Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[sirgog]

Been thinking more about this.

Right now DDO has 12 classes, and your class level split is usually the most defining thing about your character. After this change, PrE choice(s) will take over.

In a way, it will feel like we have thirty-something classes.

The 'Barbarian' that joins your group will be less of a 'Pure Barbarian 20' and more of a 'Frenzied Berserker 46/Occult Slayer 30/Ravager 4' multiclass.

And the Rog13/Ftr6/Mnk1 with the quarterstaff will be more of a 'Acrobat 30/Kensai 20/Assassin 15/Half-Orc Ravager 15'.


While this will likely bust up some builds fairly badly I expect - especially Rog2/4/7 splashes (the Haste Boost + Sneak Attack enhancement splashes, like Blitz builds) - I expect it won't be as significant a buildbreaker as some other recent changes. Remember what the Update 9 changes to Epics did to Heavy Pick melee, or what the Update 11 raidboss physical DPS increases did to Warforged melee tanks?

[Aashrym]

By many more choices eladrin was refering to his totally awesome kensai warchanter arcane archer... it is awesome.

Which has nothing to do with a caster bard unfortunately. Implementing a class that utilizes CC in it's main features (which include a lot of spells) when the game mechanics lend to melee is counter intuitive.

I have high hopes I can have a spellsinger capstone with realistic caster potential and enthrall and either nice IC or some archmage SLA's if I can slip that in as a choice for human racial PrE somehow.

I would be concerned if we lost that capstone, and possibly concerned that we lose the full song duration enhancement line because it's in the virt tree (cutting effectiveness of vigor significantly) and cannot afford IC enhancements at all because they are in the war chanter tree.

Not to mention which tree gets wand and scroll.

I thought I better voice my concern before I learn the hard way.

All that still remains to be seen and some builds really might not be viable or some might be improved in ways I don't know yet. What it really means is I cannot wait to see what is coming, and then we can make better assessments.

I can't imagine what is in store to compete with the artificer capstone.

[voodoogroves]

Been thinking more about this.

Right now DDO has 12 classes, and your class level split is usually the most defining thing about your character. After this change, PrE choice(s) will take over.

In a way, it will feel like we have thirty-something classes.

The 'Barbarian' that joins your group will be less of a 'Pure Barbarian 20' and more of a 'Frenzied Berserker 46/Occult Slayer 30/Ravager 4' multiclass.

And the Rog13/Ftr6/Mnk1 with the quarterstaff will be more of a 'Acrobat 30/Kensai 20/Assassin 15/Half-Orc Ravager 15'.


While this will likely bust up some builds fairly badly I expect - especially Rog2/4/7 splashes (the Haste Boost + Sneak Attack enhancement splashes, like Blitz builds) - I expect it won't be as significant a buildbreaker as some other recent changes. Remember what the Update 9 changes to Epics did to Heavy Pick melee, or what the Update 11 raidboss physical DPS increases did to Warforged melee tanks?

I've got a 12/3/5 split on one toon who I know is going to be wonky; he's wonky-ish now.

That's ok. I'll survive.



HOWEVER



The social panel will need a bit of work. If I need a tank, I need a tank. If that isn't just fighter, pally or possibly monk anymore ... well ... we need a way to call that out. Sure there's text, but if we're really going to make the class icons unimportant ... remove them and give us more space for the text.

etc.

[Meat-Head]

