Coup De Grace?

[Depravity]

This came up in another thread, though it was worth its own.

PnP allows, from first level on, anyone to make a death attack against a helpless opponent.
Don't have my books inf ront of me, but if I remember right, helpless enemy plus a full-round single attack = an auto crit. The helpless target must then make a fortitude save against the amount of damage done or die instantly. Doesn't work on anything immune to crits or without a discernable anatomy.

Helpless is pretty much only: stat at 0, unconscious, or held.

I feel that implementing this would be a nice boost, for the melee types especially, allowing the satisfaction of some instakills in reward for good tactical play.

That full-round action would translate into a 6-second interruptible action, something similar to a basic bluff. Hard to pull off in the heat of battle, but good for mop-up (its intended purpose in PnP, really - save a few rounds by simply finishing off already defeated enemies), and nice with a good CC caster.

Shouldn't work with prone, mesmerized/fascinated or stun/daze (stun is a bit overpowered in translation to DDO - it's not autocrit in PnP), as those are pretty easy to get.

Maybe a moderate cooldown to help avoid abuse.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[GORAK]

When you get held or brought to 0 stat and a single monster or two kills your 100+ hit point tank in 1 round, how would you feel?
What works for us would go the same with the monsters and we already know the crazy high DC's and endless mana of mob casters. It would make even an elite harbor quest become messy really quick with the kobold and trog shamans.

[Borror0]

About Coup de Grace:

Coup de Grace

As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

About helpless:

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

And about paralysed:

Paralyzed

A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.

Now, will all those quotes up there, I can comment.

If a foes is helpless, he'll die in a split second anyway. So, 6s is way too long, the mob will be dead by then. Really, not worth implementing for how often it'd be used as rendering your foe helpess isn't that easy. Mobs never become unconscious, if they're held they'll die from criticals and draining either Str or Dex to zero doesn't happen that often. I doin't see how it'd help melee classes.

Development ressurces would be better spent, imo.

Oh, and I found something funny on the SRD.

[Kistilan]

About Coup de Grace:



About helpless:



And about paralysed:



Now, will all those quotes up there, I can comment.

If a foes is helpless, he'll die in a split second anyway. So, 6s is way too long, the mob will be dead by then. Really, not worth implementing for how often it'd be used as rendering your foe helpess isn't that easy. Mobs never become unconscious, if they're held they'll die from criticals and draining either Str or Dex to zero doesn't happen that often. I doin't see how it'd help melee classes.

Development ressurces would be better spent, imo.

Oh, and I found something funny on the SRD.

Good info there Borror0, but I'll have to disagree about resources used on this item's development vs its usefulness for play. Not everyone is wielding the perfect weapon or has 400 hps or a +20 damage bonus like a raging barbarian. The one assumption is that a mob is going to die in a matter of seconds on the ground. Maybe on normal with a decent weapon in the proper wielder's hands, but that's a lot of perfect conditions to an already perfect situation for the player vs the monster.

The Perfect Situation and Ye Old Average Party

I say take ye old average level 16 fighter that didn't do anything special to their character, averaged ability scores across the board to use things like combat expertise, dodge, cleave, improved trips and sunders. They're not specialized in anything in particular and wield a shield like a pro and a longsword or mace. Welcome to the world of the average fighter that does average fighter damage. The fighter's best weapons are a few bursting weapons of elemental damage. They don't have a paralyzer or banisher or any greater banes and possibly no normal banes 'cept maybe a dwarf bane since the wizards seemed to have a dwarf bane enchantment day one year and made an abundancy of these items in hoping to rid the world of dwarves -- this of course backfired and only reduced the number of normal dwarven fighters, leaving the remaining dwarven berserking barbarians to extract revenge upon their fallen brethern and giving the appearance that Eberron only has dwarven barbarians and clerics. Heaven's goodness, what a witchng hour that got us into! Sorcerers and Wizards, remember that for next time you get to craft enchantments!

Now then, you've got the average fighter going into a normal campaign. Everyone plays smart and conserves mana since he's with the average wizard, average cleric and average rogue. They have wands between them and some heal scrolls, but they don't have a plethora of mana potions and they don't have a raging barbarian dealing out 200 damage a hit. The wizard also didn't specialize in any particular element, but mixed and matched, so he does a fair amount of damage in every aspect. He did take increases to his spell penetration and enchantment/necromancy spells however to make it harder for monsters to resist his spells. The cleric is focused a little more towards healing since they thought that's how they'd play their character and the rogue is all about disabling traps and rolling around like a monkey with a staff in his hand, so he's chosen the way of the acrobat as a lifestyle, not just a professioni.

