I need a little help with combat dc´s in epic levels. trip, stunning blow

[Sormiron]

I have realy tried to make it work but I just cant trip anything else than casters.
lvl 20 fighter, all past lives, tomes, vanguard

when i use every buff I can my dc´s for trip is 89 and 119 for shield rush. shield rush works on most things it hits except archers. I think the area for hitting is a bit tiny and hard to use but it works. just the trip only works on casters.
this is fresh at lvl 20 and the quests I´ve done is von 1-4, and the house D pirate chain. I realy thought I had high dc´s but I guess not.

My stunning blow gets up to 100 and works on most things, even orange mobs. but I kinda wonder if it will continue to be usefull at lvl 30 with the escalation of numbers.

what dc´s should I be looking at to keep things working smoothly from lvl 20-32 and how do I reach those numbers? I´d be greatfull for aid.

[Tilomere]

I have realy tried to make it work but I just cant trip anything else than casters.
lvl 20 fighter, all past lives, tomes, vanguard

when i use every buff I can my dc´s for trip is 89 and 119 for shield rush. shield rush works on most things it hits except archers.

My guess: Shield rush is a fort save trip. Various mobs have trip resistance, apparently especially archers, which if it is like turn resistance (tougher turning mobs include elementals/greater undead) means mobs get up to doubled effective CR, which means doubled saves vs. effect. As a fort save, you are targeting 60+ Fort save archers, which doubled would be 120+, and by end game at 100+ fort save will require 200+ trip or so, ish.

Try a bear it is balance check instead, and mob balance is much lower than mob fort.

[Sormiron]

Thank you for the answer. that is very interesting. it doesnt explain the trip feat though, unless it has been changed to fort based too now.
i remember being able to trip things in early epics with much much lower dc´s and concidered a trip dc of 50 failproof. this was before reaper was implemented though so I wonder if it is a reaper thing maybe. I´m gonna test it to see if just jumping from elite to r1 demands another 40+ dc´s.

I know that a bearcharge worked even in endgame some year ago or so. so I think you are on to something though. I love playing bears, this time around I wanted to play the master of tactics and trip/stun everything hehe. doesnt work that way it seems.

edit: tested trip in epic elite. Still doesnt work so it is not reaper that is the problem. I wasnt fast enough to catch the save tesct but the image of the dc is here. https://ibb.co/Fm9rB4C
I managed to trip one orc but undead pirates is a no go. 86 dc epic elite. I´m gonna try again when I have crafted a vertigo item.

[Tilomere]

I love playing bears, this time around I wanted to play the master of tactics and trip/stun everything hehe. doesnt work that way it seems.

A FvS is currently the tactical master with Celestial Bombardment, Color Spray, and BoGW on a dragonborn. Or a Sorc with mass hold with a 2.5 second cool down + Color Spray, and BoGW. Druid Tsunami + Color Spray, and BoGW is up there as well.

I don't think it is reaper mode, as much as the trip resistance multipliers. I used soundburst on my melee builds for a reason.

[Sormiron]

A FvS is currently the tactical master with Celestial Bombardment, Color Spray, and BoGW on a dragonborn. Or a Sorc with mass hold with a 2.5 second cool down + Color Spray, and BoGW. Druid Tsunami + Color Spray, and BoGW is up there as well.

I don't think it is reaper mode, as much as the trip resistance multipliers. I used soundburst on my melee builds for a reason.

I know, but it doesnt seem right and acceptable that you need another class with other abilities to do what stunning blow and trip should do for fighters.

here is another attempt for science. https://ibb.co/LdJZ778

that is 104 trip dc on a zombie archer in epic elite.my toon is 21. i know for a fact that I have tripped them without problems before at dc´s of 50-60 but that might be a few years ago.
I can trip the orcs at that dc though. not champions but that is something. every other mob but the casters are immune it seems.

I am going to call this not working as intended. i kinda concider stunning blow and trip to be beginner feats that never work for a beginners sadly. I am sad.

