Tactics vs Spells DCs: let’s talk about balance

[Seph1roth5]

First off, it's nice that you can solo reaper 10, but I think you're in the way upper end of the curve there, and don't think ANYthing should be balanced in respect to that. That's like saying "My character has 30,000HP please make mobs do more damage."

Second, lol *** game have you been playing these 10 years? I'm one of the least cynical people in the game, and am super optimistic. Whenever nerfs are announced like inquisitive, quest xp, optional ransack, orchard slayer, monks, etc., I'm always the one telling my friends wait and see or it's not that bad. But even I can see that if devs agreed with anything you said, all they'd do is nerf all the stuff you mentioned, not increase the power of everything else.

Nothing good can come of this.

[Tilomere]

I think that is the problem as well. These days you have 3-4 melee in a group all with Direcharge at 130+ which means even if one mob saves or gets a miss, they certainly won't miss the next all hitting 1-2 seconds later

Doesn't this also mean that single target strike through CC is also basically pointless?

You seem to disagree with OP and say the problem is Dire Charge.

Tweaked build because I forgot reaper tactics and combat infusion str. Swapping those in for PL stance brings DS to 100%. Added in dps ED FoTW.

[Pilgrim1]

Its not dire charge thats over performing, its confront any foe. Confront lets you hit 6 times in an aoe cleave in a fraction of a second, then when you get to boss you can unload it as fast as you can click, stacked with other buffs right this nets you with between 40 to 60 thousand damage per second.

Try doing your r10 runs without confront any foe. It will be much much more difficult.

[Nickodeamous]

.

I think that is the problem as well. These days you have 3-4 melee in a group all with Direcharge at 130+ which means even if one mob saves or gets a miss, they certainly won't miss the next all hitting 1-2 seconds later

Lets also not forget that dire charge does not work on skeletons, wraiths, undead, constructs, etc. so, basically most of ravenloft as well as a large number of other quests (orchard comes to mind). You can have 500 DC and those suckers will still come at you. This is where cater holds come into play, or better yet, energy bursts for the one shot.

[DrawingGuy]

I would argue this point for r1 and elite gameplay, but in r10 caster specific cc is a mana drain.
Web dissapears faster then you can recast it /i hope people get what i mean with this, disco is useful for initial cc but duration of the dance and the sphere is almost non existent, sburst needs to be spammed for it to be of effective use in r10, command being the prolly best spell due to its initial long duration, equake is terrible and not worth casting at all, hold monster is most populat but it still has its issues due to mix of champs of whom many have issues.

Control spells in general from casting side are reduced in duration for most classes /alchemist having the upper hand now due to the cut of cc still being useful, but the class still being terrible at boss dps and reaper cc.

The duration reduction is capped to 6 seconds minimum, putting it on par with stuns. This does make the old long duration shutdown spells of dancing ball, earthquake, and web moot in comparison to the harder CCs that cause helplessness like Mass Holds. While a Wizard may struggle to outspam an unextended web in R10, Sorc and Warlock certainly can. But then Web is more of a backup CC for certain mob types anyways.

Alchemist CCs are pretty insane. Flash Freeze works on almost all corporeal targets, no crown type protects against it, and has a very long duration. Flesh to Gold has the flesh qualifier, but lasts even longer. In R10, freezing/golding a mob is the same as killing it as you can go take a nap and still have time to go kill it. Reaper CC is indeed its weak point - you can't confuse Veng reapers, and while confusion will stop special attacks it doesn't stop them entirely unless you get lucky and it breaks the AI (still a good mob grouping tool). There are ways around that with Gnome and Salt LGS, but having someone that can CC reapers in party definitely helps. "Terrible boss DPS" is an overstatement - I haven't done DPS tests for direct numbers, but it is still in the thousands for R10 and that outpaces many melee builds. And my caster SHOULD do less DPS than melees. Not only do I get to do my DPS from complete safety, but it doesn't have a target limit, I can chose where I apply it, and applies to a much much larger area (being able to hit 2-3 targets doesn't matter if they are not close enough to be in your arc). In everything leading up to the boss fight, my caster's DPS was magnitudes more than melees, so can accept the lower boss DPS while I easily apply vulnerable + LGS debuffs that THF can't without kicking their DPS in the teeth and causing swap lag.

Here is the thing, a mob a champ has some kind of ward, most wards negate most school spells, so as a caster you have 3 layers, first is dc check layer, 2nd is spell resistance layer and third is the random immunity layer that comes with champs.

