A few thoughts after reading...

[maddmatt70]

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

I am not sure all these complaints about AP costs are wholey warranted. Builds are about making choices. I should not be able to have everything I want on a specific build I should have to debate between different action points thus giving us multiple build options. As it is somebody could get everything in one tree and still have enough for an entire racial tree approximatly. That does not seem too far off from where DDO should be. I would only like a little bit, but not a ton of cheaper AP then there is now.

[Drona]

I am not sure all these complaints about AP costs are wholey warranted. Builds are about making choices. I should not be able to have everything I want on a specific build I should have to debate between different action points thus giving us multiple build options. As it is somebody could get everything in one tree and still have enough for an entire racial tree approximatly. That does not seem too far off from where DDO should be. I would only like a little bit, but not a ton of cheaper AP then there is now.

This.

While a reduction of AP is some cases are warranted, please dont make it all too easy. I have had enough with ""EE are too easy" threads.

[Postumus]

This.

While a reduction of AP is some cases are warranted, please dont make it all too easy. I have had enough with ""EE are too easy" threads.

Exactly.

[Jay203]

There are already changes made from feedback. Will you see them in Thursday's build? Hrm. Right now the plan is for the next group of classes, so you wouldn't see any fixes or tweaks to the classes from this week...but I want to have a discussion with dev about opening the floodgates, but we still ask for focused feedback on specific classes...or something like that. Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

give each group their time
then open up all of them for a while

just make sure the new system isn't released on live until it's actually well polished

[dlsidhe]

Please, some dev needs to address this! I made a post on this in one of Squeak's threads which has gotten nothing but agreement in response. Nobody was asking for the enhancement system to be changed and rebuilt from the ground up, just a better UI and the addition of the missing/incomplete PrEs. The core functionality of the live system, underneath the GUI, is much more straightforward and intuitive and also provides far greater build freedom than this new thing you've dreamed up, which nobody at all was even asking for!

Just to play devil's advocate -

The current enhancement system does little to take advantage of post U15 changes to melee and defense functionality. Moreover, it may have been a case that to update the UI, the whole system had to be rebuilt. If you look at the available PrEs (that aren't cleric, because those need real work, though apparently some people are finding that they aren't totally broken), the ones that already existed have either been vastly enhanced (AA, Tempest), redone to incorporate U15 (Stalwart adding PRR and dodge bonuses), or are attempts at enhancements/incorporation U15 functionality (Kensei, which apparently is supposed to have haste boost, and needs the tactics/seeker bumped back up to live levels).

I recall back around U9, when Divine Avenger was supposed to be released, there was an issue that it simply would not function correctly. My guess is that similar issues are connected to the decision to rebuild from the ground up, that there's something in the backend that made coding new enhancements a nightmare under the old system. Think of it this way - if you had the option of coding under an existing system, or building an entirely new system, when would you choose the latter? Only if it was less work in the long run than coding under the new system, is what I'd go with. The way MajMal is talking, QA will meet with the devs, give them the notes, and changes will start going in immediately - that means the system is easier to code. The ETA on turn-around from Alpha 1 - Focused Feedback to Alpha 2 - Free-For-All Multiclass Nightmare is roughly a month. A month to overhaul, at minimum from what we've seen -

8 Racial Trees
2 Paladin Trees
3 Monk Trees
2 Fighter Trees
3 Ranger Trees
3 (probably) Rogue Trees
2 Artificer Trees
2 Druid Trees
2 Sorc Trees
2 Wizard Trees (if Wild Mage isn't in yet)
2 Cleric Trees
2 FvS Trees
2 Barbarian Trees

...plus any racial prestige trees.

That's 35 enhancement trees at minimum. One-per-day, roughly, from Alpha 1 to Alpha 2.

Consider that, until now, we've gotten new PrEs at the rate of one or two per year, usually with a whole new class. The last new PrE for an existing class that I remember was back in U9, with Savants and Angels of Vengeance.

In summary, while what you suggested may sound simpler, it may - on a technical side - have been a much larger undertaking to move the current system to a new UI and code new PrEs. So, build a new system, incorporate new mechanics from U15, and then give it a looooong preview process to tweak for balance. If it's easier to code, then it's easier to tweak. If the reason changes weren't made to fix existing PrE issues was simply that the system was not friendly to modification, that would explain a lot.

