Two Weapon feats will work on Unarmed in mod8

[NullWolf]

Here is all the proof we should ever need for monks to be the more powerful than anyone can possibly imagine.

Yeah... but Bruce had Whirlwind Attack, Improved Crit: Bludgeoning, Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning and a couple other feats it'd be tough for a full monk to get

I think he'd be more like an unarmed specced fighter than a monk... (with a splash of monk for Flurry etc... )

Back on topic...
*sigh* My Unarmed specialist monk (Rikishi) may have to be rerolled to be able to get TWF feats... (good thing he's only level 5 right now...)

[Angelus_dead]

I do not think the answer to monk dps is adding more attacks. The answer should lie in the enhancement system. Increased crit range (a monk placing a fist in your sternum seems more like an improved crit range than a barb trying to place one side of a 6 foot blade in the same place).

No, that is very obviously wrong. If you went and gave monks 19-20/x3 fists that wouldn't fix their DPS. The reason they do poorly is low rate of attacks compared to TWF kama or other characters who are free to learn TWF with any proficient weapon.

[NullWolf]

A_D care to speculate on say an unarmed Tempest Monk? (Since I'll be rerolling Rikishi, I'm considering just splashing the monk and making a tactical fighter or unarmed tempest-type build... thoughts?)

[Angelus_dead]

A_D care to speculate on say an unarmed Tempest Monk? (Since I'll be rerolling Rikishi, I'm considering just splashing the monk and making a tactical fighter or unarmed tempest-type build... thoughts?)

That would be all speculation, because we don't know which animation will be used for unarmed TWF.

There are 4 big possibilities:
1. Unarmed TWF uses the existing unarmed animation, but sticks in extra attack rolls here and there. This would require the least amount of dev time.
1b. As above, but the animation is slower or has a few delays stuck in.
2. Unarmed TWF uses the existing TWF animation, but with the hands closed.
3. A whole new animation for unarmed TWF.

Depending on which way they do it, unarmed TWF could have more, less, or the same attacks per minute as weapon TWF. If you think they'll go the easiest way and take option 1, then it might be a good idea for a ran12/mnk1 build to fight with handwraps sometimes, because the unarmed animation completes faster than the weapon TWF animation.

But note that even if unarmed TWF has a higher attack rate than armed TWF, it probably won't be enough to make it a superior style unless the enemy is immune to critical hits. The crit rate from a rapier or khopesh will probably outweigh any faster hit rate.

[Timjc86]

I know I'm not A_D but I'll toss in my two cents:

Unarmed attacks have an awful crit range and a horrendous crit multiplier. The benefit is that they have a comparatively large damage roll, which is dependent on how many monk levels your character has: (I think these are correct, they are from a PnP Monk database; I could not quickly find a reference specific to DDO monks, but it should be close if not the same)
1-3 1d6
4-7 1d8
8-11 1d10
12-15 2d6
16-19 2d8
20 2d10

If you take tempest you will have to devote at least 6 levels to ranger, meaning at level 20, the highest your unarmed damage would be is 2d6.

Things are pretty murky considering we don't know what Tempest II will offer, or exactly how TWF unarmed will work (same # of attacks, slightly less, more, etc). But I imagine that you're going to be better off with one or the other.

Either plan for Tempest II (which we can't do yet) with at most one or two levels of monk, if any at all, for the wisdom to AC and saves, or stay pure monk and maximize your unarmed damage die and your attack speed bonus from Greater Air Stance.

Again, nobody knows for sure right now, but it's my guess that you will be better off focusing purely (or almost) on one class and playing to it's strengths. And of course I am speaking of better off in a purely numerical sense in terms of damage. If you want to make an unarmed tempest fighter I imagine you'll do very well. In that case I would still hold out for some more information about Tempest II until you can compare that with the stacking speed bonuses of the different tiers of Air Stance.

But if you wanted to get started you will need at least six levels of ranger and a base dex as close to 16 (or higher) as you can get it.

