Why the dungeon scaling hate?

[DarkAlchemist]

...The recent discussions about scaling are simply a reaction to the cries to remove Bravery Bonus because some forum posters want TR zergers to rather sniff the flowers with newbies on Normal instead of doing once and done Elite runs for levelling...

Not I but you know this sentiment that you mentioned did ring a haunting bell of something a few people used to say before I left the game (they were really old timers and some were founders) then came back and that is that TR'ing goes against the nature of DnD itself and will eventually ruin this game. I dunno but I think you nailed it on the head.

[nibel]

Didn't read the entire thread yet, only the first pages. But always when scaling is mentioned, I think things would be better if Turbine just followed their own difficulty descriptors:

Casual is for people having trouble on normal, or soloists. I think the base xp being halved is an error (unless hard XP is doubled and elite XP tripled), but the scaling there should be very newbie-friendly, to the point that no casual quests REQUIRES a second body. Xoriat Cypher casual should have only one pressure plate, on the left side, and the lever should be "already turned". So, they enter straight on the puzzle. Crucible casual have no movable doors, so you only need to challenge the maze itself. Keep the thinking into other non-soloable quests.

Normal is for experienced soloists and parties. It's the "standard difficulty". Scaling goes as today, but tops at 4 people. 5th and 6th members are just free power to the team. So, going solo may be easy, but going full 6-people is as easy as duoing. If you want to be social, you are not being penalized. Quests that requires multiple people work as intended here.

Hard is for soloists looking for a challenge and experienced parties. This should be the place where soloing is hard. A group working together is always better than going solo, but if you are experienced, geared, or simply overpower the quest, you can go solo and complete. Scaling here should START as if the group have 4 people. The fourth one add the 5-people scale, and the 5th one add the 6-people. 6th member is free power.

Elite is for experienced groups looking for a challenge. Here the gloves go out. There is no scaling. The quest is always set on the full power (like raids), and you need gear, knowledge, and/or mario skills to complete it. In all six people in party. I'm not saying the mobs should hit you for 50% HP damage per hit, but you can't go in naked at-level runs and expect to win Elite. Elite Misery's Peak being done by level 2 toons should be an achievment by itself.

The only thing working against this setting is because everyone LIKES to solo Elite and have their favor rewards as soon as possible. If yugo pots (and bank slots, and inventory slots, and silver flame pots, and deneith arrows, and...) were only for the people willing to get good players around to do Elite Amrath, they would be a true reward. And if you see someone with a yugo icon on the buff bar, you know he earned it fair and square.

Raids are another monster to skin, but let's resume saying that, yes, I believe that raids should not count towards bravery bonuses (like devil assault is now), and Elite raids should be expected to be run by capped people (20 or 25, when MotU launches) and balanced around it (as if they are normal level 20 raids). Epic setting is just Elite's Elite.

[Enoach]

Turbine originally set out as a goal to have all quests be scaled towards a 4 person party. So if you took fewer, it meant more slack for each person to pick up. If you took more, it meant the work was spread out more.

What scaling's intention was to make Short Man (less than 4) and Fullish (5-6) groups have the same challenge level as the 4 person party.

The problem is that the scaling is not perfect. This means some quests solo are cake walks compared to full groups. The reason is that scaling effects the number and HP of spawns in some quests (standard DM notes for many dungeons on how to scale up or down depending on party size) to the point that solo you could have 1/5 th the number of spawns as you would see in a Party (4 person make up).

Even before scaling Solo running of quests occurred - in fact I believe many that solo'd were looked at with more awe and wonder as they had to face the same number of creatures that hit just as hard and had just as many HP as the Full Group.

If a dungeon scaling just magically disappeared, I don't believe there will be any less soloing of quests as many that do solo quests do it for personal reasons be it amount of time, personal satisfaction, or their ability to play with others.

Those that find that they can't solo without dungeon scaling will either; strive to be able to solo, spend more TP so they can strong arm a solo, group more or leave.

[AtomicMew]

The recent discussions about scaling are simply a reaction to the cries to remove Bravery Bonus because some forum posters want TR zergers to rather sniff the flowers with newbies on Normal instead of doing once and done Elite runs for levelling.
...
But i MUCH rather level up with once and done Elite questing than farming Normal 10 times. So when people start whining for removal of BB because they cant find players to run Normal with, i point out that scaling has made Normal=Solo.

You're not really understanding the problem. The problem isn't that newbies want to play on normal, the problem is that newbies want to play on elite but they CAN'T. They want to pretend that they are good enough to do the once and done elite method, but don't realize that they only way they can get through elite is if they are carried. This leads to vets and truly experienced players not pugging, because putting something like "vets/TRs", "be geared", "be able to solo a tower/side/bbq", "be worth the dungeon scale" in your LFM always, literally 100% of the time, gets completely ignored.