As a melee, i see a pack i rush into it with dire, i do not really care if some mob rolls a 20 since a 2nd dire from another player will follow up, and a third from another player, while we move trough packs on zerg speed.
There is no jumping around involved, wasd pro skills. I see a target i go kill it, i have the dps to take it down before it can do any big harm to me due to multiple layers of cc and defenses i have.

Mobs weak saves do not matter, when my dcs are so high that even if i hit its highest save, i still succeed.
As a caster cc oriented, if you fail its save, and it has a champ state that makes it immune to its weak spell what can you do?

Take example a hero champ, im a necro player, i have skyhigh necro dc and play in magister, my focus is to instakill mobs and cry when we get to a boss or rednamed.
Mob a champ has dward, what can i do?
I can hold it, for dps aka melee to beat down on it.
But why would i play a pm wiz if i can play a melee who can cc the mob himself and kill it faster and more efficient then a wiz can.

Tell me how well your Dire Charge chains work on undead, constructs, oozes, reapers, golems, elementals, plants, and other stun immune monsters. How well you trip those reapers and floating/legless targets. Sure, Monk Tomb of Jade can do most of those, but is on a 60 second timer and the other jade moves are reliant on stun/vorpal making them unreliable. Luckily the 50 MRR cap for monks in an anti-evasion era makes them super popular.

A lot of caster CC is on 3-6 second timers, has multiple versions (single target and multi target), on top of variety. Your mass Hold/SB that you just cast at enlarged range outside of mob aggro range? Just single target what you missed or recast. There was a mob that was immune? Flesh to stone, glue, tentacle, web, command, finger, frog, hurl, slay, power word, or just nuke them from orbit as a priority. There are many more things that a melee can't CC than my caster can't.

Defensive layers are not exclusive to melees classes. There's a reason Necro Tanks exist, and gear + reaper trees + past lives provide more to your defensive layers than class trees do. Meld isn't exclusive to melees, and not being in range of a monster is far safer than being punched in the face. I often forgo layers of defenses on my casters because it is safer and easier to play a class that can kite so they're not worth any trade-offs, not because I can't get them.

Go to r10 and cast your control spells, go to r10 and use your tacticals and compare the duration of those 2.

Duration / numbers / and what else the class has to bring with that.

I know in all times in ddo it was much harder to play a melee in top end content and that most people do not have the knowledge to succeed in doing so, so take it for granted from people that play for a decade when they want to express a concern, the concern right now is that the specialization that casters specialized to casting have is out of place.

Not only do casters have access to lower numbers they also have to care about spellresist and extra saves reaper mobs have vs their spells.

And notice that my caster CC lasts just as long or longer? And that a caster can recast their CC as fast or faster than it expires in most cases while you're waiting on your Dire Charge timer? It is definitely true that it is much harder to build for caster DCs than it is to build for tactics. But they are also completely different beasts. Sharn did not get such a massive boost to monster saves because melees can have 190+ Dire Charge, but because caster CC and instakills are so powerful and versatile that if they can easily reach 95% success rate, it trivializes everything but the bosses. Why have multiple melees chaining dire charges avoiding swaths of content where that is useless when a single caster can just do it themselves and in all content? Caster DCs vs saves has been a balancing act for years, and always will be. The question should be, is it really fair to hide so many DC and spell pen between past lives and reaper trees? When your game is balanced against a d20 and then put over a dozen behind hundreds if not thousands of hours of grinding, it does make a serious barrier against new players wanting to be a caster and compete. Tactics, already having their higher limitations of target types/timers/melee risk, does not need to be placed in that box as well.

Maybe strikethrough shouldn't apply to stuns/trips as that puts a strong leg up for THF over other melee combat styles, but not because of higher tactics DCs.

[Kebtid]

Its not dire charge thats over performing, its confront any foe. Confront lets you hit 6 times in an aoe cleave in a fraction of a second, then when you get to boss you can unload it as fast as you can click, stacked with other buffs right this nets you with between 40 to 60 thousand damage per second.

Try doing your r10 runs without confront any foe. It will be much much more difficult.

But did you not read what he wrote?
It was soloed already by a melee, first melee to actually solo r10 way before this update was vinci, our guildie who did that exactly by abusing tacticals on a bard.
Not CaF but tacticals, its the exact problem we anticipated back then which escalated into the mess we have.

