Weekly Developer Activities - 2/18/08

[Kerr]

Wow... aside from wanting to see some extra content with this "Anniversary" release this is one of the best WDA's Ive seen inna long time. You guys really heard some of our concerns and put some great changes into effect. Dragon Armor repair is gonna be a huge benefit and thanks for that one. Improving Way of the Assassin was another good move to make it worth taking. To much good stuff to mention all at once. Simply put...
GREAT JOB ON THIS ONE DEVS!!!

While I applaud the choice to give a crafter in Meridia that doesn't require relics to repair Dragon armor, I do have to ask why not just eliminate the relics required to repair them at all? Now anyone wanting to repair their Dragon armor will only go to Meridia.

[wiglin]

Little off topic

Except 1 trap/chest in the game making a pure rogue to have the abiltiy to be just a trapsmith and gimping his combat capability is not worth it and i will never understand why someone would do that to their rogue for 1 Chest..

I have been able to make my rogue to be able to reliably ( survive even the new trap DC on elite, find and disarm every trap but 1 with 0 combat gimp.

I save Vs traps is + 35 unbuffed and I can get it to + 43 with no help from others... And buffed it can go even higher..

This is with 0 gimping to my combat abilities...

I can do everything a trapsmith build can do but 1 chest.. is a trapsmith build worth it?

I agree it is not worth it under current game mechanics.

What I have been reading so far is that rogue are needing 50-60+ reflex saves for the same traps that where once only needing 30+. This is a bit of a stretch and needs to be toned a little. Now if what you are saying is true and a rogue can reliably make their saves on elite with a 40-45 reflex save, then I say that sounds fair enough. 40-45 does not gimp combat, but the 50-60 that I have been reading about on the forums does, since it takes feats to get that high.

what I do not agree with is upping the difficulty of traps or saves to make rogues more valuable. All that does is discourage players from running those quests. I can't tell you how many times I have invited a rogue because they said they could disarm a certain trap only to blow it up and blame it on a 1 which is not an auto failure anyway.

[MysticTheurge]

Again it really kind of boils down to the fact that class balance is far less important in D&D than it is in DDO, because in D&D you're working with a static group of 3-5 other people on a regular basis, and you can work together to make sure all your bases are covered.

If no one wants to play a rogue, someone can play an arcane trickster and fill in the gap. If you have a rogue and an arcane trickster in the same party, they start to know who's got what strengths and they can work together.

In DDO, you don't really work together, at least not in the same way. And people can start to become redundant. And that's a problem.

[Vormaerin]

what I do not agree with is upping the difficulty of traps or saves to make rogues more valuable.

Yeah, I agree with this statement (except for the part about upping difficulty. There hasn't been any increase in the DCs for Disarm, Search, or Spot. Its just more damage and harder saves if you end up in the trap). I think that upping the damage from traps was a very good idea, not because it makes rogues more valuable, but because it makes traps more in line with the dangers of the rest of an elite quest. There are still plenty of ways around or through traps without a rogue, its just more appropriately painful. Since we are talking elite, these are quests that people have run several times before. So being 'ambushed' by a trap isn't a likely event.

The new DCs are pretty extreme, though. As far as I know, the 60s and higher numbers being thrown around were speculations about how things would scale up, not actual figures. There are some documented low 50s, IIRC. Since you can get to the +70s range as a rogue..if that's all you want to do... I don't think 40s and 50s are that gimping for high level elite.

The low level elite DCs in the 30s are pretty sick, but none of those quests require you to go into the trap anyway. Nor is the damage fatal unless you get hit multiple times (admittedly entirely possible).

[Staedtler]

Will fighters, barbarians, clerics or arcanes be getting new enhancements?

Nothing in mod 6 and nothing (yet) for mod 7?

[Bradik_Losdar]

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY IN XEN'DRIK - CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THE MULTI-CLASS v. PURE CLASS DISCUSSION TO ANOTHER THREAD!!!!!!

