Traps doing redonkulous damage on elite.

[bobbryan2]

Interesting feedback, folks.

Thank you for thoughtful responses.

Again.. I actually like hard traps. You know what traps are brutal on elite? The intermittant spike traps in Tomb of the Unhallowed. I've seen things go pear-shaped in an instant with those. But even without a rogue, those traps won't cause a party wipe to a careful party... At most, a death.

The ones I have a real problem with are the ones you 'have' to get through. Then it's no longer a challenge. It's a numbers game. Can I get enough hp to power through the trap in Co6 part 9? Will my hireling completely disregard her stay stationary command and run in the trap to heal me, dying in the process?

Those impassible traps have their DCs way too high...

Those don't add anything to the game but frustration in my view.

[The_Phenx]

I'm not complaining I should be able to disable the traps, but I did have most of the things one can get at that level on search, including buffs. What else could I get? Shroud item with +6 to INT skills, skill boost, +3 exceptional bonus to INT and +6 to INT shroud weapon (needed 1 more level for that), search +13 item with RR, improved search enhancements.

Yeah, I could have all that. But I didn't and like I said before, perhaps some traps are designed to be tackled only by noone but the most specialized in traps.


Oh, and about avoiding the traps, yes I know you can avoid them. But it's not easy and I believe playing with a high'ish latency doesn't help either (150ms). I did get the all the traps except the one I couldn't find.

I know you were buffed. I see other folks have answered my thots already, but a lot of times its only 1 or two skill points away. do you have any search enhancements?

DD and OL are effected by rolls where search isnt (god only knows why because it should be) so its the one skill you really have to build to be an effective rogue.

And I mean really think about it. Its the depository for all of House Kundarak's loot, Dwarves, the traps are supposed to be kinda rediculous.

[The_Phenx]

Interesting feedback, folks.

Thank you for thoughtful responses.

The only place I would suggest fixing this flimsy is in those situations where "traps" are unvoidable.

LIKE TITAN.

For some reason the thrall gunners scale with trap damage making an elite titan run even close to the right level close to impossible.

And of course you have to run thru them, there is no disarming.

[Sarisa]

I only have problems with traps that are completely
Unavoidable - Can't dodge them, or time them, or do more fights to get around them.
Not Disablable
and do extreme AoE damage that cannot be mitigated without having evasion.

This includes the VoN3 lightning trap. IF you know where to stand, you can get hit just once, but that is still about 300 damage on a level 11 quest. Even with Protection from Energy: Electric, that will still wipe out a non-twinked non-evasive with poor reflex saves, like Clerics, Sorcerers, or pure Bards.

The fire trap at the end of ADQ1 is another case. Before u9, it would only blast people who were near the chest when it vanished. Now it blasts the whole room, which is another 300+ damage. Being a bit higher level, and rarely done above normal except on Epic Difficulty makes it a bit LESS annoying, but it's still an unavoidable and non-disablable source of damage. The ceiling sonic traps in the Bat hallway also have huge range now, but are still avoidable if you go around the outside curve of the room.

And yes, Sharn Syndicate's Repossession is brutal now, but they CAN be disabled so it's not as bad. The trap blast stretches at least halfway outside the room.

VoN5, and to a lesser extent the F2P House K quests on elite, have some very skill intensive traps. They're also brutal to undergeared players. A wizard/rogue splash is usually the best trapsmith for those, as it's quite difficult for an assassin or acrobat rogue to hit them reliably, especially on a first life without a lot of twink gear. I feel they should still be difficult, but could have the search and disable DC's go down a little bit, maybe 2-3 points, to make them a BIT more forgiving. Traps should be difficult, but not geared toward a specific PrE (Mechanic), build (Wiz/Rogue), or require extensive and expensive twinking to get (Level 60+ ship buffs, rare race required or BtA end reward trap gear, Planar Gird).

[Schmoe]

IMO there should be traps that are nigh-on impossible to disable, but that most people will survive, and also, in the same quests, some traps with low DCs that are really deadly.

Think one quest with the Sunken Parish Hard traps (extreme DC, probably won't kill you) alongside the Epic Big Top traps (easy enough to disable, will one-shot many a non-evasion character because they hit multiple times)

Currently at endgame, a 54 Search gets everything, and a 52 gets almost nothing. And almost every damaging endgame trap deals about 300-400 damage, the only real difference is between the pathetic ones that hit you once, and the deadly ones that hit you 3+ times.

