EE-Capable Caster Clonk? + other qns

[Hawksong]

Hi guys. First post here on the Cleric forums. Currently I'm a level 17 Cleric, first life, 32-pt build using the "Necro Cleric for New Players" build that's listed here on the forums, and loving it. But I've run into a problem -- I don't intend to TR at 20, as I'd like to go on and experience Epic content first. Play to the finish, so to speak, before I enter this endless TR-cycle, should I choose to. And as I've heard, DC-reliant casting is next to useless in tougher EE content. So I wanted to try to come up with a universally EE-capable caster cleric that wasn't DC-reliant. I'm not entirely sure how to work it out. I figured out the build based on a 32-pt toon, as I still have my +20 LR and I intend to use it to prep for EE once my Cleric hits 20. Here's what I did:

RACE:

I was floating between Helf and Human for a while, and I'm still undecided. On the one hand, Human will allot a bonus feat, but on the other, Helf fighter dilly will unlock all martial proficiency. But will I really need martial proficiency if I want to play a pure caster? What will a feat do for me in exchange? Is there a no-brainer here?

SKILLS:
-Heal
-Spellcraft
-Jump
-Balance**

I dropped Concentration for Balance here because I assume that I'll have Quicken on 100% of the time in EE content (am I correct?) This lets me focus on Balance, which is always good to have. How does Balance work, though? Going in half a rank per point, will it reach a stage where it's useful in EE, or is it a waste of points altogether? What does it do, exactly? Does it influence my Reflex save?

FEATS:

I got about halfway into construction when I realized I just didn't know enough. What would a pure caster cleric even cast with if they wanted to avoid DCs in EE content? SLAs? I might be able to tickle. Negative Levels? Is that my only bet? Then why not take feats in Necromancy anyway and try to get my DCs high enough to affect at least early EE content? It's sort of like wasted potential if I try to throw feats at other things, no? Without taking some kind of spell focus feat or twf feat line, I'm gonna be throwing feats into inane places eventually, just because the options really aren't spectacular.

CLASS:

I was initially going for 20CLR, but I've heard that Evasion is lifesaving in EE content and 18CLR is still more than enough to heal anyway. Is 18CLR/2MNK my best bet? This unlocks Monk feats, does it not? What will this get me? Is there a better way to arrange my feat distribution?

Finally, (as though you weren't already tired of my questions), I have a few less-related ones:

-I have a Dread Admiral's Tricorne from Crystal Cove with +15 Concentration and +40 False Life. Is this worth holding onto? It fills my need for False Life before I even hit 20, just because it's ML12. When's the right time to get rid of it and what should I be aiming for to replace it with?

-I have Black Dragonplate Armor in my chest slot. Was this a mistake? Should I have gone with Blue? Is there any other option?

-What sort of weapon should I be using? I have a Wall of Wood for my Devotion and a Fetish for my Radiance, so I ended up getting a Potency dagger just to fill the last hole -- but as a Sovereign Host follower I have longsword proficiency, and for a while I found myself using a Vorpal longsword just to put the cherry on the DC Necro Cleric cake. I just don't know what to go for with regards to weapons. Is there perhaps a named weapon I should shoot for instead?

-What kind of clickies should I acquire to get the most out of this build? Are there any clickies that everyone should have? Where do I get them? What is the best way to stock up on SP-regen clickies (if they're even necessary)?

-Is Greensteel still a factor in Epic content, or has it been outgrown? Should I work on Greensteel items to add to my kit, or is this no longer necessary?

Tl;dr: How do I cast in EE?

All help/advice is welcome, and I apologize in advance for all of these questions!

[slarden]

A few thoughts.

