Tactics vs Spells DCs: let’s talk about balance

[Gilga1]

Looks like a PDK paladin. So your issue is with PDK paladins, not melee.. Don't say "nerf melee", when you mean "nerf PDK paladins using CHA as main stat".

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly.
I will never use 189 dire charge DC in game because it’s not needed. In game I don’t twist legendary tactics, I use doublestrike as active PL and so on.

As I explained in my pally post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6313780 ) CKT is needed to get good DCs for stunning blow and trip on a CHA based melee toon (ie pally or bard).

Let’s make a comparison between PDK CHA based and a normal STR based melee.
CHA 114 STR 86
(the stats I have on my CHA based pally)
+38+26+17=+81
STR 130 trance stat 78
(the stats I will have on a STR based toon)
+60+17=+77
So yes, considering only the stats CKT is slightly ahead (+4).
Looking at the whole picture (tactical bonuses from racial and class enhancements, fighter feats or cleric war domain etc.) I think the CKT component is balanced.

As I wrote in my OP, the problem I see is the multi target stun/trip. And the tactics DCs (fighter is the best here) compared to spells DCs.

Pally is super good now, I agree. But a lot of melees are. Sadly, not rangers. Idk why the devs choose to destroy the only good thing rangers were good at, removing DoD and making all the THF a little ‘ranger’.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

I agree 100% in regards to tactics DC vs spell DC.

But I'm not sure I agree that CKT and Divine Might could be considered balanced when it allows a someone who doesn't even spec for strength to use a purely str based tactic (stunning blow) in high end reaper.

A strength based fighter should be able to use it. All a str based fighter has is tactics and damage. They have average saves an no self heals apart from scrolls/cocoon. A CHA based pally who doesn't give up anything should not be able to use a STR based ability and it be effective in end game content.

[Artos_Fabril]

I guess we need super-reaper or something then for people who want some content that requires roles and teamwork? A group of 6 people all doing basically the same thing doesn't feel much different than soloing to me.

I solo most of the time, but I definitely think there should be *some place* for classic party based challenges. If that's not endgame high reaper, that what is it?

Raids


But if you go ahead and add super-reaper or whatever, make it what Reaper was supposed to be. Buffs that only function in Reaper content and some cosmetics to show off around town.

[Gilga1]

I agree 100% in regards to tactics DC vs spell DC.

But I'm not sure I agree that CKT and Divine Might could be considered balanced when it allows a someone who doesn't even spec for strength to use a purely str based tactic (stunning blow) in high end reaper.

A strength based fighter should be able to use it. All a str based fighter has is tactics and damage. They have average saves an no self heals apart from scrolls/cocoon. A CHA based pally who doesn't give up anything should not be able to use a STR based ability and it be effective in end game content.

I see your point.
For sure removing CKT will make CHA based pallies and bards more weak, maybe not viable at all, but the vast majority of top tier melees will still rule.
In addition, please consider CKT binds you to suboptimal weapon options (Constellation, Reflection, Angdrelve... that’s all) while STR based toons can access the best options (like +2 multi Tail, or Silvanus Tremor).
And STR based toons have no fail tactics too.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

I see your point.
For sure removing CKT will make CHA based pallies and bards more weak, maybe not viable at all, but the vast majority of top tier melees will still rule.
In addition, please consider CKT binds you to suboptimal weapon options (Constellation, Reflection, Angdrelve... that’s all) while STR based toons can access the best options (like +2 multi Tail, or Silvanus Tremor).
And STR based toons have no fail tactics too.

That is a good point as well. Maybe an alternative approach then is to make the duration of the stun shorter or make it only hit a couple of enemies on high reaper (let's say r7+) but keep full effect at lower reaper?

[Thrudh]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly.
I will never use 189 dire charge DC in game because it’s not needed. In game I don’t twist legendary tactics, I use doublestrike as active PL and so on.

As I explained in my pally post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6313780 ) CKT is needed to get good DCs for stunning blow and trip on a CHA based melee toon (ie pally or bard).

Let’s make a comparison between PDK CHA based and a normal STR based melee.
CHA 114 STR 86
(the stats I have on my CHA based pally)
+38+26+17=+81
STR 130 trance stat 78
(the stats I will have on a STR based toon)
+60+17=+77
So yes, considering only the stats CKT is slightly ahead (+4).
Looking at the whole picture (tactical bonuses from racial and class enhancements, fighter feats or cleric war domain etc.) I think the CKT component is balanced.

