Sneak Attack, Fortification, Blanket Immunities, and You

[Timjc86]

I would definitely like to give some serious thought to sneak attack changes, and specifically how fortification and immunities affect sneak attack. I'd be very interested in hearing what other players think about this and would love to see some dev input as well.



*** Back story - feel free to skip ***

I think my first three or so DDO characters were rogues. I loved it. The sneaking, the damage, I was convinced I had found my class. That all changed with Delera's.
Fast-forward a few years later and I'm back from a long hiatus to give DDO another shot. I start up another rogue and run into the same issues. I asked here on the forums for some suggestions and one of the replies was a 1 rogue / rest ranger build. I got my 1750 favor, rolled up the character, and never looked back until Assassin II.

On my rogue, I hated being useless against undead and constructs - not just less useful, but useless. On my ranger, I hated being able to find all the traps but not being able to do anything else about them. A 15/1 split was perfect. He's a beast in combat regardless of what he is fighting and he can take care of most of the traps and locks as well.

I have had a lot of fun with my assassin (rogue 15 / fighter 1 - 19/1 @ 20 cap). But I still cannot stand fighting things like undead, elementals and such. So...



*** Real Discussion - Back story's over ***

I honestly don't think it would be overpowering to grant a line of feats or enhancements - or heck, even innately grant some way for rogues to bypass fortification and sneak attack immunities. It certainly doesn't have to be 100%; I would be very happy even with a reduction in fortification (ie a % chance to get sneak attacks, kind of like Harry/Sally now).

Even going with a strength-based rogue isn't enough to offset the bonuses that other melee classes get. Sneak attack is something that is currently inherently necessary for a rogue to be combat-effective. I don't think that's necessarily bad but when combined with blanket sneak attack immunities it can get disheartening.

Something like this currently exists for constructs with the Wrack Construct enhancement line, but there are some issues I have:

• These could get very expensive very quickly if there were separate enhancement lines for constructs, undead, elementals, fortification, etc. It needs to be one line for everything or not enhancement based.
  
  
• A clicky for every type of mob would require a fair bit of hotbar and button-mashing management. Again, it needs to be one line for everything.
  
  
• WC isn't terribly effective at end game. My assassin has a decent intelligence for a rogue. Even so, in 4-5 Shroud runs, I have seen WC land against the portals an average of one-two times (0 in two runs, 3 in one run). Now he's not wearing a 6 intelligence item and he's not using a cursespewer, but there are a lot of portals and he is spamming WC as soon as it's off cooldown - such a low frequency is just not acceptable. Who knew stationary portals were so nimbly-bimbly?

So what are some solutions?

• A single enhancement line for all types of sneak attack immunities and fortification. There could be a few ways to implement this:
  
  
  • Mirror the current implementation of Wrack Construct: have a single clicky with a ~6 second cooldown that deals some extra damage and has a DC that when failed provides a chance to get sneak attacks for the duration of the effect.
    
    
  • Get rid of the bonus damage in favor of a higher DC save.
    
    
  • Get rid of the clicky and have the save inherently apply to all rogue attacks.
    
    
  • Get rid of the save altogether. Just make it an inherent chance for all rogue attacks to be sneak attacks against things that are normally immune and increase the chance of getting sneak attacks against stuff with some degree of fortification.
  
  
  
• Tie this to feats instead of enhancements - this could be implemented any of the three ways above.
  
  
• Grant this inherently with rogue levels, or even make it one of the special rogue feats (akin to improved evasion, slippery mind, etc).

I think linking this to feats is a bad idea, unless it was available through the special rogue feats, and rogues got at least one more extra rogue feat.

I think enhancements are a good mechanism for adding this, but I really don't like the idea of even more clickies. It needs to be inherent.

My favorite idea is just automatically giving it to rogues and increasing the chance with more rogue levels - very similarly to monk benefits such as run speed, slow fall, unarmed damage die, etc. Make it a 10% chance to get sneak attacks against SA immune mobs and a 10% reduction in fortification at level 3 and increase it 10% every three levels. That is just an example, I have no idea how realistic those #s are.

What do you all think?

[Saliarie]

I disagree for the simple fact that they would give this same permability/feat to the monsters and then my rogue would be in a world of hurt (especially rogue ogres). But I like the concept that we can bypass something as a class...my fix would be to introducce a NEW POISON one that can "eat away" at the protections and provide us rogues an "in"...how about WOTA1 poison type: "Liquid Chorozite" on hit drops AC and Saves by 2 and a 33% chance to bypass HVY fort all together (this last for a short time like the other poisons do).

Powerful but balanced by time and a clicky system.

[Timjc86]

I disagree for the simple fact that they would give this same permability/feat to the monsters and then my rogue would be in a world of hurt (especially rogue ogres).
Not necessarily. I almost went into a thorough fortification discussion but didn't. A_D posted a great suggestion on this a while back, I will try to find and link it. But under the currently system, I see no reason that implementing this would mandate giving monsters the ability to bypass fortification as well.

But I like the concept that we can bypass something as a class...my fix would be to introducce a NEW POISON one that can "eat away" at the protections and provide us rogues an "in"...how about WOTA1 poison type: "Liquid Chorozite" on hit drops AC and Saves by 2 and a 33% chance to bypass HVY fort all together (this last for a short time like the other poisons do).
The problem with this is that anything you would want to use such a poison on is immune to poison. That's also why WotA I is total and utter trash. Making it a poison results in a whopping zero benefit to rogues, it's just wasted dev time.