I
Fourth.) this is not a complaint without suggestion post, (i hate those) so here is a small suggestion pardon me if its been said before. why not give each class 3 trees to start with; racial, base class, and pre, and then when they take a level of another class, they get that classes base tree. when they take enough levels in that class to qualify for a pre, they get the pre tree too. when they dip a third class, same rule applies, class base tree first, then pre tree if applicable. theat would give a 3-class 6 trees, but they would only be reaching the top tier of ONE pre, the racial one, if any. this is what we have now, as designed, intended, and implemented by turbine for years. please tell me how having access to only 3 trees instead of 6 is 'MORE CHOICES'? i dont understand why this would even be an issue, why limit it at all? as stated above, you start at the bottom of each tree and there are only 80 AP's to spread around. if a someone wants to splash barb for the sprint boost or fighter for the martial weapon usage who cares? its another tree with like 2 ap's used at the very bottom. if they want to splash wiz for the free meta magic feat and a few enhancements, big deal. if you are a fighter that dips rogue for evaision and a couple ap's worth of sneak attack damage why on earth would it HAVE to be one of your main trees? so what if you were born on the wrong side of the tracks and stole a copper or two before enlisting and starting your career as a fighter? that's gonna keep you from learning how to be a fighter at the highest level? really?

Cinco.) Suggestion 2, you could seperate the enhancement lines even further into tabs, like say you have a racial tree tab (1 tree) and then a class tree tab (up to 3 trees if you take 3 classes), and then a pre tree tab (up to 3 trees). the pre's would have to be selected whereas the class and racial trees would always be there. a 3-class would have harder choices, akin to the sacrifices made in the name of customization. pures would have less choices and flexibility but could attain higher tiers in their class pre's. this would give distinct advantages to both pure and multiclass builds and would allow for maximum custimization. same stacking rules as stated above to guard against overpowering. basically what we have now. only prettier to look at, easier to use, with a new UI. lol. (ie. MORE CHOICES!)

Lastly.) for reference - i have a dozen or more 3-class toons so obviously if this change ends up limiting them it will kill DDO for me. just sayin.

These, more or less, have been suggested already.

Boils down to:

1. Have an EXTRA general enh tab for your class(s)
2. Have each tree have ALL the general class enhs available within it

[sirgog]

Which has nothing to do with a caster bard unfortunately. Implementing a class that utilizes CC in it's main features (which include a lot of spells) when the game mechanics lend to melee is counter intuitive.

I have high hopes I can have a spellsinger capstone with realistic caster potential and enthrall and either nice IC or some archmage SLA's if I can slip that in as a choice for human racial PrE somehow.

I would be concerned if we lost that capstone, and possibly concerned that we lose the full song duration enhancement line because it's in the virt tree (cutting effectiveness of vigor significantly) and cannot afford IC enhancements at all because they are in the war chanter tree.

Not to mention which tree gets wand and scroll.

I thought I better voice my concern before I learn the hard way.

All that still remains to be seen and some builds really might not be viable or some might be improved in ways I don't know yet. What it really means is I cannot wait to see what is coming, and then we can make better assessments.

I can't imagine what is in store to compete with the artificer capstone.

Pretty sure Spellsinger will get the wand/scroll enhancements. That's fine, my Warchanter will take them regardless.

I would not be surprised to see Spellsingers get an ability, very 'deeply buried' in their tree, to cast Mass Hold Monster and/or Heal, allowing them to continue in their role of 'I'm half a caster/healer and I make every other caster/healer much better'.

[Meat-Head]

If you go back to Meat-Head's post on page 55 he outlines a concept in which you can make sure enough general enhancements are included and shared between each PrE so that nobody feels like they NEED to take all 3 of a classes tree to do similar to what 12point rogue may have had access to for example.

Post # 1096 for people that don't use the default number of posts per page.

[Artos_Fabril]

We're still figuring this stuff out. If you have opinions on which way to go, let us know!

Why not pull the general enhancements out of the PrEs completely.

Instead of forcing general expenditures into PrE qualifiers, break them out, and shorten the PrE qualifier trees by, say 10 points each. PrEs are already going to be gated by character levels, and if necessary PrE qualifying enhancements can be given base-class pre-reqs (as acrobat is now with Rogue Dex, for instance. Although I would remove that specific requirement, unless acrobats start gaining much more benefit from dex).