So here's your group of 4. Consider all other characters relatively of the same mindset if you want to say you add a 5th fighter or a 6th bard or monk.

Now, when the higher-than-normal life monster manages to get into a prone and helpless position such as a well-timed stun, held, flesh to stone, etc and has a critical area of strike, the fighter wishes he could Coup de Grace. His swing on a critical only averages about 80 damage tops with the gear he's using and it's really making him mad that he works on a monster for about 10 swings just to see it die. Luckily, the dungeon master came along and said, "You have the option to coup de grace this foe due to its vitals and state of vulnerability!" Now the fighter is slaying helpless creatures in 1-4 swings. I'm not doing the math, but I'm going to say it's probably on average a 1-4 considering the monster is at a +4 to hit while helpless with a 0 dex.

Now take the same group and put them in a HARD setting. Wow! The fighter hits a little less in combat and the creatures dig into the group a little more. They also appear to have more life. Time to really break out stuns and paralyze/held spells! Even the rogue is trying his best to stay out of the combat and whips a few "hold monster" wands which occasionally work and allow ye old average fighter(s) a chance to crit and a chance to coup de grace, smartly saving the party hps, sps and a party wipe when a few trolls came out at once, all raging and dealing a lot of damage to the fighters 250 hps pool where they nibbled it down 10% every hit on his tanking self.

Now put the same party on ELITE. Man, the fighter is calling for 1 on 1 confrontations with focus fire and if ANYONE can stun/paralyze the mobs with anatomy, do it! He's tripping and sundering now just so he can stay in the fight against the hard stuff in this level. When he trips he saves his hps, makes it easier to hit, and gives the casters time to lay down stuns or holds. He also finds that if he uses stunning blow that he gets an opportunity once in awhile to take a coup de grace attack on his opponent and he's usiing this to the max. Finally, the rogue realized his wands and scrolls weren't cutting it anymore, so he's gone into haste staff mode and attacks monsters that the fighter has on him from behind with a speedy quarterstaff sneak attack, aiding in the kills of mobs that refuse a held/stun move and require damage to go down.

This is my summary of a coup de grace tactical situation. No Sky Vault Shields were sighted in Ye Average Party's questings.

[Borror0]

Good info there Borror0, but I'll have to disagree about resources used on this item's development vs its usefulness for play. Not everyone is wielding the perfect weapon or has 400 hps or a +20 damage bonus like a raging barbarian. The one assumption is that a mob is going to die in a matter of seconds on the ground. Maybe on normal with a decent weapon in the proper wielder's hands, but that's a lot of perfect conditions to an already perfect situation for the player vs the monster.

The Perfect Situation and Ye Old Average Party

[Text]

Well, I disagree with your disagreeance.

First, your good old average party is usually consisted of 6 members. That's the norm for PuGs. You could argue that DDO is supposed to be balanced for a party of four, but that's only only for normal. They've clearly said that Hard and Elite didn't follow this rule.

Secondly, Coup de grace only works when your opponent is helpless. As a result, either your drain their Dex or Str, or you hold them. Once held, the fighter is going to deal over 70 damage per swing, if the rogue joins the fighter in hitting the held mob... don't tell me it's going to take 6 second to finish the mob off. In any party, an helpless mob is not going to stay alive 6 seconds.

[BlueLightBandit]

In any party, an helpless mob is not going to stay alive 6 seconds.

I agree, I think we get the "Auto coup de grace" with auto-crits on held and stoned monsters. Which is basically the same thing in this monte-hall-onized version of D&D.

Oh yeah, and this is DDO, not D&D.

[Kistilan]

I agree, I think we get the "Auto coup de grace" with auto-crits on held and stoned monsters. Which is basically the same thing in this monte-hall-onized version of D&D.

Oh yeah, and this is DDO, not D&D.

That doesn't add any relevancy to anything. Thanks for clarifying. It's not like I have a character sheet wrote up tracking every healing potion. I'm well aware of the difference.

Wasn't auto-crit an inherent thing in D&D providing you made your regular attack roll?

Borror0, I was only using 4 characters to simplify role expectations. I do agree the party should be filled up in a hard and elite if possible.

