Tactics vs Spells DCs: let’s talk about balance

[Capricorpus]

The theory on why casters have (and should have) lower potential dcs than melee tactics is as follows:

1) Casters have options to target a mob's weak save, tactics builds (monks aside) usually cannot do this
2) Tactics feats are single target (new THF aside), short range abilities that are easier to miss, while spells are usually ranged point and click
3) The effect of a successful tactic feat is weaker than spells targeting same save (see stunning blow vs FOD)
4) In addition to point 3, the cooldown on tactics feats are longer than spells targeting the same save (again see 15 second stunning blow vs 6/8 second FOD)

I hear where you're coming from, but...

1) While it's true that casters have more than one save they can target (albeit with limited options depending on the mob type), the vast majority of instakills are fortitude-based. Playing a caster with maxed out spell DCs tends to preclude anything approximating good DPS, so even if we assume (correctly) that a divine can command some things that he can't implode, he's then left with no ability to actually kill the guy he's just commanded.

Targeting weak saves might've made sense when the primary role of a caster was cc and casters had multiple options for that, but it does not make sense in a meta where melees can bring their own cc (with better DCs than casters) and also dps.

2) Yes, the new THF system has had a massive impact on the current meta. It made an already extant problem far worse.

3) Somewhat true, but not an accurate comparison for two reasons
- On a DC caster, DCs are typically your only way to kill something. As such, it's crucial that your DCs are reliable
- Stunning blow is more analogous to soundburst than it is to FoD. A pure DC specced character is using FoD instead of hitting things with a weapon, not instead of using stunning blow.

4) Once again, you're comparing CC to what amounts to a DC casters' ability to kill trash. In the amount of time that it takes FoD to become available, a decent melee could've used some combination of tactics and helpless damage to rip through an entire pack of mobs.

Of course, this was the theory... in practice dire charge exists, and good AOE builds (caster and melee versions) can now nuke R10 mobs in seconds making the above theory moot.

I'm not sure whose theory you're referencing, but I don't think discussing whether or not the tactics/spell DC balance used to make sense is a good way to spend our time. It currently does not, and it would be great if some sort of adjustments could be made.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

I can see from this thread that Trance's are the problem. They just scale far too high with too little effort. Divine Might, KTA and DI should probably be a fixed value increase based on the points spent (1, 2 or 3) and be set at either the same or slightly worse than current maximum gear values (for specific tactics like Stunning) i.e. i'm thinking 1 point = 3, 2 points = 6 and 3 points = 9. This would make them very powerful during heroics and early epic but basically just save two gear slots in legendary (insightful deadly and tactics) and give a slightly worse DC (9 vs 11).

The other possible solution might be to just put a cap on trances i.e. +10. Then they would have the correct power level in heroics and never get too strong in legendary+ content.

The problem is only going to get worse as gear scales higher.

I will provide a first life example.
Dwarf fighter vanguard.
Dwarf: +3
Vanguard: +3
Feats: +20
Items: u46 trinket and belt (both super easy to acquire and overall solid choices for a vanguard setup) +23+11+5
Str: +30 (assuming no tomes, no guild buffs etc)
Int (Kta): +10
Legendary tactics: +6
Stunning shield: 151 DC
Dire charge: 131 DC
He can step in r10 and make things helpless.

I can see you have been playing pally too much Tronko Small correction. KTA doesn't stack with +11 from Trinket so that would be 121 DC DireCharge and 141 Stunning shield (edit: looks like my statement might be wrong here. KTA might actually stack with insightful - if it does then that surely is a bug). Still very impressive for first life but 121DC is not going to that effective on some r10 runs (sharn and newer). The stunning shield would be though. I find you need around 135 to be really useful in r10 (in most quests). I guess as long as you have a pally with 140+ Direcharge leading the way you would fine as a backup direcharge.

I think that is the problem as well. These days you have 3-4 melee in a group all with Direcharge at 130+ which means even if one mob saves or gets a miss, they certainly won't miss the next all hitting 1-2 seconds later

[SirValentine]

(It's really 12 points from PLs.)

OK. I was following up on the other person who said it was 9. So it's 12? That's fine, too. 9 or 12 still isn't 85 or 90.

9 points from PLs is easy to get...

