Ranged Attack Speed and Kiting

[Aesop]

Do you want monsters to fire back 5 times as fast too? How about a hasted orger with multishot at a 200% ranged correction speed boost? If we get it so should they. Personally I don't want to see mobs shooting 10 arrows per second at me.

Actually NPC archers have been shown to fire faster than PC Archers...

oh and they can arch their shots to hit you across the map.

they also all have the Arcane Archer PrE (infinite arrows)

and they have target leading capabilities


also <insert obligatory Ranged Combat Rant>


Aesop

[Borror0]

My, and others, suggestion has been to turn Manyshot into a togglable stance, with appropriate penalties to attack while in that stance. That would be -8 when firing 3 additional arrows.

No, that's not an appropriate penalty.

We are talking about a 400% improvement to DPS here, and there is no way that -8 to-hit could really balance for that. If you absolutely want to follow the 3.5 D&D progression for the number of arrows, a better penalty would be a rate of fire reduction. Overall, the DPS would still improve but it would keep the total DPS in check. Also, you would want to increase the cost each time you gain an arrow so that the DPS difference between the two levels is not astronomical.

(Btw Borror, while they did add a +25% RoF increase, that is for pure-class Rangers only, and does not help archery as a whole. Though, it does prove that sheer technical issues in regards to lag and server load must be no longer an issue.)

This brings us back to one of my Master of Archery rants: if you found a way to deal with some of the technical issues that prevented you to increase the ranged brate of fire, it would be better to increase everyone's capped rate of fire by 20% and let Master of Archery grant the last 5%.

Do you want monsters to fire back 5 times as fast too? How about a hasted orger with multishot at a 200% ranged correction speed boost? If we get it so should they. Personally I don't want to see mobs shooting 10 arrows per second at me.

Codog has already stated that monsters and players work on different rules.

I'm not sure why you're making this argument.

[Angelus_dead]

Once implemented, ranged DPS should be increased to the level of TWF or maybe a tad higher.

Bringing ranged up to the rate of TWF would be a lot too powerful, as it would obviously be unfair to the TWF characters who had to go through the effort of obtaining double copies of their weaponry. And it would get even worse in those situations where ranged combat is advisable for other reasons (mobs who are somehow difficult to get close to)

The preferred end goal would be for a ranged character to have steady-state DPS that's clearly a step below melee, but to make up for that with a superior aggro-response against typical monsters (along with the other benefits of being able to quickly attack a new target without needing to travel to it). That means against the usual melee mob, an archer would pull much less aggro than his DPS would indicate, because the mob knows his ability to attack an archer is lower.

For example, if we're fighting a Troll and the CE Monk is doing 100 DPS, a TWF Rogue who came and did 200 DPS would easily pull aggro. But a ranged Ranger who did 200 DPS would not, because the Troll would be coded to have a ranged aggro-preference ratio of under 50% (If the Ranger got to where the Troll could hit him in melee, though, that ratio wouldn't apply and it would immediately hit him)

Note that (depending on how well kiting still works) this could lead to players determining that a ranged party really needs at least one melee guy to hold monster attention. That's a desirable outcome.

[Borror0]

Bringing ranged up to the rate of TWF would be a lot too powerful, as it would obviously be unfair to the TWF characters who had to go through the effort of obtaining double copies of their weaponry.

A better approach to deal with that problem is to make one handed weapons more easy to find than ranged or two-handed weapons.

Balancing a fighting style based on the amount of grind required to achieve the maximum potential is poor design, IMO. Rather, you should find a way to balance the grind so that no fighting style has a significantly harder time finding the gear to reach their maximum potential.

The preferred end goal would be for a ranged character to have steady-state DPS that's clearly a step below melee, but to make up for that with a superior aggro-response against typical monsters (along with the other benefits of being able to quickly attack a new target without needing to travel to it). That means against the usual melee mob, an archer would pull much less aggro than his DPS would indicate, because the mob knows his ability to attack an archer is lower.

I don't see what's in there to make ranged combat attractive.

To me, that would only lead to something like:
Player 1: LOL, you play a ranged character!!
Player 2: ya, ranged has less threat so I have lower chance to steal aggro from the tank
Player 1: LOL!!! L2P, n00b. Once you know how to play, roll a real toon that has good DPS.
Player 2: QQ

Well, unless you prevent tanks from being able to generate additional aggro. But, if you do that, either all DPS toons will be underpowered since they will get aggro, be a drain on the healer and cause party wipes or ranged will remain underpowered because there is nothing attractive in reducing the damage taken.

Am I not realizing something?

[Angelus_dead]

A better approach to deal with that problem is to make one handed weapons more easy to find than ranged or two-handed weapons.

That would be a difficult and extreme change, and also insufficient.