[Ape_Man]

I am not sure all these complaints about AP costs are wholey warranted. Builds are about making choices. I should not be able to have everything I want on a specific build I should have to debate between different action points thus giving us multiple build options. As it is somebody could get everything in one tree and still have enough for an entire racial tree approximatly. That does not seem too far off from where DDO should be. I would only like a little bit, but not a ton of cheaper AP then there is now.

I don't mind the good stuff being expensive. I mind being forced to buy pure garbage to buy essentials.

The 22 AP in human for third tier of healing amp is ridiculous.

[maddmatt70]

I don't mind the good stuff being expensive. I mind being forced to buy pure garbage to buy essentials.

The 22 AP in human for third tier of healing amp is ridiculous.

So then do not pick up the third tier of healing amp if you find it too expensive. Healing amp has gotten really really powerful in the current game and has hurt some of the non human/h-elf race's viability. I think that the third tier of healing amp should be difficult to get as it is for humans and half-elves in this update. Exalted angel and cocoon have really boosted the power of amp.

[EllisDee37]

Healing amp has gotten really really powerful in the current game and has hurt some of the non human/h-elf race's viability.

So the answer is to hurt the viability of everyone. Brilliant!

[bhgiant]

Multiclassing at this point will just complicate things at this point, imo. Suggestion: Wait until the phase when you release all the classes onto Lamm at once. That would be a good time, I think.

Agreed. Focused discussion is needed to flesh out the classes separately. I personally would never have looked at the new ranger or artificer section if you had released everything at the same time. I would be too busy looking at Rogue.

This is a good plan devs. Take it slow, keep it controlled, take your time. Don't let us pressure you into rushing things just because we're eager.

[Jay203]

So the answer is to hurt the viability of everyone. Brilliant!

hey, only wf get to make that kind of sarcastic remarks regarding healing amp!

[jakeelala]

Agreed. Focused discussion is needed to flesh out the classes separately. I personally would never have looked at the new ranger or artificer section if you had released everything at the same time. I would be too busy looking at Rogue.

This is a good plan devs. Take it slow, keep it controlled, take your time. Don't let us pressure you into rushing things just because we're eager.

Yeah, right. The DEVS are totally at our mercy...I bet Turbine just sighed a collective sigh of relief.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I was concerned at first too, but after getting in and tinkering with it, I am less concerned, more excited, and definitely have something to say about what I think it needs to be awesomer.

If only my Llama client was able to connect to the server...

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Just to play devil's advocate -

The current enhancement system does little to take advantage of post U15 changes to melee and defense functionality. Moreover, it may have been a case that to update the UI, the whole system had to be rebuilt. If you look at the available PrEs (that aren't cleric, because those need real work, though apparently some people are finding that they aren't totally broken), the ones that already existed have either been vastly enhanced (AA, Tempest), redone to incorporate U15 (Stalwart adding PRR and dodge bonuses), or are attempts at enhancements/incorporation U15 functionality (Kensei, which apparently is supposed to have haste boost, and needs the tactics/seeker bumped back up to live levels).

I recall back around U9, when Divine Avenger was supposed to be released, there was an issue that it simply would not function correctly. My guess is that similar issues are connected to the decision to rebuild from the ground up, that there's something in the backend that made coding new enhancements a nightmare under the old system. Think of it this way - if you had the option of coding under an existing system, or building an entirely new system, when would you choose the latter? Only if it was less work in the long run than coding under the new system, is what I'd go with. The way MajMal is talking, QA will meet with the devs, give them the notes, and changes will start going in immediately - that means the system is easier to code. The ETA on turn-around from Alpha 1 - Focused Feedback to Alpha 2 - Free-For-All Multiclass Nightmare is roughly a month. A month to overhaul, at minimum from what we've seen -

8 Racial Trees
2 Paladin Trees
3 Monk Trees
2 Fighter Trees
3 Ranger Trees
3 (probably) Rogue Trees
2 Artificer Trees
2 Druid Trees
2 Sorc Trees
2 Wizard Trees (if Wild Mage isn't in yet)
2 Cleric Trees
2 FvS Trees
2 Barbarian Trees

...plus any racial prestige trees.

