Tactics vs Spells DCs: let’s talk about balance

[SpartanKiller13]

So he claimed a 185 DC. OK, so if a triple-triple-quadruple-everything-Completionist-with-all-Reaper-trees-maxed-and-every-piece-of-raid-gear person hits 185, what's achievable on a 1st-lifer with farm-able gear? 140? I don't know, you tell me. If 185 is overkill in 10 skull, is 140 (or whatever the number is) useless in 4 skulls? Is it just his PL-inflated numbers, or is he using techniques that the bulk of melees could be using effectively, but aren't?

With Sharn you can hit 80ish main stat fairly reasonably on a first life toon; compared to 120+ on his (probably) PDK toon, that's a 36 DC loss immediately (20 + 10 DM + 6 CKT), assuming the first life toon is also PDK. PL's give 9 DC's, and Reaper Points give another 4 DC's. That's already ~50 DC drop XD

Full gear 1st-life PDK w/DM I'd expect could hit 110-120 or so, ballparking.

PDK+Trance is something some melee builds can use, but there's a lot of builds that can't for various reasons. Also you're stuck with a Cha-max melee :P

[Tsutti]

Wait, you claimed 100, yet you've already hit 102 without including a Stunning item?

You might want to check what he was saying this about... he was specifically talking about the OP, assuming that the op had a 120 stat that works for Divine Might or something similar, thus giving a ridiculous +82 dc, which he then added to the base Dire Charge dc of 20 for a total of 102 just from your stat. A first lifer could potentially obtain a highest stat of 80 without sacrificing a bunch of stuff that a melee needs in order for this ludicrous dc to even be useful, so assuming they have Deadly Instinct or Divine Might then I think they might be able to hit 110-120, which is high enough already for most content.

When he claimed 100 for a first lifer, I assume he meant either without any Divine Might type ability or meant for the average player, who isn't the most uber builder of all time. He already hit 102 in an attempt to replicate this most extreme possible case provided by the OP.

[SirValentine]

With Sharn you can hit 80ish main stat fairly reasonably on a first life toon; compared to 120+ on his (probably) PDK toon, that's a 36 DC loss immediately (20 + 10 DM + 6 CKT), assuming the first life toon is also PDK.

Past lives do not give 40+ points to a stat. They just don't. That's pure BS.

PL's give 9 DC's, and Reaper Points give another 4 DC's.

OK, 9 points from PLs. And a maxed out Reaper tree would give you +4 DC right? But it's not hard to get 11 points, for +3 DC, so that's only 1 DC different. 9+1=10 total.

[ForumPaladin]

I really don't care about what his build can or can't do. His statement stands. He's looking for more of a challenge and the game can't provide it. That's the state of the top .1% of players.

The only thing I don't like is that the OP generally seems to state he wants the game to change for him, rather than he change for the game. Play an alt. I'm sure he doesn't have a stable of toons that all fit the description of his one uber toon. That used to be a thing.

[Gilga1]

I will provide a first life example.
Dwarf fighter vanguard.
Dwarf: +3
Vanguard: +3
Feats: +20
Items: u46 trinket and belt (both super easy to acquire and overall solid choices for a vanguard setup) +23+11+5
Str: +30 (assuming no tomes, no guild buffs etc)
Int (Kta): +10
Legendary tactics: +6
Stunning shield: 151 DC
Dire charge: 131 DC
He can step in r10 and make things helpless.

How about a first life caster with 70 cha/wis/int?

[mr420247]

Def ain't wrong i don't use my alts much these days

Just trd to a pm it ain't bad either 135 wail n self healing on r10 thats with every thing though

[palladin9479]

I will provide a first life example.
Dwarf fighter vanguard.
Dwarf: +3
Vanguard: +3
Feats: +20
Items: u46 trinket and belt (both super easy to acquire and overall solid choices for a vanguard setup) +23+11+5
Str: +30 (assuming no tomes, no guild buffs etc)
Int (Kta): +10
Legendary tactics: +6
Stunning shield: 151 DC
Dire charge: 131 DC
He can step in r10 and make things helpless.

How about a first life caster with 70 cha/wis/int?

Good so "all melee's are OP" just became "Specialized Dwarf Kensei fighter only".

Sacrificed everything to be good at exactly one, and only one, thing.