[Monkey_Archer]

I am going to call this not working as intended. i kinda concider stunning blow and trip to be beginner feats that never work for a beginners sadly. I am sad.

Unfortunately it is intended. It was brought to the attention of the devs many times over a year ago during the stat squish that tactics, especially trips, were essentially useless.
I never understood why they think a single target non-helpless cc that slows your attack speed is so powerful that it must be balanced with garbage tier dcs and trip resistances...

However, if you really want to trip things, just use adrenaline and bypass the dc mechanic entirely.

[Sormiron]

Unfortunately it is intended. It was brought to the attention of the devs many times over a year ago during the stat squish that tactics, especially trips, were essentially useless.
I never understood why they think a single target non-helpless cc that slows your attack speed is so powerful that it must be balanced with garbage tier dcs and trip resistances...

However, if you really want to trip things, just use adrenaline and bypass the dc mechanic entirely.

I dont want to go as far as thinking that it is intended to not work. It think something happened when something was changed, it possibly has been forgotten or is one of those balance issues and/or they have not come up with good answer to the change.

I just played with a guy today that said he had dc´s within 50-60 range when he played his toon as a monk and he thought trip was awsome. he was trying to troubleshoot me, asking if I was hitting or bypassing dr and such.

My point is that it HAS worked and something happened.

Getting dc´s for trip and stunning blow to work endgame has always been hard but it was made possible with slavers gear for me. that is some time ago.

It does not make sense to put trip bonuses on past lives and in the fury of the wild tree if it was not ment to help to get it to work. though I admit I do not understand the text " Improved Trip also causes all affected enemies to be tripped unless they succeed at a balance check (DC equal to Improved Trip)." from be the whirlwind. I kinda thought that is what trip and improved trip was for. I am going to dismiss that as a typing error.

I would like to know if people can trip with other classes such a barbarian with high strenght or a bear. just to rule out it being a class feat problem or the like.

Edit: I forgot to mention wolves, they use trip mechanics a lot and people should possibly be playing them now with the new pastlives.

[Lotoc]

though I admit I do not understand the text " Improved Trip also causes all affected enemies to be tripped unless they succeed at a balance check (DC equal to Improved Trip)." from be the whirlwind. I kinda thought that is what trip and improved trip was for. I am going to dismiss that as a typing error.

That effect makes the aoe bludgeoning damage apply an improved trip check basically, making improved trip a true aoe rather than being limited by your strikethrough%.

Unfortunately when it comes to tactical feats you pretty much need to be strength based and either going fighter picking up class specific feats for tactics bonuses, slotting tactics DC filigrees or just not getting high enough DCs to be consistent in endgame reapers.

[Sormiron]

That effect makes the aoe bludgeoning damage apply an improved trip check basically, making improved trip a true aoe rather than being limited by your strikethrough%.

Unfortunately when it comes to tactical feats you pretty much need to be strength based and either going fighter picking up class specific feats for tactics bonuses, slotting tactics DC filigrees or just not getting high enough DCs to be consistent in endgame reapers.

thank you for clarifying that.

the point I am trying to make now is that I am not in the endgame yet and I got a dc of 100 ish. it is not working at lvl 20. I might not have a fully decked out sentient weapon at lvl 20 but it also shouldnt be in the requirements I think.

[Lotoc]

100 should be working on anything actually trippable at that level, in fact it should have a higher rate than stun, however trip does have an awkward animation which may not have the proper range and require being much closer.
Are your trip attempts actually connecting and doing damage?

[Captain_Wizbang]

While shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward in a line, delivering a shield bash to every creature hit. Each enemy is knocked down for [+2/+4/+6] (W) damage. The knockdown is negated on Fortitude saving throw vs DC(20 + highest ability modifier + class level + bonus to trip attacks). [60/45/25] seconds cooldown.


