Scales scales and more scales

[Xaxx]

for people that say the drop rates are even please consider this, if 50% of people said they were even and 50% said they were low
then thats one thing probably saying their pretty even and some people are just luckier then others but when the skew is more to the % of 75 vs 25, i think that speaks volumes about scales being out of skew to everything else. Its pretty funny though, as i have NEVER seen a dev post in any of these posts about scales saying * dont worry everythings even, its just luck of the draw* never have i seen that and considering how many people have had complaint threads like this over the past 7 months, you would figure they would have posted that ATLEAST ONCE if it was true. So with the way the turbine dev team has been over the past year where if they say they're workin on something they're probably lying and when they dont say anything they just either dont wanna hear us complain because what they have to say is screwed up or they just ignoring us, id have to go with not equal drop rate.

[GrayOldDruid]

I have run the Shroud almost once a day since Mod 7 and have not seen a single scale of ANY size drop. I can't even get my rouge the 3 small scales he needs for the first tier.

Scales are a problem, and it is not because they are used more.

Maybe there is a drop-limit on scales? Maybe the people posting that they don't have a problem getting scales are taking up all the scales available to drop and leaving none for anyone else?

If you can say scales are not a problem, then you're one of a select few lucky bastitches. I have a horde of large ingredients.... except Large Scales. I haven't had problems with the other scales as I have ( on three characters ) Four Tier II items and one Tier III item. I can make tier II items whenever I feel like it (if I grind for ingredients to make the greensteel blank). The Tier III item is a single shard. My next Tier III will be a single shard. I can't imagine grinding for a dual shard. Supreme Shards are not even a problem. ( I have enough tier II shards to choke a horse. My answer to "Anyone need a medium shard" is always "Please No." )

I've had runs where I pull ZERO large ingredients. Many where I pull one large out of three chests. A very rare run where I pull two and I have never pulled three larges any time.

Bottom line - Large Scale drop-rates are way too low. (or way too limited in some way)

EDIT : Then again, it may be that I don't have a problem with any other size scales just because I have TONS of freakin' small and medium ingredients.

[Thrudh]

I've had runs where I pull ZERO large ingredients.

This is impossible. You ALWAYS get a large ingrediant out of the left chest in part 5...

Many where I pull one large out of three chests. A very rare run where I pull two and I have never pulled three larges any time.

Large ingrediants only drop in two places... The left chest in Part 5 and there's a 25% chance (or so) to pull a large ingrediant from the right chest in Part 4.

That said, I would like the devs to up the large scale drop rate.. I do not believe it is good game design to allow people to run a quest over and over and get frustrated... It's a fine balance between keeping us playing, and keeping us from getting so frustrated that we quit...

I do believe that the large scale drop rate is probably equal to the other ingrediants... but because of the skewed recipes, everyone use large scales faster...

My first Tier III (dual-shard) item, I actually got all my scales first... I was waiting for a large arrowhead I believe to finish up that one... Each ingrediant seemed to drop in equal numbers for me...

My second Tier III (dual-shard) item, I have everything I need except for one large scale... But here's the thing.... After I get that large scale, I will need 5 more large scales and 1 large stone to craft my THIRD Tier III (dual-shard) item... I was able to get pretty much ALL the other ingrediants for two Tier III (dual-shard) upgrades before I got enough scales for the ONE Tier III (dual-shared) upgrade.

[Eladrin]

I do believe that the large scale drop rate is probably equal to the other ingrediants...

This is correct. The Large Scale drop rate is identical to all other Large ingredients, other than Large Splintered Horns (which have a significantly lower drop rate, but do still occasionally appear).

