Worthless Shields

[diasho2]

For a long time in the game the only shields that were used were large/tower back when sword & board intimi tanks were needed. Then ac died and the need for the classic tank vanished from the game. Recently changes have been made to the game that have made some shields viable again. Large and tower shields add to prr/mrr of many builds now and with enhancements add great advantages to pally and vanguard fighters builds. At the same time bucklers that were worthless now give swash builds massive advantage.

Then you look at small shields. Just what are they good for? Several named small shields have been made however, do they get used? Anyone looking for prr/mrr will use heavy/large or a tower shield. The only class that uses smaller shields is swash and they use bucklers exclusively.

I have been wondering recently why they are in the game or if there was a way to make them at least somewhat useful.

Currently only swash swf can use a shield and get the swf bonus if this bonus was extended to small shields it would help and other . I would not advocate getting the full swash bonus for using a small shield, but a portion of it or possibly just swf without swash.

Another possibility would be adding enhancements to lines that depend on evasion/saves for defense the ability to use swf not swash, this could be easily added to any line.

If something is not added to make the small shield useful even for a nich build what is the point of the thing?

[Alkusoittow]

For a long time in the game the only shields that were used were large/tower back when sword & board intimi tanks were needed. Then ac died and the need for the classic tank vanished from the game. Recently changes have been made to the game that have made some shields viable again. Large and tower shields add to prr/mrr of many builds now and with enhancements add great advantages to pally and vanguard fighters builds. At the same time bucklers that were worthless now give swash builds massive advantage.

Then you look at small shields. Just what are they good for? Several named small shields have been made however, do they get used? Anyone looking for prr/mrr will use heavy/large or a tower shield. The only class that uses smaller shields is swash and they use bucklers exclusively.

I have been wondering recently why they are in the game or if there was a way to make them at least somewhat useful.

Currently only swash swf can use a shield and get the swf bonus if this bonus was extended to small shields it would help and other . I would not advocate getting the full swash bonus for using a small shield, but a portion of it or possibly just swf without swash.

Another possibility would be adding enhancements to lines that depend on evasion/saves for defense the ability to use swf not swash, this could be easily added to any line.

If something is not added to make the small shield useful even for a nich build what is the point of the thing?

Buckler's are very useful if you're swashbuckling. Some nice items (CC lvl 24 buckler, or the buckler from 3BC) have a lot of nice stats, and if you have shield mastery (and imp shield mastery), your SWF style can be quite deadly.

That's the only time I could find small shields useful.

[Dragavon]

Buckler's are very useful if you're swashbuckling. Some nice items (CC lvl 24 buckler, or the buckler from 3BC) have a lot of nice stats, and if you have shield mastery (and imp shield mastery), your SWF style can be quite deadly.

That's the only time I could find small shields useful.

I suggest you read OP.........

[Enoach]

As you have noted Heavy & Tower Shields offer the most benefit for PRR/MRR

Light & Buckler do offer a smaller bonus.

What are the advantages of Light Shields & Bucklers besides swashbuckling and single weapon fighting

These shields can be used in conjunction to Evasion (Update 23). This allows builds that rely on other sources of PRR/MRR other than their Armor, to add an additional source of PRR/MRR in the form of a shield. Not to wax nostalgic but back in the early days most players carried a shield of some type. This was used in places where "walls" were setup allowing the caster types a chance to nuke without being hit - STK and Stormcleave Outpost it was common to see this type of strategy as a player with a DR weapon was rare.

The other advantage is it has less ACP then the Heavy and Tower shield. So for these types of builds they can avoid the penalty and even the Double penalty that can occur on some skills.


Now in PnP the advantage of the buckler was that you could wear one while wielding a Two Handed Weapon or while duel wielding (with an attack penalty). Now while there might be a straight forward way of allowing bucklers on two handed weapons since they allow runearms with crossbows, I don't see a straight forward way of allowing it for TWF.

But outside of having a shield on an evasion build to take advantage of PRR/MRR without losing the benefits of evasion, the large and tower shield are usually the better choices as you have already noted.