Extrapolating a bit, I think there are some different categories that traps should fall into, rather than the rather generic catch-all we have now:

• Standard: Must be overcome, very difficult to find/disable, but not deadly with appropriate precautions (resists, energy protection, timing, power-healing).
  
• Guardian: Optional to overcome, very difficult to find/disable, and very deadly even with precautions. Very nice optional rewards (named loot! bypass large quest areas, etc)
  
• Roadblock: Must be overcome, fairly easy to find/disable, very deadly even with precautions.
  
• Punisher: Optional to overcome, very difficult to find/disable, not deadly with appropriate precautions. Minor optional rewards (XP, some loot)

With these categories provide enough variety that there is some incentive to develop trap skills, but the content is still largely accessible. Rogues will be optional, though still welcome, in any quests that don't have category 3 traps.

In a quest with category 3 traps, some sort of rogue will be required, but it won't require a completely tricked out trap monkey, so most anyone with a splash or most straight-DPS rogues will still be able to meet the requirements.

Trapsmiths will still often be in demand because of the extra rewards from overcoming category 1 and 4 traps. And there will be some optionals or loot for which a trapsmith will be highly sought-after and highly rewarded.

I like that elite traps kill the unprepared, even those many levels over the quest level, but I think currently elite traps scale differently than the rest of the quest.

[ARIES]

Stand in the very corner of the room near veil. It will only hit once there. Deals around 200-300 damage. At that lvl u should have 200+ hp, cast a protection from energy for -120, and its under 200 damage. Defintely survivable, by any class.

Its only deadly if you stand around the center, where it hits 2-3 times (400-600+ damage)

Still experimenting as well, but I bet there is a spot where you dont get hit at all like before, think they just moved it somewhere more tricky to find.

any advice on von5 elite trap room?

[Truga]

Dealing with the traps is pretty much a single-player game (OK, two if you have someone healing them through damage they take while attempting to disarm).

They might well enjoy their single-player game. I really don't enjoy being one of the spectators.

The fact that you pretty much need two trapsmith-capable toons to beat Epic VON5 in a reasonable timeframe (so you can split the party) is one of the main reasons few groups run it. (You can raise through the traps, but that seriously slows you down).

I think a rogue required here and there (especially on a raid where you're breaking into a highly complicated, supposedly impenetrable bank vault) isn't an all bad thing. Much like most people require two healers for pretty much any raid, why not require trappers for a raid or two..

That said, It's been said before. Make people (especially wizards) that have full points in search, dd and spot (11, since they're cc), with an epic utility vest and epic cove spyglass hit at least _some_ epic traps. The ones in the lightning hall in von5 are a good start, for example. Rogues (or rogue splashes) will still have a much easier job due to evasion and not needing epic items to do these things, but at least you have an alternative for when you can't get a rogue.

Also, artificers might mitigate the trapper issue. Also since INT is one of their main stats, people might now actually stop making "trapmonkey rogues" that are built "only for traps" and start building rogues with survivability and dps!

[Truga]

any advice on von5 elite trap room?

Which one? If you mean lightning hall, alternate between sides. A control panel on one side disables blades on the other side of the hall. If you alternate you can literally disable the entire thing without even making a save against the blades, and lightning is highly reducable via resist/protection.

The other traps usually have control panels in places so that you're not getting hit by anything when searching for/disabling the control panel. Jamming yourself into a wall/corner where the box is usually puts you just out of range of any blades. Spot helps loads if it's your first run.

[Sarisa]

Which one? If you mean lightning hall, alternate between sides. A control panel on one side disables blades on the other side of the hall. If you alternate you can literally disable the entire thing without even making a save against the blades, and lightning is highly reducable via resist/protection.

The other traps usually have control panels in places so that you're not getting hit by anything when searching for/disabling the control panel. Jamming yourself into a wall/corner where the box is usually puts you just out of range of any blades. Spot helps loads if it's your first run.

Right. For the Lightning hall, start on the right passage, and the first box will be on the inner wall of the first lightning trap, closest to the Shrine. Just time your jump to avoid the spinning blades. All the other traps can be disabled by alternating sides as Truga mentioned, and the only hazard is the electric. If you don't have +30 electrical resists, and someone doesn't cast it on you, just talk to Dirge of Karrnath, and he'll give you a shield with +30 Lightning resistance that you can temporarily wear.

