Nerf FvS!

[Dagolar]

The D&D 3.5 rule books do not state that Favored Souls have a divine spark or fragment of a god within them.


That is incorrect. Here is the D&D rule book regarding Favored Souls:

A favored soul can be of any religion. The most common deity worshiped by human favored souls in civilized lands is Pelor, god of the sun. Among nonhuman races, favored souls most commonly worship the chief deity of their racial pantheon.
Unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity.

Another rulebook quotation that might help:

Favored souls cast divine spells by means of an innate connection rather than through laborious training and prayer, so their divine connection is natural rather than learned. These divine spellcasters know fewer spells and acquire powerful spells more slowly than clerics, but favored souls can cast spells more often, and they have no need to select and prepare them ahead of time.

Strange, that's not from the book I quoted from- and I did check before posting.
Mine stated it was innate, and didn't require any devotion to the god in question, etc as previously stated;

Might be because it was a Miniatures class first, and was remade for other books.

In any case, it's a class I've played with quite a bit in PnP, so at very least, I'm solid on the one source material.

[Dagolar]

No, in pen-and-paper, Druids (and Rangers) cast Divine spells.

That whole Epic Primal Sphere thingie is some tacked-on junk. And, back to Quells, I'm pretty sure Rangers were getting Quelled years ago, back when this thread started, even when FvS were not. (Druid wasn't in DDO yet then. Or any kind "Primal Sphere" stuff.)

There were some special rules for druid spells, since they were- and I forget the term, primal or natural- in nature.

It was all side-book mostly-flavor stuff in earlier editions, only 4th completely reworked it so that it was the premise of druidic power.

In any case, it's a completely moot argument at this point in the game's life-

While druids in other settings do indeed (typically) access primal/natural energies by forming a connection/drawing from nature (regardless of if you consider that divine or not), ALL druids in the forgotten realms setting HAVE to gain their nature powers/spells through a deity. It's a setting restriction, same as Eberron's lawful-good-only paladins (FR does not have that restriction, even if the PHB only lists the LG variant).

So at the point we accessed FR in the game, we can assuredly state that druids are, at least to some degree, divine.

..uh, what does that mean druids can do, again?
Oh, being quelled.

Hmm.
Hmmm.


That's tricky.
Quells hate deities, specifically, and create intercession via that hate.

Since we did get druids with MotU, we can say that they're FR-based.

Ergo, they should- certainly moreso than FvS- be quellable.

On the flip side, if we include Eberronian druids, the bond-to-nature ones are always directly in physical contact with their divine source so long as they're in contact with a natural source [eg, healthy soil].

Though if you view intercession on-effect as a desecration effect, then that would cause it to affect the nearby nature as well..

So even there we could make an argument for it.

So, yep, quellable druids.

Still against quellable FvS without special rationale, though :P

[Failedlegend]

snip

Well let's just agree to disagree where PnP is concerned, but back on topic in DDO (which is NOT shackled to the 3.5 rule set) Rangers and Druids are clearly gaining their powers from the primal power source hence the primal sphere and thus intercession should not effect them.

So at the point we accessed FR in the game, we can assuredly state that druids are, at least to some degree, divine.

The majority of PCs are from Eberron, just because we happen to visit the generic realms doesn't mean were suddenly subject to their inane rules.

There were some special rules for druid spells, since they were- and I forget the term, primal or natural- in nature.

It was all side-book mostly-flavor stuff in earlier editions, only 4th completely reworked it so that it was the premise of druidic power.

This is pretty much on the nose, druids, rangers and other similar classes have always been a bit wishy washy with multiple books having conflicting rules and the like but luckily when they made druids in 4e they made the rules/flavour much clearer.

[Angelic-council]

There were some special rules for druid spells, since they were- and I forget the term, primal or natural- in nature.

It was all side-book mostly-flavor stuff in earlier editions, only 4th completely reworked it so that it was the premise of druidic power.

In any case, it's a completely moot argument at this point in the game's life-

While druids in other settings do indeed (typically) access primal/natural energies by forming a connection/drawing from nature (regardless of if you consider that divine or not), ALL druids in the forgotten realms setting HAVE to gain their nature powers/spells through a deity. It's a setting restriction, same as Eberron's lawful-good-only paladins (FR does not have that restriction, even if the PHB only lists the LG variant).

So at the point we accessed FR in the game, we can assuredly state that druids are, at least to some degree, divine.

..uh, what does that mean druids can do, again?
Oh, being quelled.

Hmm.
Hmmm.