[Monkey_Archer]

I hear where you're coming from, but...

1) While it's true that casters have more than one save they can target (albeit with limited options depending on the mob type), the vast majority of instakills are fortitude-based. Playing a caster with maxed out spell DCs tends to preclude anything approximating good DPS, so even if we assume (correctly) that a divine can command some things that he can't implode, he's then left with no ability to actually kill the guy he's just commanded.

Targeting weak saves might've made sense when the primary role of a caster was cc and casters had multiple options for that, but it does not make sense in a meta where melees can bring their own cc (with better DCs than casters) and also dps.

This is true, but the thread was talking about balance, not meta. I was giving a theory on what balance looks (looked) like. Meta is just a code word for unbalanced mess caused by power creep.

3) Somewhat true, but not an accurate comparison for two reasons
- On a DC caster, DCs are typically your only way to kill something. As such, it's crucial that your DCs are reliable
- Stunning blow is more analogous to soundburst than it is to FoD. A pure DC specced character is using FoD instead of hitting things with a weapon, not instead of using stunning blow.

4) Once again, you're comparing CC to what amounts to a DC casters' ability to kill trash. In the amount of time that it takes FoD to become available, a decent melee could've used some combination of tactics and helpless damage to rip through an entire pack of mobs.

My point wasn't to compare 2 similar effects, it was to compare 2 similar actions. The action in this case is: I press an ability and the mob makes a fortitude save. The benefit the caster gets for this action is better (kill vs stun) . If you wanted to compare similar effects the best example would be quivering palm vs FOD, but now the caster has the higher DCs...

I'm not sure whose theory you're referencing, but I don't think discussing whether or not the tactics/spell DC balance used to make sense is a good way to spend our time. It currently does not, and it would be great if some sort of adjustments could be made.

Well, the point in discussing how DC balance used to make sense is a good reference point to identify what has changed that is causing problems now. A simple experiment: Remove dire charge from the game. Do the arguments for/against tactics DC buff/nerfs still make sense?

IMO the main issue is that the DC system is just broken and needs to either be converted to a D100 or AC-style system. But, (since nobody wants to discuss that) the other issue is that non-dire charge tactics SHOULD be more reliable than spells (because they are short range, able to miss, longer cooldown, and less effective, cant target weak saves, etc..) whereas dire charge should probably be less reliable than spells. Unfortunately, in game its the opposite, which leads to the 'meta' of AOE nuke helpless groups of mobs.

[SpartanKiller13]

WRT the layers of spell defense: true and agreed.
But how to lift the DC caster up to where the ought to be, while still taking into account R10 is a different playing field (metaphorically) than R1-4.

-I haven't tested this myself, but can't wards on champs be dispelled?
-Would a meta feat that bypasses resist, or at least significantly increases piercing the resist, be viable as a class feat (not a selected feat from among a limited available number of slots.)
-I do think the duration minimum needs to be at least the same as the cool-down period plus x seconds. There ought to be a minimum floor that makes sense, but Reaper was originally meant to shake things up for group mechanics

-The spam train of Dire Charge melees in the party isn't a valid argument for or against; It's a group tactic currently available and I don't think it is reasonable as evidence to either end.

Dispel is basically a no-go endgame AFAIK; it's caster-level based, and monster CL's are generally equal to their CR. Even if it works, you could dispel wards that are spellcast but not innate ones (like 6/20 champs have Deathblock not counting random effects).

High-skulls Reaper is basically 6-second CC effects; take it or leave it. Higher-duration would be nice, but the reason for CC debuff is pretty straightforward; a Magister's Mass Hold has ~156s duration base, which is slightly excessive if you can even approach no-fail.

Speaking as a melee main, Dire Charge is too good lol. I think it needs some penalty (smaller AoE, longer CD, not helpless, etc?). The amount of power it alone adds to a toon is pretty unbelievable. Also you can totally run it on your DC casters if you give up Pulse which can be pretty fun.

[Sheneran]

Ever since they gave +25% hp to melee, DC casters (and consequently casters in R10 in general) is totally subpar. Optional, except for high skulls raids. A group of DPS has always been way more effective since than. And it has nothing to do with the hp itself, it's just that I remember that this changed specifically at those days. Before that, arcane, divine and tank were a thing. As it was since reaper release in 2017 to the first half of 2018, with DC casters becoming gradually less and less useful as the overall power of the groups was getting bigger and reaper was becoming more and more like old epic elite. And caster were dead from high road until the release of reaper, and were already dying out from MotU to high road.

