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Last edited by Backley; 11-14-2011 at 12:24 PM.
Author of Info Blue UI Skin (Really wish Turbine would update the skinning interface and enable all the new UI parts.)
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How to get 5d6 damage from a Greatsword? There are many ways that could happen: most simply, someone could backspace over the "2d6" and type in "5d6". Someone external to the software files has no way to know the details of their data representation.
Greensteel clearly does not give a 1.5x multiplier to the weapon base, or any other constant multiplier. Going from 1d10 to 2d8 is not a 1.5x factor.
My bad, I meant Greensteel Greatswords are x1.5. Corrected, thanks.
Author of Info Blue UI Skin (Really wish Turbine would update the skinning interface and enable all the new UI parts.)
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Making up arbitrary lore does not make it actual lore. In fact, PnP is rife with artificers being able to augment a person's body by tinkering with their gear. If you could give someone a Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance by using the associated infusion on their belt or gauntlets, why couldn't you make their fists more deadly by using the infusion on their handwraps?
DEVS, READ THIS! I really like this idea. I think it'll make Deadly Weapons a bit more of a balanced spell. Of course, part of their consideration for using base damage could be that attempted balance between weapons was done by messing with base damage vs crit profiles, so weapons with poorer base damages would benefit from their great crit profile (eg khopeshes), so the smaller bonus would still be pretty good as it's affected by crits. And weapons with greater base damages would have terrible crit profiles (unarmed), so they'd need more from deadly weapons to keep it even. Of course, the eSoS breaks this entirely, having the highest base damage in the game, as well as having the best crit range in the game.
I want to say it was back before U11, when artificers were first out on lama, and Point-Blank Shot was first changed. Since PBS works like DW, people were wondering how it'd work with the epic Thornlord. Eladrin mentioned that there were intentions of tweaking epic weapons a bit, so that rather than having arbitrary base damage increases from normal to epic versions, the epic versions would receive some multiple to their base dice determined by the "class" of the epic, or something like that. So, a "class 1" epic longsword would receive a +1*(base), turning it from 1d8 to 2d8. But if it was some kind of special longsword that had 1d10 base, then the epic version would go to 2d10. But a "class 2" epic would receive a +1.5*(base), and his example was the eSoS fell in this category. That's why the eSoS went from 2d6 to 5d6.When did that change happen? How was it announced?
And, in this whole discussion, he mentioned that PBS and DW would use the weapon's original base (so 2d6 for the eSoS, and 1d8+2 for the eThornlord). Thus, the eThornlord, which gets a +1*(base) for being epic (going to 2d8+4), would only gain another 1d8+2 for PBS, and would only gain another 1d8+2 for DW, not another 2d8+4 for PBS/DW.
However, I don't know if that was actually implemented behind the scenes or not.
Is Deadly weapons just meant to be a more powerful version of elemental weapons (ie more damage because base damage is higher then 1d6 on most weapons and base damage better then elemental damage) OR is Deadly weapons being considered (as well as other future abilities which work in a similar manner...and PBS now) as a method of providing a boost for certain weapons which may not quite win out in most cases becoming top notch...
In other words...
Are epic weapons and other expanded base damage dice weapons going to be changed to have mulipliers that strictly bring them back down to their base for the weapon type or are some going to have higher then base still to allow deadly weapons and similar abilities to be more effective on them making them superior to the alternative with deadly/similar ability or worse then the alternative without?
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Note: The following is still subject to change.
We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.
Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].
The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.
This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)
We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive.
* It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]
so after FINALLY buffing the Epic Antique Greataxe, you are going to nerf it back down again? the 3d10 (3-30) base damage is one of the things that makes it competitive with other weapons, with this change it will be reduced down to 2d12 (2-24)
not to mention nerfing greensteel as well.
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Deadly weapons is roughly the equivalent of an inspire courage bard song although dispellable and single target (hence needs to be cast on multiple targets). Will bard songs be buffed? I personally think bards are more limited when you factor in deadly weapons for the aritificer especially when you consider artificers only have their 1st tier of one prestige enhancement.
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The Epic Antique Greataxe is actually planned to be a unique case, at 2[1d20]. Its average damage should increase by a small amount.
Most greensteel items are significantly weaker than 1.5[W]. 28 of them are buffed with this proposal, 2 are unchanged, and 7 become slightly weaker.not to mention nerfing greensteel as well.
Hmmm
Falchions get a slight boost. They are 2d6 as GS now, the new way would have them as 3d4. Same total damage but the low end is slightly higher.
This change would make GS khopesh even better.. we sooo needed that.
The two unchanged... Shuriken (1d3 vs 1d2 +1) and ... Great Crossbow (3d8 vs 2d8 + 1d8)?
Last edited by TreknaQudane; 11-14-2011 at 03:04 PM.
[REDACTED]
Thank you for that fairly comprehensive answer. Was very interesting to read. I see you are keeping a few special cases though from later posts. In partcular, the change to alchemical gives them a much needed damage boost versus GS.
How are handwraps being treated for this? Are alchemical handwraps going to be dice nuetral or add the multiplier?
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Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.
We may modify the bonuses based on the original damage dice, to mimic the original bonus more closely, or make one handed weapons get a different bonus from two handed (or pseudo-two handed, like the bs/da) weapons.
Greatsword and Great Crossbow end up identical.The two unchanged... Shuriken and ... Great Crossbow?
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What do you think of displaying the eSOS this way:
Epic Sword of Shadow
Base stats:
Greatsword
2d6
Mutations:
Adamantine
+10
'Augmented Base Damage: x2.5' - This weapon does 250% of base damage. This does not affect extra damage from Strength or other sources.
'Augmented Critical: 18/x3' - This weapon threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18 and crits for triple damage instead of the usual. This effect stacks with Improved Critical and similar effects.
(slots as at present)
I think that would be the clearest way to adjust it. Also, for Alchemical weapons, you could give the strong weapon types 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.6' and the weaker base weapons such as Longswords 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.8'. It's totally unambiguous, and it also makes it clear that the weapon has a special crit profile when it might otherwise not be immediately noticed (e.g. level 20 Cutthroat's Smallblade).
Oh and if you do anything to Nightforge weapons, please consider adding more drop sources of Adamantine Ore...
Last edited by sirgog; 11-14-2011 at 04:08 PM.