on a warlock.

Ehem....ehem...

@Torc

I will give you cupcake if you send me a picture of the blackboard that turbine is using to keep track of maximum attainable DCs, stats, and DPS by class.

Lately it seems so completely out of touch with reality that I suspect that you have an office prankster that is changing the numbers at night just to mess with you.

Also:

This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

In what world is it so powerful? Have you stepped into any of the quests and raids in this game? Spoiler alert: They are packed with trash. Pulling one at a time is by far too slow and kinda useless in the majority of content. We have builds that can obliterate content without resorting to such extreme tactics.

Truth is, in SOME raids (read, LE tempest), pulling one a time could get you very far. It is absolutely the single place where this was a powerful method. Same goes for the deception turning bosses around, this was powerful in solo runs against some otherwise deadly thingies like the assassin in tempest.

But aside from that very small niche, have you checked any of the completions that people are getting in all kinds of content? Including LE Shroud aka baby reaper. They don't rely on bluff pulling at all.

Why you even felt the need to remove this mechanic and change aggro is beyond me. It is resulting in massive problems of alerts in quests, and it is punishing styles that were already not top of the feeding chain.

Hello Standing Stone, its DDO calling you. We may be playing a different game.

[Arienn]

3> Rogue traps haven't been touched in to long. /agreed. Can't give you a time frame on this yet, to busy with stealth/aggro stuff plus reaper and unannounced "stuff", but it's on my list.

I would love to see this, since there was a rogue pass a year or so ago that updated traps but didn't really make them usable. Mines and grenades do such low damage it's a waste to even bother with them. As for the magical traps there is a list of those that don't even work. They are sleep, deep slumber, slow, daze monster, blindness, hold person, cause fear, touch of idiocy, dispel magic, grease, and otto's resistable dance. Basically most of the really good ones.

5> So I'd love some more details here. Is this dungeon alert you have an issue with or monster perception in general even when no alert is present? The issue I've currently been investigating is outside the dungeon alert system, and it seems that sometimes monsters looking for me while I'm stealth-ed will sometimes get a position update on me that seems....illogically accurate. Seems to happen more often if I actually move far away to which is counter intuitive as well. I'll figure it out eventually but if you know a location that this happens 100% let me know.

If you want to see how messed up it can get, or just want a good place to test, try Bastion of Power.

[Qhualor]

In what world is it so powerful? Have you stepped into any of the quests and raids in this game? Spoiler alert: They are packed with trash. Pulling one at a time is by far too slow and kinda useless in the majority of content. We have builds that can obliterate content without resorting to such extreme tactics.

Truth is, in SOME raids (read, LE tempest), pulling one a time could get you very far. It is absolutely the single place where this was a powerful method. Same goes for the deception turning bosses around, this was powerful in solo runs against some otherwise deadly thingies like the assassin in tempest.

But aside from that very small niche, have you checked any of the completions that people are getting in all kinds of content? Including LE Shroud aka baby reaper. They don't rely on bluff pulling at all.

Why you even felt the need to remove this mechanic and change aggro is beyond me. It is resulting in massive problems of alerts in quests, and it is punishing styles that were already not top of the feeding chain.

Hello Standing Stone, its DDO calling you. We may be playing a different game.

solo pulling is used while soloing. this is used mainly for sneaky types of builds that don't want to fight groups of mobs at once or fight as few mobs as possible to progress through the quest. we aren't talking warlocks here. it may be slow, but it is pretty powerful when you can pull mobs one at a time and pick them off controlling the environment like that. this isn't something that is used in groups usually because players zerg quests and don't have time to wait.

[Saekee]

I disagree with this one.

A crafty player can still bluff-assassinate, it just involves the use of blinding traps, letting another player grab agro (outside of detection radius), etc.

those are not mutually exclusive. And--what if I craftily pull a mob by making it see me, or using noisemakers that reveal my position, then bluff-assassinate?

Pull-assassinate from a safe range seems like the easy (but slow) button they are trying to remove.

I agree and I am not sure why they are doing this. It is not like people are posting speed completions of pulling mobs, assassinating, etc. The stealth group remains the outlier. Bluff pulling is not a powerful skill. It is a cautious, patient skill.

[blerkington]

Bluff pulling is not a powerful skill. It is a cautious, patient skill.

I think the fear here is that we'll see embarrassingly early solo completions of some quests on 10 skulls from ranged builds with stealth and bluff.

Sneak + bluff + perch = win.

That is why SSG has decided bluff is such a powerful skill all of a sudden and its use needs to be so sharply curtailed. Pity about the rest of the game.

