20th List:Caught in the Web.

[Heladron]

you said it^^ .all turbine cares about is the coin...not quality.

I hope Turbine cares about money. It takes money to pay the developers and many other employees to keep our game going.

I also think they care about quality. It might not always be apparent, but quality and earnings go hand in hand.

Software, and come to think of it pretty much every business, is a tough gig. Deadlines are real and customer expectations are real and there is a constant trade off happening.

I bet Project Managers are asking the question everyday, as the deadline approaches, "Can we live with the fallout of this bug or do we risk angry players when we miss the deadline?"

I'm not suggesting that we players shouldn't be upset about bugs. Bug aren't fun. I still get annoyed by the ladder bug, but have become accustomed to it at the same time. In fact, I think I'd miss it if it really did go away.

In summary I'm just saying that if we want to have ourselves taken seriously then we should make comments about Turbine that don't just state the obvious. Of course they are in this to make money. We're all alive to make money. It's first and foremost because it is very difficult to survive without it.

Well, I should get back to work so I can make some money and not get fired from my job.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Yep, you're definitely not arguing with me, because you seem to have failed the R&C check on that post. The whole point of which was that the definition of "winning" - which I might add is pretty self-obvious - should have very little to do with the discussion of "pay 2 win" as a colloquial term.

In other words your long discussion of that completely missed the point, and fell into the same trap as the other people who tried to argue the same thing, both in this thread and beyond.

If you admit (and you just did) that the item is designed specifically to bypass an artificial barrier to gain "unfair" advantage, then you have, by definition, admitted that it's "pay 2 win", regardless of your definition of "winning". Because that's basically what "pay 2 win" means.

Unless the bypass *gives him* a completion its not really pay 2 win, its "pay to play the lotery again in the hopes of getting what he wants, maybe".

There was a good chance he wouldn't get the item he wanted in the 20th list and he ransacked the chests for the item to drop in his name. At worse the bypass is "pay to win?"

Destinies are straight up pay 2 win, but bypass? Not so much.

[Heladron]

Yep, you're definitely not arguing with me, because you seem to have failed the R&C check on that post. The whole point of which was that the definition of "winning" - which I might add is pretty self-obvious - should have very little to do with the discussion of "pay 2 win" as a colloquial term.

In other words your long discussion of that completely missed the point, and fell into the same trap as the other people who tried to argue the same thing, both in this thread and beyond.

If you admit (and you just did) that the item is designed specifically to bypass an artificial barrier to gain "unfair" advantage, then you have, by definition, admitted that it's "pay 2 win", regardless of your definition of "winning". Because that's basically what "pay 2 win" means.

It was a pretty long winded way of saying that I think there should be a different term used to describe what is really happening.

Cheers.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

If you admit (and you just did) that the item is designed specifically to bypass an artificial barrier to gain "unfair" advantage, then you have, by definition, admitted that it's "pay 2 win", regardless of your definition of "winning". Because that's basically what "pay 2 win" means.

Bypass of an artifical barrier - Check

gaining an "unfair" advantage - hmmm, have to think about that one a bit more.

[Hafeal]

Bypass of an artifical barrier - Check

gaining an "unfair" advantage - hmmm, have to think about that one a bit more.

I am with you.

The question to ask is why was there a raid timer in the first place? The 'official' explanation was game balance. Now, whether or not that is true or if it was simply a carrot becomes clearer when you are given the opportunity to *buy* a bypass and pay the developers money. SO, maybe game balance really was not a concern? Now, if game balance is not a concern, wouldn't it seem that it leans away from being "unfair"?

[DeafeningWhisper]

I am with you.

The question to ask is why was there a raid timer in the first place? The 'official' explanation was game balance. Now, whether or not that is true or if it was simply a carrot becomes clearer when you are given the opportunity to *buy* a bypass and pay the developers money. SO, maybe game balance really was not a concern? Now, if game balance is not a concern, wouldn't it seem that it leans away from being "unfair"?

I thought raid timers were implimented when there was only a couple of raids available as a means to artificially extend the content until the next update, that wasn't it?

[Hendrik]

Unless the bypass *gives him* a completion its not really pay 2 win, its "pay to play the lotery again in the hopes of getting what he wants, maybe".