Also first life player, no harper tree yet. That's 121 DC on Dire for a fighter who took the fighter only feats. For everyone else, about 100 DC which is what I said they would have.

And should this first life toon attempt to do this build in R10, they would promptly be splattered by the multi-thousand damage attacks that would occur.

[Monkey_Archer]

You aren't wrong OP, but focusing on achievable DCs is kind of missing the issue in regards to balance.

The DC system in DDO is broken and has been for a long time. When typical endgame DCs range from 90s (undergeared builds) to 100s (generalist/hybrids) to 120+ (specialist magisters) to 150+ (top tactics builds) then it is literally not possible to balance this on D20 system. Even a D100 system would have issues at this point...

As long as the DC system is broken and offers no real gradient to success, the strongest abilities make everything else obsolete.

Also, Reaper is not really a difficulty setting, it is a barrier to entry. Once you hit a certain dps/cc/survivability threshold it is no longer a challenge. Doesn't matter if its a party of THFs chaining direcharge or a party of sorcs spamming meteor swarm. Success in R10 is about playing AOE builds.

[SpartanKiller13]

Past lives do not give 40+ points to a stat. They just don't. That's pure BS.

OK, 9 points from PLs. And a maxed out Reaper tree would give you +4 DC right? But it's not hard to get 11 points, for +3 DC, so that's only 1 DC different. 9+1=10 total.

Nah, but better gear tetris (plus obscure/raid gear), build, filigree, PL's, completionist, tomes, reaper hat, twists, racial AP, consumables, etc etc all factor and it's pretty easy to roll that into "first life" vs "max toon" - also since you have so many PL's/Reaper Points/etc shoring up your weak points you can afford to give up more "core" things in favor of higher DC's/better DPS etc. My first life alt has ~66 main-stat, and that's including a +7 tome and full Ravenloft gear. Not built for a max stat, but that's where I base my assumptions. My main went from 118 main stat to 88 just by ETRing from a DC caster into a melee (still Int-based Wizard 20); I couldn't afford the same sacrifices I'd made while still having a viable toon for my stated goals (mid-Reaper solo, high-Reaper contribution).

Are you seriously saying that as a first life melee you'd put your Reaper Points anywhere other than Barricade? You can make an argument for grabbing the DS boost, but IMO you should definitely have 21 points into Barricade before you're grabbing T3 Adversary.

[SpartanKiller13]

You aren't wrong OP, but focusing on achievable DCs is kind of missing the issue in regards to balance.

The DC system in DDO is broken and has been for a long time. When typical endgame DCs range from 90s (undergeared builds) to 100s (generalist/hybrids) to 120+ (specialist magisters) to 150+ (top tactics builds) then it is literally not possible to balance this on D20 system. Even a D100 system would have issues at this point...

I'd be quite interested to see DC's changed to a d% setup similar to Attack bonuses; so increasing your DC would still be strong, but weaker toons could land DC's and stronger toons aren't no-fail. Would be a huge balance pass though lol.

[palladin9479]

I'd be quite interested to see DC's changed to a d% setup similar to Attack bonuses; so increasing your DC would still be strong, but weaker toons could land DC's and stronger toons aren't no-fail. Would be a huge balance pass though lol.

I've thought about this before, would be an interesting idea but we gotta be careful not to mega nerf everyone through the insane resistance scaling already in place. Needing over 20 of something to make a 5% difference is pretty dumb, but having that same 20 be a 100% difference is equally dumb. There needs to be a middle ground somewhere.

[Gilga1]

Good so "all melee's are OP" just became "Specialized Dwarf Kensei fighter only"...

My post is not about "all melee's are OP". Most melees are **** (like most casters and ranged).
But if you compare same level melees and casters (so players with maxed toons with players with maxed toons and first lifers with first lifers) imho melees should not have easy access to higher DCs + the best dps.
In addition, a single target stun is very different from a 3-targets stun. U45 changed the way THF melees are played. Multi-target tactics are way more effective than single target tactics.
A caster needs a lot of effort to reach good DCs for Sharn. A melee needs almost no effort (just a stun item and a trance).
And while casters can't provide top tier dps, melees can. That's my point.

[devashta]

Although I'm a big fan of melees and I really enjoyed the THF changes, I find that some things have excessively reduced the effectiveness of casters.
And that’s bad for the game imho.