No, it is not. In fact, for a first-life character, it is literally impossible. Only non-first-life characters can have any benefit of any sort from past lives. Do I really need to explain that to you?

[mamant91]

Small correction. KTA doesn't stack with +11 from Trinket

It still does, just checked. Been that way since Trances "correction". Trinked is bugged, by the way, gives you +24 stunning instead of +23, probably only description was corrected since Lama 1, not the effect (either that, or Ins Stunning +11 gives you 12 instead, but i cannot check that - there's no other +11 Ins Stunning items that i know of).

[mikarddo]

A most enlightening post, thank you for sharing.

It is obviously not good if someone can zerg R10 in a large variety of max level quests - that means something is wrong.
It is even worse if the best group composition for doing so is 6 of the same kind, no matter what kind that is.

[J-mann]

It still does, just checked. Been that way since Trances "correction". Trinked is bugged, by the way, gives you +24 stunning instead of +23, probably only description was corrected since Lama 1, not the effect (either that, or Ins Stunning +11 gives you 12 instead, but i cannot check that - there's no other +11 Ins Stunning items that i know of).

That is not wai, and it might be a display error for all we know. KTA should not stack with any insightful itemization as of U45 if I remember right.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

It still does, just checked. Been that way since Trances "correction". Trinked is bugged, by the way, gives you +24 stunning instead of +23, probably only description was corrected since Lama 1, not the effect (either that, or Ins Stunning +11 gives you 12 instead, but i cannot check that - there's no other +11 Ins Stunning items that i know of).

edit: tested a second time and you are correct. In the console it says "(Effects): --- Insight modifier to Stunning DC: +12". My first test was mixed up because I had an exceptional strength bonus in the item I was switching it with which hid the difference.

Did a test with KtA and you are correct it does stack. This is clearly a bug and needs to be fixed urgently. No wonder Paladins are getting obscene Dire Charge values. I assume Divine might and DI are equally impacted.

[mamant91]

(Effects): --- Insight modifier to Stunning DC: +12

I totally forgot about combat logs.

And we went off-topic, i think.

Did a test with KtA and you are correct it does stack. This is clearly a bug and needs to be fixed urgently. No wonder Paladins are getting obscene Dire Charge values.

I doubt that 11 DC is making the difference now.

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

I doubt that 11 DC is making the difference now.

Agree but it is contributing to the problem. They should also cap trances at 10 or a similar value. CHA paladins and WIS monks/druids etc are just getting far too high values as evidenced in this thread.

[Bunker]

DC casters get what, like +9 spell focus, +4 insightful sf, and I don't know, maybe +2 quality sf?

So bring it inline with combat DCs. Give 23/11/5 respectively. That will add another +24 to caster DC.

Great. Now melee combat and DC casting need a nerf together.

[Gilga1]

This is false. Break it down.
Do you mean a PDK paladin only when you say melee? If that's what you mean, then state it. And show numbers.

Missing fighter feats, feats (tactician, scion), enhancements...
Like I wrote, I will never run a similar DC in game because it's useless.
I don't want to use this thread to discuss my build: I posted it in the Paladin section few weeks ago including equip etc.
Most good players I know keep telling me: "why you waste your time posting on ddoforum?"
I'm full aware that most players don't care about reaper, or pushing skulls. But I also know a lot of players who want to improve. And I see a lot of misleading informations in this forum. A lot.
Melees are in a good spot, and they always had the best dps except during the inquis era.
But when I read divine crusader is a solid destiny for a pally in endgame reaper... well, I can understand why some players think that melees are bad.

Here I posted a breakdown of a first life vanguard fighter reaching 150+ stun with minimal effort (a couple of non-raid items)... result?
"a first lifer will never pay 495tp to gain access to harper!"
"sacrificed everything to be good at exactly one, and only one, thing"
Do you know guys that vanguard is really good nowadays?
How many DC can get on his spells a first life caster?

Talking about effort, a melee needs a couple of item slots (ins stunning - yes it stacks with trances and always did - is not needed at all) to reach no-fail DCs.
A caster needs item, insightul, quality, profane, augments, artifact, filigrees sets etc, only considering equip. And he can't get no-fail DCs.
A maxed tactical vanguard can have 100 DC more than a maxed caster. 100, not 10.
A first life vanguard can have more DC than a maxed caster featuring the best equip, 156 rp and all PLs.