That's 35 enhancement trees at minimum. One-per-day, roughly, from Alpha 1 to Alpha 2.

Consider that, until now, we've gotten new PrEs at the rate of one or two per year, usually with a whole new class. The last new PrE for an existing class that I remember was back in U9, with Savants and Angels of Vengeance.

In summary, while what you suggested may sound simpler, it may - on a technical side - have been a much larger undertaking to move the current system to a new UI and code new PrEs. So, build a new system, incorporate new mechanics from U15, and then give it a looooong preview process to tweak for balance. If it's easier to code, then it's easier to tweak. If the reason changes weren't made to fix existing PrE issues was simply that the system was not friendly to modification, that would explain a lot.

Possible, but all of that is complete speculation since we have never actually been told a darn thing about why the high level mechanics of the enhancement system are changing.

And when I say keep the old system but update the UI, I mean keep the rules about how and which enhancements are selected. The details about how specific enhancements work can and should be updated as required to reflect the present state of the game, and should have no bearing on overall rules for which enhancements you are allowed to select. The only functional benefit to the new system that I can see is that it allows you to select pieces from multiple PREs for the same class, but to me gaining that ability is not worth breaking and killing a lot of builds that don't deserve it by forcing arbitrary new restrictions on how enhancements can be chosen.

[Fecerak]

I mean, the AP costs aren't too crazy in all of the trees, but some are just insane like:
- Stalwart Defender (mainly the stance upgrades)
- Tempest
- Sacred Defender (mainly the stance upgrades)

And then there are a few that just don't give enough *stuff* anymore, but would be way too expensive if they gave as much *stuff* as they should, such as:
- Kensei (haste boost, more tactics DCs, more boosts, more seeker, etc.)
- Arcane Archer (basically flooded with stances of which you can use 1, but are supposed to spend 20 ap on?)
- Arcanotech (needs more stuff that actually is desirable for all artificers)

I agree that AP cost overall shouldn't be lowered extremely much, but as it is right now, it should be lowered a bit.
Overall perhaps somewhere around 1/3rd of the 2 AP enhancements should be 1 AP each (2 ap per tier of stealthy/faster sneaking in DWS???)

The main issue as it is is how you cannot access say tier 2 or tier 3 without using a lot of points in the tree - I'm thinking you should be able to access up to tier 3 with 0 points spent in that tree if you have spent enough points overall, but require you to actually invest a lot to grab the tier 4/5 abilities.

[Flavilandile]

Right this. I don't hate the system I hate the UI. Fighting the UI to get what I want is just...annoying. It is the first thing I mentioned when I started working on this game.
I won't speak on why it is not a 1:1 correlation to the old system...which would have made QA very happy for multiple reasons, I'll toss that one to the devs to answer.

You know that if you look at it closely the old system is tree based too ?

Well ok it's a reverse tree, you have a root ( take Radiant Servant 2 ) that spawns a tree of requirements, you could have done it that way, it's dead easy, that's how Civilization has been doing the Technology tree for Ages )
And Done that way, no need to redo anything. it's just an UI change. Things that were presented in a clunky UI gets presented in a tree fashion, and you can even add something like : Select Radiant Servant II, you get a pop up that ask you if you wish to go there... and then spend the points in the tree to reach that. ( up to the number of points you have... and retain the choice you made so that when an AP is earned, it's automatically spent in the relevant tree )

Quoting Myself and The QA Kobold for obvious reason, I went the whole way and as MajMal wants challenges I'm going to give him one :

Why couldn't you keep the current Enhancements but put them in a tree form ? As I said on Page 3 of MadFloyd Let's Talk thread, it's already in a tree form, even if said tree is not obvious. Anyway to prove my point I graphically made the exercise for Radiant Servant. ( original Ascii version is here : http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=245 )



At the bottom you have from Left to Right : Improved Healing, Divine Vitality, Life Magic, Prayer of Life.

Prayer of Incredible life is at level 1.
Stat Bonus ( Charisma ) is at Level 3

At top from Left to Right : Improved Turning, Radiant Servant I, Radiant Servant II.

It's not THAT difficult to make a tree out of what we already have.