- Evasion only works if you make your save so you will need to get a good enough reflex save to make your save most of the time. This is not an easy task since you haven't started working on your ED and cleric reflex saves are usually a weak spot. It definitely can be done, but you will need to consider your reflex save when you gear up. There used to be a helf dil option to increase saves based on cha - not sure if it still exists. You mention that as a race you are considering for your next life.
- You will be in an off-destiny frequently if you plan to work on twists, but if you start with exalted angel you willl be able to twist in the ED searing light SLA quickly.
- Eveningstar gear is good starter epic gear and you can collect coms at heroic levels. I would start with that. Start checking the AH and pick up any good weapons you can for leveling up. If you want to go centered you are probably limited mostly to staffs. There are other options, but that will be the easiest weapon to find.
- Concordant opp greensteel has decent sp regeneration. It may not be as good as the torc, but it is still quite good. Bauble can be farmed from weapon shipment but the drop rate is really low.
- Don't underestimate your value as a healer. I find many groups that want me to to focus on heals. Being a healer is a good entry point into EE content. Even self-healing toons often like healers because they can focus more on DPS.
- The SLAs from the destiny + the searing light SLA from the ED gives you alot of low sp dps options. Blade barrier can be good dps especially if you in a group where enemies are being kited around, but I would recommend not kiting enemies through blade barriers unless you are grouped with caster/ranged that are on the move anyhow. It will really frustrate melees.

[Atremus]

2 days late but here are my comments:

EE capable can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. To me it means that you contribute but to others it could mean that you solo. A cleric in EE will do fine up until red named or high HP monsters are encountered. Our spells just don't do enough damage when trying to chop away at 300k HP. So take friends and all is fine (IMO)

About race:

If you specialize as a caster, you will have about 20STR at the end (a more with Divine Might) and that will not be anywhere near enough to do meaningful damage. I would skip worrying about proficiency until you want to make a battle cleric. I would go Human for the bonus feat and extra skill point.

Skills:

Balance before Jump. You can carry a clicky for Jump and farm out some House C Jet boots for reaching ledges. My opinion of course, but balance is more important to me since I get up faster after being knocked over. Jump just gets me stuck on top of a pack of mobs and kills me

Pure/evasion:

Evasion is huge yes, but not 100% mandatory. There are pure FvS's and Cleric's that do the job just fine. When I was a pure FvS the only thing I didn't enjoy was damage mitigation from Arrows. Make a lot of Displacement clickies. Having more than enough is not a bad thing.


Gear:

GS HP is still a good item to make. So are the displacement clickies. The rest will just fall into place. Blue is better than black for a caster, but you aren't missing out.

Carry heal scrolls, raise scrolls, restoration scrolls, invisy clicky, jump clicky and the other basic pots.

How to EE:

Slowly! At first. Energy drain is a good spell, but keeping your party alive is also good.

[phalaeo]

I still have my +20 LR and I intend to use it to prep for EE once my Cleric hits 20. I was floating between Helf and Human for a while, and I'm still undecided.

+20 LR will not allow you to change your race or alignment. So you're stuck with whatever race you are until you TR.

Human will allot a bonus feat, but on the other, Helf fighter dilly will unlock all martial proficiency. But will I really need martial proficiency if I want to play a pure caster? What will a feat do for me in exchange? Is there a no-brainer here?

If you were to start from the beginning, I'd recommend Human for most Cleric builds, although I've ran Morninglord (Sun Elf), Halfling and HalfOrc Clerics as well. It depends on the build... just about the only race I would not use for a Cleric is Warforged. You will not need Martial proficiency if you plan on focusing on casting. What will a feat do for you in exchange? Lots. It's not just the extra feat, it's the extra skill point you get over other races, and the Human enhancements that draw people to humans. An extra feat means another Spell Focus, another Metamagic, possibly Mental Toughness...

SKILLS:
-Heal
-Spellcraft
-Jump
-Balance**
I dropped Concentration for Balance here because I assume that I'll have Quicken on 100% of the time in EE content (am I correct?) This lets me focus on Balance, which is always good to have. How does Balance work, though? Going in half a rank per point, will it reach a stage where it's useful in EE, or is it a waste of points altogether? What does it do, exactly? Does it influence my Reflex save?

This is just my opinion, and everyone plays differently. I do not drop concentration- I max it out. Remember, you need concentration if you want to use Heal/Rez scrolls. You'll want quicken on some spells, but fast casting spells like Blade Barrier just don't need it. In EE content, I quicken my cures/heals, and some slow-casting spells. Most other Epic content, the only thing I have quickened is the Positive Energy Burst from Radiant Servant, my SLAs, and single target heal. I do not put points into Heal. On my Clerics, I generally max Concentration, and distribute the rest of the points into Balance (second priority), UMD, Spellcraft, and some into Jump.