[esoitl]

for you it took 11 runs, for me it took 3 to get a scale

get used to it, they aren't rarer by any means but you have to look at the random roll factor. just because you roll a d6 6 times you are not guaranteed to roll a 6 or a 1 for that matter

speaking of Tor i have run it plenty of times, last 2 runs have netted me 5 scales all pulled and not assigned(i was assigned another 2 for a total of 7 scales in 2 runs). now, is that typical?? heck no and i realize that.... i curse all of my runs that i was blanked but realized that runs like this happen

i'm sitting at 5 completions now in the shroud with more than 5 larges(been lucky on the pt 4 chest a few runs) so it basically all comes down to die rolls.... sometimes you're lucky, sometimes you're not


watch what others pull, i don't think there has been a run i haven't seen a scale pulled and eve have a lot of extra med/sm scales sitting in the bank

[Angelus_dead]

This is correct. The Large Scale drop rate is identical to all other Large ingredients, other than Large Splintered Horns (which have a significantly lower drop rate, but do still occasionally appear).

I doubt it was intentional that Devil Scales would be the most valuable ingredient.

Here's a suggestion for this kind of thing:
Set the drop rate for ingredients to be proportional to the usage-rate of ingredients. I suspect you already have those numbers, so you could punch it in manually- or you could do something fancy like have each game server record usage, and automatically change drops to match.

Maybe it's too late to bother changing this for The Shroud, but if there's a future quest with a similar mechanic, it could be kept in mind. As-is, Shroud ingredients have a problem where scales and stones are the limiting factor. As time goes by, they'll stay valuable but the others will shrink towards triviality (eventually stones will reduce in price as well).

[Lithic]

I doubt it was intentional that Devil Scales would be the most valuable ingredient.

Here's a suggestion for this kind of thing:
Set the drop rate for ingredients to be proportional to the usage-rate of ingredients. I suspect you already have those numbers, so you could punch it in manually- or you could do something fancy like have each game server record usage, and automatically change drops to match.

Maybe it's too late to bother changing this for The Shroud, but if there's a future quest with a similar mechanic, it could be kept in mind. As-is, Shroud ingredients have a problem where scales and stones are the limiting factor. As time goes by, they'll stay valuable but the others will shrink towards triviality (eventually stones will reduce in price as well).

While you're at it, change 'collectable' drops so they slowly increase over time. Maybe doubling every month or so. Drop rates like that of the litany pages might be alright when its the "IT" quest, but so many months later they are a pain to collect, few if any bother to do the quest for more than favor or flagging, and the rewards are rapidly loosing thier luster. The shield and tome pages are the worst right now, but any similar grind in the future should be adjustable based on it's popularity, which inevitably drops over time. New players (Or even old players rolling new characters) that might want to complete these side quests are going to be terribly frustrated to find out it takes 100 runs of the litany preraid to get a tome set (if you are lucky... Im at over 20runs without a page at all), similar runs to get the shield, and groups for such quests take a long time to form.

[Venar]

Thanks for the reply Eladrin.
Now, you said they should be equal.
Can anyone double check if there isn't a blunder in coding? Because once i found myself in need of scales, i found myself pulling 31 other ingredients befire i got 1. Some of my mates have had the same insane bad luck, while others say they are not rare.
Strangely, most unlucky ones are sorcerer, rogues, or fighters, while clerics and bard did pull scales more.

Could there be some coding error that makes character class affect drop rate?

[oberon131313]

2 runs, 2 scales, it's all luck of the draw...

[Gratch]

Adding a "relic exchange" like guy who takes 2 [or 3] of one type of large for 1 of anything would fix what will soon be known as the BONE OBSOLESENSE SYNDROME.

I'm still waiting for large horns to become something "everyone will want"... I need at max 2 on 1 toon and mostly 0 on all the rest. I have 30 at last count... *shrug*

Though I guess players new to the shroud may want 0, 1 or 2 moreso.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

This is correct. The Large Scale drop rate is identical to all other Large ingredients, other than Large Splintered Horns (which have a significantly lower drop rate, but do still occasionally appear).

Then, unless it's intended (which would be a crappy thing to do), this is a flaw on the game designers' part.

