Monk Shintao PRE

[Fafnir]

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but so far, Shintao has gone from weak to also weak. It's barely different flavours of weak.

It's like they forgot what was wrong with the PRE in the first place. Shintao is way down on both damage AND survivability.

AC is nice and all but doesn't do enough for the monk, particularly given the Ninja Spy gets the Incorporeality benefit which is far more than 6 AC will give 99% of the monk population.

The Smite Evil and Dismissing Strike needs a big overhaul, or more needs to be added. The Smite Evil needs to not only give a to hit bonus but increase the crit multiplier - certainly x3 but even x4 would not be unreasonable - or a much larger increase in damage to what is currently on the table.

Dismissing Strike is a toy. Silver bypass is a toy.

[Eladrin]

Last line of the enhancement. Hmm, does that mean last line of the PRE chain? Or just the last line of the description of the third tier? I could take it to mean either way.

That's just the last sentence. I didn't want to post the whole thing yet.

Focusing the PrE on the material type bonuses is not right.

It's a secondary benefit of the PrE.

The PrE focuses on defeating "unnatural" creatures - aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders' (basically, anything that's extraplanar and isn't an Inevitable, Formian, Modron, or level 20 monk - it does work on devils and angels - get off my plane!), and undead.

And by a hell of a lot more, you should read DAMAGE, Eladrin...

Pure damage focus is the dark path's strength. It should be better at that. The light path is more about buffs and CC.

The Ninja will probably do more damage, but the Shintao Monk will be much better at increasing the damage of the group as a whole, or stunning creatures, with abilities like this (gained at Tier II):

Shintao Monk: Jade Strike
Cost: 10 Ki
Benefit: You perform a melee attack that is anathema to tainted creatures, that increases their physical damage vulnerability by 10% and reduces their fortification by 25%. A successful Will save negates this effect (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability only functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead, and counts as a Light move. Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations or undead receive double this effect. On critical hits, a tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate.

Would you mind saying what will happen with Kyosho's band?

"This set item bonus allows your unarmed attacks to bypass Good and Evil damage reduction."

Yeah, kind of ironic that the ToD combo of choice for all DPS melees is the shintao monk set.

The damage bonus on that set is a little unfortunate, but we're not planning on changing it.

Edit:
Additional note: For "tainted creatures" definition purposes, "Non-Lawful Outsider Extraplanar creatures" means "things that are extraplanar on Eberron" - if you follow them back to their home plane, they still count.

[Jamma]

Hehe. So Shintao's get taint protection?

Anyway, that sounds pretty awesome. Now I just wonder what this Protection from Tainted Creatures does. Maybe +6 to AC against certain monsters?

Probably troglodytes, they're all tainted with that stench! At level 18 you'll be able to rock the Waterworks! 18 minute protection from evil, and +6 AC.

Hmm, based on Eladrin's latest info post, despite their smell Trogs aren't actually tainted...

[Fafnir]

The only good part about what I am reading is Eladrin's excellent use of the colour green.

Hate to be frank about it, but everything else is a word game of lame.

[Wrendd]

Eladrin, Thank you very much for the response. I am getting even more excited about U7 and the Devs responses to the forum community are a very large part of that. Not just the content of the responses, but that you are taking the time to reply to us in so many different places and about so many different things. Again, Thank you.

I am quite interested in the *5* Tiers of Archmage. I am thinking it will something lke the Arcan Archers we currently have (the design, not the abilities) but it might be quite different. I do not even play casters, but it sounds very interesting.

[dkyle]

"This set item bonus allows your unarmed attacks to bypass Good and Evil damage reduction."

The damage bonus on that set is a little unfortunate, but we're not planning on changing it.

Thank you for the answer.

I don't see much use for that extra bonus in the current game. A Kyosho's ring (or the Monk's other ring) will invariably have Holy Burst on it, so the Good is already taken care of. DR/Evil is so rare currently (just Running With the Devils?). Perhaps this is a hint at content to come?

[rimble]

That's just the last sentence. I didn't want to post the whole thing yet.

Cool, I look forward to it.

It's a secondary benefit of the PrE.

I wait apprehensively.

The PrE focuses on defeating "unnatural" creatures - aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders' (basically, anything that's extraplanar and isn't an Inevitable, Formian, Modron, or level 20 monk - it does work on devils and angels - get off my plane!), and undead.