From there, I don't think it is much of a leap to say that these anti-grouping mechanisms are hurting the game. A new player comes into the game and sees only a dozen, max two dozen LFMs. He's interested in running some Gianthold or Necro 4 quests, but there are zero LFMs available for that content, except for the one he just clicked on and was just declined for. What he doesn't realize is that there are probably hundreds of parties going on at any given time, and probably a dozen or so at level groups who would love to take him and show him the ropes... except for the fact that he can't contribute and will be worse than a burden to the party - he'd be a detriment.

And it is just not fun to carry someone who will literally make your party worse. Adding someone to your party should at worst, be zero sum.

TLDR:
- newbs DON'T want to play on normal, they want to play on elite with vets, but can't.
- vets WANT to let newbs into their elite parties in hopes of teaching the next generation, but not at the cost of the quest taking significantly longer and getting 10% less EXP.

[Zyerz]

I personally dont hate the scaling, I just hate how you get harried over 5 times and cant move. It's insane. They should lower that imo.

[MadFloyd]

Oh yes, dungeon scaling in challenges is really absurd. Dr rushmore is a joke soloing, even on epic levels, while having more people in there makes you having at least a second healer to keep the other healer alive due to the high amounts and duration of stuns combined with high damage. The dungeon scaling on kobold island massively limits the party to only get people with one of the powerful and self-sufficient classes, best with outstanding gear as well, to be able to split up in 6 'groups' and increase the output per challenge. Only Lava caves and extraplanar palace are alright.

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.

[munificence]

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.

So the most expensive content pack in the game is fundamentally flawed when it comes to grouping? Anyway, at least we know the devs are aware of this now.

[DarkAlchemist]

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.

Yep, not good but this "oversight/bug" is in a lot of your quests and why this sort of stuff has helped to kill off the PUG scene. No pug scene no game for me since I rely upon PUGs for 99% of my gaming.

Seriously, please help and fix the issues that you think is only happening in challenges but (and I own the pack so I know how bad it can get in them) is really happening in a good bit of your content. Why bother with pugs when you can solo easier and quicker? Don't you see that last part as a really big negative or no?

[Coldin]

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.

Dungeon Scaling has always been a bit too strong in my opinion. Especially if you look at some of the higher level quests like the ones in Shavarath. Typically a party of 3-4 adventurers will have an easier time than a full group.

Double scaling just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[sirgog]

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.

The generator scaling in the challenges is over the top, IMO.

Seen runs where only one mob appears in the first 4 minutes of a 5 minute challenge (25 Time is Money, solo). Then you repeat with 6 players and see a good 50 mobs.


My biggest beef though is that scaling means you are penalized (with slower and less certain completions) for showing new players the ropes in a quest.

[Drwaz99]

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.

While I know that the Expansion is the main priority for the next 6 months or so (with patches, etc) which is fine, but is the double scaling adjustment on the 'eventually' to-do list? Or did I read that wrong?

[danotmano1998]

Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.

AHA!

Well that explains the large differences in difficulty when more people are added.
Great to know that generator scaling exists. I thought it did, but you never know for sure until someone like you actually tells us what the inner workings are.

Thanks for that info!

Adding someone to your party should at worst, be zero sum.

Well put. This is what I was thinking with a whole lot less words.

[Tagros]

I have been playing DDO for a few years, first in Europe, now on Ghallanda. My preferred style of play is solo, though I do group with guildies. I have, over the years, joined Pugs - either as a cleric or a melee type (usually Ranger/Pally), and they are usually a nightmare. Not with the people, most of them are fine - it's all to do with the zerg style. I remember joining a Waterworks PuG, and I stuck with the leader of the group. Two of the six had zerged ahead and completed the 1st dungeon while we were still working through. By the time we had reached the end and were about to start the second one, those same two had completed the 2nd dungeon in the quest and were waiting to start the third.

When I do the Ringleader quest, I still break every breakable; when I do the first one in the Cult of the Six series I still want to go through each secret door and 'complete' the dungeon rather than just finish it as fast as humanly possible. I like looking at the xp screen at the end of the dungeon and seeing the full Ransack and Conquest bonuses. This goes against the style of every single PuG that I've been in (and I never chose a LFM that said up-front 'zerg', 'BYOH', 'know what you're doing', and all the other varieties of zerg groupings) and so I just do not like PuGing. Getting rid of DS wouldn't cause me to quit, but trying to force me into PuGs would!