[Nandos]

I was hoping the Armorer skill in Bard Warchanter was modified to allow small shield use with no arcane spell failure. A Dwarf Warchanter in scale mail, using a small shield and a battle or Dwarven axe just seems right.

[FranOhmsford]

I was hoping the Armorer skill in Bard Warchanter was modified to allow small shield use with no arcane spell failure. A Dwarf Warchanter in scale mail, using a small shield and a battle or Dwarven axe just seems right.

That's actually a really good idea!

/Signed.

[BigErkyKid]

Then you look at small shields. Just what are they good for? Several named small shields have been made however, do they get used? Anyone looking for prr/mrr will use heavy/large or a tower shield. The only class that uses smaller shields is swash and they use bucklers exclusively.

Nothing. They are useless, the same as a lot of the other shields in the game.

Why do they keep adding items that never get used?

Designing things like the crab(p) shield from ToEE takes time and yet it is a worthless piece of junk.

Fake variety of items is not true variety, you know? The game is moving fast towards a streamlined version of DnD. If that's by design, then ALL areas of design need to be consistently moving in the same direction. Otherwise it is just embarrassing.

[Eth]

Just as a reminder, the important stuff regarding shields from the U23 release notes:

1.
Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR:
- Buckler: None
- Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
- Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
- Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

2.
Characters who are proficient with shields can now use larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex Saving Throw. Instead of using your Reflex Saving Throw to mitigate the damage, you can deflect the damage off of your shield. Physical and Magical Resistance Rating multipliers against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex Saving Throw are as follows:
- Buckler: No additional mitigation
- Light Shield: No additional Mitigation
- Heavy Shield: 2.0
- Tower Shield: 2.0

3.
Evasion will no longer function for characters who have Heavy and Tower Shields equipped.

These shields can be used in conjunction to Evasion (Update 23).

And we have a winner! This is exactly what small shields are good for. /thread

[FranOhmsford]

Nothing. They are useless, the same as a lot of the other shields in the game.

Why do they keep adding items that never get used?

Designing things like the crab(p) shield from ToEE takes time and yet it is a worthless piece of junk.

Fake variety of items is not true variety, you know? The game is moving fast towards a streamlined version of DnD. If that's by design, then ALL areas of design need to be consistently moving in the same direction. Otherwise it is just embarrassing.

The problem is that pretty much every build that can use a Small Shield can choose a better option {Large Shield or Buckler} with little extra work {Not even requiring a feat slot!}.

Bucklers were pretty much useless for like 8 years and have only recently supplanted Small Shields for those Light Armour users who actually used a Shield!

Small Shields weren't exactly in common use before Bucklers got the massive boost that Swashbuckler/SWF gave them BUT are now almost completely pointless!

I'm not really sure how the Devs can boost the Small Shield though and perhaps it should go the way of Studded/Padded/Brigandine/Banded Mail and Sprint Mail - Simply change all named Small Shields to Bucklers or Large Shields depending on what Class/Build said Shield is aimed at.
- http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Horsesh...eld_(Level_26) for instance could be recoded as a Large Shield.
- http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shield_...ing_(Level_26) likewise.
E-Orchard is ridiculous about Shields - TWO Bucklers and TWO Small Shields!
Recode http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Silver_Lining as a Buckler
Recode http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Falling_Darkness as a Tower Shield
Recode http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Emerald_Twilight as a Buckler
Recode this worthless piece of trash http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Rising_Light as a Large Shield. {Might be worthwhile as a Cleric Shield - MIGHT BE!}.

It's not like DDO needs 4 different Shield types anyway - Buckler, Large Shield and Tower Shield cover all the bases!

[FranOhmsford]

And we have a winner! This is exactly what small shields are good for. /thread

So can a Buckler!

And Evasion builds that will actually USE a Shield at all will gain more from a Buckler anyway {5 PRR/MRR is nice but not enough to make the difference up!}.