My personal opinion regarding this: I learned to particularly dislike these sort of "one off" Favored Enemy type bonuses with my Paladin KotC. For Rangers it works, because they can get 5 types of enemies and cover a wide swath of creatures. But the narrow narrow focus of KotC, and now this, well, I just find it very unappealing.

Pure damage focus is the dark path's strength. It should be better at that. The light path is more about buffs and CC.

I'd consider tossing this PrE an AoE CC. We all already have Stunning Fist, and as Dark I can already inherently Paralyze and Blind things (granted the combo needs to be built up, it's not a single button).

The Ninja will probably do more damage, but the Shintao Monk will be much better at increasing the damage of the group as a whole, or stunning creatures, with abilities like this (gained at Tier II):

Shintao Monk: Jade Strike
Cost: 10 Ki
Benefit: You perform a melee attack that is anathema to tainted creatures, that increases their physical damage vulnerability by 10% and reduces their fortification by 25%. A successful Will save negates this effect (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability only functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead, and counts as a Light move. Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations or undead receive double this effect. On critical hits, a tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate.

Yeah, this gets back to the 'creature specific' type bonuses again, I dislike them. Don't get me wrong, this looks pretty horrible for those specific creatures, I'm just jaded (pun intended!) by KotC. I hope the 'tomb of jade' looks neat...=)

"This set item bonus allows your unarmed attacks to bypass Good and Evil damage reduction."

Hmmm...well, Good doesn't matter for TOO long since you're getting your finger into a Holy Burst ring ASAP...but what has Evil that we could bypass with this now? Anyone?

The damage bonus on that set is a little unfortunate, but we're not planning on changing it.

Such is life.

I hope the buffs are strong. Buffs are universal, they don't suffer from the 'one off' Favored Enemy problem. I'm pretty addicted to Ninja Spy, but I'd really like Light Monks to be more than just ToD anti-stun-bots.

[rimble]

Ah hell, double post.

[Gol]

Hmmm...well, Good doesn't matter for TOO long since you're getting your finger into a Holy Burst ring ASAP...but what has Evil that we could bypass with this now? Anyone?

Heh, Eladrin. Not the Dev, though - the balls-o-light in Running with the Devils.

[Jamma]

That's just the last sentence. I didn't want to post the whole thing yet.
Pure damage focus is the dark path's strength. It should be better at that. The light path is more about buffs and CC.

.

Crowd control? I'm unaware of any light path only monk crowd control abilities. I know there is a dark path only monk crowd control ability.

[rimble]

Heh, Eladrin. Not the Dev, though - the balls-o-light in Running with the Devils.

Yeah, and I just realized the irony of it...if you have the set, i.e. you have the ring, then you already have Holy Burst on it...hehe...

[Eladrin]

Crowd control? I'm unaware of any light path only monk crowd control abilities. I know there is a dark path only monk crowd control ability.

Ah, that's mostly from the second-to-last sentence in the Tier III Shintao Monk...

"You gain an additional +2 to Diplomacy, Heal, and Intimidate, and the ability to expend ki to stun opponents at range or lock 'tainted' creatures (aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead) in a tomb of jade."

Edit:

Yeah, and I just realized the irony of it...if you have the set, i.e. you have the ring, then you already have Holy Burst on it...hehe...

One day you'll want to punch a smarmy Planetar in the face. It'll be nice to have then. "Look at me! I'm so shiny!"

[The_Phenx]

Better hope the baddies don't run Abbot, or they will just throw meteors... Encased... PAH!

[Drakos]

Shintao Monk: Jade Strike
Cost: 10 Ki
Benefit: You perform a melee attack that is anathema to tainted creatures, that increases their physical damage vulnerability by 10% and reduces their fortification by 25%. A successful Will save negates this effect (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability only functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead, and counts as a Light move. Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations or undead receive double this effect. On critical hits, a tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate.

Interesting post. I like the ability to reduce their Fortification. One question is does the effect stack with itself. So if you hit them twice is it a cumulative 50%?

[rimble]

One day you'll want to punch a smarmy Planetar in the face. It'll be nice to have then. "Look at me! I'm so shiny!"

Yeah...when they shine like that...reminds me of Twilight...that my wife made watch...all three...DIE EDWARD DIE! PUNCH PUNCH PUNCH!

Anyways, I guess we'll see what ya brung soon. Nothing that makes me feel too happy for the Light goodie goodie Monks yet. Chumps.

[Wrendd]

That's just the last sentence. I didn't want to post the whole thing yet.