DC casting is a specialized hole, and those always suffer from the generalization of the game in the direction of the one trick pony that solves everything with DPS. And this kind of playstyle is more effective than specialized hole the more players are stronger than content.

DC casting also suffered a lot in raids, for the very nature of trash specialization of the style. So even in 2018, DC casters were garbage in raids because they don't have a really required hole in ravenloft raids, except divines, to the point more than a couple would be a waste. This also applied to KT. While DPS was good in high skull quests, and also in low and high skull raids. So more versatile character, and ofc, with less investiment (a DC caster always required more investiment than melee and that has always been like this).

Again: DC casters were useful from reaper release but gradually lost power in relation to other styles, and even in those days you would still need dps to do stuff, while DC casting already wasn't mandatory in ravenloft, when the trash was already becoming weaker and weaker than players. Nowadays, only champions and reapers do anything at all against a group of vets. I find it hilarious when people bring a full "balanced" group to quests like Grim and Barret with tank, divine, arcane and dps these days. Just bring dps and blow everything, like it was before reaper, this is the best, and has been for a long time already. Of course considering everyone is vet.

The DEVs have been trying to destroy DC casting since MotU. Because it is one of the last things that still have something to do with PnP, and they usually hate those things. The implementation of the wards, champions, reapers, and now this red named reaper says much about that. It is harder to balance DCs and easier to do with damage.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Lets also not forget that dire charge does not work on skeletons, wraiths, undead, constructs, etc. so, basically most of ravenloft as well as a large number of other quests (orchard comes to mind). You can have 500 DC and those suckers will still come at you. This is where cater holds come into play, or better yet, energy bursts for the one shot.

Yes but I was just giving one example. In practice with the DC you get from CKT and Divine Might and strikethrough changes, you can Trip 2-3 mobs each as well. Most undead and other mobs not vulnerable to stun are susceptible to trip.

Doesn't this also mean that single target strike through CC is also basically pointless?

You seem to disagree with OP and say the problem is Dire Charge.

Tweaked build because I forgot reaper tactics and combat infusion str. Swapping those in for PL stance brings DS to 100%. Added in dps ED FoTW.

No I 100% agree with the OP. I was just giving one example. Trip and stunning blow are equally good followups and as the poster above mentions stun immune mobs Trip is often the opener.

I wouldn't include combat infusion, the duration is far too low and it only triggers after 2-3 seconds (sometimes longer) of engagement which isn't that useful on high reaper.

[MaeveTuohy]

Read all the entries on this thread.

So, the casters feel they are better at CC in reaper.

The melees feel they are better at CC in reaper.

Are we done here? Can we all go home now?

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Read all the entries on this thread.

So, the casters feel they are better at CC in reaper.

The melees feel they are better at CC in reaper.

Are we done here? Can we all go home now?

I know this is intended as being sarcastic but I'm going to respond anyway.

The only real problem we have is now we have a class PDK CHA paladin that is the best of all worlds -

• Top tier DPS
• Best saves
• Top tier self heal
• Best tactics build bar none (CKT + Divine might)

And this can be achieved with minimal effort - although raid items and a big stack of past lives and reaper points make it even better. They can even run in any destiny (Fatesinger, LD or Fury) and still have these DC's.

Now compare this with a DC caster who makes massive sacrifices (DPS) and requires a huge amount of effort. They need all the past lives and have to run in a specific destiny. Very few people want to put in the effort to play as end game DC caster - the gear tetris to make it work is crazy. You have to seek every last DC point you can. Yes they are crazy powerful if they do everything it takes but they have put in the hard yards to achieve it (and are still miles away from hitting a 180+ DC like what a CHA pally can achieve with minimal effort).

For me it is clear. The synergy is just too good on PDK CHA paladins and it going to make SSG up the DC's in Feywild to crazy levels to make it a challenge. What needs to happen is Trances and CKT need to be changed. Either cap both of them of make them fixed increases based on points spent.

This is a small problem right now but it is becoming larger as more people learn about this build. Right now there is zero point to play a Fighter or Barbarian or Melee ranger or Str monk. I'm still running as a barbarian purely because I love the class (outside of DDO) but it is becoming harder and harder to resist all the goodies that you get running a Paladin. In 6 months from now when everyone knows the build there are just going to paladins running around everywhere (i've been on endgame raids with 6 already).

