Spell damage in Heroic Elite

[erethizon]

This may be slightly off-topic (and I of all people do not want to deter any attention from fixing spell damage which I consider to be the single biggest problem in the game right now), but frankly, scaling quests based on party size should not be happening at all. One of the reasons you form a group is because you are not able to successfully solo or two-man it. If adding new people only makes the quest more difficult then much of the reason to add new people is gone. When you have 5 people in a group you should be able to take any other player just because having someone extra around will make things easier. But if adding that person only makes the dungeon harder, then there is no room for below-average players (which are plenty common in pick-up-groups).

Alright, I have said my piece. The issue of dungeon scaling is nowhere near as important as fixing elite spell damage so I definitely prefer you focus on that. Still, if there were no dungeon scaling for party size some of these issues might never come up (and be easier to isolate when they do come up). That said, the spell damage problem creeps up even in party sizes of one, so clearly party scaling is not the only issue (if it is a cause of this particular issue at all).

[Phoenix-daBard]

Here's the status as I currently understand it:

Thanks for the update.

[Dagolar]

Here's the status as I currently understand it:

A change was made in patch 2 that was supposed to address some (or all) of this. The issue is tricky because we cannot find any 'smoking gun' that accounts for the descriptions of what you guys are seeing. When we test it here, we don't get crazy amounts of damage. When we do the math based on formulas and stats we also don't get these numbers. We saw a potential scaling issue which we addressed, feeling somewhat confident at the time that it was the culprit, but again, we couldn't be absolutely sure.

I've just come back from vacation where I totally 'shut off' and need to catch up some, but I take it from the latest posts here that the problem is not solved.

The dev that I need to investigate this is currently helping out on a raid fix so it might be a couple days before I have more info.

Since I've been running my TRs recently, I can't attest to the status of mid to high level quests either way, but low level quests- at least, every single quest up through Base Quest Level 4- has been fixed as of patch 2.

[sirgog]

Since I've been running my TRs recently, I can't attest to the status of mid to high level quests either way, but low level quests- at least, every single quest up through Base Quest Level 4- has been fixed as of patch 2.

I can attest to this too - I was able to solo WW elite on an ungeared first-life Druid just fine. However the acid trap is still overtuned - I was only able to solo it because I had a guild 30 acid resist shrine on me; without that I would have needed external heals from a player with moderately quick reflexes to survive it. (It hit for 60-80 raw damage and has a low enough save DC that I made half of my saves, generally it hits you three times on the way to each valve).

60 raw damage with a low DC, or 40 with a high DC would IMO be appropriate for that specific trap.

[Moltier]

When we test it here, we don't get crazy amounts of damage.

Where do you test? How do you test? How many people test it?

The way you should test is something like this:

1. Pick one normal server. Not test server, nor preview, but live server.
2. Make a team with 5-6 players in it. No hires.
3. Choose a few quests most people complain about, plus a few randomly choosen.
4. Do an elite run.
5. Repeat 3 and 4, but solo, or with a hire.

Quests where you can see what we are talking about: Running with the Devils, GH Tor, Reaver's fate, Shroud, Kobold... but i guess every quest with lot of casters.

[red_cardinal]

Maybe mobs have that kind of spell damage and spell crit because of 'Thaumaturgy' change.
Maybe some Eladrin Sorcerer out there has 9% Lightning lore...

Just a thought.

[darkrhavyn]

We were in GH this evening....doing the orc walkup ( Feast or Famine I think?) and our rogue with evasion apparently failed a save...582 pt disintegrate ...at least I hope she failed, cause if that was a save I'm scared. 5 peeps 1 hire, and noone had died before then. Just another example for the books.

[Grieve]

MadFloyd,

Just wondering if it's possible that with the spellpower change that maybe the arbitrary spellpower values now assigned to monsters may be scaling too much based on the mobs CR. I mention this only due to the fact that monsters are capable of being at levels much higher than the players and with that their spellpower values are probably scaling with them pushing their damage output much higher.