Balance affects how quickly you get up when you're knocked on your rear. It does not influence your Reflex save, and does not prevent knockdown/trip/cometfall, etc. Again, it's a playstyle thing- a friend of mine doesn't ever put points into Balance on his FvS. I insist on it on my characters.

FEATS:

I got about halfway into construction when I realized I just didn't know enough. What would a pure caster cleric even cast with if they wanted to avoid DCs in EE content? SLAs? I might be able to tickle. Negative Levels? Is that my only bet? Then why not take feats in Necromancy anyway and try to get my DCs high enough to affect at least early EE content? It's sort of like wasted potential if I try to throw feats at other things, no? Without taking some kind of spell focus feat or twf feat line, I'm gonna be throwing feats into inane places eventually, just because the options really aren't spectacular.

It's not about avoiding DCs, it's about realizing that there is content to use them in, and content where it's more efficient to use damage spells. My main is a DC/Light specced caster Clonk, and I pay more attention to healing in EE content than to casting. It depends... most people I know do not solely run EE. And most people I know who run a lot of EE have a ton of past life feats boosting their DCs and Spell Pen. I tried a Necro specced Cleric, but with the new enhancements and EDs, I've found it's more efficient and fun to run as a Light Specced caster. Take Spell Focus feats, not TWF.

I was initially going for 20CLR, but I've heard that Evasion is lifesaving in EE content and 18CLR is still more than enough to heal anyway. Is 18CLR/2MNK my best bet? This unlocks Monk feats, does it not? What will this get me? Is there a better way to arrange my feat distribution?

Evasion is only as good as your Reflex save, which comes from DEX (unless you're a high INT char and take Insightful Reflexes). I've run both ways, but as mentioned, my main is an 18/2 Cleric/Monk. She's Halfling for the bonuses to DEX and saves, although Human or Helf are fine choices. It's a tough call.... you give up the capstone, but you pick up a lot of bonuses. Taking 2 levels of Monk will give you two Monk Feats in addition to what you would already get. What will that get you? I'd look at Toughness, Deflect Arrows, or possibly Lightning Reflexes. Take Level 1 as a Cleric, so you have access to metamagic feats. Monk for level 2, Cleric from 3 on, and take the second Monk level around Level 12. Monk levels will also grant you access to Monk Stances- I run in Ocean Stance, which gives a bonus to saves and +2 WIS.

-I have a Dread Admiral's Tricorne from Crystal Cove with +15 Concentration and +40 False Life. Is this worth holding onto? It fills my need for False Life before I even hit 20, just because it's ML12. When's the right time to get rid of it and what should I be aiming for to replace it with?

-I have Black Dragonplate Armor in my chest slot. Was this a mistake? Should I have gone with Blue? Is there any other option?

-What sort of weapon should I be using? I have a Wall of Wood for my Devotion and a Fetish for my Radiance, so I ended up getting a Potency dagger just to fill the last hole -- but as a Sovereign Host follower I have longsword proficiency, and for a while I found myself using a Vorpal longsword just to put the cherry on the DC Necro Cleric cake. I just don't know what to go for with regards to weapons. Is there perhaps a named weapon I should shoot for instead?

-What kind of clickies should I acquire to get the most out of this build? Are there any clickies that everyone should have? Where do I get them? What is the best way to stock up on SP-regen clickies (if they're even necessary)?

-Is Greensteel still a factor in Epic content, or has it been outgrown? Should I work on Greensteel items to add to my kit, or is this no longer necessary?

- I wear Minos Legens from 11-23, and replace it with a Helm of the Blue Dragon (with +3 Insightful WIS).

- Yes, Black is pretty useless on a caster character. Blue is ok, but there are several options depending on whether you go pure or Clonk. Any character with Monk levels needs to be in Robes/Outfits to remain centered and keep their evasion. For Epic Levels (depending on the level) I go with Spidersilk Robes, Spiderspun Caparison, Blue Dragonscale (for the set bonus, mostly). Full Plate options are different.