Let’s discuss CC. U45 gave tactics a huge boost: strikethrough bringed into play multi-target stun and trip, and tactics DCs can be incredibly higher than spells DCs (let’s assume 130-140 on a good toon).

I’m playing a pally, so a tier 1 melee dps but not at all a tactic oriented class, and I can push my Dire Charge DC to 185+ (please note that a similar DC is useless). I can solo R10 Grim with ease just rotating dire charge, stunning blow and trip (and counting on an amazing burst dps ofc).
As far I know, before U45 only Vinci was able to solo R10 Grim on a melee, using a SWF bard and making good use of the excellent cc potential bards have. Now I think it’s an easy goal for pallies, bears, maybe THF barbs and fighters too.

If you add awesome cc to a top tier dps, maybe we have a balance problem.
Trust me, a group of well built and well played melees now can destroy almost every quest on R10 endgame at full zerg speed. Even in Sharn, one of the few contents where casters DCs still struggle.

It seems to me that casters are losing appeal. Will you include a FVS in a party? FVS means 0 dps, cc is not needed anymore and their spell DCs suck compared to tactics DCs melees have. FVS can take down not warded targets like archers or casters… but non warded mobs are almost one-shotted nowadays. So heals remaining, and buffs/debuffs (rebuke is too slow for quests, reds usually die in seconds)…. Will you include a FVS just for heals? For raids, sure.

And ranged? I don’t care about ranged! XD
I always hated ranged, they scatter mobs around and only few players are able to do their job without pointless kiting and without increasing completion time.

So that’s a “nerf me!”-like post. Melees should have the best dps, they face the risk! But giving them multiple options of no-fail area cc was too much imho.

/not signed

This is an absolute garbage nonsensical post. I am returning player, and pleasantly surprised that melees are atleast viable that people accept them in their groups of sorcs and wizards. I do not want any changes or nerfs to melees, rather a boost to melee power and re-working of FOTW destiny abilities to challenge LD destiny, to support the upcoming iconic barb feywild theme.

[Tsutti]

re-working of FOTW

I'll give you a pass bc you're returning but they literally just did that, as well as nerfing LD substantially.

Guess that speaks to how powerful LD was to begin with.

[Thrudh]

I’m playing a pally, so a tier 1 melee dps but not at all a tactic oriented class, and I can push my Dire Charge DC to 185+

Break down please.

Please explain how you get 185+ DC

[Thrudh]

OK, 9 points from PLs. And a maxed out Reaper tree would give you +4 DC right? But it's not hard to get 11 points, for +3 DC, so that's only 1 DC different. 9+1=10 total.

9 points from PLs is easy to get... (It's really 12 points from PLs.)

3 for fighter
6 for Ancient Tactics (Epic PLs are trivial)


There's also:

• 1 for heroic completionist
• 1 for racial completionist
• 1 for racial +2 to a stat

1 of those 3 is easy... the other two are hard, I agree.

And like you said, in reaper 3 of the 4 are easy to get.

A maxed out character should only have +16 to tactics, compared to +13 for a guy with 8 PLs and 11 reaper points

[Thrudh]

A caster needs a lot of effort to reach good DCs for Sharn. A melee needs almost no effort (just a stun item and a trance).

This is false. Break it down.

Do you mean a PDK paladin only when you say melee? If that's what you mean, then state it. And show numbers.

[Capricorpus]

A lot of the people in this thread seem to be getting sidetracked and ignoring the overarching point(s).

I just spent some time testing in R10 Finding Dorris, and learned the following:

Out of 400 casts of soundburst, mobs successfully saved vs a fortitude DC of 126 65% of the time* and failed to save 35% of the time*

Based on those numbers, in order for your fortitude-save spell to succeed
- 50% of the time you would need a DC of 129
- 75% of the time you would need a DC of 134
- 95% of the time you would need a DC of 138

Since for the vast majority of the casts, the mob targeted was not at 100% hp (which increases their saves vs spells by 6 compared to 4 at 75% hp, for a difference of 2), if your target has full health your DCs would need to be 2 higher to reach the above percentages.


As a wisdom-based divine, it's mathematically impossible for your standing DCs to be in the high 130s, and even getting to around 130 requires a character with racials, tomes, and reaper points (assuming that you want multiple usable schools. Which you do.)