As you can see, everything is preserved ( up to and including the 4th level for each enhancements that have it )

[shadereaper33]

My take on the general state of the current enhancement trees on lamma is that there are far too many enhancements that cost 2 ap, and the ap cost to access the higher tiers is far and away too high. Having to spend half of my AP in one tree just to be able to access the top row of enhancements, and then having to spend 8-12 ap on enhancements just on that row, doesn't leave very much to be spent elsewhere. Having to spend over 1/4 of my total AP just to access the top row of the racial tree means that anything on that top row is pretty much on permanent ignore for me. It is just far to expensive to ever consider putting enough points into a racial tree to try to get to that point for anything. Take a human who wants to focus on healing amp as an example. I would have to spend 22 of my 80 AP in the human tree to be able to get tier 3 of my healing amplification. That leaves me with 58 AP to spend in my class trees. Assuming that I want to get the capstone of my primary tree, and a few enhancements from the top tier of my preferred tree, that would run me somewhere in the 42-50 ap cost range. That would leave me with around 8-16 ap left over to spend in my other two trees. Maybe enough to get into the third tier of another tree, assuming there aren't more things I find appealing in my preferred tree.

Yes, there needs to be hard choices in what enhancements to take. However, as the system stands currently, it is far too restrictive. When you can spend all of your points in 1 class tree and your racial tree, and run out of points before getting all of the enhancements that you would want, it seriously hurts our abilities to tailor our characters to our desires. Unless the costs, both in terms of ap per rank and ap per tier are lowered, there may as well not be a tree limit as using more than 1 tree wouldn't even be viable in most cases.

[legendlore]

Bards still get spellpower and have access to magical Training without spending a feat, but that's a discussion for later this week.

Bards are not yet ready for testing. We'll talk in two weeks.

Missed this gem from before, thanks for the quick reply.

I'm all for making the different bard prestiges unique (warchanters halt their spell progression entirely in pnp while caster focused bard prestiges can get level 9 spell progression as an example).

I'm a bit concerned though that the result will be an extra action point tax for bards to get what others get for free. Artificers are in many ways similar to the bard class. They share a mixed martial/caster play style and both provide nice party buffs and healing (often supplemented with scrolls).

Artificers now get no less than 3 exotic weapon feats for free to mirror their martial aspect and get the Magical training feat for free as well, they also enjoy a larger base spell pool and damage spells. Making them both more magically and martially adept than a bard.

Bards already have a history of being action point taxed for their songs as well getting to-hit better than a greater heroism cost a total of 9 ap in the current system and full damage line 12 ap more. With weapons scaled damage dice in epic levels a greater heroism combined with a deadly weapons spell is already in most cases superior to an fully enhanced Inspire courage, yet Artificers don't have to spend a single ap to enhance their deadly weapons. (Now both are best of course but this is just a straight up class comparison).

Hope this is taken into consideration when revealing the new bard enhancements.

Looking forward to seeing them.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Still chewing on the idea...I go back and forth on if opening the gates to multiclassing will help or hurt at this point.

It would hurt. If you open it up to too many variables at once, you and the player base will miss a lot.

Your piecemeal plan is a good one. Stick to it.

[bigolbear]

26 bugs last night..BAH. My seven year old when he comes to work reports more than that in a day
Bring the wall.
I
Triple
Dog
Dare
You.

WISH GRANTED! (maybe wrong thread not too sure)

I dont have the lam client installed - but the nice folks here have posted up the lists of enhancements and much of what im talking about is general purpose.

Id like to refer you to the origal lets talk enhancement thread, posts from my self - failed legend, ape man and many other strong contributors.

Our Concerns in that thread seem to have been largely ignored (although i get that your trying to be restrictive so you dont nerf later).

so... here goes...