Even ignoring the acquisition of weapons, a TWF character is still "working harder" at doing damage, so he should get more out of it.

Rather, you should find a way to balance the grind so that no fighting style has a significantly harder time finding the gear to reach their maximum potential.

You've probably seen many games that do that in a trivial way, by supplying TWF weapons in indivisible pairs that are no different than a greataxe for inventory purposes.

Am I not realizing something?

Maybe you're not considering that ranged would be situationally higher DPS whenever it takes nontrivial time to reach a monster. That's understandable because currently that situation is indeed rare, what with the crazy-fast running speed players have.

But one thing to keep in mind is that once ranged combat has been buffed to have a reasonable percentage of melee DPS, the devs can do things like introduce mobs who actually kite the players...

[Borror0]

That would be a difficult and extreme change, and also insufficient.

It does not need to be equal but at least much closer.

Right now, the grind is twice longer. By changing the drop rates of each weapon type, you could achieve some sort of balance between the availability of each weapon type. It can't be perfect, but it does not need to.

Even ignoring the acquisition of weapons, a TWF character is still "working harder" at doing damage, so he should get more out of it.

When you say "working harder", I assume that you mean "working to not get aggro".

If so, I disagree with that.

All that I can see this leading to make of ranged a fighting style for less skilled players that is entirely deserted by highly skilled gamers who can manage their aggro. Thus, in the eyes of the top end gamers, ranged would still be underpowered. Also, it could be that TWF would be underpowered for less skilled players.

Maybe you're not considering that ranged would be situationally higher DPS whenever it takes nontrivial time to reach a monster.

As you said, those are rare and I don't see that changing any time soon.

If DDO's content design was to change and make that a more frequent reality, I would agree with you but how often that happens?

the devs can do things like introduce mobs who actually kite the players...

I can see how that advantages the ranged characters but how often can they pull that off without it becoming simply frustrating and unfun?

[Monkey_Archer]

the devs can do things like introduce mobs who actually kite the players...

Interesting... let enemy archers do what player archers currently do...

Besides the obvious of trying to kill the buggers being extremely annoying and unfun..
it would give a reason to use a ranged weapon against them instead of chaising endlessly.

Alternatively, I think it would be better to allow players to imitate enemy archer AI instead. ie. shoot faster, but cant move while shooting. maybe as a stance that can be toggled...hmmm deja vu...

[Angelus_dead]

To me, that would only lead to something like:
Player 1: LOL, you play a ranged character!!
Player 2: ya, ranged has less threat so I have lower chance to steal aggro from the tank
Player 1: LOL!!! L2P, n00b. Once you know how to play, roll a real toon that has good DPS.

If ranged had TWF-level DPS (per your statement), then that implies THF has less DPS than ranged, so that same exchange would happen except starting with "LOL you play a greataxe character!!"

And that would be pretty bad.

Note that melee combat styles have a 100% DPS penalty when the enemy is outside of melee reach, while ranged keeps going at full power regardless of that positioning. Therefore if they have equal DPS when beating on a monster, that means ranged will have more DPS overall.

Or suppose ranged has 15% less DPS in the steady-state slugfest; but they get 2 shots in before monsters make it to melee distance. That means that if a monster survives fewer than 13 shots ranged actually has more DPS. Only sturdier mobs would allow the melee style's higher sustained DPS to make up for the damage he didn't get at the beginning of the encounter. (As already mentioned, DDO's combination of room size and running speed makes it a rarity for melee to be outside of reach for a substantial time, but stuff like kiting mobs could drastically change that)

There's a game design principle "Mixing beats Massing". Ideally, a party with both melee and ranged combatants would be superior to either kind of homogenous group.

[Angelus_dead]

When you say "working harder", I assume that you mean "working to not get aggro".

That's part of it, but I also mean a variety of things, the most important being the requirement to use WASD movement to maintain basing, as compared to the ranged guy who can stand there and occasionally hit Tab to engage a new enemy.

Thus, in the eyes of the top end gamers, ranged would still be underpowered. Also, it could be that TWF would be underpowered for less skilled players.

But if ranged had the same DPS as TWF, it would be hard to justify going TWF.

Note that "skill cap" is an established obstacle for game designers, and frequently discussed: Game balance is hard, but game balance that remains the same when both sides change their skill levels is much harder.

I can see how that advantages the ranged characters but how often can they pull that off without it becoming simply frustrating and unfun?

The key to avoiding it being frustrating is to ensure that the improvements to ranged combat also apply to characters without any specialization in ranged weapons. That means that if a falchion guy is being kited by a Tiefling Ranger, he can actually change to throwing axe without completely abandoning his DPS.