If the drop rate is the same but the usage rate is different, the supply-and-demand effect is the same as if Scales were more rare and Bones were more common.

Seriously-- nobody looked at the recipe chart and noticed this?

[Gennerik]

This is correct. The Large Scale drop rate is identical to all other Large ingredients, other than Large Splintered Horns (which have a significantly lower drop rate, but do still occasionally appear).

Does that equal drop rate include the power cells, either depleted or fully charged? I'm asking because when it comes the chest at the end of part 4, the only thing I've ever gotten from that chest is a charged power cell. I've heard that large ingredients are supposed to drop in that chest as well, but I've never gotten a large ingredient except at the end of the quest and only power cells at the end of part 4.

I would hope that the power cells have significantly lower drop rates as well, especially since you can buy them, and they are almost as useless as the horns as far as you may use a few of them, but then any extras just sit around.

[Venar]

2 runs, 2 scales, it's all luck of the draw...

wow, a 2 ingredient sample.
2/2 means nothing, just like 0/2.
Get 24 ingredient (the needed amount for a tier 3) and see how many scales you have on 24.

[Milolyen]

I doubt it was intentional that Devil Scales would be the most valuable ingredient.

Here's a suggestion for this kind of thing:
Set the drop rate for ingredients to be proportional to the usage-rate of ingredients. I suspect you already have those numbers, so you could punch it in manually- or you could do something fancy like have each game server record usage, and automatically change drops to match.

Maybe it's too late to bother changing this for The Shroud, but if there's a future quest with a similar mechanic, it could be kept in mind. As-is, Shroud ingredients have a problem where scales and stones are the limiting factor. As time goes by, they'll stay valuable but the others will shrink towards triviality (eventually stones will reduce in price as well).

I was bored at work one day awhile back and was curious about the recipies so I did some playing around. Question was what if I wanted to make each upgrade? I found out that if you where to gather enough ingredients to make each type of upgrade (AED,AEE,AEO ... PMD,PME and PMO) you would need 72 arrows and chains, 90 scales, 78 stones, 66 shrapnel and 54 bones. If you look at the numbers a little closer you will see that stones are used in 6 more recipies than chains and arrows while shrapnel is used in 6 less. Also that scales are used in 18 more recipies than chain and arrows while bones are used in 18 less. You don't get that kind of symmetry unless you plan it.

Milolyen

[Milolyen]

wow, a 2 ingredient sample.
2/2 means nothing, just like 0/2.
Get 24 ingredient (the needed amount for a tier 3) and see how many scales you have on 24.

When I picked up my 24th large ingredient I had more scales than anything else. This is not including large horns. I don't remember exact numbers but do remember needing to borrow chains and arrows from guildies to make my mineral 2 bow.

Milolyen

[Pyromaniac]

I tend to go on runs....I'll pull 5 scales in a row, then 6 stones, then its bone after bone after bone....

But I can see the drop rate is relatively equal, the recipies used were the problem. Got to say either intentionally designed to drive more shroud grinding (which is fine) or not planned well (not so good).

[Thrudh]

wow, a 2 ingredient sample.
2/2 means nothing, just like 0/2.
Get 24 ingredient (the needed amount for a tier 3) and see how many scales you have on 24.

When I built my first Tier III item (and it was double-shard), I had close to equal numbers of all ingrediants.... But then I made my item, and had 2 chains over, 3 bones left over, 1 arrowhead left over, etc. But 0 scales because I used them all.

The GM has spoken... It's equal chance for scales (which my own original 24 ingrediant sample indicated).

We just use up all our scales on every single upgrade, and always have some of the others left over...

As you make more and more items, you end up with a dozen of all other ingrediants and 0 scales... and it happens fairly quickly...

[Riggs]

This is correct. The Large Scale drop rate is identical to all other Large ingredients, other than Large Splintered Horns (which have a significantly lower drop rate, but do still occasionally appear).

Well I am also one of the 'unlucky ones' then. While I have gotten a few more in recent times, I was basically stuck for a month because I would loot everything else but scales.