GENERAL CONCERNS:

1. SPELL POWER:
1.1 The idea of tying spell power into 'number of points spent in tree' is disasterous. PLEASE DONT DO THIS. It forces you to spend heavily (ie max out) in that specific tree to aquire the top amount of spell power - this is some thing that almost all casters will want so what this system is doing is forcing casters to pick X tree to max out denying them versatility.
1.2 the idea of tying it into skills. This is less poor BUT you need to be aware that if your going to do this you should probably be granting various classes more skill points per lvl. These skills were not mandatory in pen and paper where the balance of skill points per lvl was originaly determined. Further more The benefit if based on skills should only be based on skill RANK not total modifier because the sheer difference between an int skill on a wizard end game and an int skill on say a cleric or druid is huge. Furether more certain classes that may need these spell powers dont even have access to the relevant skill as a class skill!
1.3 little to no availabily of spell power outsidide the common choices for that class - this is a problem with the current system and one i see being transferred to the new one. clerics get fire and electric and force spells... wizards get sonic spells...

My solution: each CASTING tree to get 3 drop downs for spell power (multi selectors). each race to get 1 drop down multi selector for spell power(to enable boosting of past life actives and dragon marks).


2. LACK OF FREEDOM.
please dont force us to 'buy' junk in order to aquire desired abilities. This is a fundamental design decision and one that you want to seem to do despite a strong opinion from your player base that it is not the right move.

Any and all gating should be purely 'character lvl' - not class lvl and not points spent in tree.
The 'auto grants' at the bottom of the tree should also folow this rule(but should not be the focus of power, rather they should eb small beenfits). we have payed for them by selecting them as one of our trees.

I would encourage you to make EVERY ability desired (atleast by some one) . make us struggle to allocate our points because we cant decide what cool features we want - rather than having us make the decision 'which tree do i want to max out?'

I say NO to junk abilities as prerequisites!

3. this is a massive over haul. I was there when SWG went under... I was in the angry crafters march that crashed the servers on everquest 2... Im deeply concerned that this kind of scope of changes can break a game - or atleast cause a mass exodus. Dont release this until your getting 90%+ positive feedback on the forums. schedules be dammed, its this kind of thing that kills games. I can tell you now that if you release as it stands most of your long term divine players are going to leave - which will cripple end game raiding.




SPECIFIC CONCERNS:
(note please that im only writing about elements that i have veiwed, not about everything)
1. human racial.
big issue is the need to spend points on junk to get stuff we want - its bad design. loose the prerequisites.

2. wf racial.
same as human +
any line that grants DR should also grant PRR - otherwise wf will be great for easy/lowbee content but poor for highby/elite content. DR 5 is **** near meaningless when the enemy is hitting for 100+, conversely its awesome when the enemy is hitting for 10 to 20.

the choice between 'more humanoid' or 'more construct' is great in principle, but the issue with repair amp is that it will only be taken by wf arcanes - and that will be used as an excuse to screw up the spell power on recon like you did to heal - it will also become 'mandatory' enhancements wich is bad.

What we need here is instead:
- no benefit/loss to repairs to arcanes - its about right.
- significant benefit to repairs and heals and defence for WF mele.
- place the onus of repair functionality on the WF mele allowing 'any arcane' to reasonably repair them and allowing a dedicated repaier to do so better than a cleric.

Thus I propose:
1. healers friend line - as is in current system.
2. FREE body feat at lvl 1.
3. body enhancement line that is dependant on the body selected
- composite grants reduced ASF and minimal PRR.
- mithril grants AC, MAX dex and moderate PRR. + moderate repair amp (20%)
- Adamantine grants AC, DR, good PRR. + very high repair amp. (50%)
- new Iron wood grants AC, PRR, heal amp (20%)
4. loose the repair amp line.
5. change the -ASF line to be more clear.
- tier 1 no ASF in composite.
- tier 2 no ASF from light armour(ie mithril plating).
- tier 3 no ASF from medium armour (ie iron wood)


3. cleric class.
Hate to say but these suck. teribly. Despite the fact that clerics are healers, almost all dvine players want more than this - if anything the ability to heal effectively is best given to us for free, to guarentee that all clerics are capable in that regard.

Now so far we can only see the protection and healing domains.

I beleiev it is a mistake to have the domains as the clerics trees - it clearly seperates them from every one else.

Tree wise the clerics probly need:
1. healing tree - focussed on healing and protection fo the party and self + use of turn undead.
2. fighting tree - focussed on mele combat.
3. casting tree - focussed on offensive casting.

Each tree would then have a drop down line for 'domain of choice' - there could even be some overlap.