That's tricky.
Quells hate deities, specifically, and create intercession via that hate.

Since we did get druids with MotU, we can say that they're FR-based.

Ergo, they should- certainly moreso than FvS- be quellable.

On the flip side, if we include Eberronian druids, the bond-to-nature ones are always directly in physical contact with their divine source so long as they're in contact with a natural source [eg, healthy soil].

Though if you view intercession on-effect as a desecration effect, then that would cause it to affect the nearby nature as well..

So even there we could make an argument for it.

So, yep, quellable druids.

Still against quellable FvS without special rationale, though :P

Yeah, druids still have to learn the spells in order to use divine power, just like clerics. While FvS uses innate connection and cast them under the special condition.. with ease. It's just not something that can easily be interrupted. FvS are usually treated like an angel, and they have similar powers.

[SirValentine]

Well let's just agree to disagree where PnP is concerned, but back on topic in DDO (which is NOT shackled to the 3.5 rule set) Rangers and Druids are clearly gaining their powers from the primal power source hence the primal sphere and thus intercession should not effect them.

Nope, can't agree. What do you base your claim on that "clearly" (really?) in DDO Druid/Ranger gain their spells from "the primal power source"? I haven't seen any such thing. I see a "Primal Sphere" for Epic Destinies, but that has nothing in particular to do with where Druid/Ranger gain their spells. Also, go read what it says in the DDO Character Creation when you first click on Druid.

And, though FvS & Druid came later (hence this thread), someone at DDO made the decision that quells should, in fact, affect Rangers. Maybe they'll change that, but that's DDO as it stands.

[harry-pancreas]

Actually no it's considered Primal, like the Ranger/Druid Sphere is.

i've always heard druids are priests and never heard about "primal", except in DDO.
But might be 'cause i play old versions (AD&D 2nd ed.) mostly, i played 3.5 but not a lot.

in fact, historical druids were priests, sorta.

[harry-pancreas]

1) So called 4.5 is a myth it's just a series of splat books

2) I don't care what you looked at if you've never tried it your opinion is invalid.



Depending on how much you want the rules changed that sounds like a fussy DM but if you would rather go back to 3rd edition might I suggest looking into Pathfinder it fixed a bunch of the issues with 3rd edition and is actively supported. Alternatively try 5e...I have little to no experience with it (a couple play test sessions) but it can't hurt to check it out.

my group tried it, we rushed back to older eds in a second. It's garbage, is not D&D, they changed everything, made it garbage, now they have realized and that's why D&D next looks (for now) a bit more like classic D&D.
Seriously what the heck is a warlord (or whatever ****** class they tried to replace the bard with) ? is that the guy who sings and does damage ? gods, that sounds like saint seiya, not D&D.

Anyways, looks like they're "primal" in DDO, so quells should do nothing to our primal fellows

[Dagolar]

FvS are usually treated like an angel, and they have similar powers.

Aye, that's been my experience in pnp as well.

The majority of PCs are from Eberron, just because we happen to visit the generic realms doesn't mean were suddenly subject to their inane rules.

No, but one can assume at least some of the druids in the game come from FR, even if all the paladins come from Eberron only, simply due to the timing and association of the druid's release.

Assumptions aside, I did address both possibilities, so not really a major point of contention.

Rangers and Druids are clearly gaining their powers from the primal power source hence the primal sphere and thus intercession should not effect them.

As I noted, that depends on how Intercession actually affects the area. If it's an AOE desecration-type effect, it would affect the druid for a duration as well.
It's basically up to the devs on how they want to interpret it.

Otherwise, yeah, I agree with your premise, being that, by using the 4th edition primal sphere for primal-toons in DDO, the devs should thereby associate many of the pnp RP extensions of that concept to the toons in the sphere.

1) So called 4.5 is a myth it's just a series of splat books

And 1.5 and 2.5 were compilations of Dragon Magazine and splat-books (and in the case of 2.5, a serious rebalancing of the completely imbalanced core system).
That didn't stop them from being fun and useful...

Well, I'm picking at your association of 'myth' to .5 compilations/player-editions.
I don't play 4th Ed (though I HAVE, so don't go there :P) so I don't know anything about 4.5 specifically.


In any case, and speaking as someone who can't stand 4th ed, the 'which edition is better' is silly.

1-3rd editions were based on roleplaying and firm 'realistic-as-possible' mechanics. 3rd was based on deep, lengthy character build customization.
Meanwhile, 4th was designed to be a pick-up-and-play, fast paced, arcadey edition, reminiscent of the Tournament Modules of earlier editions.