There however are a lot of spells and abilities that would create "helpless" situations. Such as Stunning Blow, as I noted. Stun Spell. Shout's Stun. Hypnotism. Command. Hold Monster/Hold Person. Paralyze. Etc. I think if a group based their tactics around this and 2 or 3 warrior-types with coup de grace, the coup de grace would be a chosen tactic.

Now, nothing beats a good flesh to stone also, I agree, but I've met dex-based rangers that gripe about FTS because their wounders and other light-weapon finesse attacks tend to get mitigated by the stone skin cast on the held monster. This is another point where a coup de grace would be beneficial to these fighter types.

I agree that some groups can auto-crit and yield said damage but there will be times when some characters don't have the right build to do the damage. Heck, if my rogue-fighter didn't have backstab damage coming in, he would be doing about 30 pts on criticals with his 1d8+4 + 1d6 icy sword with his whopping 22 Strength average. I would probably be up 2-3 points if he wasn't a fighter-rogue and was just a pure fighter, and also +2 for more levels of fighter, so he'd probably be around a +8-+9 strength bonus.

4 + 4 + 9 + 3 = 20 x 2. My crit would be 40 damage with no backstab on average. Without a haste, this guy is swinging much slower than my rogue's speed attack too. A 400 hp foe held I'd rather swing 1 time and dispatch than 10 times if he was held and I hit on every attack and auto-cirtt'd for my average. That's 9 swings I can use to take on something else that may be after the caster, the healer, the rogue, etc.

[Borror0]

There however are a lot of spells and abilities that would create "helpless" situations. Such as Stunning Blow, as I noted. Stun Spell. Shout's Stun. Hypnotism. Command. Hold Monster/Hold Person. Paralyze. Etc. I think if a group based their tactics around this and 2 or 3 warrior-types with coup de grace, the coup de grace would be a chosen tactic.

Stunning Blow allows critical hits.
Stun/Shout allows critical hits.
Hypnotism are fascinated, so not helpless.
Hold Monster/Hold Person allows critical hits.
Command is prone, not helpless.
Paralyse allows to critical hits. (Not to mistake paralysers' effect for paralyze. It is actually Daze)

Nah, the tactic in shoudl a group would be to switch to Heavy Picks or x3 weapon.

Now, nothing beats a good flesh to stone also, I agree, but I've met dex-based rangers that gripe about FTS because their wounders and other light-weapon finesse attacks tend to get mitigated by the stone skin cast on the held monster. This is another point where a coup de grace would be beneficial to these fighter types.

Really, it's a minority. How many groups with more than one finess character do you meet? Rogues don't count as they get sneak attacks on helpless mobs.

I agree that some groups can auto-crit and yield said damage but there will be times when some characters don't have the right build to do the damage. Heck, if my rogue-fighter didn't have backstab damage coming in, he would be doing about 30 pts on criticals with his 1d8+4 + 1d6 icy sword with his whopping 22 Strength average. I would probably be up 2-3 points if he wasn't a fighter-rogue and was just a pure fighter, and also +2 for more levels of fighter, so he'd probably be around a +8-+9 strength bonus.

Well, your fighter-rogue has sneak attack.

Otherwise, using a battle axe, you can easily go for (1d8 + 5 weapon + 10 Str + 5 Power attack) * 3 = 537,5. And most fighters are dwaves, so they could use battle axe. Even if the fighter would be using longswords, that would still be 50 damage per swing. but that's hell of a gimped fighter you got there. Oh, and you can add 7 damage to both at least. +5 Flaming of Pure Good are fairly cheap on the AH.

I still believe it'll take you team less than 6s to get that mob down.

4 + 4 + 9 + 3 = 20 x 2. My crit would be 40 damage with no backstab on average. Without a haste, this guy is swinging much slower than my rogue's speed attack too. A 400 hp foe held I'd rather swing 1 time and dispatch than 10 times if he was held and I hit on every attack and auto-cirtt'd for my average. That's 9 swings I can use to take on something else that may be after the caster, the healer, the rogue, etc.

I'm not sure I'm getting this part, but!

If the mob is helpless, you'll get free sneak attacks and critical hits. So your fighter-rogue will be getting much more damage.

and, if you use Coup de Grace, that means your character will stand still for 6s... doing nothing.

[fefnir3284]

but you guy would have to remember this. if we get coup (one shot kills on held mobs) then mobs would have one shot kills on us, and I know from experience that when i was held I was flipping out and about 2/3 of the time the held ran out and I survived, I do not want this and Im sure once every 6/8 will power tank with 1000 hps will not want it either after the first time they are held and killed by a 2 point strike from a mob...