- Weapons will be caster sticks. Randomly generated ones, Twilight, possibly Greensteel Healing Amp if you want. Later on, you'll want the crafted weapons from Thunderholme. Characters with Monk levels become uncentered if they wield anything other than Kamas, Handwraps, or Quarterstaves. I am currently using Twilight (slotted with Radiance), and my Devotion is from Gloves of Eternity. You are really not going to want to melee many mobs in EE unless you're specifically building for it. Also.... Cleric/Monks? No shields. They uncenter you.

- Clickies. You can never go wrong with Greensteel Haste and Displacement clickies. Best way to stock up on SP regen items is to farm them. Most useful is the Mysterious Bauble, although I carry a Spell Storing Ring and Twisted Talisman as well.

- Greensteel items are still useful. I keep my SP/CHA skills item equipped from min level to cap. HP items are more situational- I find them harder to slot in. Greensteel weapons? Really subpar in EE content.

I apologize in advance for all of these questions!

No problem! If you're on Argo, send Pallai some mail- I can help hook you up with greensteel mats to make clickies and maybe some other stuff.

[phalaeo]

Oh... stats.

This is roughly what I would do for a 32 pt:

Human Cleric (pure)
STR 10
DEX 8
CON 15
INT 12
WIS 18
CHA 10

Human Cleric18/Monk2
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 8

Halfling Cleric 18/Monk2
I recommend TRing to get at least 34 points and optimally 36 for this. Stats can be spread a little thin on a 32 point build.

[jaegarnel]

A caster cleric who specs for it can be a very good light-based nuker, although you'll lack good AoE options.

Playing in the highest EEs as a first life cleric, I found DC casting very hard to make work from Gianthold on. It'll even be impossible until you get better gear and max Magister for the DC twist.

But you can still contribute perfectly well if you use the light-based enhancements in divine disciple for max light spellpower and crit chance, plus the spells and SLAs. Sunburst is an excellent CC in EE since it'll blind everything pretty much all the time, as well as insta-kill shadows. Sun bolt, sunbeam and avenging light give very good low sp single target dps.

I would recommend staying pure. Yes, evasion is very useful (though overrated in EE imo, melee mobs are far more dangerous than casters in there), but you won't evade anything without a reflex save at least in the 50s. And getting reflex saves that high with 18 levels of cleric is no small task.
OTOH, the divine disciple capstone is actually quite useful, and losing 2 caster levels for spells like sunbeam or the SLA from Exalted Angel hurts.

As for your last questions:
-your cove hat is definitely worth keeping if you feel like you might ever TR sometime. On a cleric I'd look to get a blue dragon helm (EH or EE version, not much difference between the 2) with +3 insightful wisdom.

-blue dragon armor is much better than black for divine casters, yes. But it doesn't really matter since neither are good for epics. You want a flawless blue dragonscale armor from epic tor instead. Failing that, a heavy or medium armor from MotU is much easier to get and still quite useful.
And eventually you'll want to upgrade to the shadow armor from the new raids, but that's sometime down the line

-a lootgen weapon with radiance and radiance lore is probably your best bet for light nuking. Twilight can be nice, but is nowhere near as good for divines as for arcanes. It's only useful if you get an appropriate trinket and upgrade it for the set bonus.
If you ever manage to get decent enough DCs for EE, an alchemical shield with +2 wisdom would be great, but that's really hard to make now. And again, eventually you'll want 2 caster sticks from the new raids.

-personally, I only use a greater heroism clicky from the Devils of Shavarath pack, and 2 GS displacement clickies from Shroud. There are several SP clickies in the game, the best one to get (ignoring the epic ring of spell storing here, it's more mythical than anything) is the mysterious bauble from Weapons Shipment, which works as a free major sp pot per shrine. You can also get the twisted talisman from the Red Fens pack, and there is another sp clicky in the Abbot raid as well.
You don't really need sp clickies if you play in decent groups however. My cleric has some, but rarely uses them or sp pots outside of soloing EEs or raids.