I agree Dungeon Scaling is broken - I actually prefer the idea that you get extra xp for completing a dungeon solo and/or under-level because it was DESIGNED for a 4 -toon team at-level, generally because you will have earned that extra xp. It shouldn't be easier to solo a dungeon, it should be (and be seen to be) a difficult accomplishment. [I also despise the Bravery streak bonus, but that's a different thread!]

I also think that slayer areas when fully completed should be empty (the locals just KNOW to stay away from you!), so you can't keep farming the rares in the orchard/vale for ingredients; would also give people an incentive for completing the Vale/Orchard/Subterranean areas if you could run to your raids without an encounter...

[Snarglefrump]

Oh yes, dungeon scaling in challenges is really absurd. Dr rushmore is a joke soloing, even on epic levels,

I must be doing something wrong. For me Dr. Rushmore is by far the hardest group of challenges to solo.

Out of curiosity, when you say "solo" is that solo-with-hireling or really solo? I've been bringing a healer hireling, but now I'm wondering if I should leave him behind. What class is your toon?

[quickgrif]

To me scaling was not needed with the addition of casual, however since we are stuck with the thing it should be weighted towards a party of four as some others had mentioned.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

A key problem with dungeon scaling, as it is currently implemented, is that it's the devs deciding what it should be, instead of the players deciding on their own how they would like to have fun. Bravery streak bonuses were a step in a good direction because they gave players more options for choosing how to have fun while leveling. But, just like with dungeon scaling and difficulty settings, as implemented, bravery bonuses have some arbitrary rules and dev choices associated with them that not all players will find fits the way they would like to enjoy themselves.

Once players can not only choose the difficulty setting, but also the number of characters to which each character on the team is equivalent (treat each character as 1 character, for example, or as 2 characters, or whatever, up to the mission maximum is reached) and they can scale the level of missions up or down, say, 1 or 2 levels from the level at which a mission is usually set, then what's being referred to here as "dungeon scaling" will have been implemented well.

When players make missions easier for themselves, loot and XPs should drop noticeably in quality, for balance reasons. Also, the team leader's "default" or current choices for scaling can become the team's choices, when entering missions, and they should be visible for players looking for teams, as well as in some way viewable by current teammates. Also, don't allow mid-mission changes in scaling choices; decide before you enter, then live with your choices or start over.

Beyond these considerations, let players decide on their own how they would like to have fun.

[BlackSteel]

I must be doing something wrong. For me Dr. Rushmore is by far the hardest group of challenges to solo.

Out of curiosity, when you say "solo" is that solo-with-hireling or really solo? I've been bringing a healer hireling, but now I'm wondering if I should leave him behind. What class is your toon?

Rushmore is easy with most builds/classes with the right pathing. Start by hitting up the two barrel loaded rooms at the start then bee line for the Rogue boss while grabbing any breakables on the way. This gets you completion.

Most of the time you'll be able to back door the succubus from here, then circle back slightly, using the portals if u want, and grab the warlord and the spider.

With some practice, speed, and not getting unlucky rune pulls, you'll be able to get the last two bosses as well.


I always get those first four on runs, with about a 50% chance of having time enough for the kobold, and if lucky, the last boss too



Rushmore is fun, but actually ends up being a very long quest if u're grabbing a majority of the bosses

[samho]

--snip--

I Farmed the heck out of eLOD alone ... rinse repeat, ransacked twice ... total three or four scrolls and no seals. Following week however only ran in groups to hear people tout they get a scroll ever run ... and thus struck me, Every single run with a group I got a seal, shard, scroll that week... least something. As compared to five or six runs alone for one item...

--snip--

I would say it's more about your luck than dungeon scaling (sitting at somewhere around 3 scrolls of each kind from eLoD while doing simialr thing as you, beside allowing others join at the end and change toon for completion). Same goes my old big top epic experience.

[samho]

I personally dont hate the scaling, I just hate how you get harried over 5 times and cant move. It's insane. They should lower that imo.

This issue has little to do with dungeon scaling.

What you refer to is another thing (which spark more hate than ever if I must say) -- that's Dungeon Alert and Generator Scaling (as MadFloyd mentioned) does affect it, not dungeon scaling.

[Orratti]

Keep in mind that people were soloing non scaled material without ship buffs or hirelings before and I'm absolutely certain that with these additions to the game scaling can be removed without changing anyones soloing ability. Lvls 1-12 weren't terrible to solo without scaling without these additions and it seems most have a cutoff point at around gianthold for soloing quests. My feeling on it is with a hireling and ship buffs (can go without even) scaling can be removed and put every group on the same difficulty and the game and player's skills and abilities will improve.