Having 10 or more of everything else and 0 scales after only going 8 scales worth of tier 3 upgrades really starts to suck after a while.

Having 4-5 characters runnign the shroud as much as I can, and after weeks I cant even get ONE guy a tier 3 item is a real drag.

I have 17 large horns - how exactly am I going to make 17 more green steel items?

Yes a lot of players dont mind it and will run raids non-stop. The proportion is higher because I have seen a lot of people quit over the grind. 10 runs to get something is tolerable. 20, 30,50 runs to get a single item....many people see that and say "I'll go find something else fun to do". I know far more people that either give up on raids, or dont even bother because it takes so long to get anything or anywhere. Most people I know like making up many characters. If you are stuck playing ONE character in raids for months because it takes months to get any items...then either you face the choice of no one having named/raid items, or not being able to play all your characters - both are bad choices.

I posted about a month or two after the Shroud came out about what the low drop rates, and long, long grinds is doing to some players...namely a good buddy who I played with decided that he had enough of the grind - and each mod is making the grind for items that are better than random vendor trash longer and longer.

His exact quote was "Well I will look at the recipes maybe in a few months when I can actually make something"...two weeks later he let his account end because everyone was running the shroud pretty much non-stop, and that seemed pretty boring considering you have to run it 20+ times to get a single good item on anyone. And for many people, running the same thing dozens of times gets really boring - but when the majority of 'good' players are running it, if you want to run other stuff you end up pugging with what often ends up being really iffy groups - and bad pugs is a good reason to stop playing for a while too.

Somewhere along the way it seems to have been decided that the longer the grind, the happier players will be and keep playing. That assumption is very, very wrong.

[Shagn]

This is correct. The Large Scale drop rate is identical to all other Large ingredients, other than Large Splintered Horns (which have a significantly lower drop rate, but do still occasionally appear).

I agree the drop rate is about even. I would also agree there may be a 1/1000 chance that 30 runs could result in no scales (like 12 raid loot drops in a single raid).

The issue is the recipes. They are lopsided as many have already suggested and require more devils on average than any other. This is clearly evident as shown on this spreadsheet. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...cCEpCaYg&gid=2
Funk is also considered rare because it is the most common ingredient for the most common weapons (the khopesh and the maul both require 3 [maul replaced by greataxe now though]).

Using horns instead cells was a mistake IMO. I would have liked to see them used in a new recipe instead of just the missing weapon types. There were plenty of recipes left to make the missing weapons than using horns (as seen in the link above).

A 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 ingredient (including vales) exchange would be nice, but really would only be a band aid fix for a poor recipe balancing and only prolong the grinding by paying customers. Changing the drop rate for particular ingredients to the numbers in the spreadsheet would alleviate the issue also, and I would be in favor for.

[ArkoHighStar]

I was bored at work one day awhile back and was curious about the recipies so I did some playing around. Question was what if I wanted to make each upgrade? I found out that if you where to gather enough ingredients to make each type of upgrade (AED,AEE,AEO ... PMD,PME and PMO) you would need 72 arrows and chains, 90 scales, 78 stones, 66 shrapnel and 54 bones. If you look at the numbers a little closer you will see that stones are used in 6 more recipies than chains and arrows while shrapnel is used in 6 less. Also that scales are used in 18 more recipies than chain and arrows while bones are used in 18 less. You don't get that kind of symmetry unless you plan it.

Milolyen

I think this is the key right there as drop rates mean less and less if usage rates do not run along the same pattern. The Gianthold could have had such a problem is it weren't for the trade in option, as people ran POP the most for loot,and therefore dragon relics were the easiest to come by, many people were ableto fill in missing giant and elf relics with the often overabundant supply of dragon relics, making access to the Tor a lot easier after the Gianthold quieted down. Such a system for the shroud and vale ingredients would extend the life of the mod after mod 8 and 9 come out.