For the west path, when you get to the section with a "split" and a wall between, where the slicing blades are, you want to go to the right side, all the way up against the wall. The box will be there and you can disable it without getting sliced to bits. You will still have to pass through it, and the save DC is extremely high. Have as much temp HP as you possibly can to try to mitigate save failures.

For the trapped chest on the right side, just disable the five boxes. The lightning only hits if you open the chest.

For the final section before Arach, the doors can be Knocked from afar, and there is a box on the right hand side of the farthest door. You will have to stand inside the trap to disable it, or to open the door, but as long as you don't roll a 1, you should be fine as long as your reflex save is high enough.

[Truga]

For the final section before Arach, the doors can be Knocked from afar, and there is a box on the right hand side of the farthest door. You will have to stand inside the trap to disable it, or to open the door, but as long as you don't roll a 1, you should be fine as long as your reflex save is high enough.

In my experience, this one can also be disabled by jamming yourself into the wall where the box itself is, without having to stand inside the trap's area of effect, thus avoiding interrupts/damage. But yeah, if someone knocks the door, opening it shouldn't be a problem with a good reflex save. Opening the door also shuts the trap down.

[NytCrawlr]

Because we need to tune the rest of the experience up to be on par with traps, there are just more important things right now.

Now granted, this my own oh-so-humble opinion, but I find myself having the most fun playing a game - any game, be it table top RPG, computer, board, whatever - by how hard it makes me work to win.

If I only died twice during the dungeon run... I'm not dying hard enough.

Some people don't like to play hard. That's why we have 'normal'.

Totally agreed here. It would be nice if the traps were a bit more dangerous across the board IMO, and not just on elite. Forcing or not, this is a group game, and there should be a trap smith as part of that equation, whether it be a rogue, or something with just rogue splash.

I find it a little disappointing when I can just jump over the traps, etc. with the right timing and not have to worry about them. Instead they should make us sweat and make us want a trap-smith of some kind.

I also agree however that this should probably be more for the hard and elite settings, elite already in game, of a particular dungeon as Casual and Normal are more for the soloer.

[SableShadow]

In my experience, this one can also be disabled by jamming yourself into the wall where the box itself is, without having to stand inside the trap's area of effect, thus avoiding interrupts/damage. But yeah, if someone knocks the door, opening it shouldn't be a problem with a good reflex save. Opening the door also shuts the trap down.

If you time it just so, you used to be able to do a "jump/ff/open" and get it open before taking a blade hit.

We did that when Epics traps had stupid high reflex saves, a couple times when eVoNs first came out...very brute force approach, but it can be done.

[Emili]

No, I think that the traps are hitting too hard. The penalty for failing to dodge or disarm the trap, or to bring a rogue, has a severity that is not in line with the rest of the difficulty of the quest. The problem lies specifically with the traps, but generally with the balance of elite difficulty.

I can get through 90% traps on any difficulty without a rogue on some of the gimpiest built toons in the game... use of mario type antics if need be.

Either turn down the damage on the traps, or turn up the rest of the quest so that elite is actually the realm for groups only, on par with quests that absolutely require multiple people for levers/buttons. Even then I wouldn't think its good design, in a game as variable as DDO, to force groups to bring a specific ability(in this case, trap disarming) in order to progress. Because then instead of allowing players to make choices, the game is forcing it on them.

I agree they should adjust the rest of the obstacles (the mob) up a tad...

I'm curious why you think this. I could understand if such traps could be avoided with a different type of penalty if you decided not to deal with them, such as additional enemies, less loot, being forced to take the long way around, or turning off the trap with some ridiculous puzzle, etc. Or if the ability to disable traps was available to every class of every build, similar to how deathblock/deathward is available to everyone to prevent instant death spells. In all honesty, a rogue hireling solves all of this. I'm not sure why Turbine has limited them to TP purchase only, since you can get every other style of hireling(and thus every other role) without spending TP.

90% of the traps in game may be avoided... I do not know how many people I've tried to show such to but even "rogues" do not pay attention.