Because I feel most stongly that of all ive seen this is what you have the most wrong ill try to be constructive here - ill knock up some rough draught trees.

HEALING TREE.
core:
1.+25 sp.
2.echoes of power+ 4 sp.
3.gain +25 sp.
4.echoes of power+ 4 sp.
5.efficient empower heal - 2 sp.

tier 1:
spell points : +25, 50, 75.
SLA: cure light.
Spell power line(drop down - ALL spell powers- cant select one you have already) - spell power+X, crit +X
divine healing (use turn undead to heal 1 person) upgraed to do divine cleansing too.
domain drop down power 1 (choose from SUN, HEALING, PROTECTION)

tier 2:
STAT: charisma + 1/2
SLA: lesser restor
Spell power line
Extra turning.
domain(sleected at tier 1) power 2

tier 3:
Improved turning
SLA: cure mod
Spell power line
divine vitality
domain power 3

tier 4.
Faster turning - turns comback 10% faster.
SLA: restoration
spell damage bonus vs undead, 25, 50, 75% (brings a cleric up to arcane lvls using heals to nuke undead)
divine blessing - use turn undead to ward target ally or self - grants bonus to saves, prr and max hp.
domain power tier 4

tier 5.
powerful turning - you now turn twice the hit die of undead.
SLA: mass cure light.
santuary - while this spell is active enemies do not target you and you cannot be harmed. duration 1 minute, cool down 10 minutes. casting an offensive spell or attacking ends this spell prematurely. positive enrgy damage to undead does not count.
Servant of the gods - target ally gets +30% heal amp and +50% threat. toggle.
domain power tier 5.


FIGHTING TREE:
core:
+10 hp
+2 to hit
+10 hp
+2 to hit
+10 hp


tier 1:
hit points : +10, 20, 30.
SLA: divine power.
Spell power line(drop down - ALL spell powers- cant select one you have already) - spell power+X, crit +X
divine strength (use turn undead to boost damage)
domain drop down power 1 (choose from WAR, HEALING, PROTECTION)

tier 2:
STAT: strength OR con - +1/2
SLA: sheild of faith (upgrades to mass)
Spell power line
holy weapons - while using divine strength your weapon gains pure good.
domain(selected at tier 1) power 2

tier 3:
Battle tide - use a turn undead to grant your allies a bonus to damage(+2) and attack speed(+10%).
SLA: protection from evil (upgrades to mass)
Spell power line
Mace mastery - gain +1 to hit, gain +2 to damage with maces, light maces.
domain(selected at tier 1) power 3

tier 4:
divine protection - grant all allies a tempory bonus to AC and PRR with a turn undead attempt.
SLA: divine favour
The needs of war: any weapon you equip now grants an implement bonus as if it were a casting scepter.
Glorious weapons - all weapons you equip are considered ghost touch.
domain(selected at tier 1) power 4

tier 5:
War Aura - use a turn undead to grant your allies a bonus to damage(+4) and attack speed(+15%) and +10 prr. This improves on battle tide.
SLA: recitation
Divine transformation (drop down to select faith) toggle- gain LARGE bonuses to mele combat but all spell cool downs other than healing spells are increased by 300%.
Weapon familiarity - gain proficiency in all martial weapons, any benefits you gain to maces now apply to all weapons.
domain(selected at tier 1) power 5


CASTING TREE:
core:
+25 sp
+25 sp
+25 sp
+25 sp
+50 sp

tier 1:
spell points : +25, 50, 75.
SLA: command. (upgrades to greater)
Spell power line(drop down - ALL spell powers- cant select one you have already) - spell power+X, crit +X
divine augment (use turn undead to boost spell power (+20% of current) for 1 minute.)
domain drop down power 1 (choose from HEALING, DEATH, MAGIC, AIR, FIRE, WATER, EARTH, TRAVEL)

tier 2:
STAT: wisdom - +1/2/3
SLA: sound burst.
Spell power line
divine magics (improves divine augment - gain + 1,2,3 caster lvl and max caster lvl to any spell while active)
domain drop down power 2