There may be a concern about the ability to gain multiple "capstones" if the trees are shortened from 40+ points each. Two possible ways to prevent this are by making sure there are base class pre-reqs that force the cost up so that a pure build couldn't have multiple capstones, or to code the PrE enhancements as free but selectable and put a limit of one capstone per character. (or one per pure class + 1 for racial PrE)

Alternatively, you could shorten the trees and allow a character to take multiple PrEs, if they have the qualifiers. You'd still be looking at a significant point expenditure, giving up a lot of general and racial enhancements in favor of PrE enhancements.

[Aashrym]

The social panel will need a bit of work. If I need a tank, I need a tank. If that isn't just fighter, pally or possibly monk anymore ... well ... we need a way to call that out. Sure there's text, but if we're really going to make the class icons unimportant ... remove them and give us more space for the text.

I think that would true of the class forums too. Roles is a better way to differentiate what we are looking for in the social panel, I agree.

[Meat-Head]

Why not pull the general enhancements out of the PrEs completely.

Instead of forcing general expenditures into PrE qualifiers, break them out, and shorten the PrE qualifier trees by, say 10 points each. PrEs are already going to be gated by character levels, and if necessary PrE qualifying enhancements can be given base-class pre-reqs (as acrobat is now with Rogue Dex, for instance. Although I would remove that specific requirement, unless acrobats start gaining much more benefit from dex).

There may be a concern about the ability to gain multiple "capstones" if the trees are shortened from 40+ points each. Two possible ways to prevent this are by making sure there are base class pre-reqs that force the cost up so that a pure build couldn't have multiple capstones, or to code the PrE enhancements as free but selectable and put a limit of one capstone per character. (or one per pure class + 1 for racial PrE)

Alternatively, you could shorten the trees and allow a character to take multiple PrEs, if they have the qualifiers. You'd still be looking at a significant point expenditure, giving up a lot of general and racial enhancements in favor of PrE enhancements.

I get this, but is it really too tricky to have a required general class enh for a PrE? Maybe the required box can have a yellow border or something. The tooltip on the PrE could show your progress toward the PrE, etc.

What you have proposed here is probably more complicated than they will do even though it's not THAT bad.

[sirgog]

I think that would true of the class forums too. Roles is a better way to differentiate what we are looking for in the social panel, I agree.

DDO is far too varied for 'class roles' to make sense.

I mean, is my Wizard an insta-killer, a crowd controller, a single-target ranged DPS, a healbot for WF, an AoE DPSer, or are they a tank? They can do all of those to some extent.

[voodoogroves]

I think that would true of the class forums too. Roles is a better way to differentiate what we are looking for in the social panel, I agree.

Absolutely.


And you know I'm jazzed if I can run an Air Savant bard and call it a Lyric Thaumaturge or Stormsinger. I'm nuts that way.

[voodoogroves]

DDO is far too varied for 'class roles' to make sense.

I mean, is my Wizard an insta-killer, a crowd controller, a single-target ranged DPS, a healbot for WF, an AoE DPSer, or are they a tank? They can do all of those to some extent.

Yeah but you get the point right?

LFM ... well, I need a tank. What classes do I ask for in this new model?

[Aashrym]

DDO is far too varied for 'class roles' to make sense.

I mean, is my Wizard an insta-killer, a crowd controller, a single-target ranged DPS, a healbot for WF, an AoE DPSer, or are they a tank? They can do all of those to some extent.

Tank, dps, healing, crowd control, ranged/artillery support seem like reasonable choices for roles. There could be more but I agree with voodoo that the class list is much less indicative of what we will be getting than roles would be that we need covered.

Some are obvious but others are not so much. In your example, if voodoo posted he wanted a tank and your wizard can do that you know what he's looking for and what you are applying for.

[waterboytkd]

Been thinking more about this.

Right now DDO has 12 classes, and your class level split is usually the most defining thing about your character. After this change, PrE choice(s) will take over.

In a way, it will feel like we have thirty-something classes.

The 'Barbarian' that joins your group will be less of a 'Pure Barbarian 20' and more of a 'Frenzied Berserker 46/Occult Slayer 30/Ravager 4' multiclass.