From what I can tell, as far as the spells are concerned, is that monsters are now doing equivalent damage to players as players do to monsters for those same spells on Elite, and sometimes Hard, content.

I mean a level 19 or 20 caster with no damage enhancements, but maximize and a good potency item can easily hit for 500-600 damage off a disintegrate, which is exactly what was described in the Tor example except it wasn't a player hitting a monster. It was the other way around, the monster hit the player with disintegrate.

Basic RPG style combat system:
The player has a smaller HP pool and hits like a mac truck
The monsters have a much larger HP pool and hit like a gnats in comparison.

What happened after spellpower changes: (specifically with spell damage)
The player still has a small HP pool and hits like a mac truck
The monsters still have a massive HP pool, but now hit slightly less or just as hard as their player counterparts.

I'm guessing the damage from traps is scaling in much the same way as the monsters.

[Missing_Minds]

I've just come back from vacation where I totally 'shut off' and need to catch up some, but I take it from the latest posts here that the problem is not solved.

The dev that I need to investigate this is currently helping out on a raid fix so it might be a couple days before I have more info.

Both points are very understandable. Have fun diving back into the mix!

[Hulligan]

Ran an Epic Elite Tide yesterday with guildies.

I got poisoned... no big deal. - I thought. When stat damage was applied from the poison I grabbed my heal scroll to make it disappear and ... dang, I'm helpless. 40 Dexterity gone in a blink of an eye and dropped to 0 because of stat damage poison. I understand it's EE, but hey ! Are you kiddin' me ? 40 points of stat GONE ? IN 1 TICK ?

PS: It's pointless to mention I guess, that I had 40+ fortification save and +6 poison resist item... :S

[Ivan_Milic]

Xorian cipher lvl 8,elite(10) Arcane skeletons doing 120 lightning dmg and tharaak hounds doing 100 acid dmg.
Up until now(from lvl 1 on my tr) no casters were hitting for more than 60 dmg and now all of the sudden they hit for 120 dmg,completely caught me off guard and I got killed on my 240 hp barb.
If screen shots are needed I can post them.

[RumbIe]

I would agree that Running with Devils is pretty high. The searing light was doing 350 or so per hit on me. I got hit twice in a row and no way could I survive a hit of 700 damage in a fraction of a second. As a note this was not in undead form. In undead form I took 650 damage from a ht. Ouch! That's insane from one hit.

Also in Shipwrecked spy I noted the clerics did some serious damage. Also not in undead form, though I can't remember the exact numbers.

[Dwarfo]

Got hit in Elite Tempest Spine for a 460+ damage successful destruction save from one of the giant seers. Happened everytime I got rezzed, same with my other party member.

I only had 320 hp.

[Armus]

This game is so messed up especially at the top end that I'm going to TR and not rush to level. Hopefully in three months they will have it fixed. Then I'll be ready to enjoy it again but right now, it's not that much fun.

[neologia]

The Forgotten Caverns on Elite

WF Arti level 7 with 20 Cold Resistance Running
119 HP, 19 Con, Toughness, 1 Racial Toughness Enhancement

Entrance Room with the Ice Mephis

Combat log of 2-3 seconds:

You Suffer a total of 64 points of damage from Trap Cold after 20 were blocked by energy resistance.
You Suffer a total of 55 points of damage from Trap Cold after 20 were blocked by energy resistance.
You were incapacitated by Igenitum
You hit Iron defender for 93 points of cold damage
Iron Defende's trap:cold hit Iron Defender for a total of 93 points of cold Damage after 20 were blocked by energy resistance.
You hit Iron defender for 93 points of cold damage
Iron Defende's trap:cold hit Iron Defender for a total of 93 points of cold Damage after 20 were blocked by energy resistance.
Iron Defender were killed by Iron Defended

[MadFloyd]

This may be slightly off-topic (and I of all people do not want to deter any attention from fixing spell damage which I consider to be the single biggest problem in the game right now), but frankly, scaling quests based on party size should not be happening at all. One of the reasons you form a group is because you are not able to successfully solo or two-man it. If adding new people only makes the quest more difficult then much of the reason to add new people is gone. When you have 5 people in a group you should be able to take any other player just because having someone extra around will make things easier. But if adding that person only makes the dungeon harder, then there is no room for below-average players (which are plenty common in pick-up-groups).