Note: I am not even going to mention the synergy with Confront Any Foe and Fatesinger Turn the tide.

[Capricorpus]

People are continuing to get distracted discussing whether or not high tactics DCs are achievable by non min/maxed players when that is only one of the several points being made in this thread.

It's currently mathematically impossible for a wisdom-based divine to have standing DCs that're effective in high end R10 content, and that's on a maxed character. A non maxed character (which is the example many people in this thread seem intent on using when discussing tactics DCs) would be utterly unplayable as a DC caster.

While I do feel that melee tactics DCs need to be looked at, regardless of whether or not tactics DCs were to be changed I do not feel that it should be utterly impossible for maxed out casters to achieve standing DCs that allow them to succeed a reasonable amount of time in high end content. Yes, even if we're talking about specifically instakills (which are their substitute for dps). Casting needs to be looked at and adjustments need to be made, but at the very least the bonuses that enemies get to their saves vs. spells at various percentages of health should be removed.

[Capricorpus]

This is true, but the thread was talking about balance, not meta. I was giving a theory on what balance looks (looked) like. Meta is just a code word for unbalanced mess caused by power creep.


My point wasn't to compare 2 similar effects, it was to compare 2 similar actions. The action in this case is: I press an ability and the mob makes a fortitude save. The benefit the caster gets for this action is better (kill vs stun) . If you wanted to compare similar effects the best example would be quivering palm vs FOD, but now the caster has the higher DCs...

This is true, FoD will typically have a higher DC than QP. Which it should, because QP is not the only way a monk has to kill things, whereas the same can't be said for the DC caster. There's no perfect comparison to be made between melee instakills and caster instakills because the various melee instakills (QP, assassinate, etc) are in addition to DPS as opposed to an alternative to DPS. An alternative which, by the way, would come with significant downsides even if instakills had no DCs due to the many, many mobs that're immune some or all forms of instakills. Including reapers and every single red/orange/purple name on any appreciable difficulty when playing at cap.

In order for it to be worth playing a character that uses instakill spells at all, those instakills have to be extremely effective, whereas the same cannot be said about playing a monk with an ineffective QP DC.

IMO the main issue is that the DC system is just broken and needs to either be converted to a D100 or AC-style system. But, (since nobody wants to discuss that) the other issue is that non-dire charge tactics SHOULD be more reliable than spells (because they are short range, able to miss, longer cooldown, and less effective, cant target weak saves, etc..) whereas dire charge should probably be less reliable than spells. Unfortunately, in game its the opposite, which leads to the 'meta' of AOE nuke helpless groups of mobs.

If the point you're making is that it's likely impossible to create an environment where it's necessary to max out your character to have an optimal DC success rate while simultaneously allowing non maxed out characters to not be utterly useless at DC casting then you're correct.

The D20 DC system has a relatively small range where your DCs can work but will not automatically work, and as such is extremely unforgiving to anyone who isn't able to bring their DCs within that range.

[Hawkwier]

I know this is intended as being sarcastic but I'm going to respond anyway.

The only real problem we have is now we have a class PDK CHA paladin that is the best of all worlds -

• Top tier DPS
• Best saves
• Top tier self heal
• Best tactics build bar none (CKT + Divine might)

And this can be achieved with minimal effort - although raid items and a big stack of past lives and reaper points make it even better. They can even run in any destiny (Fatesinger, LD or Fury) and still have these DC's.

Now compare this with a DC caster who makes massive sacrifices (DPS) and requires a huge amount of effort. They need all the past lives and have to run in a specific destiny. Very few people want to put in the effort to play as end game DC caster - the gear tetris to make it work is crazy. You have to seek every last DC point you can. Yes they are crazy powerful if they do everything it takes but they have put in the hard yards to achieve it (and are still miles away from hitting a 180+ DC like what a CHA pally can achieve with minimal effort).

For me it is clear. The synergy is just too good on PDK CHA paladins and it going to make SSG up the DC's in Feywild to crazy levels to make it a challenge. What needs to happen is Trances and CKT need to be changed. Either cap both of them of make them fixed increases based on points spent.