tier 3:
indepth study: gain bonus SP from wisdom and inteligence and charisma, not just wisdom.
SLA: searing light.
Spell power line
divine wrath (metamagic - while on all your spells deal half damage as holy - if striking an evil enemy this damage is doubled. cost 10 sp per spell.)
domain drop down power 3

tier 4:
spell penetration: +1, 2, 3
SLA: dismissal.
spell mastery(requires spell focus) - gain +1/2 DC and spell pen in relevent school
improved metamagic - dropdown, gain -2,4,6 to costs of metamagic.
domain drop down power 4

tier 5:
cloistered cleric - gain + 2 wisdom, +1 to all DCS, -1 to all costs of metamagics.
SLA: slay living
spell mastery2(requires spell focus) - gain +1/2 DC and spell pen in relevent school
improved metamagic2 - dropdown, gain -2,4,6 to costs of metamagic.
domain drop down power 5




DOMAIN EXAMPLES:

healing.
tier 1 - +1 CL to all healing spells.
tier 2 - radiant servant burst.
tier 3 - efficent metamagic healing.
tier 4 - radiant servant aura.
tier 5 - current cleric capstone.

war.
tier 1 - +1 to hit (proficiency in weapons of faith)
tier 2 - +2 to damage, summon spiritual weapon(uses wis as mod, gains bonus based on cl like flame blade)
tier 3 - +1 to hit (proficiency in all martial)
tier 4 - +2 to damage, +10 prr.
tier 5 - toggle - use wisdom to attack and damage rather than strength for any weapon.

magic.
tier 1 - gain magic missile as SLA. - gain 'arcane lore' equal to your lvl.
tier 2 - gain sheild as SLA.
tier 3 - gain chain missles as SLA, +1 to all DCs
tier 4 - gain greater dispell magic as SLA.
tier 5 - gain break enchantment as SLA + 1 to all spell pen checks.

travel.
tier 1 - gain expeditious retreat as SLA.
tier 2 - gain DDoor as SLA.
tier 3 - gain teleport as SLA.
tier 4 - gain permanent freedom of movement effect.
tier 5 - gain haste as SLA.

Fire.
tier 1 - gain burning hands SLA, additionaly your gain 'turn water types' which uses a turn undead and can banish water type outsiders.
tier 2 - gain scorch SLA
tier 3 - gain scorching ray SLA
tier 4 - gain fireball SLA
tier 5 - firewall SLA

NOTE the costs of SLAS granted by domains should actualy remain at base cost - better yet would be to add them to the player spell list if this is possible.

[Ziindarax]

I am not sure all these complaints about AP costs are wholey warranted. Builds are about making choices. I should not be able to have everything I want on a specific build I should have to debate between different action points thus giving us multiple build options. As it is somebody could get everything in one tree and still have enough for an entire racial tree approximatly. That does not seem too far off from where DDO should be. I would only like a little bit, but not a ton of cheaper AP then there is now.

So then do not pick up the third tier of healing amp if you find it too expensive. Healing amp has gotten really really powerful in the current game and has hurt some of the non human/h-elf race's viability. I think that the third tier of healing amp should be difficult to get as it is for humans and half-elves in this update. Exalted angel and cocoon have really boosted the power of amp.

Uh, no! With the system we currently have on the Live servers, you can actually get more/better enhancements than in this phase of Alpha, and aside from prerequisites for some of the prestiges [which even then were at least somewhat helpful], you were not forced to take enhancements you didn't want. Furthermore, you aren't forced on the Live servers to take USELESS enhancements that pretty much offer nothing, or very little at best.

That being said, it is my belief that our characters on Live are actually MORE powerful than the characters on Lamannia because the Enhancements we do have on Live are considerably more powerful - especially the casters whose spell damage has been drastically nerfed thanks to the absence of damage-type and spell critical damage enhancements.

Versatility, and the viability of unique builds, is the bread and butter of DDO. It's what makes DDO stand out from all those other MMO's out there (excluding TES:O [The Elder Scrolls: Online], which as far as I can tell seeks to match DDO in enabling players to become whatever they want to be).


@MajMalphunktion: Personally, I think you're going to catch heck no matter what you do, though if it were my choice, I'd open the flood gates so there'd be more time for everyone to provide feedback on their favorite builds, and hopefully increase the likelihood of everyone coming out of this happy.