I'm playing a melee, not a caster, and I'm asking for a balance nerf. Maybe an option could be making stunning blow and trip single target again.

About zerging on R10, I never asked for reaper trees... I asked for cosmetics, and I complained about items power creep.
I had a ton of fun running R10 Slavers with 0 reaper points and a balanced party. I had fun running R10 Slavers melee duo last year. Now I'm having fun doing speedruns.
Downgrading melees CC will make the game better imho.

[Tilomere]

This build was just to determine the level of nerfs necessary for OP. It has served it's purpose, and can now be put away. I'll just leave the tactical #s part for reference.

Dire Charge 169 DC
30 Base + 50 Cha + 16 CKT + 25 DM + 3 PL +1 G + 6 LT + 23 E + 7 I + 4 Q + 4 R (6 PL Stance (costs DS) used for FotW)

Stunning Blow 140 DC
10 base + 41 STR + 16 CKT + 25 DM + 3 PL +1 G + 6 LT + 23 E + 7 I + 4 Q + 4 R (6 PL Stance (costs DS) used for FotW)

Trip/Sunder 137
10 base + 41 STR + 16 CKT + 25 DM + 3 PL +1 G + 6 LT + 20 E + 7 I + 4 Q + 4 R (6 PL Stance (costs DS) used for FotW)

Holy Ret 166 (don't bother with shatter in KotC)
30 base + 50 Cha + 16 CKT + 25 DM + 3 PL +1 G + 6 LT+ 20 E + 7 I + 4 Q + 4 R (6 PL Stance (costs DS) used for FotW)

[SirValentine]

Just for record, here is an all-purpose paladin in its home ED showing how it all breaks down.

Thanks for doing a detailed breakdown. However, some people are trying to claim it's all due to PLs and rare gear and having everything maxed out. Would you mind doing a version for a first-lifer with no raid gear, and, say, 20 (or less) Reaper points? I appreciate that you already only show a 5-slot Sentient weapon, not an 8-slot. (Although you seem to have erroneously listed the same filigrees in both weapon and artifact, which the devs have stated isn't supposed to work.)

[Tilomere]

Thanks for doing a detailed breakdown. However, some people are trying to claim it's all due to PLs and rare gear and having everything maxed out. Would you mind doing a version for a first-lifer with no raid gear, and, say, 20 (or less) Reaper points? I appreciate that you already only show a 5-slot Sentient weapon, not an 8-slot. (Although you seem to have erroneously listed the same filigrees in both weapon and artifact, which the devs have stated isn't supposed to work.)

No, that's an 8 slot, fervor is 4 of weapon slots. That build shows how things work on live. First life just means you don't make a dual-stat DC build like a paladin DCing off both Cha + Str. First life you would only DC off of max strength, and also have a trance. You would make a fighter, horc, max str, with some trance. You would still get all the DCs to work especially with power surge, you just wouldn't also have the flashy Holy Ret.

[LurkingVeteran]

The initial values the devs had for strikethrough were probably about right, but they want to "listen to the players," and they players always scream "buff buff buff!" So they gave in and we ended up with something kind of OP.

The biggest problem with the initial ST values was that they were rly low for most builds in heroics, while they removed glancing blows and initially gimped cleaves. This nuked heroic AoE damage. They have fixed the cleaves now (except monk WWA - which is worse), so it's debatable if the original numbers were closer to optimal or not. A big problem w/ those numbers though was also that some classes could access large ST boosts early, while e.g. Kensei couldn't. The ST increases made these differences smaller. If they were to go the way of reducing ST, they need to shave some off the class enhancements also. I'm not sure this is the best way though.

[Jerevth]

The game isn't balanced for the people who min-max.
The game is balanced for the general population to enjoy.
THF Melee is finally viable.

My Main has a decent stock of gear with mythic bonuses- I can get him up to 60+ melee power with enhancements (A boost) and epic sphere selections at level 20-21 (last life before I TR'd- I needed tokens.) I was still left having to hit the same monsters multiple times on R1 before they died. I still died a lot in R2.
Sure, I don't know all the ins and outs for crafting an end-all-be-all melee monster; I'm enjoying tweaking the builds using certain trees and classes to see what works.

Melee (THF) is finally decent for the average player. A little CC, still no low level insta-kill, and some reasonable damage averages.