And the Rog13/Ftr6/Mnk1 with the quarterstaff will be more of a 'Acrobat 30/Kensai 20/Assassin 15/Half-Orc Ravager 15'.


While this will likely bust up some builds fairly badly I expect - especially Rog2/4/7 splashes (the Haste Boost + Sneak Attack enhancement splashes, like Blitz builds) - I expect it won't be as significant a buildbreaker as some other recent changes. Remember what the Update 9 changes to Epics did to Heavy Pick melee, or what the Update 11 raidboss physical DPS increases did to Warforged melee tanks?

I like this way of looking at it. You're not taking 2 levels of rogue. You're taking 5 AP worth of Assassin...

BUT

Regarding the need for a General ability tree, here's something to think about: the reason we have general enhancements right now (as in enhancements everyone of that class takes) is because there aren't enough good enhancements in that class. Every fighter takes Haste boost because it's the best, and there's nothing else to take to replace it. Every ranger takes FE stuff because there's nothing else to take.

It's very possible that this won't be true under this new system. I mean, how many 12/6/2 builds taking 6 ranger also want haste boost? Guess what, they can get that from Tempest tree now. My point is that the NEED for a general tab may not even be there. Every tree might have something you want in it anyways. When you have your mutt builds, you might find that every tree is awesome, and you don't have enough AP to get everything you want out of 2 trees, let alone 6.

In that small glimpse we got of Tempest, I think 4 enhancements were listed, only 1 of them we ever heard of, and zero of them are current ranger enhancements.

This is an excellent opportunity for us to voice our concerns to the devs, but is a terrible time to give prescriptive feedback, because we have no idea what all is going to be in the new system. Being worried that a 3 classed toon will be locked out of good enhancements because of the 3 tree limit is a legitimate concern. But there may not be a need for a general tree because it may turn out 3 trees of enhancements is already more than you can chew (as in it'll have everything you want, especially with smart tree selection).

[Aashrym]

And you know I'm jazzed if I can run an Air Savant bard and call it a Lyric Thaumaturge or Stormsinger. I'm nuts that way.

Sounds like a way to get stormsingers in there. With the comment about using dervish to improve tempest I was hoping to see some additions like lyric thaumaturge, sublime chord, seeker of the song to flesh out bards a bit anyway. That's on my optimistic side.

[kingfisher]

I like this way of looking at it. You're not taking 2 levels of rogue. You're taking 5 AP worth of Assassin...

BUT

Regarding the need for a General ability tree, here's something to think about: the reason we have general enhancements right now (as in enhancements everyone of that class takes) is because there aren't enough good enhancements in that class. Every fighter takes Haste boost because it's the best, and there's nothing else to take to replace it. Every ranger takes FE stuff because there's nothing else to take.

It's very possible that this won't be true under this new system. I mean, how many 12/6/2 builds taking 6 ranger also want haste boost? Guess what, they can get that from Tempest tree now. My point is that the NEED for a general tab may not even be there. Every tree might have something you want in it anyways. When you have your mutt builds, you might find that every tree is awesome, and you don't have enough AP to get everything you want out of 2 trees, let alone 6.

In that small glimpse we got of Tempest, I think 4 enhancements were listed, only 1 of them we ever heard of, and zero of them are current ranger enhancements.

This is an excellent opportunity for us to voice our concerns to the devs, but is a terrible time to give prescriptive feedback, because we have no idea what all is going to be in the new system. Being worried that a 3 classed toon will be locked out of good enhancements because of the 3 tree limit is a legitimate concern. But there may not be a need for a general tree because it may turn out 3 trees of enhancements is already more than you can chew (as in it'll have everything you want, especially with smart tree selection).

which brings up the real question about multiclass toons, will this make them unnecessary? perhaps, butoo early to tell. feats and class abilities are still the main reason for splashing classes. but if say a full dos pally or an fb barb can also be a full tempest without taking any ranger levels, well that might make rangers even more underwhelming no? depends on what enhancements end up being tied to the racial pre's. there has got to be enough seperation from the real class that a racial pre on another class does not become always better than the original class.