>I< might not be able to stand 4th, but that's because it eschews certain roleplaying elements (example, the per-encounter system, regardless of encounter length, causes some serious conceptual issues at times) and lacks the deep, permanent character build customization of 3rd;
But it does do what it was designed to do, well.

Which, unfortunately, was not what most long-standing D&D players wanted it to do.

The collectible ability cards you earned for playing 4th edition at local hobby shops was especially cool, in terms of enhancing the style of play 4th edition promoted.
Of course, it turned D&D into M:tG, but, ignoring D&D foundations for a moment, it made for an interesting tabletop-CCG hybrid.

[Steelstar]

To alleviate confusion, as of U23 the following are susceptible to being blocked by Intercession, by design:

Cleric spells and spell-like abilities
Favored Soul spells and spell-like abilities
Paladin spells and spell-like abilities
Ranger spells and spell-like abilities
Druid spells and spell-like abilities
Divine Crusader spells and spell-like abilities
Unyielding Sentinel spells and spell-like abilities
Exalted Angel spells and spell-like abilities
Bladeforged racial spells and spell-like abilities
Morninglord racial spells and spell-like abilities

[Delsine]

There are goggles with Intercession Ward: Epic Glimpse of the Soul (True Seeing, Diplo+20, Bluff+20, Intercession Ward, Illusion Save+6, Enchantment Save+6, upgradeable for slots). ML27, BtA. The Illusion and Enchantment saves are resistance bonuses to your saves--not spell DC's of the spells you cast. In other words, they are useless because resistance +10/11/12 items exist. The slots are: 1st slot blue/yellow; 2nd slot green.

If you haven't seen the U23 loot yet--they have 2 possible upgrades, with 0 base augment slots. The upgrades add 1 slot each. The easier upgrade adds your choice of blue, yellow, and red (although only weapons can have red); the harder upgrade adds your choice of green, orange, and purple (although only green is allowed for non-weapons, since the others are part-red). They might bug it out, though, since it's the same upgrade system for it all. But basically, you wanted to know about intercession ward--and there it is. The item is sub-par (for a caster, it does basically nothing other than having possible slots; for a physical damager, it provides TS and 2 slots without the +stat that is possible on Field Optics), but it does have the fairly-unique intercession ward.

Xiadais,
Thanks for the info, I had not seen the new loot. I was just wondering if there was something to offset the change to Intercession. It doesn't have to be perfect for my characters, just something other than holding an Atonement great sword.

[mikarddo]

To alleviate confusion, as of U23 the following are susceptible to being blocked by Intercession, by design:

Cleric spells and spell-like abilities
Favored Soul spells and spell-like abilities
Paladin spells and spell-like abilities
Ranger spells and spell-like abilities
Druid spells and spell-like abilities
Divine Crusader spells and spell-like abilities
Unyielding Sentinel spells and spell-like abilities
Exalted Angel spells and spell-like abilities
Bladeforged racial spells and spell-like abilities

Why would Bladeforged Reconstruct SLA be susceptible? Thats an arcane spell. Most odd.

[Dagolar]

Yeah, druids still have to learn the spells in order to use divine power, just like clerics.

i've always heard druids are priests and never heard about "primal", except in DDO.

It's firmly used in, and pulled in to DDO from 4th edition.

In the earlier editions, [the word 'primal'] was mostly RP flavor reference;
As with how in 3rd edition clerics can choose to gain their powers from a divine energy source or the universe as a whole, or not even declare their source-
Druids in earlier editions (barring in the FR setting, and noting this is all from Dragon/Splat) gained power from a 'primal source', versus a deity, and thus benefited from certain differences.

The general effect was the same as gaining their power from a deity, but there were some special rules to it. EG, desecration wouldn't affect druidic casting, but blight would [unless you were NE (and using the splat rules), in which case, you were fueled by blight rather than healthy nature].
Of course, fairly sure both those spells were splat, as well- so in other words, if you didn't play with a lot of splat, you probably wouldn't have noticed any primal references in earlier editions.

And, of course, it was more a reference word, rather than a 'This is primal, everything falls under it' declaration: EG, 'Druids pull their power from primal energy sources, such as the untouched heart of ancient forests' versus 'Druids belong to the primal sphere, in which the following rules always apply (see splat books A, B14, C9, F6, etc)'.

:P

[Dagolar]

Why would Bladeforged Reconstruct SLA be susceptible? Thats an arcane spell. Most odd.