As I wrote in my OP, the problem I see is the multi target stun/trip. And the tactics DCs (fighter is the best here) compared to spells DCs.

Pally is super good now, I agree. But a lot of melees are. Sadly, not rangers. Idk why the devs choose to destroy the only good thing rangers were good at, removing DoD and making all the THF a little ‘ranger’.

Those numbers are correct for stun and trip, but not for dire charge.

114 CHA is +52, not 38

So it's 52+26+17 = 95 or nearly 20 points higher than the STR-based guy.

In fact, make it so CTK doesn't stack with with a trance, and you end up with

52+26 = 78 which is just about equal with the STR-based guy at 77.

CTK is broken when stacked with Divine Might on CHA-based PDK paladin.

The devs need to fix it. Thank you for bringing this to their attention.

Paladins have other powers. They don't need to be masters of stun and trip too. Even without CTK stacking with divine might, their Dire Charge is just as good.

[redoubt]

Can someone clarify something for me:

In the recent numbers posts using 114 CHA the numbers 38 and 52 have been thrown out. Reading the wiki I find:

In addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

A CHA of 114 is a modifier of 52. But then you get to add 1/3 of that, so 17.

In Gilga's numbers he uses a STR of 86 which is a modifier of 38.

I see math that looks like:

38 + 26 + 17 =

The 38 is STR mod, the 17 is 1/3 cha mod. What is the one in the middle (just other stun bonuses?)

Then is this the correct math? I see Trudh using 52 as the front number, and I don't know where that comes from.

Thanks!

[Thrudh]

Can someone clarify something for me:

In the recent numbers posts using 114 CHA the numbers 38 and 52 have been thrown out. Reading the wiki I find:

In addition, as long as your Charisma remains higher than your Strength and you are wielding one of the above weapons, you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to 1/3 your Charisma modifier.

A CHA of 114 is a modifier of 52. But then you get to add 1/3 of that, so 17.

In Gilga's numbers he uses a STR of 86 which is a modifier of 38.

I see math that looks like:

38 + 26 + 17 =

The 38 is STR mod, the 17 is 1/3 cha mod. What is the one in the middle (just other stun bonuses?)

Then is this the correct math? I see Trudh using 52 as the front number, and I don't know where that comes from.

Thanks!

Dire Charge uses your highest stat

So if a PDK paladin has a CHA of 114, he uses 52 for the stat bonus, plus 26 for Divine Might (That's half your CHA bonus to tactics), plus 17 for Cormyrean Knight Training (1/3 CHA stat bonus to tactics).

There a couple of problems here that the devs need to fix.

Triple dipping a single stat like this is way unbalanced. They should probably make CTK and Divine Might the same Insight bonus. That way, a PDK fighter could have access to CKT instead of Divine Might, but a paladin or cleric PDK couldn't use both.

Another bug they need to fix is to that Insight DC items stack with Divine Might, and they should not. They should fix that, and make CTK an insight bonus as well.

When he used the STR stat of 86, that was for stun and trip.

Those do not use the highest stat like Dire Charge. They both only use STR as the main stat (but you can still get the tactics bonuses from Divine Might and CTK)

[Gilga1]

I see math that looks like:
38 + 26 + 17 =
The 38 is STR mod, the 17 is 1/3 cha mod. What is the one in the middle (just other stun bonuses?)
Then is this the correct math? I see Trudh using 52 as the front number, and I don't know where that comes from.
Thanks!

Sure!
38 is STR mod (used for stunning blow and trip), 26 (half CHA mod is from Divine Might) 17 (1/3 CHA mod is from CKT).
CKT allows CHA based builds to use STR based tactics.

Discussing Dire Charge DC imho is pointless because every build (STR based, INT, WIS, DEX or CON based get no fail DC on Dire Charge simply using a trance).
Also please note that STR based builds usually have higher stat value.