[Yaga_Nub]

OK, read up to here.

First of all, just want to say thanks for all the participation and the valuable well articulated feedback.

I appreciate the concerns. There's a couple posts that I will respond to separately, but in general I want to say:

- I will share a mockup of the new UI.

- I am happy to reveal details of various enhancement lines as they become available - and have you guys scrutinize them.

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

Don't release this until you have all the PrEs finished. Period. End of Story.

Yaga has spoken.

[Vormaerin]

Which brings up archmagi and arcane archers. They don't follow 3 tiers currently. Might be some big changes there.

Actually, I think it will be the other way around. I expect the other PrEs to be broken up into little bonuses like Archmage, Arcane Archer, and Kensai sort of are now.

There isn't going to be a point where you say "ahah, I'm Kensai 2 now". Look at the Tempest example. There were five or six points where they got some "free" bonus for total points invested in the tree.

Class levels will be needed to meet certain enhancement requisites, either because the enhancement has a level restriction or because its a feat booster and the prerequisite feat requires a high level.

[Auran82]

At this point its almost worth losing the name 'Prestige enhancement' and call them something like 'Tree synergy bonuses' because people are still getting confused with what is being suggested.

From what I can tell, there is no such thing as a prerequisite to get access to the old PREs, you simply spend x points in the tree on whatever you want. It sounds like for the most part, they are completely removing feat requirements, and just having certain parts of the old PREs be purchasable if you have those additional feats (like the supreme cleave enhancement requiring cleave on the new FB tree)

I am hoping for the best with this, and it's really good they are getting this out there nice and early to get lots of feedback. The current enhancement system as it is, was introduced when the cap was 12 (just before GH) and really hasn't seen many changes since, stuff has just been piled on top of it. (there have been a couple of re-shuffling enhancement costs, but mostly very little change) I suspect they want to make getting each AP more rewarding and make it so you can see your progression better, as opposed to now, where for the first few levels you look at what enhancements are available and see nothing at all interesting, then having stuff seemingly appearing at random when you hit differing 'AP spent' levels. The current interface is ugly and unweildly at best and I guess they figured that while they were looking at it, they might as well redo the whole thing.

I can imagine one of the things making it more difficult to implement the other PREs was trying to jam them in the middle of a system that really, hasn't changed since it's inception.

I just hope they don't throw out the bathwater, then realise "Oh, there was a baby in there"

[Vormaerin]

w but if say a full dos pally or an fb barb can also be a full tempest without taking any ranger levels, well that might make rangers even more underwhelming no? depends on what enhancements end up being tied to the racial pre's.

You are ignoring the costs. What do you mean by "Full DoS Pally"? and "full tempest"? They obviously can't have both capstones. Do you mean ~30 points of the respective trees?

That sounds great. Except you are paying extra (unknown amount, but probably 2-5% of your total points) to open that up by racial tree instead of class. You also may run into problems with Feat enhancers. I doubt that a Drow will get the Favored Enemy and Wild Empathy Feats just for opening the racial PrE tab.

And you now have to give up one of your Pally lines. So if your Smite and Divine Sacrifice are in the KotC line and your DM and LoH enhancements are in Hunter of the Dead, which are you going to give up to get Tempest? It may not automatically be better.

If you are a race with actually useful racial lines (ie not an elf or drow), then you have to consider that any points spent on that won't tier you up in any PrC. Human Versatility, Human Healing Amp, Racial Toughness, Racial Stats... even if they are all 1pt a piece for the existing tiers, you've just spent 12 pts, plus your 2-4 pts on opening your "race pre" (at a guess), before you start ranking up any PrE.

If you try to Tier III two PrEs, you are very likely to be pretty gimp. Capstone + Tier III leaves you 9 pts (before the racial PrE fee) to spend between racials and your third line. Don't think that's going to cut it on most builds