It's a secondary benefit of the PrE.

The PrE focuses on defeating "unnatural" creatures - aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders' (basically, anything that's extraplanar and isn't an Inevitable, Formian, Modron, or level 20 monk - it does work on devils and angels - get off my plane!), and undead.


Pure damage focus is the dark path's strength. It should be better at that. The light path is more about buffs and CC.

The Ninja will probably do more damage, but the Shintao Monk will be much better at increasing the damage of the group as a whole, or stunning creatures, with abilities like this (gained at Tier II):

Shintao Monk: Jade Strike
Cost: 10 Ki
Benefit: You perform a melee attack that is anathema to tainted creatures, that increases their physical damage vulnerability by 10% and reduces their fortification by 25%. A successful Will save negates this effect (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability only functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead, and counts as a Light move. Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations or undead receive double this effect. On critical hits, a tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate.


"This set item bonus allows your unarmed attacks to bypass Good and Evil damage reduction."


The damage bonus on that set is a little unfortunate, but we're not planning on changing it.

Edit:
Additional note: For "tainted creatures" definition purposes, "Non-Lawful Outsider Extraplanar creatures" means "things that are extraplanar on Eberron" - if you follow them back to their home plane, they still count.

Rimble: I tend to agree that "one off" powers are a problem, but the Shintao does not quite feel like that to me. The bonus will work against aberations, undead and all outsiders that are NOT Lawful, so demons (so far). That apears to be a decent amount of stuff to me. Of course it will be ineffective in the shroud and amrath, which does kind of stink.

I also look at Eladrin's post and notice where she stated that the Shintao (light path) focuses more on party buffs, so I am hopeful that they will get some improved party buffs at the other tiers, and again, I hope that protection from evil is changed to something useful (or if you keep it something else needs to be added, it is simply a wated ability).

ps. If I read that right.... aren't beholders extrplanar abberations?

[rimble]

Interesting post. I like the ability to reduce their Fortification.

Yaknow Dark-Dark-Dark Finisher already does that? And it's not restricted by creature type. These PrE changes confuse me.

[Coldin]

Physical Damage vulnerability? You're doing this on purpose, aren't you Eladrin? Throwing crazy things out there that make me speculate!

[Eladrin]

Rimble: I tend to agree that "one off" powers are a problem, but the Shintao does not quite feel like that to me. The bonus will work against aberations, undead and all outsiders that are NOT Lawful, so demons (so far). That apears to be a decent amount of stuff to me. Of course it will be ineffective in the shroud and amrath, which does kind of stink.

It works on devils - it's specifically the Lawful Neutral array of outsiders that it won't function on (plus level 20 monks that become Lawful Outsiders regardless of alignment).

ps. If I read that right.... aren't beholders extrplanar abberations?

Most beholders are just aberrations, but that qualifies as tainted. Doomspheres are undead, but that also qualifies as tainted.

If a beholder just came over from Xoriat, it should be an extraplanar aberration.

Physical Damage vulnerability? You're doing this on purpose, aren't you Eladrin? Throwing crazy things out there that make me speculate!

Yeah, that's new. Bludgeon/Pierce/Slash vulnerability modifiers. That also works on spells that deal those sorts of damage, like Blade Barrier or Ice Storm.

[rimble]

Rimble: I tend to agree that "one off" powers are a problem, but the Shintao does not quite feel like that to me. The bonus will work against aberations, undead and all outsiders that are NOT Lawful, so demons (so far). That apears to be a decent amount of stuff to me. Of course it will be ineffective in the shroud and amrath, which does kind of stink.

A significant portion of end game is Epic now too. That's what enticed me about KotC...+LotsOfDamage versus Evil Outsiders, heck yeah, gonna rock end game...oh, end game isn't about Evil Outsiders anymore? Well, ****...

I also look at Eladrin's post and notice where she stated that the Shintao (light path) focuses more on party buffs, so I am hopeful that they will get some improved party buffs at the other tiers, and again, I hope that protection from evil is changed to something useful (or if you keep it something else needs to be added, it is simply a wated ability).

Yeah, some healthy buffs would be nice. Like I said, they're generally universally useful.

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to rally the forces against Shintao. I'm not even a power-gaming max-Strength DPS-uberalles RAWR RAWR RAWR type of guy...but Shintao, I just don't get it. I'm looking forward to seeing how people work with it and I hope it makes the Light chumps at least satisfied, and preferably happy.