NONE of the Rogue Trees are set up for Shield Use - Assassin is TWF, Acrobat is THF, Mech is Ranged!
Monk - Lol!
Arti - Lol!
Druid - Can use Large Shields or Bucklers {so long as they're made of Wood!}.
FvS - Can use Large Shields or Bucklers
Warlock/Wizard/Sorc - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skyvault_Shield for when you want to turtle up!
Cleric/Barb - If they want to go S+B they're gonna take Fighter Levels and use a Tower Shield!
Paladin - Large Shield {Tower if they take a Fighter Level!}
Fighter - Tower!

That pretty much just leaves Bard and oh yeah...SWASHBUCKLER!

[Eth]

So can a Buckler!

And Evasion builds that will actually USE a Shield at all will gain more from a Buckler anyway {5 PRR/MRR is nice but not enough to make the difference up!}.

NONE of the Rogue Trees are set up for Shield Use - Assassin is TWF, Acrobat is THF, Mech is Ranged!
Monk - Lol!
Arti - Lol!
Druid - Can use Large Shields or Bucklers {so long as they're made of Wood!}.
FvS - Can use Large Shields or Bucklers
Warlock/Wizard/Sorc - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skyvault_Shield for when you want to turtle up!
Cleric/Barb - If they want to go S+B they're gonna take Fighter Levels and use a Tower Shield!
Paladin - Large Shield {Tower if they take a Fighter Level!}
Fighter - Tower!

That pretty much just leaves Bard and oh yeah...SWASHBUCKLER!

Getting 5PRR/MRR for free is enough reason to use it over a buckler! Why would you use a buckler if you can chose between the two and you are not swashbuckling?

Your examples completely miss the point! It's almost as if you want to pretend that multiclassing doesn't exist!
Obviously a (good) S/B build will always be a build with either fighter or paladin levels!
Now if you want to add evasion on that S/B toon you have the options of a monk, ranger or rogue split or you can run in shadowdancer!

Just because a build archetype (like S/B with evasion) isn't commonly used, there is no reason items that suit such a build don't need to exist!
With that argumentation 98% of items in DDO wouldn't need to exist!

[mezzorco]

The only kind of builds the small shield is good for is for tanks that splashed for evasion with no bard levels.

An example is a 18/2 pala rogue vanguard, in light armor. Small shields do more damage and provide more protection than bucklers, and you can still benefit from evasion.

It goes without saying that such a build would be way more stronger as a pure paladin in heavy armor and master touched tower shield.


EDIT: also, I could see a use for small shields when a ranger needs to turtle up, so he could still benefit from evasion. This is not to say that you should fight using a small shield, but you could just equip one before passing through a trap

[BigErkyKid]

Getting 5PRR/MRR for free is enough reason to use it over a buckler! Why would you use a buckler if you can chose between the two and you are not swashbuckling?

Your examples completely miss the point! It's almost as if you want to pretend that multiclassing doesn't exist!
Obviously a (good) S/B build will always be a build with either fighter or paladin levels!
Now if you want to add evasion on that S/B toon you have the options of a monk, ranger or rogue split or you can run in shadowdancer!

Just because a build archetype (like S/B with evasion) isn't commonly used, there is no reason items that suit such a build don't need to exist!
With that argumentation 98% of items in DDO wouldn't need to exist!

Show us a decent build that uses often small shields ????

[LightBear]

Arcane Spell Failure
Dex cap to AC
Not spending a feat

[Eth]

Show us a decent build that uses often small shields ????

1. Take a vanguard build
2. Add evasion by multiclassing
3. replace your shield with a small shield
4. replace your armor with light armor

That was hard, yo.

[Enoach]

Arcane Spell Failure
Dex cap to AC
Not spending a feat

Just a note, Buckler, Small and Large Shields do not contribute to Max Dex Bonus. Only the Tower shield limits this. So I agree if the only limiting factor is MDB then a Large Shield would probably be the better choice. But as soon as Evasion comes into play and the Buckler & Small Shield will be the choice. I believe the small shield adds more as long as the Bard Swashbuckler is not also part of the build.

I believe Shield Proficiency is still needed for Buckler and Small Shields - This is auto-granted to several classes so is usually already there for a S&B build

Show us a decent build that uses often small shields ????