[mr420247]

Pretty sure a static bf team would rock now

4 bf pallys 1 sorc 1 pm done recons n lohs for the win

[Hawkwier]

Sure!
38 is STR mod (used for stunning blow and trip), 26 (half CHA mod is from Divine Might) 17 (1/3 CHA mod is from CKT).
CKT allows CHA based builds to use STR based tactics.

Discussing Dire Charge DC imho is pointless because every build (STR based, INT, WIS, DEX or CON based get no fail DC on Dire Charge simply using a trance).
Also please note that STR based builds usually have higher stat value.

It's not no fail as it doesn't work on a plethora of mobs.

I even tried working Mass Frog into my barb build to cover more cc bases. LOL! Quite unsuccessfully I may add.

The problem here is not melee tactical DCs. Like Trudh my barb can reach 130 or so after a lot of investment.

To reach that kind of number I'm investing heavily in more than one stat and all the associated gear, and giving up a chunk of DPS to do so.

The issue here seems to be CKT and DM not just stacking to an extreme degree, but stacking off a single stat. Cha. On one particular build paradigm.

You also have a single target cc like stunning blow being made effectively AOE by the recent addition of strike through.

Both of fhese are factors, though addressing one may be sufficient.

Fixing that, if it even needs fixed for the wider player base, is fine. But please don't nerf stuff that doesn't need nerfed into the bargain.

Whilst we're on the subject of DC's, both melee tactics and caster CC, along with Rogue's Assassinate, have access to gear that enhances their abilities and should allow them to keep up with the constant power creep inflation of mobs. Visage of Terror, the Ravager capstone, doesn't have any such gear supplement beyond relying on Con. Like Direcharge it also has severe limitations on which mobs it affects. I'm seeing it land less and less even on later Update mobs that are in theory susceptible even in low R. Can something be done to avoid this capstone ability being left behind please?

[mr420247]

Thrud if tronk or til says so just take it on faith ok these guys no

Best guys you will run with

[Tilomere]

I'm getting my jokes ready in advance of any henshin-style nerf down to level 1 and obscurity for years:

Why did the paladin cross the road?
To see if unemployment was better on the other side.

What's the difference between a paladin and a cleric?
The cleric can Hjeal!

A paladin, druid, and rogue were meeting at a tavern to discuss starting a party for adventuring. The rogue says "I can disarm traps and open locks, I deserve a share of the loot!" The druid says "I can call upon the magic and forces of nature, I deserve a share of the loot too!" The paladin says "**** it all, looks like I'm working for free again."

What's the difference between a paladin and a sorc?
One of them is good, the other is lawful good.

Why should paladins buy "The Lost Gatekeepers" pack?
It's the only paper bag they will be able to fight their way out of!

[Thrudh]

I'm getting my jokes ready in advance of any henshin-style nerf down to level 1 and obscurity for years:

If someone wants to start a thread asking for all melee DCs to be nerfed, and shows, as an example, one ridiculous particular setup (a setup he would never run in game) on one particular class/race/build, then he deserves to be called out.

That's a TERRIBLE way to talk about design goals. Why show the one setup that maxes out tactics DC if it's not a setup you would run in-game?

Let's have a real conversation about real builds that are actually used in-game.

If he wants PDK CHA-based paladins to be nerfed, I agree... Triple dipping into one stat is bad design. Plus they have good DPS, and access to Confront any foe. Plus the best saves in the game, and self-healing.

[mr420247]

No i've been asking for stamina bars and melee balance for years so they also have to regulate there dps tactics n dps like casters forever

And the stupid epic ward to drop or apply to melee ranged tactics too its bs

[mr420247]

If caf cost 100 + stamina pts then it might be on par with garbage ruins

[Tilomere]

If he wants PDK CHA-based paladins to be nerfed, I agree... Triple dipping into one stat is bad design.

You don't see that we have already been down this path with Aasimar falconry monks, or remember where it ends? I'm just skipping ahead and preparing for the end. It was Symbiont's monk last time right?

Ooh, how about this one?

Paladin: Free to play, and you get what you pay for!

On a serious note, what basis do you have to expect any different result this time around?

[mr420247]

They just did that w alchs but alchs suck

[mr420247]

I never want to no the math but til what is my odds of getting a reaper stat wall watch helm w sharn drops odds mate 6 trillion or

[krimsonrane]

Let us have a few weeks of enjoyment before the nerf bat requests come.