Powerful but balanced by time and a clicky system.

Comments in cyan.
It should definitely be balanced, but I think that's taken care of automatically in any of the implementations that I listed; the only thing to be determined is the % per tier and at which levels the tiers are available. A character would have to have a certain number of rogue levels to gain a certain % of fortification penetration. A barbarian or a ranger couldn't just splash two levels of rogue and then bypass any and all fortification.

I could deal with more clickies but it would be a pain.

[Saliarie]

Hmmmm okay after rereading your post again I would see this concept falling under the Rogue Bonus Feats section. And then I guess instead of the smiting line you could call it something that applied to all types, but keep the mechanics for it the same.

I still dont know...my ghost touches work pretty well and my transmuters pass on a lot of damage. The only thing Im void of is my sneak attack damage which I understand from pnp why that is where the undead are concened.

In another thread I would love to hear how the poisons are broken. I wasnt aware "immunity to poison" applied to manufactured poisons...I only thought that was natural poison.

Good ideas

[Timjc86]

Hmmmm okay after rereading your post again I would see this concept falling under the Rogue Bonus Feats section. And then I guess instead of the smiting line you could call it something that applied to all types, but keep the mechanics for it the same.

I still dont know...my ghost touches work pretty well and my transmuters pass on a lot of damage. The only thing Im void of is my sneak attack damage which I understand from pnp why that is where the undead are concened.

Even with a strength based rogue, I'm just not seeing the damage add up. Some of it is weapon selection as I haven't spent as much time and money finding good stuff for him. Maybe I am just spoiled after having played a ranger for so long, with Ram's Might and Favored Enemy both scaling more than they should (definitely for Ram's, arguable for FE). It may just be that I'm not in touch with what decent damage is for a rogue, but even so, it's ranger/rogue splashes that I'm usually competing with for spots in groups and raids. When my ranger hits Shroud portals for 30+ base damage (before holy, anarchic, PG, whatever else) and my rogue is seeing stuff like 8, it's kind of sad.

As for PnP, I never played. I understand the logic behind sneak attack immunities, as you can't really kidney-punch a skeleton - and even if you could, the skeleton's life isn't really tied to whatever vestiges of a kidney it might still have. But at the same time, I could see similar logic behind rogues still getting sneak attacks, just at a reduced frequency: skeletons, constructs, etc should still have weaknesses - parts or sections more vulnerable than others. Rogues, at least higher level ones, should be well versed in spotting such weaknesses and taking advantage of them. I always feel a little silly discussing logic in such a wildly fantastical setting (I mean kidney-punching skeletons... honestly...) but it's an idea.

In another thread I would love to hear how the poisons are broken. I wasnt aware "immunity to poison" applied to manufactured poisons...I only thought that was natural poison.

I may be off here, I'm not 100% sure. I experimented briefly with the WotAI poisons and didn't like them. I still pop one of them during boss fights for the +2 attack and the +20 to confirm crits, but I have never noticed the poison affecting a boss (red named). I don't think I have even tried against undead, constructs, or elementals as I just assumed they would be immune. If not, that would be nice to know, and your idea would be a good one. I still don't like the limited uses per shrine though.

Good ideas

Cyan again. What a nice color

[Hafeal]

I like the idea. My 14/2 rogue ranger would really love it.

[bobbryan2]

Even with a strength based rogue, I'm just not seeing the damage add up. Some of it is weapon selection as I haven't spent as much time and money finding good stuff for him. Maybe I am just spoiled after having played a ranger for so long, with Ram's Might and Favored Enemy both scaling more than they should (definitely for Ram's, arguable for FE). It may just be that I'm not in touch with what decent damage is for a rogue, but even so, it's ranger/rogue splashes that I'm usually competing with for spots in groups and raids. When my ranger hits Shroud portals for 30+ base damage (before holy, anarchic, PG, whatever else) and my rogue is seeing stuff like 8, it's kind of sad.

I hear you. My ranger against unfavored enemies clearly outperforms my rogue against undead and constructs.

I realize that both DPS classes are supposed to have their niche where they're positively incredible... but Rangers have far more boosts to their abilities regardless of opponent, where rogues get pretty hosed when they're fighting fortified enemies.

Just look at the 50% fort on the Pit Fiend... that's even supposed to be one of the enemies a rogue excells against, and his usefulness is cut in half.

Part of it comes from Rogues being a mundane class. Seems easier to just add a nice spell from some random book than dream up an enhancment line... but the fact remains that Rogues need some loving against non-fleshy things.

The wrack construct was a nice start... but I'm starting to think that piercing fortification needs to be a passive boost for high level rogues. Maybe not 100%, after all... a Ranger isn't getting a large bonus against his non-favored enemies, but he's still getting a big boost from Ram's might, +10% attack speed, etc. Cutting through 50% of fortifcation would be nice.

[Noctus]

There should be an enhancement-line called "Find the weak spot" and it gives you a 10/20/30/40 % reduction in the opponents fortification.

A rogue would still be much weaker against fortified enemys, but not border on total uselessness any more.