[MrCow]

Stun/Shout allows critical hits.

They allow critical hits? Last time I checked being stunned (from soundburst and greater shout) caused you to lose your DEX bonus to AC. Being stunned from stunning blow and mind blast, on the other hand, allow critical hits.

Side trivia fact: Did you know a mind flayer will suck your brain out regardless of the type of stun?

[Borror0]

Being stunned from stunning blow and mind blast, on the other hand, allow critical hits.

I assumed there were the same, but you're right. Soundburst != Critical hits. But would it allow Coup de Grace?

[Borror0]

if we get coup (one shot kills on held mobs) then mobs would have one shot kills on us

Well, it's a 6s activation so... you have the time for a save.

EDIT:

Wasn't auto-crit an inherent thing in D&D providing you made your regular attack roll?

Ok, just got that one confirmed by buddies (sometimes I mix DDO and D&D, so I asks those who don't play DDO), no you don't get auto-crit on an helpless mobs. It's DDO's version of Coup de Grace. Honestly, I think it works better in DDO's active combat system. Standing around for 6 seconds is silly, not very fun, and not so effective.

[dameron]

but you guy would have to remember this. if we get coup (one shot kills on held mobs) then mobs would have one shot kills on us, and I know from experience that when i was held I was flipping out and about 2/3 of the time the held ran out and I survived, I do not want this and Im sure once every 6/8 will power tank with 1000 hps will not want it either after the first time they are held and killed by a 2 point strike from a mob...

Every 6/8 will power tank with 1000hps and who doesn't carry a heavy fort item will not want it.

Also, melee rounds in DDO are 2 seconds long, the very justification for reducing the save interval for Holds from 6 seconds to 2 seconds, so I see no reason why Coup de Grace would need to take 6 seconds.

[lobode]

All this would do is have the devs start handing out heavy fort on high end mobs. It is a tactic we do not need in this fast paced game as like the others said we take down those mobs in less than 6s anyways. All that you are really advocating is a nerf on melee.

[Aranticus]

the more serious question i'd ask is....... which L16 doesnt have any power 5 item?

[Borror0]

the more serious question i'd ask is....... which L16 doesnt have any power 5 item?

Exactly, I get one almost every Shroud run.

[GORAK]

If the coup de grace were given to us then it would have to be given to the monsters as well. I do not like the idea of being held and killed in one shot from a single monster. It's like I had no chance to even survive. Many tanks have low will saves and many times they can stay held for nearly 10-15 seconds from a series of failed will saves. This situation is dangerous enough from the auto-crits but to be killed in one shot from a coup de grace would hurt higher level groups more. A held 12, 14 or 16 fighter with 200+ hit points killed outright when held from coup de grace would really irritate people from the equipment repair bills and cleric resource drain. At least when a tank or someone else is held and getting beat on by monsters, the cleric can still heal them while they are held and increase their chances of survival.
Another aspect where coup de grace would hurt would be solo players. Hold person/monster is bad enough as it is and usually a decent solo build has enough hit points to survive the hold until he makes a saving throw. Add in the coup de grace then then it's pretty much hold person and you're dead. It would make kobold shamans even more deadly for low level characters in general.

[Eladrin]

Auto-criticals when struck while helpless are intended to simulate the coup de grace rule, without requiring a one round wind-up or a forced death check. We also don't do the "make a DC 15 Fort Save or die" for massive damage. Adding a death check in either circumstance would greatly increase the amount of random player deaths - getting held is often bad enough.

[binnsr]

Auto-criticals when struck while helpless are intended to simulate the coup de grace rule, without requiring a one round wind-up or a forced death check. We also don't do the "make a DC 15 Fort Save or die" for massive damage. Adding a death check in either circumstance would greatly increase the amount of random player deaths - getting held is often bad enough.

thanks for the response, E. I personally think adding in the DC15/die save would add a bit of flavor sometimes. Perhaps having that happen on Elite?

[binnsr]

the more serious question i'd ask is....... which L16 doesnt have any power 5 item?

I have yet to pull a finessable vorpal, so my rogue does not have that. Nor does my HRC fighter have a vorpal or smiter (but she's still 10 so there's time)

My cleric only has a paralyzer - no real need for the others when I've got spellpoints

My battlemage doesn't have a vorpal yet


come to think of it, I think my vorpal-luck sucks