My Dwarf Kensai or Vanguard (both trip/stun build) have no problem with trips except for a few enemies,(high saves). For shld rush with high DC str builds, a simple fort bypass (I'll look at one tonight) item helps.

I do know the trip animation can be borked, and/or not work at all, It's been like that for years.

[Sormiron]

While shield equipped, Activate: Rush forward in a line, delivering a shield bash to every creature hit. Each enemy is knocked down for [+2/+4/+6] (W) damage. The knockdown is negated on Fortitude saving throw vs DC(20 + highest ability modifier + class level + bonus to trip attacks). [60/45/25] seconds cooldown.


My Dwarf Kensai or Vanguard (both trip/stun build) have no problem with trips except for a few enemies,(high saves). For shld rush with high DC str builds, a simple fort bypass (I'll look at one tonight) item helps.

I do know the trip animation can be borked, and/or not work at all, It's been like that for years.

Ok I submitted a bugreport on this. It turns out I can trip/stun with a 2handed weapon just fine. but when using a Shield the DC requirements seem to double or worse. The hits connect, deal damage and I get the saved floating text.
It is all very odd.

Edit: I am playing an orc vanguard using dwarven axe in mainhand and a shield.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Ok I submitted a bugreport on this. It turns out I can trip/stun with a 2handed weapon just fine. but when using a Shield the DC requirements seem to double or worse. The hits connect, deal damage and I get the saved floating text.
It is all very odd.

Edit: I am playing an orc vanguard using dwarven axe in mainhand and a shield.

Tower shield?

[Tilomere]

Actual DC could be tied to the strength modifier of trip attack. Try test TWF, and if that is the case, and your bug report ends up nerfing all THF and SWF melee, well, there is always soundburst.

[Sormiron]

Actual DC could be tied to the strength modifier of trip attack. Try test TWF, and if that is the case, and your bug report ends up nerfing all THF and SWF melee, well, there is always soundburst.

I will test twf but I dont think it is it. I could use a dwarven axe in one hand and nothing in other. I will use some longsword or something aswell.

I am using a barovian Dwarven Axe and best defense heroic.

[Sormiron]

I´ve done some extended testing and I got baffled once I got to eveningstar. I could trip everything without a problem. no switching of weapons or anything and with lower dc´s. I then went back to the black loch and I needed about 116 trip dc to trip the zombie archers regulary and 106 dc gave me no trouble with the orcs. I moved on to the final quest in that chain and it was about the same for human archers. my guess now is that house P, house D, the Von chain all got some crazy DC requirements. what led me to belive that it was the shield and board was that I switched in the lord of dust chain and I could trip some things all the sudden. I have not tested wich mobs exactly.

I dont know know if it is just the quests or some other issue at this moment. I would like to see the results of someone else using trip.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I´ve done some extended testing and I got baffled once I got to eveningstar. I could trip everything without a problem. no switching of weapons or anything and with lower dc´s. I then went back to the black loch and I needed about 116 trip dc to trip the zombie archers regulary and 106 dc gave me no trouble with the orcs. I moved on to the final quest in that chain and it was about the same for human archers. my guess now is that house P, house D, the Von chain all got some crazy DC requirements. what led me to belive that it was the shield and board was that I switched in the lord of dust chain and I could trip some things all the sudden. I have not tested wich mobs exactly.

I dont know know if it is just the quests or some other issue at this moment. I would like to see the results of someone else using trip.

Something IS amiss. Tested last night on dwf pally, thf & s&b, morgrave series, lvl 12 on R1 & leet. something is not applying my full modifiers, my build is a simple dwf, str tactics build, All of a sudden, Im not getting the normal results Im used to seeing. I'll get into a detailed test later today.

[Tilomere]

I know, but it doesnt seem right and acceptable that you need another class with other abilities to do what stunning blow and trip should do for fighters.