Yet...
The initial post sounds like little more than high-brow trolling, based on years of knowledge of the game and its mechanics, tweaked characteristics and all the past life potential, supreme +8 tomes, etc, and then a tongue in cheek comment about it being a "nerf request".

People complain about the game dying because there are no new players, about how it's so hard to find a group for X quest. Then someone pops up with a post about how over-powered the "newest update to a broken system" is, as if they are the voice of reason.
~ Every type of character has a secret power build based on a specific class, race, enhancement tree and gear-set. Surprise. ~

Many here (in the forum) are far above the average player. A decade of play, innate knowledge of the best combinations, all the +4 mythic gearsets... If the game isn't hard enough for you because you're an old hand, go do something else and stop trying to tailor it to your min-maxed idealizations and false-humility-bragging. It gets so frustrating to have a fun build, finally, and some huckster pipes up with a maximized power build that they think is game-breaking. THF has been a mess for years. It was finally updated, and the Devs kept in mind the lessons learned from the Inquisitor "ranged breaking" that ended up impacting any ranged character as a result (IPS nerf.) THF has a better balance and it's centered more toward the middle than too far to the right.

[Kebtid]

The point if i am correct from this thread is not showcasing numbers, comparing a maxed out vs a non maxed character, name calling pointing, bragging, its very simple what the point is, it is that the current state makes builds specialized for casting not being able to do so, while fully dedicating all gear slots for that purpose with maximum effort, while a play style that used tacticals as supplementary now has access to vastly higher dcs while not sacrificing anything while still doing its primary job aka dps.

Please keep it to this, and provide feedback on what we can change and hopefully our devs will look into the adjustment.

I for example love how strong tacticals are right now, even if insigh did not stack i would have dcs vastly superior to any caster while still being a pure dps.
So why not give the same treatment to dc casters?
At least make them land their spells, since even if we do nerf melees, dcs would still be higher then a casters.
First idea from discussion, remove the extr vs spell saves reaper has, anyone else have a similiar idea?

I mean even if we made dc casters work in sharn and soul splitter i would still rock a melee, thats how strong i consider 3x stat and hitting 3 targets.

[Jerevth]

The point if i am correct from this thread is not showcasing numbers, comparing a maxed out vs a non maxed character, name calling pointing, bragging, its very simple what the point is, it is that the current state makes builds specialized for casting not being able to do so, while fully dedicating all gear slots for that purpose with maximum effort, while a play style that used tacticals as supplementary now has access to vastly higher dcs while not sacrificing anything while still doing its primary job aka dps.

Please keep it to this, and provide feedback on what we can change and hopefully our devs will look into the adjustment.

I for example love how strong tacticals are right now, even if insigh did not stack i would have dcs vastly superior to any caster while still being a pure dps.
So why not give the same treatment to dc casters?
At least make them land their spells, since even if we do nerf melees, dcs would still be higher then a casters.
First idea from discussion, remove the extr vs spell saves reaper has, anyone else have a similiar idea?

I mean even if we made dc casters work in sharn and soul splitter i would still rock a melee, thats how strong i consider 3x stat and hitting 3 targets.

While true, DC casters have spells that provide CC with saves against different save aspects- Reflex, Fort, will. Enduring CC spells like web require saves each time the AOE is entered, conserving sp nicely. If one DC spell won't work in a given situation, there are one or two others that will, because mobs don't have a flat save- they may have a higher reflex, a higher will or a higher fort but not all three. DC casters also have a higher cap of affected targets for AOE than a melee with strike through. The PITA comes from the requirement to specialize in a school to gain a few dribs and drabs of a DC bonus. Those would be the primary place to elevate DC bonuses for casters.

A melee's trip attack applies only to Strength or Dex saves (selecting the higher of the two) and is applied only once, and followed by a longer cool-down than most CC spells.

The argument is comparing two mechanics that evolved differently from one another.

I would find a discussion to review the DCs of casters with an eye for raising them, but I do not see any justification to lower the DC of a melee attack such as trip which is an instant success or fail, has a longer cool down, and has very few alternatives should a particular one not be viable.

Casters and melee are not the same, the mechanics are different, the rules are different and the constraints are different. The success of one over the other is not the metric by which to measure the other. The metric should be a standard separate from both, otherwise we would have a vanilla game that's boring and soon abandoned. I think it's like a pool source allotted into different capabilities; Armor, DC, spells, feats available, etc.