[EKKM]

It is impossible to Flurry while grappling. Flurry requires a full attack, and you can't actually make a full attack in a grapple. You can perform a number of actions equal to the number of attacks granted by your BAB, but that's not the same thing.

Also, since D&D monks do not have full BAB (and cannot afford to pump str like a Fighter), they do not usually win grapples against CR-appropriate monsters..

You are correct, it has been a while since i played PnP. Perhaps your PnP experience was different, but I used a high str monk in PnP (16 base I think) who was a grappling specialist and I rarely lost grapples. Actually dealing lethal damage at 1d6 or higher in a grapple, not 1d2 - 1d3 nonlethal damage, means you can afford to loose a few rolls.

Barbs and Fighters charge for two-handed Power Attack when that happens, which means they're still doing good damage.

And the monk can charge and stunning fist them or make a move action and then trip them. Monks can also take power attack and a quarterstaff is a two handed weapon. Also to get more than a 5 foot step away from the monk and still take another action, the opponent will provoke an aoo which can lead to a trip or stunning fist, followed by a full attack or grapple. I also realize we can saying "but if you do this then I do" this all day.

I do realize that a PnP monk is not meant to take on a fighter or bar and win straight out. The monk is supposed to be CC, front line support and cause trouble behind the lines usually as a caster killer (saves, movement, tumble). Anyway, my real point was that there are always options to a full attack flurry when the DM has avoided using one of their own to prevent yours.

[Cold_Stele]

1-3 1d6
4-7 1d8
8-11 1d10
12-15 2d6
16-19 2d8
20 2d10

If you take tempest you will have to devote at least 6 levels to ranger, meaning at level 20, the highest your unarmed damage would be is 2d6.

I'd love to see this kind of dilemma built into every class - Monk 20 and Ranger 6/Monk 14 both have very appealing choices and it's a difficult decision whether to go mult-class or pure.

[Drfirewater79]

The thing you are all forgetting is that this isnt something that is new its something that should have been there at monk launch.

just like handwraps that have banes and transmutting on them

forcing a monk to use kamas is wrong

and really its hard to make a useful str monk cause you need dex and wisdom for ac and cause we have low hitpoints dex finese builds are the biggest and most common monk builds out there.

perhaps yall dont play alot of dnd pnp but if you did you would know monks are suppost to do as much if not more dps then fighters the only characters that have even the potential to do more damage are Barbarians when in raged and dps rouge builds cause of sneak attack damage (i totally suggest halfling guile to all monks an extra 4 points of damage when you are not the main tank goes a long way in vod)

its the reason the class is alignment required lawful.

DnD works on a simple premis if something is overpowered then limit its creation choices fighters have lots of feats to make up for the fact that they are weaker then barbarians, barbarians have higher hit dice to make up for the fact that they suffer from low ac cause they cant wear good armor and generally cant make use of high dex. Rangers get the ability to cast spells and get lots of bonus abilities to make up for low hit points (although i do know there are some straight dex con rangers out there but our stats wouldnt be this high in dnd) like there archer feats Casters and clerics have there low hitpoints swapped out for over powering spell damage and healing abilities. Palidans cause they are able to cast heal dps (using smites especially) and have decient ac and hit points and killer saves if built right is the reason they have to be lawful good. This is the same with monks low hitpoints compared to a fighter no ability to wear armor like a fighter can in return they get faster attack (flurry of blows) more attacks (per bab) and there fists do more damage per sect of levels to incourage use of weaker monk weapons or handwraps ... kamas are weak ... nincucks are weak (and should be added to the game) shurikens in dnd are way weaker then they are in ddo and so monks have to be lawful

dps for a monk right now with handwraps sucks against anything that has a dr

what this will do is increase the dps of the monk and allow them to be involved in the fighting

so many raid parties allow only one monk if even when doing high level raids

that is bs

once we have transmuting and greater bane handwraps and the twf feats we should be as if not more useful then fighters

and this is comming from someone who has a lot of fighters .... fighters do great dps and have good hitpoints no reason why a monk shouldnt beable to do great dps with how crud our hp is (my monk in order to have a high ac has only 290 hitpoints at lvl 16 when in wind stance which is near half of my lvl 16 straight fighter who is dwarven and has 20 starting con)

its about time someone tossed the monks a bone ..... mod 8 and 9 will finially equal out monk class to the other classes and stop all the monk hating in this game.