This is a small problem right now but it is becoming larger as more people learn about this build. Right now there is zero point to play a Fighter or Barbarian or Melee ranger or Str monk. I'm still running as a barbarian purely because I love the class (outside of DDO) but it is becoming harder and harder to resist all the goodies that you get running a Paladin. In 6 months from now when everyone knows the build there are just going to paladins running around everywhere (i've been on endgame raids with 6 already).

Note: I am not even going to mention the synergy with Confront Any Foe and Fatesinger Turn the tide.

This. The main issue here is the synergies between PDK and Pally and the new THF mechanic that amplifies these synergies to aoe effects.

All the other stuff has been around for ages without being such an apparent outlier.

I'm not calling for a nerf here. Certainly not on the back of the performance of a toon with such investment on PLs and RXP and gear as the OP has created. I don't think that should be penalised. He's put the hard work and build-savvy in and has earned that level of performance.

But if it transpires eventually that a nerf is needed, which will be only too apparent if/when everyone is running around with gods on their side, then it should seek to address this issue without impacting all other melee builds.

We've only just come out of the Inquisitive-uzi nonsense when frankly playing melees and getting hit in the face made little sense.

The vast majority of melee builds don't approach the performance of such an outlier, and don't need nerfed, where if soloing R10, getting one-shotted in the face is more likely the outcome than not.

Tread carefully when nerfing melees, if you really must do so at all.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

I agree with scalpel vs cleaver as well. Paladin deserves it's time in the sun. Let them have their DPS, let them have their saves and let them have their heals.

Just boost wisdom casters DC capability. Cap trances and make sure they don't stack with other insightful bonuses. Make CKT a quality bonus and don't let it stack with other quality bonuses (and maybe cap it). Keep everything else the same.

[Tist]

It's currently mathematically impossible for a wisdom-based divine to have standing DCs that're effective in high end R10 content

This board has a couple of different themes, one of which is a darkish theme. It's very difficult to read red on dark backgrounds. I basically skip your posts currently because I can't read them. If you instead used bold or italic, like you would when normally writing, your words of wisdom would be easily readable by colorblind people and folks using the other, supported themes.

[Capricorpus]

This board has a couple of different themes, one of which is a darkish theme. It's very difficult to read red on dark backgrounds. I basically skip your posts currently because I can't read them. If you instead used bold or italic, like you would when normally writing, your words of wisdom would be easily readable by colorblind people and folks using the other, supported themes.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention, if you're struggling to read red text it's entirely possible that you're not the only one. It's difficult enough to get a point across on these forums without creating additional barriers, so I've eliminated all of the red text for your viewing pleasure.

[Thrudh]

Missing fighter feats, feats (tactician, scion), enhancements...
Like I wrote, I will never run a similar DC in game because it's useless.
I don't want to use this thread to discuss my build: I posted it in the Paladin section few weeks ago including equip etc.

Link please.

I ask you to break it down, and you didn't break it down.

Looks like a PDK paladin. So your issue is with PDK paladins, not melee.. Don't say "nerf melee", when you mean "nerf PDK paladins using CHA as main stat".

Cormyrean Knight Training (1/3 CHA to DCs) AND Divine Might (1/2 CHA to DCs) is way over-powered...

I 100% agree... nerf it devs. Nuke it from orbit.

But "melee" are not overpowered with DCs... My barbarian, after a lot of work, has finally achieved 132 or so Dire Charge DC... which is good enough for high reaper in the latest content. But he can't take much nerfing.

My Dex ranger has around a 126 Dire Charge DC... and he has a lot of past-lives, reaper points, Epic Destinies, twists focused on Dire Charge DCs... 126 is decent enough, but it's not 100% no-fail... Any nerfs to "melee" would hurt him quite a bit.

[Thrudh]

CHA 107-110 (+48-50) (+25 DM)
18 base
8 tome
7 levels
7 completionist+racial completionist
9-12 enhancements (Power Surge)
22 item
9 insightful
4 quality
1 exceptional
2 guild
5 reaper
6 US
1 SW
2 Epic Feats
2 Yugo
2 remnant

How is racial completionist and heroic completionist equal to 7? Shouldn't that be 6? (2 racial, 2 each for each completionist feat?)

Edit: Ah, I see... there are THREE races that give +1 to CHA for racial PLs. (and only ONE that gives +1 to STR)

So even MORE synergy with Paladin PDK with Divine Might and Cormyrean Knight Training...

Ugh, Devs you need to fix that... Make CKT not stack with Divine Might.