[Kebtid]

While true, DC casters have spells that provide CC with saves against different save aspects- Reflex, Fort, will. Enduring CC spells like web require saves each time the AOE is entered, conserving sp nicely. If one DC spell won't work in a given situation, there are one or two others that will, because mobs don't have a flat save- they may have a higher reflex, a higher will or a higher fort but not all three. DC casters also have a higher cap of affected targets for AOE than a melee with strike through. The PITA comes from the requirement to specialize in a school to gain a few dribs and drabs of a DC bonus. Those would be the primary place to elevate DC bonuses for casters.

A melee's trip attack applies only to Strength or Dex saves (selecting the higher of the two) and is applied only once, and followed by a longer cool-down than most CC spells.

The argument is comparing two mechanics that evolved differently from one another.

I would find a discussion to review the DCs of casters with an eye for raising them, but I do not see any justification to lower the DC of a melee attack such as trip which is an instant success or fail, has a longer cool down, and has very few alternatives should a particular one not be viable.

Casters and melee are not the same, the mechanics are different, the rules are different and the constraints are different. The success of one over the other is not the metric by which to measure the other. The metric should be a standard separate from both, otherwise we would have a vanilla game that's boring and soon abandoned.

I would argue this point for r1 and elite gameplay, but in r10 caster specific cc is a mana drain.
Web dissapears faster then you can recast it /i hope people get what i mean with this, disco is useful for initial cc but duration of the dance and the sphere is almost non existent, sburst needs to be spammed for it to be of effective use in r10, command being the prolly best spell due to its initial long duration, equake is terrible and not worth casting at all, hold monster is most populat but it still has its issues due to mix of champs of whom many have issues.

Control spells in general from casting side are reduced in duration for most classes /alchemist having the upper hand now due to the cut of cc still being useful, but the class still being terrible at boss dps and reaper cc.

Here is the thing, a mob a champ has some kind of ward, most wards negate most school spells, so as a caster you have 3 layers, first is dc check layer, 2nd is spell resistance layer and third is the random immunity layer that comes with champs.

As a melee, i see a pack i rush into it with dire, i do not really care if some mob rolls a 20 since a 2nd dire from another player will follow up, and a third from another player, while we move trough packs on zerg speed.
There is no jumping around involved, wasd pro skills. I see a target i go kill it, i have the dps to take it down before it can do any big harm to me due to multiple layers of cc and defenses i have.

Mobs weak saves do not matter, when my dcs are so high that even if i hit its highest save, i still succeed.
As a caster cc oriented, if you fail its save, and it has a champ state that makes it immune to its weak spell what can you do?

Take example a hero champ, im a necro player, i have skyhigh necro dc and play in magister, my focus is to instakill mobs and cry when we get to a boss or rednamed.
Mob a champ has dward, what can i do?
I can hold it, for dps aka melee to beat down on it.
But why would i play a pm wiz if i can play a melee who can cc the mob himself and kill it faster and more efficient then a wiz can.

Go to r10 and cast your control spells, go to r10 and use your tacticals and compare the duration of those 2.

Duration / numbers / and what else the class has to bring with that.

I know in all times in ddo it was much harder to play a melee in top end content and that most people do not have the knowledge to succeed in doing so, so take it for granted from people that play for a decade when they want to express a concern, the concern right now is that the specialization that casters specialized to casting have is out of place.

Not only do casters have access to lower numbers they also have to care about spellresist and extra saves reaper mobs have vs their spells.

[Jerevth]

WRT the layers of spell defense: true and agreed.
But how to lift the DC caster up to where the ought to be, while still taking into account R10 is a different playing field (metaphorically) than R1-4.

-I haven't tested this myself, but can't wards on champs be dispelled?
-Would a meta feat that bypasses resist, or at least significantly increases piercing the resist, be viable as a class feat (not a selected feat from among a limited available number of slots.)
-I do think the duration minimum needs to be at least the same as the cool-down period plus x seconds. There ought to be a minimum floor that makes sense, but Reaper was originally meant to shake things up for group mechanics

-The spam train of Dire Charge melees in the party isn't a valid argument for or against; It's a group tactic currently available and I don't think it is reasonable as evidence to either end.