Alright, I have said my piece. The issue of dungeon scaling is nowhere near as important as fixing elite spell damage so I definitely prefer you focus on that. Still, if there were no dungeon scaling for party size some of these issues might never come up (and be easier to isolate when they do come up). That said, the spell damage problem creeps up even in party sizes of one, so clearly party scaling is not the only issue (if it is a cause of this particular issue at all).

As of the last patch the game should no longer be scaling UP based on party size, making it easier in full groups. It's currently balanced on a 4 person party. Adding a 5th or 6th doesn't affect scaling.

[Galeria]

Combat log of 2-3 seconds:

You Suffer a total of 64 points of damage from Trap Cold after 20 were blocked by energy resistance.
You Suffer a total of 55 points of damage from Trap Cold after 20 were blocked by energy resistance.
You were incapacitated by Igenitum

So, you killed yourself in the traps. Why would you do that?

There is absolutely no reason to run into that room and stand in the traps; I have no idea why people deliberately stand in traps then complain that they hurt.

Stay next to the door or stay on the raised patio to either side of the door and the traps never hit you. The mephits will happily come to you to be killed. Sometimes you have to play smart.

[DarkForte]

So, you killed yourself in the traps. Why would you do that?

There is absolutely no reason to run into that room and stand in the traps; I have no idea why people deliberately stand in traps then complain that they hurt.

Stay next to the door or stay on the raised patio to either side of the door and the traps never hit you. The mephits will happily come to you to be killed. Sometimes you have to play smart.

And the force traps on elite pit are completely avoidable (no sarcasm here). That's not the point, the point is it's upscaled highly from u13 values.

[Dagolar]

So, you killed yourself in the traps. Why would you do that?

There is absolutely no reason to run into that room and stand in the traps; I have no idea why people deliberately stand in traps then complain that they hurt.

Stay next to the door or stay on the raised patio to either side of the door and the traps never hit you. The mephits will happily come to you to be killed. Sometimes you have to play smart.

I have to admit I find it absurd when people zerg into the middle of that room instead of letting an evader run in and pull the mobs to the door.

But, in any case, the usual damage numbers for that room, as I recall them, were in the 35-45 damage range.
Then again, it's not exactly a trap I make a point of testing often.

Between that and what Sirgog mentioned, I should add:
Trap damage does still seem scaled a bit upward- perhaps by x2 of what it used to be.

But I actually enjoy that- traps for the most part have been negligible in the game prior to now, anyway.
Even before ship resists and better items and hp-min-maxing, we used to run quests with traps without trappers without any problems. A bit of emphasis on trapping and evading utilization doesn't hurt- as long as its not as absurdly scaled on DCs as it was, anyway ;P

There's certainly a big difference in effect between a x2 scaled-damage trap and x5 scaled damage spell, in any case.
Actually should reemphasize that the post-expansion stun spells/effects quirk is still in effect. [eg, mobs'll restun you while you're still stunned, until you die].
Add in the ability to spam up to 450 damage light spells in quick succession, or 900 damage disints..
The real issue is the sure-kill element of it.

[munificence]

Glad to hear you are back and working on this.

In my experience, the nastiest spells have been:

1) Disintegrate, especially in mid-high level content. Across the board, disintegrates seem to start hitting for 400+ around gianthold.
2) Finger of Death, destruction, shadow manipulation, etc. I've been hit with 400-600 point finger of death spells in IQ for sure, and Shadow Manipulation for 400+ in several quests in Necro 4. Saving or having deathblock and still getting instakilled is not cool.
3) Light damage, especially in Running with the Devils, but in a few other places. We have no resists and no saves against some of these spells, and they can hit for 150+ in very rapid succession.
4) Meteor Swarm - in particular in Enter the Kobold, but in a few other places. Essentially, one can evade the fire portion, but the bludgeon portion will still hit for 200+.