[Drfirewater79]

I'd love to see this kind of dilemma built into every class - Monk 20 and Ranger 6/Monk 14 both have very appealing choices and it's a difficult decision whether to go mult-class or pure.

one thing he forgot to mention is that a monk straight at lvl 20 also becomes an outsider and gets all the benifits that go with that including spell resistance

[Tanka]

one thing he forgot to mention is that a monk straight at lvl 20 also becomes an outsider and gets all the benifits that go with that including spell resistance

Monks already get SR at level 13.

[Timjc86]

one thing he forgot to mention is that a monk straight at lvl 20 also becomes an outsider and gets all the benifits that go with that including spell resistance

In DnD this is true, and worth mentioning. But similar to Tempest II, if a feature hasn't been implemented yet I would not get too excited about it, or plan a character build largely around it.

As of now, we honestly have no idea how Turbine will implement things like Empty Body and Perfect Self, if at all - it might be just as good as in PnP, better, or worse (see Flurry of Blows).

Regardless, the trend so far has been that many of of the monk's unique strengths tend to only get better the more monk levels you take, and I expect this trend to continue.

[Solmage]

I have the feeling this change will be a mistake. Any reason to not be a handwraps TWF monk now?

As happy as I am for monks, I also fear this will be a mistake.

1) ALL monks, unless you LIKE being gimped, will HAVE to have two weapon fighting feats.

2) One of the main advantages of two weapon combat is the ability to have a different weapon in each hand, complementing each other. So for example, my monk, if I hadn't deleted him, would have had a +4 AC mineral II kama in his left hand, and a lightning II kama on his right hand.

2a) If monks only use 1 handwrap for their TWF, it's a slap in the face of the 2 greensteel lightning kama monk. The new monk will need half the larges to have significantly better dps.

2b) If you give them two handwraps, then handwraps become better in every possible way except wounding and vorpaling. The only advantage two GS kamas have would be gone.

(2b May be the the lesser of the two evils mind you)

Personally, I think instead of doing this they should have simply improved the way stunning fist and quivering palm work, to allow monks to gain DPS from those when using handwraps, and leave TWF for kamas.

Two improvements that come to mind: lowering the ki cost of stunning fist and palm a little bit, and making quivering palm return ki if it succeeds in killing the enemy, so that it's not such a huge drain to use reasonably often in combat.

If the monk class as whole needed DPS (kama or not), (and yes, they do) then they should have changed the way the elemental finishing moves work: Instead of amusing but barely useful debuffers and buffers, they should allow you to "power-up" - say 6-10 seconds of constant fire damage (as if you were pressing fists of fire on each attack) after you activate the fire "finisher" as opposed to some cool-looking, but ultimately useless burning hands.

A cool down between finishers, as well as blocking the other elemental damage buttons could balance it out if it becomes too powerful. Heck, it could be made to cost 1 ki per strike while powered up.

As far as buffs and debuffs that would have been useful, you don't really need to go very far: fire shield for fire, cold shield for water, DR boost for earth (a la defiance, although probably a bit less.. say DR 10), static electricity sphere for lightning (less damage than fire/cold and doesn't absorb 50% lightning like those do, but it could have the chance to stun enemies that hit you)

Anyway, in conclusion, I think that while monks as a whole improve in effectiveness with this announcement dps-wise, the class actually suffers. I *liked* seeing different combat styles on monks.

[Desteria]

well as long as they add greensteal hadwrapes and make it so you can use 2 for TWF buy FAR the easest implemetaion with otu overhallign alll of DDO twf code, I will be VERY happy to beable to use the SSWEET new animations with pout gimping my DPS....
IF it only uses one weapon for TWF with fists it would cost me 2ac and I would stick with my kama's in mainy situations, as the gain wont be that big since i'm only 10 monk.
For 90% of trash it wount make a diference as i would normaly use vorp or wounding any way.