-yes GS is still useful, especially if you plan on TRing at some point. But even at cap, it's hard to say no to an additional 45 hp and 150 sp, not to mention the other stuff you can put on those items. Now, if you ever get tons of great endgame gear, you might find yourself swapping out your GS, but I still haven't and I have most of the gear I want. The sp item is just used as a switch item for basically free buffing, so GS only takes one gear slot (which in my case used to be goggles, but is now the belt slot).

[SirValentine]

-blue dragon armor is much better than black for divine casters, yes. But it doesn't really matter since neither are good for epics. You want a flawless blue dragonscale armor from epic tor instead. Failing that, a heavy or medium armor from MotU is much easier to get and still quite useful.
And eventually you'll want to upgrade to the shadow armor from the new raids, but that's sometime down the line

I'm personally a fan of Leaves of the Forest (EH or EE versions), though I'm planning on switching to the new shadow armor at some point.

-a lootgen weapon with radiance and radiance lore is probably your best bet for light nuking.

There are also several named item, non-weapon, options to cover this. At level 19, the Heroic Sage's Skullcap. At level 27, your choice of the Epic Sage's Skullcap or the Lantern Ring.

[jaegarnel]

I'm personally a fan of Leaves of the Forest (EH or EE versions), though I'm planning on switching to the new shadow armor at some point.

Yes leaves of the forest is very nice too. I only got one after I had already gotten the blue dragon set, so I decided to keep it for trading/alts, but it's definitely among the best epic armors for a caster divine, and probably easier to get than the blue dragon.

There are also several named item, non-weapon, options to cover this. At level 19, the Heroic Sage's Skullcap. At level 27, your choice of the Epic Sage's Skullcap or the Lantern Ring.

I would definitely advise you to get a lantern ring. The skullcap wasn't really an option for me since that slot is used by my blue dragon helm, but I was actually pleasantly surprised by the ring. The extra light damage procs on every single target spell (not on AoEs except on the mob you had targetted though) and is affected by your radiance spellpower and crit chance.
It makes low sp spells like avenging light and the dd SLAs much better imo.

[phalaeo]

I would recommend staying pure. Yes, evasion is very useful (though overrated in EE imo, melee mobs are far more dangerous than casters in there), but you won't evade anything without a reflex save at least in the 50s. And getting reflex saves that high with 18 levels of cleric is no small task.
OTOH, the divine disciple capstone is actually quite useful, and losing 2 caster levels for spells like sunbeam or the SLA from Exalted Angel hurts.

I just wanted to note that it's not impossible. Pallai has a reflex of 70. Yes, she has a +4 DEX tome, but the rest is just gear and twists. GH and ship buffs. No Yugo pots, no store pots.

[Wipey]

Nice saves.
What are your DCs with that setup.

[phalaeo2]

Nice saves.
What are your DCs with that setup.

Evocation/light damage specced... Evo DCs currently 59. I've only got one PL:Sorc, and have yet to get the DC bonus from a Thunderholme weapon.

I'm a slow TR'er.

[phalaeo]

Oops, and these stupid forums really like to default me to another account.

[Wipey]

Cool, thank you. Shadow dragon breath is really the worst nightmare for my cleric, but I would still choose pure until someone shows me 70 evo clonk. And not just on forums

[phalaeo2]

A guildie is at...72 Evo, I think?

I'm trying to figure out a few things to get it higher. Just got my Thunderholme +6 Evo crafted tonight, which takes me to 62.

62
+2 PL: Sorc
+2 Draconic Evo twist
+3 New Exalted Angel DC innate (I think this is correct)
Acute Instincts twist gives +2 WIS while raged
+6 tome (adds +1 to my WIS)
+ 1 Wisdom from Litany
71 Evo DC

That's without cookies or store pots.

[phalaeo]

Cool, thank you. Shadow dragon breath is really the worst nightmare for my cleric, but I would still choose pure until someone shows me 70 evo clonk. And not just on forums

I'm bouncing back and forth. I've got a 36 pt. Human Caster Cleric who's at level 27. I took her into a hard FoT tonight, and she died twice. I really like the options they're giving pure nowadays (Word of Balance is the bomb!), but I dig the survivability my Clonk has.