I think it is fair because a Dragonborn FvS for example has to start at 1, and level to 20 as a pure class, or lose 35% ability to land spells (7 DC), while a vangaurd can start at 15, and picking up divine might and barb run speed don't really lose anything starting as any iconic. So the FvS has to level 4x as much to get to legendary midskull reaper where rewards are for leveling and also has a far more restrictive build regimen. Higher investment and restrictions requires higher payoffs to be balanced, so a FvS caster should be a better tactician than a fighter. It is balanced economically.

[Sormiron]

I think it is fair because a Dragonborn FvS for example has to start at 1, and level to 20 as a pure class, or lose 35% ability to land spells (7 DC), while a vangaurd can start at 15, and picking up divine might and barb run speed don't really lose anything starting as any iconic. So the FvS has to level 4x as much to get to legendary midskull reaper where rewards are for leveling and also has a far more restrictive build regimen. Higher investment and restrictions requires higher payoffs to be balanced, so a FvS caster should be a better tactician than a fighter. It is balanced economically.

I did not intend to attack fvs or any other classes cc abilities. I love them. They are fun to play. What i ment was simply that stunning blow and trip should be viable to usefor melees. Personally i think it should be possible to use these abilities on any type of character that focuses on high strength and tactical dc's. I built this pure fighter only to get high dcs, using know the angles wich requires past lives to get spell points to use. This is how i got my dc's over 100 at 20. If trip then doesnt even work then, then there is a problem. So i am not looking for a war over wich class needs a nerf or not. Just stating that i do think something is wrong
Im 29 no and it works in eveningstar, but i do know that i have very high dc's for atoon running these quests. I see some failed trips when i do not have rage, powersurge and know the angles up. I got 116 dcs on basic trip/stun with all up. I can not trip the giants wich i could do a couple years ago with maybe a litle more than half of that. I'll see how it goes at cap. There has always been a large DC jump from what goes up to ravenloft.

[Sormiron]

i´ve done some more gameplay but I have come to the point where I do not think it is worth the effort.

Trip works, stun works. but the dc´s are too high to validate the effort and sacrifice in my opinion. I got to where I had 131 on trip, taking improved trip from the epic destiny. I do not have a fully decked out sentient weapon. i got 5 slots in total wich gave me +2 trip and some strength. I can get maybe 5-6 strength more from gear if I get augments with exceptional and so on. I can get +4 more dc´s if I switch lvl 30 feat but i would lose melee power and the damage isnt that great as it is. I am using +3 trip iconic stance, +6 martial pastlife stance. I can get +6 more trip from epic destinies. The damage is okish but not great. 131 is enough to trip most melees, some 4 legged dinos now and then on reaper 4, archers seems to be untouchable in general for some reason and ofc champions, unless I use Shield charge wich got 160 dc or so i think. I wanted to believe in shield charge but the hitbox is so narrow that if i try to hit two mobs standing shoulder to shoulder at once I miss both and I get teleported back to where I started quite often if I try to change aim too much to hit another mob.

Maybe it can be worth for someone who realy enjoys this playstyle to invest in it endgame. to me this seems iffy. specially the lvl 20-22 dc´s. that just doesnt seem right to me.
To me stunning blow and trip isnt realy worth all this hazzle to get the dc´s. too large cd to hit maybe 3 mobs with strikethrough. What I enjoyed the most was stunning plague reapers with the shield and then using adrenaline nealy killing it off in one blow. that part was fun. I was reasonably tanky. i could keep myself up quite ok in r4 using a pot for +50% healamp, use the fighter selfheal or rage for a small heal or primal scream.
Be the whirlwind didnt seem to make a difference when using trip. I never tripped more than 3 targets wich is where my strikethrough was at.

I do know I sound a bit sour and I guess I am. it is mostly becouse I am worried about where the dc requirements are headed in this game. Ddo is a strange game in that way that either you have the dc´s or things do not work. If you are a new player and you decide that you want to use these abilities. it´s not gonna happen unless someone, better than I, comes up with a specific build for that person.