[Nataichal]

1 thing. Can you edit the tip on rest shines resetting to also include lanscapes?

[dragnmoon]

PnP traps just involve Search and Disable Device. Also, there are other options (Able Learner) that make a multi-class Wizard/Rogue trivial to accomplish well.

Ummm.. Spot to..

*gm* Make a Spot check
*rogue* Ok I rolled a 30..
*gm* Ok you see a Trap set up ahead that if you stepped on that plate on the floor a blade would have shot out cutting you at the knees... Wow luckily you made that spot check so you can search for trap mechanism so you can disable it..

Spot is a very import Trapsmith skill...

[ArkoHighStar]

I agree it is not worth it under current game mechanics.

What I have been reading so far is that rogue are needing 50-60+ reflex saves for the same traps that where once only needing 30+. This is a bit of a stretch and needs to be toned a little. Now if what you are saying is true and a rogue can reliably make their saves on elite with a 40-45 reflex save, then I say that sounds fair enough. 40-45 does not gimp combat, but the 50-60 that I have been reading about on the forums does, since it takes feats to get that high.

what I do not agree with is upping the difficulty of traps or saves to make rogues more valuable. All that does is discourage players from running those quests. I can't tell you how many times I have invited a rogue because they said they could disarm a certain trap only to blow it up and blame it on a 1 which is not an auto failure anyway.

One of the things i noticed in the new content, is fewer traps overall, only Rainbow in the dark has any, and of those 2 of them lead to chests only, and none require you to be in the trap to disable, so really we are looking at maybe 20% of traps in the game that require the player to either pass through the trap or stand in it to disable. The MC rogue can still disable the box without issue as dd dc's have not changed. I however am of the opinion that a full rogue should enjoy an advantage in traps over an MC rogue, simply because it is a core ability and they are provided class feats to enhance it.
Saying an MC rogue should be as effective as a full rogue when it comes to saving against traps, is like saying I take one lvl of barbarian and I should get all levels of rage enhancements, or taking 2 lvls of wizards and gaining acces to lvl 8 spells, take 2 lvls of anything and all the benefit you should get is 2 levels. Some would argue that things like barabarian rage define the class so it is not a fair comparision, but trap sense is a class granted feat, so while it is not the only thing that defines a rogue it is a core innate ability, and should be recognized as such.

[dragnmoon]

You are confusing "rogue" with "trapsmith"(alot of ppl do that here) Listen is completely optional for a trapsmith, hide and move silently are handled via invis and silence(flexability/creativity). Open Knock? I have no idea how to handle that one Thats leaves about 3 skills and DDO like PnP I did have to gimp my concentration making getting hit while casting problematic at best. They had it right by PnP, all they needed to do was up the damage. This was a change (further)away from 3.5 and for the the worse imho.

Always liked spot for my MC rogues in PnP, saved me more times than I know Im sure.

If you noticed.. I pointed out what skill were important for trapsmitthing.. :-p.. all others are important rogue skills...

[Kerr]

Will fighters, barbarians, clerics or arcanes be getting new enhancements?

Nothing in mod 6 and nothing (yet) for mod 7?

Fighters are doing fine as is. Barbarians already have enough. What else do you suggest they add? Clerics could use full access to metamagic enhancements. But what do arcanes need?

[ArkoHighStar]

Ummm.. Spot to..

*gm* Make a Spot check
*rogue* Ok I rolled a 30..
*gm* Ok you see a Trap set up ahead that if you stepped on that plate on the floor a blade would have shot out cutting you at the knees... Wow luckily you made that spot check so you can search for trap mechanism so you can disable it..

Spot is a very import Trapsmith skill...

in pnp spot has nothing to do with traps, in pnp it is all about search. Basically the dm is expecting you to make an active search to find a trap.
edit: look at any 3.5 module there is no spot check for any trap, just a search and dd or ol check, spot checks for traps is a ddo only feature to speed up gameplay

Spot (Wis)
Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.

Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.

Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

[dragnmoon]

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY IN XEN'DRIK - CAN WE PLEASE MOVE THE MULTI-CLASS v. PURE CLASS DISCUSSION TO ANOTHER THREAD!!!!!!

ROFLOL..

If a thread goes off subject as much as this one has.. *kind of*... I just usually ignore those posts and read the relevant ones..

[ArkoHighStar]

ROFLOL..

If a thread goes off subject as much as this one has.. *kind of*... I just usually ignore those posts and read the relevant ones..

I don't think he reads these often, because I think every week, one item dominates a few pages, then someone brings up another items and we move on to that.

[Bracosius]

While I applaud the choice to give a crafter in Meridia that doesn't require relics to repair Dragon armor, I do have to ask why not just eliminate the relics required to repair them at all? Now anyone wanting to repair their Dragon armor will only go to Meridia.

Careful or the horse may bite you.

Why waste time re-coding the gianthold guys. As long as we have a non-relic option I am happy.

[dragnmoon]

in pnp spot has nothing to do with traps, in pnp it is all about search. Basically the dm is expecting you to make an active search to find a trap.
edit: look at any 3.5 module there is no spot check for any trap, just a search and dd or ol check, spot checks for traps is a ddo only feature to speed up gameplay

Huh... your right...

I never actually played it that way..

as a GM I always played it if a situtation allowed for the chance of spotting a trigger for a trap I would allow a spot check to see if it the rogue notices it before it was set up...

But your right..

But having a Paranoid Group (aren't they all) searching every spot to see if there may be a trap would slow things down allot!!

But I guess I have been using a house rule... oh well..

[Aspenor]

Huh... your right...

I never actually played it that way..

as a GM I always played it if a situtation allowed for the chance of spotting a trigger for a trap I would allow a spot check to see if it the rogue notices it before it was set up...

But your right..

But having a Paranoid Group (aren't they all) searching every spot to see if there may be a trap would slow things down allot!!

But I guess I have been using a house rule... oh well..

But an important point of note, a good DM will give a subtle hint as to the presence of a trap, even if it's just a little thing such as a detailed description of the room. At least, that's how I feel. The spot check mechanism kindof advertises to your players something is there, with you picking up the dice and rolling them.

[dragnmoon]

in pnp spot has nothing to do with traps, in pnp it is all about search. Basically the dm is expecting you to make an active search to find a trap.
edit: look at any 3.5 module there is no spot check for any trap, just a search and dd or ol check, spot checks for traps is a ddo only feature to speed up gameplay

Ok I did some digging... and the D&D FAQ points out that a Spot check can be used too see if something is amiss hinting that there may be a trap somewhere...But search would be used to actually find the trap then. they give no clues on what the DC would be.. But it is not really a set rule and more of the sage suggesting a house rule.

Edit: Eeeek... Aspenor beat me again!! Curses Foiled again!

[Luthen]

While I applaud the choice to give a crafter in Meridia that doesn't require relics to repair Dragon armor, I do have to ask why not just eliminate the relics required to repair them at all? Now anyone wanting to repair their Dragon armor will only go to Meridia.

Ya see... this is where we start getting a bad rep as whiney complainers who are never happy. We have asked for an alternative to repair Dragon Armors and they gave it to us. You questioning it sort of invalidates the good work they just did. Be happy that they gave us exactly what we asked for. Who cares if the repair person is in Timbuktoo or Meridia. It's in the game and we can access it. Good enough for everyone.

EDIT: Also... leaving the relic repairers in Giant Hold still allows people who do enjoy farming relics a cheap alternative to repair the armors rather then spending plat.

Careful or the horse may bite you.

Why waste time re-coding the gianthold guys. As long as we have a non-relic option I am happy.

Exactly.

[binnsr]

Who cares if the repair person is in Timbuktoo or Meridia. It's in the game and we can access it. Good enough for everyone.

I think I'd actually care (just a tiny-bit) if the repair person was in part-5 of the Shroud.. so location does matter a tiny bit