[jaegarnel]

I'm bouncing back and forth. I've got a 36 pt. Human Caster Cleric who's at level 27. I took her into a hard FoT tonight, and she died twice. I really like the options they're giving pure nowadays (Word of Balance is the bomb!), but I dig the survivability my Clonk has.

My main is a pure cleric and she hasn't died in EH FoT in a long time. For that matter, she hasn't died to evadeable effects other than Miior's lightning aura and the shadow/fire dragon breath in a while.
Elemental absorption works fine to mitigate elemental damage (except Miior, those aura stacks are way too much damage even with energy sheath and ring of the djinn). So my only other problem is the shadow dragon breath, but with careful positioning it can be avoided most of the time.

I tried to use a negative energy absorption item like death's locket or the silver flame necklace, but those didn't work on the negative damage done by the shadow dragon for some reason...

[phalaeo]

My main is a pure cleric and she hasn't died in EH FoT in a long time. For that matter, she hasn't died to evadeable effects other than Miior's lightning aura and the shadow/fire dragon breath in a while.
Elemental absorption works fine to mitigate elemental damage (except Miior, those aura stacks are way too much damage even with energy sheath and ring of the djinn). So my only other problem is the shadow dragon breath, but with careful positioning it can be avoided most of the time.

I tried to use a negative energy absorption item like death's locket or the silver flame necklace, but those didn't work on the negative damage done by the shadow dragon for some reason...

Oh, I'm sure it's completely possible. The character I'm referring to is not one of my mains, and she hasn't spent much time in Epics up until now. I'm used to running around on a geared out Clonk with evasion. I haven't run a pure Cleric in years, so I just need to play smarter. Also, I had completely forgotten that I had a Ring of the Djinn and a Violet Prismatic Cloak in her inventory, but didn't equip it for some stupid reason.

My party volun-told me that I was getting Miior's aggro on my Clonk in a recent run because I had the highest reflex save in the party. And proceeded to spam Meteor Swarms and Magic Missiles at her. Stupid party. Then, the Sorc went in close to get off an Energy Burst and got 30 stacks in about two seconds. That was awesome.

[phalaeo]

Cool, thank you. Shadow dragon breath is really the worst nightmare for my cleric, but I would still choose pure until someone shows me 70 evo clonk. And not just on forums

Well, best I can do is just on the forums.
73 with tunnel vision, alchemical pot and store pot. But you just wanted 70, and I'm not spending TP on a store pot.

[Wipey]

Awesome, I like such pictures much more than "paper theories".
But you have all twists occupied to get that DC now no ? What is the reflex, prr and dodge if I may ask ?
Anyway, super cool, it's like seeing Tasmanian Tiger, noone play these anymore, so .. /sticking with DCs highfive !

And for the sake of Evo-peen

77 with with alch pot or two hander ( wizzy can have THE PLUNGER™ but not the hjealzor, that's my one powergaming compromise-aesthetics vs 1 dc), store pot and Acute Instincts.
78 completionist, 79 6 tome ( I know right ) + Litany, 81 bard ?

8 dodge and cleric quality reflex lol ( as I said EE Fot or Shadow trakon breath is THE Nemesis, doesn't die anywhere else ... much ). 60 Necro ( gets casters with Energy drain on EE and whole groups of undead in EH ) and 63 Conjuration ( non meta for some cc in a pinch against lower reflex or high spell pen targets )

[Candela90]

Well I always wonder what would be better evo clonk or necro clonk. If I build for both Ill end up with around 65 DC on both but I guess thats not enough anymore.
Evo is easier to achieve but honestly has only 1 good spell - Implosion
Necro on the other hand - Slay Living, Destruction, Undead to Dead
But evo also has lots of damaging spells too - but dmg isnt really that good in EEs. Im TRing into clonk soon and still don't know what to do and with which school to go.
Do you guys take spell pen feats? I have 3xwizz PL and 3x FvS PL and wonder if I really need them.