(You'd additionally want the process of toggling between melee and ranged weapons to attack opponents at corresponding distances to be made faster and possibly more automatic than it is now. A melee person who decides to use ranged attacks against a kiting enemy shouldn't be punished too heavily in terms of potential future DPS lost by the delay of changing back to his falchion)

[moorewr]

On the movement while firing tip - I think slowing like a caster during the act of shooting is appropriate - and would provide a (sort of) reason to take shot on the run.

My preferred solution for Manyshot is a toggle that expends charges like Smite Evil. Thus you would start every fight with a charge or two, but would not be able to continue to manyshot until the charges regenerated. That would be much more organic than the current timer.

I agree that except in a few cases (pulling, paralyzing targets while zerging) it is true that the party should be all-melee or all-ranged. I'd love to see an all-repeater party go to town with wounding repeaters etc. Talk about FPS-style gaming.

[Coldin]

Regarding Borror's comment about the proposed Manyshot penalities, I disagree. A -8 penalty on every attack is not an insignificant penalty, one I bet many ranged builds will have difficulty overcoming when faced at level-appropriate content. That being said...if it's proven to be too powerful, they could always increase the penalties associated with it. But...if it is at the point where one is missing half their shots by using a 4-arrow manyshot...then the balance is probably about right.

RoF as a whole, I'd probably like to see it at, or just below current sword and board attack rates. Bringing it to TWF speed would be just broken, because archers really are just safer than most melee characters.

In some ways...I actually do like moorewr's suggestions about making Manyshot more akin to smite evil. One gets so many uses per day, and has to wait for a use to recharge, which could be the standard 90 seconds. But the upside would be getting about 2 uses per day, so if an archer preferred, they could expend both Manyshots straight away and then have to wait for them to come back. Though...increasing the amount of times per day might make it broken, so I can't really see going beyond 2 times per day. It's an interesting thought at least.

[wolfy42]

Ranged damage when specialized naturally does less then 1/2 the damage of melee specialized when you factor everything in. It's actually a bit less later on once you get GTWF then half in fact.

Thing is with many shot you multiply that damage by 4x.....meaning even if the TWF character was in melee constantly hitting (not having to run after monsters/switch targets etc) the ranged character would do more damage.

Now it's true you would only do that 20% of the time......but you still have the advantage of instantly switching targets the rest of the time, and with improved precise shot you can often hit multiple targets as well...boosting damage significantly.

In many ways top end Many shot seems a bit over powered for DDO...and most importantly it holds back alternative improvements to ranged combat because doing so will make manyshot even more over the top.

With all the increases to damage possible in mod 9....already manyshot has zoomed ahead in pure DPS vs most other types of attacks (other then a spamming Sorc probably).

I think the solution would be to simply change how many shot works all together. Manyshot instead should simply give 2 shots a pop all the time...(like dual wielding) for a -2 AB penalty. Also it is only in affect if your stationary, any movement at all knocks you out of manyshot stance...and it takes a few seconds of standing still to drop back into it (might even be a toggle you have to click on that movement disrupts).

This would increase ranged damage universally to be something similar to melee damage...once you get many shot, but it would prevent the huge burst DPS that you can currently get. The additional attack speed you get for higher BAB could be in place of the additional arrows you can fire in traditional D&D.

I will say that fighters by lvl 6 start to really rock with ranged damage in mod 9 if they specialize. You can't get bow strength till lvl 6....but at that point you have some serious bonuses to your ranged damage....and a manyshot/haste action boost combo that can be extremely deadly. With the current setup it is certainly something people might consider playing....and boosting it's effectiveness anymore would be overkill in my opinion at least.

A lvl 6 kensie specialized fighter (especially an elf) is >>>> then a lvl 6 ranger currently in mod 9 at ranged damage.

The main problem with switching manyshot to work constantly would be that at lvl 6 fighters would become insanely powerful if they specialize in ranged combat. In fact you would probably do more damage then TWF constantly at that point (considering you get 2 shots a pop constantly).

Perhaps as mentioned above we could have manyshot work like TWF ...and add combos to ranged attacks? Manyshot at lvl 6 would add another arrow every other bow attack....manyshot at lvl 12 would add another arrow for every attack?

[Borror0]

If ranged had TWF-level DPS (per your statement), then that implies THF has less DPS than ranged, so that same exchange would happen except starting with "LOL you play a greataxe character!!"

And that would be pretty bad.

I agree that it would be bad but I didn't mean for THF to be necessarily lower than TWF. Sorry for the confusion.

There should be a difference other than aesthetic between those two, for sure, but I don't mean for THF to be inferior to TWF in every ways. I only used TWF because I was worried that some would be confused if I also used THF, since THF is currently inferior to TWF in every way unless one can't make the Dex fit in.