While the core Reconstruct spell is arcane, all Bladeforged abilities are considered divine, and associated with them being paladins by their original construction (ie, just like how repair spells are added to their paladin spell lists, their recon SLA builds off of that).

If the SLA for BF is holding to any arcane elements, that would be in error.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

Why would Bladeforged Reconstruct SLA be susceptible? Thats an arcane spell. Most odd.

There are many spells that are both Divine and Arcane. Even though Reconstruct is not usually available as a divine spell the SLA is being treated as being treated as such in this case. I don't see a real problem with this.

[Dawnsfire]

Why would Bladeforged Reconstruct SLA be susceptible? Thats an arcane spell. Most odd.

It makes sense to me. I have always assumed that the Reconstruct SLA was a gift from LOB (the BF's deity). If I perceive that correctly that gives it a divine origin regardless of how other characters might get a similar ability.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

To alleviate confusion, as of U23 the following are susceptible to being blocked by Intercession, by design:

Cleric spells and spell-like abilities
Favored Soul spells and spell-like abilities
Paladin spells and spell-like abilities
Ranger spells and spell-like abilities
Druid spells and spell-like abilities
Divine Crusader spells and spell-like abilities
Unyielding Sentinel spells and spell-like abilities
Exalted Angel spells and spell-like abilities
Bladeforged racial spells and spell-like abilities

PLEASE if you are taking all that away then take primal avatar spells and spell-like abilities, fury of the wild spells and spell-like abilities and Shiradi Champion spells and spell-like abilities

OR

give us back druid and ranger

Reasoning: clerics/fvs/pally's all are religious by nature (at level 1 they must take the religion feat) druids and rangers do not rely on religion, just because some druids/rangers are religious and some clerics/fvs/pally's are not religious does NOT mean that their power is derived elsewhere
US/EA/DC all are in the DIVINE sphere so it is obvious that their abilities are derived from godly sources (be it themselves becoming closer to divinity or however you wish to explain it)

The power of Religion =/= The power of Nature

[Scrabbler]

Ranger spells and spell-like abilities
Druid spells and spell-like abilities
Divine Crusader spells and spell-like abilities
Unyielding Sentinel spells and spell-like abilities
Exalted Angel spells and spell-like abilities

It does not make sense that Druid is blocked but Primal Avatar is immune.

To be consistent you can do one of three things:

• Make all Epic Destiny effects immune to Quell. (Anything epic)
• Make Druid and Ranger immune to Quell. (Heroic primal-style stuff)
• Make Primal Avatar vulnerable to Quell. That particularly includes everyone who twists Cocoon.

Note that although Shiradi and Fury are in the Primal epic sphere, they are not Divine in the sense that a Druid or Primal Avatar is.

[patang01]

To alleviate confusion, as of U23 the following are susceptible to being blocked by Intercession, by design:

Cleric spells and spell-like abilities
Favored Soul spells and spell-like abilities
Paladin spells and spell-like abilities
Ranger spells and spell-like abilities
Druid spells and spell-like abilities
Divine Crusader spells and spell-like abilities
Unyielding Sentinel spells and spell-like abilities
Exalted Angel spells and spell-like abilities
Bladeforged racial spells and spell-like abilities

Ranger and Druid makes no sense, those are natural spells, not divine. I understand the confusing with the dichotomy of just 2 different 'sources' of spell power, but I'd argue that nature spells would be more like spirit based, which is not divine - or are you saying that quells can disrupt spritual sources be it nature or divine? I thought the idea here was to disrupt the 'communication' between the divine caster and it's divinity. Maybe there need to be some clarification here. As far as I can tell Rangers and Druids are not gifted with a divine source of power from a deity. Not even when they're 'religious' per say.

[Scrabbler]

Ranger and Druid makes no sense, those are natural spells, not divine.

That is incorrect: by the game rules, Rangers and Druids are divine spellcasters. The phrase "natural spell" has no meaning (except that you might be Wildshaped into a Wolf while casting)

[Alternative]

We can perform mental gymnastics both ways on druids and rangers, and bladeforged, and I'm sure devs considered it both ways also. Why they chose one side of argument over another seems to me like a too good opportunity to nerf certain build even if a little bit.

Proof? Why does quell block bladeforgd but not the morninglord? because no one ever says morninglords are OP, yet both are clearly themed around a deity. What of halfling dragonmarks, that's healing too.

Same for druids/rangers, if they get blocked, why not all the primal destinies too? hit a monkcher but don't hit a poor melee running in fury.

I can adapt to anything, but it's still quite cheap and selective imo, especially the BF and morninglord.