[Eladrin]

Possessing two weapon fighting feats will grant additional attack hooks to unarmed monks, and only add those attack hooks. Feats and abilities that are tied to two weapon fighting (such as two weapon defense or Tempest) will not work with handwraps.

Handwraps will still occupy both weapon slots (though the magical effects on them will affect all of your unarmed attacks) and you will continue using the monk unarmed attack animations. Fighting with a pair of kamas gives you additional versatility in selecting your gear layout and access to the secondary two weapon fighting feat and ability chains; fighting with a quarterstaff will give you strength and a half to damage and glancing blows.

At this time we are not adding green steel weave handwraps.

[LordDamax]

At this time we are not adding green steel weave handwraps.

Fact you said green steel WEAVE handwraps means you've worked it out enough that you know what they are called and how to justifiy green STEEL handWRAPS

So methinks they are coming eventually.

However, why every other weapon in GS exists but monks main weapons are excluded... that I dont get.

Oh well.

[Gol]

Possessing two weapon fighting feats will grant additional attack hooks to unarmed monks, and only add those attack hooks. Feats and abilities that are tied to two weapon fighting (such as two weapon defense or Tempest) will not work with handwraps.
...
At this time we are not adding green steel weave handwraps.

Back to basement-dwelling ranked DPS for Monks. So much for that reroll idea...

[Vandos]

For crying out loud. No greenweave wraps.

We get the the same # of attacks as a twf kama user (which with a "flurry" of blows should have been in from start) but we still only use 1 weapon and that weapon cannot compare to any of the greensteel kamas?

Time for you devs to take your heads out and think for a change. I mean actually sit down and work out all the pros and cons of any given dev decision and if you have been doing that and still missed all the glaring inadequicies of your decisions then it is time for different people.

No wonder this game is dying, every update there is something to upset people even more.

Give us the wraps, fix potions and everything else that people have been complaining is broke.

[riexau]

Back to basement-dwelling ranked DPS for Monks. So much for that reroll idea...

Because everyone knows that GS weapons > transmuting of GEOB for dps

This is a good change. Sticks for portals and elementals, fists for red names with bypassable DR, kamas for trash and tanking. And shirukens to blow up crystals lol

Heaven forbid we actually have to use all the weapon types at our disposal!

For the record, twf handwraps is a step in the right direction, but it's not a complete fix. Adding + monk level to strike dmg and + (3 x level) to finishers duration and dmg would make them perfect.

[Fennario]

At this time we are not adding green steel weave handwraps.

No plans in adding them ever? Or just not for this update? Can you explain your reasoning? Thanks.

[Aerendil]

Possessing two weapon fighting feats will grant additional attack hooks to unarmed monks, and only add those attack hooks. Feats and abilities that are tied to two weapon fighting (such as two weapon defense or Tempest) will not work with handwraps.

Handwraps will still occupy both weapon slots (though the magical effects on them will affect all of your unarmed attacks) and you will continue using the monk unarmed attack animations. Fighting with a pair of kamas gives you additional versatility in selecting your gear layout and access to the secondary two weapon fighting feat and ability chains; fighting with a quarterstaff will give you strength and a half to damage and glancing blows.

At this time we are not adding green steel weave handwraps.

Not sure if the "hooks" was mentioned in a different post or not - if so, could someone please give me a link?
If not, could you please clarify this Eladrin? It sounds as though it will be similar to THF where you are granted glancing blows - is this correct?


Overall, though, it seems to be a reasonable tradeoff, at least from a dev standpoint.
Unarmed = better base damage, attack "hooks"; average dps.
Kamas = versatility in enchanted weapons; good dps (especially if /6 Ranger).
QS = best PA + glancing blows, plus reach, but lowest overall dps.

Now whether than translates correctly ingame, we'll see I guess.