Contrast that with tactics DCs, which can be gotten higher than the maximum DC a wisdom-based divine can possibly have even if the character using tactics is a first lifer.

Food for thought.


______________________________________________

**This is obviously just one example which utilizes a single save type in a single quest. Ravenloft and Ravenloft-era content tends to require lower DCs, whereas certain parts of Sharn and post-Sharn content requires higher DCs. The takeaway here is simply that the current achievable spell DCs are inadequate for certain content even on a fully DC specced character that can't deal any appreciable dps, while even middling tactics DCs on suboptimal characters are sufficient. Those characters can also deal dps and enjoy the ability to kill things even when their DCs don't work.


***The issue is actually a lot more complex when you start thinking about nuke-specced sorcs requiring DCs to deal dps and various mobs being immune to various spells (which is also the case with tactics albeit to a lesser extent, but once again having tactics does not require creating a tactics-focused character that can do practically nothing in situations where tactics don't work)


__________________________________________________ _________

*144/400 and 256/400, or 36% and 64% respectively. 35% and 65% rounded to the nearest 5% due to DDO DCs working in 5% increments

I chose to use a soundburst DC of 126 because I (correctly) assumed that it would be somewhere in the middle of the save/not save range, which allowed me to gain accurate data.

[Kebtid]

Since people are throwing alot of claims here without backing up their data i will jump in as well.
Here is my char, which is a odd build that is mostly a wisdom based melee that utilizes the current out of control melee meta.
It is a 8 druid 6 monk 6 fighter that is a wisdom based build that has ingame out of control dc-s.
even if we remove my past lifes the dcs would still be in a territory that is not reachable by any dc caster.
keep in mind every single monk finish i use and attack has the same dc and works on basically almost anything.
I lack dcs as well, as i do not have a maxed out swap in wisdom sentient (why bother when my dcs are in 95% range), i do not have a alchemical wisdom item (why bother), i dont play in a wisdom destiny like gmaster of flowers, nor do i twist wisdom at all (all twists are dps focused), i just have wisdom high enough from past lifes items and that is all the effort i did.

A specialized Tacticals build can reach much higher dcs and the concern is that spellcasting which is a hit or miss cannot do the same.
i can cc while keeping top of the line dps.
Keep in mind, capricorpus has all wisdom gear in the game and he cannot land his spells as reliable as i can my tacticals with same amount of effort he puts in.
If i do not land my dcs it is not the end of the world.
If he does not or a sorc guildie, they become a dead burden and a wasted party slot, which is directly affecting their personal fun. That is a bad thing for the health of the game.






The issue guys exists, do not turn a blind eye to it or make claims that are not backed up by playtesting.
Gilga, Cap and myself actually test it and want to bring this point up for it to be looked into to have a even ground for all playstyles.

My dcs fully maxed on monk finishers would be in mid 150s and dire charge would have 173 while running in a non wisdom focused destiny.
(meaning i would still be a top dps while having those dcs i am not forced into running grandmaster while dc casters are forced running magister for high end content)

The issue we have is, tactical dc items and trance raising in power much faster then spellcasting dc items.

[Monkey_Archer]

As a wisdom-based divine, it's mathematically impossible for your standing DCs to be in the high 130s, and even getting to around 130 requires a character with racials, tomes, and reaper points (assuming that you want multiple usable schools. Which you do.)

Contrast that with tactics DCs, which can be gotten higher than the maximum DC a wisdom-based divine can possibly have even if the character using tactics is a first lifer.

Food for thought.

The theory on why casters have (and should have) lower potential dcs than melee tactics is as follows:

1) Casters have options to target a mob's weak save, tactics builds (monks aside) usually cannot do this
2) Tactics feats are single target (new THF aside), short range abilities that are easier to miss, while spells are usually ranged point and click
3) The effect of a successful tactic feat is weaker than spells targeting same save (see stunning blow vs FOD)
4) In addition to point 3, the cooldown on tactics feats are longer than spells targeting the same save (again see 15 second stunning blow vs 6/8 second FOD)

Of course, this was the theory... in practice dire charge exists, and good AOE builds (caster and melee versions) can now nuke R10 mobs in seconds making the above theory moot.