1. Take a vanguard build
2. Add evasion by multiclassing
3. replace your shield with a small shield
4. replace your armor with light armor

That was hard, yo.

Now as a point and I realize some will consider it an Off-Destiny, but I've had loads of fun in Shadowdancer on a Vanguard focused Pure Paladin. I actually prefer it to LD (My playstyle). Leveraging shadow form and other defenses along with Evasion (Final Core) it makes EE Crucible a snap coupling the high saves of a paladin with the ability to run through traps, avoid reflex spells and not worry so much about missteps on the swim. But being S&B I still need a smaller shield. So while this is not an example of a build that always uses a small shield, it is an example of where it can be used.

[Grailhawk]

At low levels a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock with a Mithirl Small Shield (I have a few BTA that pass around and they do still dorp in game Waterworks end reward is a good place to farm for them) Cannith Crafted to have an useful spell lore is not a bad choice as it adds defense and they can just master touch to get the proficiency.

IMO it would be a good idea for the devs to take a look at small shields and make them the kind of DPS for shields Tower and Large shields are for defense but small shields are for are for bashing. Which would even create proper balance more dps less defense...

[Coyopa]

The problem is that pretty much every build that can use a Small Shield can choose a better option {Large Shield or Buckler} with little extra work {Not even requiring a feat slot!}.

Bucklers were pretty much useless for like 8 years and have only recently supplanted Small Shields for those Light Armour users who actually used a Shield!

Small Shields weren't exactly in common use before Bucklers got the massive boost that Swashbuckler/SWF gave them BUT are now almost completely pointless!

I'm not really sure how the Devs can boost the Small Shield though and perhaps it should go the way of Studded/Padded/Brigandine/Banded Mail and Sprint Mail - Simply change all named Small Shields to Bucklers or Large Shields depending on what Class/Build said Shield is aimed at.
- http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Horsesh...eld_(Level_26) for instance could be recoded as a Large Shield.
- http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shield_...ing_(Level_26) likewise.
E-Orchard is ridiculous about Shields - TWO Bucklers and TWO Small Shields!
Recode http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Silver_Lining as a Buckler
Recode http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Falling_Darkness as a Tower Shield
Recode http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Emerald_Twilight as a Buckler
Recode this worthless piece of trash http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Rising_Light as a Large Shield. {Might be worthwhile as a Cleric Shield - MIGHT BE!}.

It's not like DDO needs 4 different Shield types anyway - Buckler, Large Shield and Tower Shield cover all the bases!

OK. I have to actually, sincerely thank you for posting those links. I just converted my 24 cleric to a 24 paladin and I've been trying to decide what shield to work on getting for her. I actually like The Rising Light. However, I'm going to go for Emerald Twilight. So, actually thanks! That's going to work great with my build.

[BigErkyKid]

1. Take a vanguard build
2. Add evasion by multiclassing
3. replace your shield with a small shield
4. replace your armor with light armor

That was hard, yo.

And that's a good idea for general questing?

You gain evasion and lose prr and mrr, and a ton of dps via the capstone and the crappy shield bashes you would get.

Who needs evasion nowadays anyway?

No, let's face it. Small shields, along with a lot of other options on the game are completely dominated by other choices . They are there providing an illusion of diversity and apparently still sucking up creative resources from the devs that every update insist on giving us some useless items in the general mix.

Open up the game a bit folks, give us more choices and niche items as opposed to end of it all power items and weapons.

[FranOhmsford]

OK. I have to actually, sincerely thank you for posting those links. I just converted my 24 cleric to a 24 paladin and I've been trying to decide what shield to work on getting for her. I actually like The Rising Light. However, I'm going to go for Emerald Twilight. So, actually thanks! That's going to work great with my build.

I was wondering why you'd pick a Small Shield for a Lvl 24 Pure Paladin - THEN I checked the wiki and it seems this - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bulwark...ist_(Level_25) - is the ONLY Lvl 25+ Named Large Shield in the game!