As already mentioned, DDO's combination of room size and running speed makes it a rarity for melee to be outside of reach for a substantial time, but stuff like kiting mobs could drastically change that

It would also require for there to be that kind of mobs in each raid's most difficult part, as otherwise ranged characters would be left out of party compositions.

Ideally, a party with both melee and ranged combatants would be superior to either kind of homogenous group.

I don't understand how that would lead to more interesting gameplay. Mind elaborating?

But if ranged had the same DPS as TWF, it would be hard to justify going TWF.

If the aggro system remains unchanged, yes, but if it is changed like I suggested it might not be.

Under what I suggested, it would be easier for ranged to steal aggro from mobs that have solid ranged attacks or damaging spells so they would not be safer in the end. As a matter of fact, TWF would be safer (but not totally safe) because the tank protects the TWF character better since they are both using the same damage type (ie melee damage).

If that's not enough, you can always put more adds and make being hit to be more disruptive to a ranged character DPS, therefore forcing them to kite until someone can steal aggro from him and kiting would of course yield lower DPS output.

[krud]

I believe this has been suggested quite a few times before, but I feel it deserves bringing back up again. Ranged attack speed is so low, that even if a character is specialized in that style it is largely unfun and uneffective compared to melee. .....

fixed it for you

/totally-agree-with-the-rest-of-your-post.

[Borror0]

Regarding Borror's comment about the proposed Manyshot penalities, I disagree. A -8 penalty on every attack is not an insignificant penalty, one I bet many ranged builds will have difficulty overcoming when faced at level-appropriate content.

An elf ranger can have something like:

18 base+6 item+3 Exceptional+3 tome+5 enhancement+5 level= 40 Dex

Then, when you factor everything you happen to have:
20 BAB
+15 Dex
+5 weapon
-8 Many Shot
+2 Favored Attack
34

On the other hand, you would have a melee ranger:
20 BAB
+13 Str
+5 weapon
-5 Power attack
+2 Favored Attack
35

Do you see a problem?

[Angelus_dead]

Regarding Borror's comment about the proposed Manyshot penalities, I disagree. A -8 penalty on every attack is not an insignificant penalty, one I bet many ranged builds will have difficulty overcoming when faced at level-appropriate content.

It's only a little worse than the -5 toggle penalty that virtually every melee character accepts without even thinking about it. And quite a lot of Barbarians and Warforged willingly increase their Power Attack penalty to -8 in exchange for just a few percent extra damage.

For a character to obtain +100% more damage in exchange for each -2 attack penalty is blatantly overpowered, unless her damage was already pitiful to begin with.

[Angelus_dead]

On the other hand, you would have a melee ranger:
20 BAB
+13 Dex

If the melee ranger uses finesse, he could have just as much dex as the archery guy.

[Borror0]

If the melee ranger uses finesse, he could have just as much dex as the archery guy.

Oops. Copy/pasted and didn't realize that. I meant Strength.

[Angelus_dead]

It would also require for there to be that kind of mobs in each raid's most difficult part, as otherwise ranged characters would be left out of party compositions.

Even today's very weak ranged characters aren't really excluded from raids. But that's because the raids are pretty easy. However, consider a tougher raid like Shroud Elite: many people would find it a lot easier if they could trade -20% outgoing DPS on a character for -100% incoming melee damage.

A lag of 10-20% DPS behind the melee styles won't get anyone left out of groups, so long as it comes with benefits in safety and (sometimes) convenience. You already see a difference of more than 10% between melee DPS characters today, and most players don't bother with it.

I don't understand how that would lead to more interesting gameplay. Mind elaborating?

To elaborate would be time consuming, so I'll just say: Variety and Verisimilitude.

Under what I suggested, it would be easier for ranged to steal aggro from mobs that have solid ranged attacks or damaging spells so they would not be safer in the end.

If a ranged character is safer from melee mobs and equally-vulnerable to caster/ranged mobs, then he's safer overall.

An elf ranger can have something like:
Then, when you factor everything you happen to have:
20 BAB
+15 Dex
...
On the other hand, you would have a melee ranger:
20 BAB
+13 Str

Why does the melee guy have a lower strength than the archer has dex? Did he forget Rage + Madstone + Madstone?

[Borror0]

However, consider a tougher raid like Shroud Elite: many people would find it a lot easier if they could trade -20% outgoing DPS on a character for -100% incoming melee damage.

That's true for Elite Shroud, because of massive AoE melee damage that can't be avoided.

It's less true for Vision, where skills help to avoid a lot of the damage.

If a ranged character is safer from melee mobs and equally-vulnerable to caster/ranged mobs, then he's safer overall.

He'd not be equally-vulnerable vulnerable to caste/ranged mobs. As I said, he would be more prone to steal get their aggro.

Why does the melee guy have a lower strength than the archer has dex? Did he forget Rage + Madstone + Madstone?

Yes, he did.