I don't want you to think that I'm outright disagreeing with you. In fact, I'm curious what you mean by 'dodging' traps. The first part of my reply is aimed mainly at game design theory and how I think DDO is failing in this one small area(the rest of the game is incredible!) But I'm also still learning alot about the game; trying to find out if there are other ways around the traps on elite.

Most all high powered traps you can find the safe spots around them. timing and movement (running, jumping) will get you around them.

You mentioned 'dodging' traps, can you explain the fundamentals of doing it? From what I've seen the network code of DDO is a bit off. Even with a ping under 100ms(averaging around 70) with no dropped packets I often see mobs warping, blade traps hitting me long after I've cleared them, etc. I've tried correctly timing my movements through them, inching forward to get them to go off when I'm out of range, and jumping over(this is the most successful).

You're already discovering such... go back and play some more go learn first hand.

I've also wondered why trap locations aren't random. I understand it has something to do with the coding of the dungeons.

Early dungeons were all static... it is the instance engine design they use. There are no random generation and even those quests which appear to have some random aspects ... really do not, they select from multiple instance designs of the same quest.

It sounds alot like a circular problem. If you want rogues to be useful and fun, traps have to super difficult. If traps are super difficult, you have to have rogues. The problem is that it makes people feel like they're forced to take a rogue instead of wanting them. A group should not require a rogue to 'save them', any more than they need any other class. That's my point in a nutshell.

Tread on shakey ground... no class in game should be a "requirement" yet at the same time all classes should add value. When you may do something completely with a single class and certain classes do a gamut of many things so well ... eventually the less resourceful classes become nothing but a flavour and useless in contribution and functionality they bring.

No,

Shade is correct in his statement. Elite is suppose to be a challenge, Elite is suppose to poise you to resort to your intuition, some strategy and force you to adjust to your skills above that which the character possess ... use the character to the best of it's tools but the greatest utility is suppose to be your knowledge and skill in use of them. Not the character itself.

If you could steamroll through elite setting it would not be very elite... and not all the content is suppose to be 100% soloable by 100% of the populace 100% of the time. Elite should be among that... and to be honest in 99% of the game it is not.

You're here arguing about a FvS and the challenge of elite - a FvS is by far the most powerful class in the game, yet I'll have you know I've favour capped much less resourceful classes - I'd say 90% at level and 90% of it "alone". 3767 on a pure fighter (wo umd), a ranger... eight favour capped toons at one time, and all the while keep thinking to myself "Something is wrong."

Yes something is Wrong! When the quests offer little challenge and risks then there is NOTHING left to the point of them outside the scope of a few pixels in the end chests. When that becomes the case the quest itself is no longer a journey nor fun and only the PiXels are. When the quest itself become irrelevant and only the end rewards have any importance we no longer have “a game.”

[krackythehoodedone]

Elite difficulty for a party and you are Soloing it..

It's supposed to be tough

They have already nerfed trap damage.

Elite Tod and Epics used to hit for thousands

And one shotted everything

Von 2 Epic used to be a mass Deathothon

We used to cry laughing at eachother for getting wasted in those traps.

But we still completed most of the time

Even Axer got killed in their (yes it's official even tho he will probably deny it)

Please dont ask for the game to be made any easier

[FlimsyFirewood]

As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

So, yeah. Die harder!

[Emili]

The only place I would suggest fixing this flimsy is in those situations where "traps" are unvoidable.

LIKE TITAN.

For some reason the thrall gunners scale with trap damage making an elite titan run even close to the right level close to impossible.

And of course you have to run thru them, there is no disarming.

It's a lot easier for a group now than it had been for some time. Of course when it first came out it was easier still... when they went off the boards a few years back to 1k+ damage was nearly impossible as those were hitting for 400 to 500 at the time... and even those with evassion played with fire - literally.

[Truga]

As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

So, yeah. Die harder!

Well, that's no more normal for me. Hard in the harder quests, elite in the easier ones :V

What happens if you stack 3 hard and 3 elite?

[Coldin]

As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

So, yeah. Die harder!

*blink blink* Wow. I like this change.

Hopefully you made the difficulty scale up a bit too.

((Edit: Though the whole "Run quest 5 times" is probably more geared towards TRing characters, than people going through their first life. Power levelers will love this. Shadow Crypt anyone?))

[dragons1ayer74]

As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

So, yeah. Die harder!

Very nice.

[sirgog]

As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

So, yeah. Die harder!

/droooool

That is all.