There was a good chance he wouldn't get the item he wanted in the 20th list and he ransacked the chests for the item to drop in his name. At worse the bypass is "pay to win?"

Destinies are straight up pay 2 win, but bypass? Not so much.

Thankfully just about everyone that plays DDO has Destinies by now, or has had them.

Where you at in your Destiny?

[DeafeningWhisper]

Thankfully just about everyone that plays DDO has Destinies by now, or has had them.

Where you at in your Destiny?

I write my own destiny, in the blood of my enemies!


Also Shiradi, Exalted, Draconic, Magister for my toons

[Hafeal]

I thought raid timers were implemented when there was only a couple of raids available as a means to artificially extend the content until the next update, that wasn't it?

I am certain that was a side effect. I do not think you will ever get the devs (who are left from then) to state it was the main reason. When the game started, and timers were implemented, DDO was just out and had a growing player base and good pub. There was 1 raid at launch, I think, Tempest Spine, but Velah came in the first update (4/06), Titan a couple after that (7/06), and Demon Sands just after that (10/06) - all in 2006. So while maybe there was some thought to "keeping players busy", I don't think it was a primary motivation. FYI, Gianthold than was released in 4/07.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I am certain that was a side effect. I do not think you will ever get the devs (who are left from then) to state it was the main reason. When the game started, and timers were implemented, DDO was just out and had a growing player base and good pub. There was 1 raid at launch, I think, Tempest Spine, but Velah came in the first update (4/06), Titan a couple after that (7/06), and Demon Sands just after that (10/06) - all in 2006. So while maybe there was some thought to "keeping players busy", I don't think it was a primary motivation. FYI, Gianthold than was released in 4/07.

I see, I also could have mistaken the epic timers with the raid timers. They say making mistakes is human, I've been particulary human today...

[Ranncore]

Entering a raid on any difficulty besides Elite is as good as winning. Don't kid yourselves.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Entering a raid on any difficulty besides Elite is as good as winning. Don't kid yourselves.

So you're saying there is no pay to win since it's all "show up to win"?

[Ranncore]

So you're saying there is no pay to win since it's all "show up to win"?

No, they are not exclusive. Just like grind-to-win and pay-to-win are not exclusive. They all exist here.

[Rauven]

To me there is a distinction between winning and bypassing a wait. I guess if one distorts the definition of winning to mean accomplishing a set goal then anything can be winning. Getting up out of bed can be winning. Whatever floats your boat right?

I got out of bed today. YAY, I win! Tomorrow looks iffy, though.

[Rogann]

Just so that I have something to stay on the topic of the original post. The end reward list looked cool. And having cool gear is fun. It seems like purchasing raid timer bypasses can be good if one values having cool gear before the next ice age.

Actually the gear isn't cool at all. The Celestia is a nice DR breaker but that doesn't matter as I already had dr breakers. It doesn't beat the lit 2's plus its rather annoying with the AOE dmg with rogue. Aggroing seven spies sucks. I'm still at the point where I was before. Same old item build. Looking back on it I already knew the Celestia's sucked. I think I did it because I was somewhat angry at the 'we're not taking you, your ransacked' nonsense. Also I wanted to show that the raid was kinda fun and easy to complete. So I made a total of 34 PUG lfm's with completions in 9 days. The total average raids per day was almost 4. Was it worth it? No. Was it fun? Yes.

[Fafnir]

I would have expected to see a tome in one of those lists.

[Shaatan]

A friend got his 20th completion tonight and got 3x +4 Tomes lol. I ll ask him if he took a screenshot of the list once he logs but here is what I have:

[Tid12]

A friend got his 20th completion tonight and got 3x +4 Tomes lol. I ll ask him if he took a screenshot of the list once he logs but here is what I have:

Only +4s and not even a +5.

So, can they be pulled only from the chest? Or a Dev lied to us saying that +5s were there? Not sure what I should believe here.

[Gara]

Got my 20th and there it is in its small glory if anyone still cares about seeing the 20th lists. I wanted a Celestia but can't quite decide if I should take the +4 tome or not.

[Antiguo]

Only +4s and not even a +5.

So, can they be pulled only from the chest? Or a Dev lied to us saying that +5s were there? Not sure what I should believe here.

A developer said tomes +5 could drop there? when? show me a legit screenshot whit a +5 tome please.