Thanks.

[Enoach]

0> That is the plan. There is still a bit to do here and we'll actively be making changes until we feel both systems are working well.

1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

2> All the stuff that exposed creatures to sneak attack damage should still work the same. If that's not the case please post or pm me an example of it failing to do so and we'll try to get it fixed ASAP.

3> Rogue traps haven't been touched in to long. /agreed. Can't give you a time frame on this yet, to busy with stealth/aggro stuff plus reaper and unannounced "stuff", but it's on my list.

4> We are currently testing monsters ignoring aggro share if their friend was "quick" killed by a stealth-ed player while their not facing them. It's looking good so far.

5> So I'd love some more details here. Is this dungeon alert you have an issue with or monster perception in general even when no alert is present? The issue I've currently been investigating is outside the dungeon alert system, and it seems that sometimes monsters looking for me while I'm stealth-ed will sometimes get a position update on me that seems....illogically accurate. Seems to happen more often if I actually move far away to which is counter intuitive as well. I'll figure it out eventually but if you know a location that this happens 100% let me know.

6> Assassinate was original designed for unaggro'd monsters. Still, looking at this from two situations....

A> Using assassinate in active combat with my party: Might be a big power boost? Shrug. Assassinate was originally meant to be a reward for sneaking up on a monster clean. Using it as a general combat skill is worth looking at but would have to be reviewed in the general combat dps track, so it's a bit muddier. Still worth a look.

B> Monsters are hunting me in stealth but aren't actively on me (red eye) or anyone else: This might be more what your hoping to see addressed and effects solo stealth play more. I think part of the problem is the bug, finger of god thing mentioned above?

Some General Comments:

-The aggro assist radius will be shrinking soon to cut down on some "interesting" monster chain reactions. Other steps may be taken, we'll see how it goes.

-We will be taking a look at stealth character game play and trying to find a balance. This will take time (sorry), but it's a complex system, and globally effects content. This will probably take a few iterations to nail it down over several patches, but we intent to steadily punch away at it. I hope to get the "clean kills on monsters if their friends not looking" in pretty soon. We got a lot more know how back on the team since the new company, so expect things to change, even if little by little.

- Please post feedback on bluff difficulty, what's you think a fair bluff score vs target is... hows the duration, etc.

-Torc

Feedback on bluff...

Base Level 21 Quest Spinner of Shadows on Elite
Both of these attempts were behind a pillar out of sight.
CR45 Mob - Based on Calc Bluff Resistance (45 + (1.5 * 23)) = 79 [Rounding Down]. Bluffed, pulled him around corner, paralyzed and killed him 99 + 8 = 107 (28 over)
CR49 Mob - Based on Calc Bluff Resistance (49 + (1.5 * 23)) = 83 [Rounding Down]. Failed Bluffed, pulled all. 99 + 14 = 113 (30 over). Now one difference is this mob was a Champion.

2nd Attempt
CR49 Mob - Based on Calc Bluff Resistance (49 + (1.5 * 23)) = 83 [Rounding Down]. Failed Bluffed, pulled all. 98 + 9 = 107 (24 over). Not a champion

As a not both CR49 mobs were Drow Priestess

Base Level 24 Quest A Cabal for One
CR49 Mob - Based on Calc Bluff Resistance (58 + (1.5 * 26)) = 97 [Rounding Down]. Failed Bluffed, pulled all. 99 + 8 = 107 (10 over). Not a Champion.


What doesn't make sense is that I was able to pull the CR 45 Drow in Spinner's and it isn't even my highest over.

Now at level 30 I'm not fully decked out having only a 99 Bluff (when I remember focusing chant) and 100 when I remember to use the Spider Mask Buff. But either I'm off on using CR to equal Creature Level or some other factor is coming in place as you can see my base bluff alone should have been enough in all of these situations to be able to pull based on the calculations above.

[blerkington]

Feedback on bluff...

Base Level 24 Quest A Cabal for One
CR49 Mob - Based on Calc Bluff Resistance (58 + (1.5 * 26)) = 97 [Rounding Down]. Failed Bluffed, pulled all. 99 + 8 = 107 (10 over). Not a Champion.

I think the formula they are using for elite is (CR+(1*QL))*1.5, which is the same as (CR+QL)*1.5, although it wasn't very clear in the initial post.

So for EE Cabal, the score needed could be 126. It's definitely north of 109 from my testing in that quest.

That might explain why your expected and actual results are not in agreement. Or maybe someone made an error in mathematically expressing what they wanted (still unclear) and the scores ended up too high instead.

Thanks.